Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Drexel]

Pit's arrows being very easy to control makes Greninja have more trouble both returning to the stage due to the arrows trying to intercept him and potentially putting him in a bad position, and also they help Pit cover himself when returning to the stage and make it harder to gimp him.

Dark Pit's arrows go pretty much straight and as such are much less versatile in what they do. I do think Dark Pit's arrows not being capable of much movement hurts him significantly since it makes it easier for Greninja to both return to the stage and also gimp him.

Thank you for explaining my case a little better than I did.

 

[Spirst]

Liberation is a silly guy and forgot to update the MU thread for this week so the heroic Spirst is tasked with saving you all from disarray.

Week 8 has begun. This week, we'll be covering the male/female Marths (Lucina/Marth respectively), Shulk, and Mii Swordfighter (who I suspect will have little discussion because who even uses that character?).

 

[Jaguar360]

This is going to be pure theory on Swordfighter, but I'm gonna say that Greninja is definitely in the advantage on this matchup. Greninja is faster, has a more versatile Shuriken (not sure if uncharge WS is faster than Shuriken of Light...I need to test that), and has more useful specials as a whole. Swordfighter does have the advantage of having access to two different projectiles though, so he might outcamp Greninja if he has both Chakram and Shuriken. Reversal Slash can also be a factor since that can limit Greninja's use of fully charged Water Shurikens.

Hydro Pump should easily gimp any of the three recovery specials that Swordfighter has while Swordfighter can't gimp Greninja easily, even with his amazing d-air (Reversal Slash might be relevant...that also needs testing). It also seems like it would be really effective onstage for Greninja to space with and take on bits of chip damage.

Greninja's mobility far outclasses the Swordfighter's both on the ground and in the air. He jumps higher, runs faster, has better air speed and can move around with ease using Hydro Pump. Their attack speeds are pretty comparable, though I think that Greninja's jab, dash attack and b-air give him a slight edge.

Mii Swordfighter's combos are decent enough and (s)he gets followups off of d-throw, but Greninja has the better combo game so far. As for killing, Greninja has more reliable options thanks to U-smash, f-air, f-smash and Shadow Sneak being good on top of having excellent edgeuarding tools against Swordfighter. Swordfighter has kill power, but his best reliable options against Greninja are u-smash, u-air and d-smash since f-smash is a bit slow and he can't rely on d-air to gimp. Greninja also has u-throw to kill when things get rough, while Swordfighter has no such option.

Looking from a theoretical perspective, Greninja definitely wins. I'll say 60:40 in ninja's favor for now, though I think a 70:30 matchup would be plausible. While I highly doubt that I'll be able to fight a Mii Swordfighter or use my own Swordfighter against a person this week, I'm going to do some testing in Training mode and do some practice matches for both sides against the CPU to get a better concept. Not the most reliable source, but the best I can do for now.

 

[Shack]

I am still struggling a lot against Pit's DAir and NAir. He is not very easy to UAir juggle unless the other player gets careless. Between Pit's jump mobility and fast fall DAir, it's very hard to predict where he will be. The only option seems to be is block and hope he uses a DAir or uses all of his jumps.

I honestly am leaning towards the match up being in Pits favor since he has more kill moves, out ranges, and most of his aerials wall out Greninja's. Pit also has a lot of air mobility which means he is free to weave in and out with aerials where Greninja has to commit more to his aerial momentum. Greninja has to really slow things down and try to bait out a lot of whiffs which seems counter intuitive on such a fast character, but maybe I should watch some Sonic videos to get a better idea on how they use their speed.

I think it's at least 40:60 Greninjait since Pit seems to have the tools to stop Greninja's current meta (DAir beats everything except Hydro Pump/Block, 2 reflects, better air movement, more range, more ko moves, ko off grab).

Seriously, if anyone has an idea on how to stop DAirs, please let me know.

 

[CHOMPY]

Were also disccusing it on this topic as well, so we can both get a linked confirmation on how both sides feel about the matchup. That way, we are all on the same page!

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-greninja.391716/

 

[Funkermonster]

During the time of the 3DS, I used to play Lucina a lot as my tertiary and a little bit after Wii U too. I now play Megaman much more than her, but I thought I'd share my own little insight against her: I think this matchup leans towards Greninja's favor, at least 60:40. In all honesty Lucina is kind of a bad character imo and essentially being a downgraded version of Marth (with little compensation for the downgrades), I think she suffers in quite a lot of matchups and this is one of them.

• Her recovery is terrible (in a game where like more than have the cast has an at least decent recovery). Her Dolphin Slash gives a rather poor horizontal distance and doesn't sweetspot the ledge at all, her Shield Breaker gives more horizontal distance but it can risk her dropping below the stage and is not safe. Unfortunately for her, Lucina is plagued with one of those recoveries where if you hit her out of her double jump, she is very unlikely to make it back to the stage, and we can gimp her with Bair rather nicely (Hydro Pump might work too, but not sure due to the nerf in 1.0.4). Its not hard to gimp her around like 60% if you can get her offstage. She can counter if she anticipates you attacking though, so be aware of that.
• She does not have a projectile, or any great defense against them like a reflector. IN spite of the increased lag to shruikens, they can still be used to make her come to you.
• We all know Greninja has plenty of great combo options as seen in the Combo Thread. Not exactly a weakness for her, but Lucina's combo potential is quite limited in comparison and she doesn't have a lot of options besides Dancing Blade, Dthrow > Uair (which stops working I believe at around 20%), and Falling Uair > Bair/Fair > Dair. That said, she's not really much of a combo character, she's more the type to patiently build damage weaving in and out with pokes.
• One of her biggest weak points, imo, is her general lack of safe moves. Aside from Dtilt, Shield Breaker, or a well spaced Nair or Fair; nearly everything this girl has is very unsafe on shield, and her attacks are among the most punishable in the game. Her grab is decent, but she doesn't really have a good set of throws that reliably combo into anything nor have any great kill power. When playing as her, you really have to be perfect at spacing to stay safe from being punished, and thanks to her subpar recovery she can't really afford this kind of punishment, a few mistakes she makes could cost her the game. Because she does not have Marth's sourspots, her moves are 2-3 frames less safe on shield than his, and even though she has a respectable punish game herself (especially with her tilts), a lot of her own moves are fairly risky to use.
• She has a lot of trouble killing. Her only kill moves are basically her smash attacks, shield breaker, counter, Dair spiking, and Fair gimps; the latter of which doesn't really work on us all that well because our Hydro Pump helps us recover too easily for us to be gimped, and the others are all dangerous and they don't even kill until like 110%.

I gotta quit typing for now and I'll finish up later, but for now I'll say this: Losing the tipper and having lower shieldstun make her much less threatening than her great grandfather. She has a lot of trouble KOing us while not being too difficult to KO herself.

 

[Berserker.]

One of our Shulk buddies @ spiderfreak1011 wrote an insanely big write up on the match up

Well, since this is where we're going to talk about the match up, i guess i'll start off with what i know. What i'm about to say is what i've gathered from many Greninja encounters and mostly from my recent encounter from a great Greninja (goes by name "Deadly Shoc") who really knew how to pressure and react fast, and space me out. I'm gonna talk about dealing with this match up in 2 sections, one on how to edge guard/deal with him off stage, and the other for how to deal with his specials and smash attacks.

When it comes to edge guarding Greninja, this is what will typically happen when you get him off stage and this situation is now possible. Depending on the skill/position of the Greninja, he'll either:

A) While coming in from High/Lined up with the edge, they may use Shadow Sneak mid air to recover on the stage and try to reach the ledge in order to get on stage a good distance away from the edge or keep you from edge guarding them
B) Fast fall and move horizontally in the air, then use Hydro Pump to reach the ledge

If they go with A, something you should know is that should they happen to line up the attack with the Ledge, and you're at the ledge, they'll hit you (this is easy to shield of course), and be free to hydropump directly upwards onto the ledge (unless you can stage spike them, which doesn't have much of a long enough time frame to pull off even if you shield the attack and they instantly use their Up Special. You can use Vision to counter it if you time it right, but you'll want to not use forward counter, because then it will completely miss due to its hitbox being behind Shulk, though i've never pulled this option off before. They could also use the attack high enough in the air and teleport past the ledge at the height in the air that they used the attack and fall down onto the stage, and if you're quick enough, you can punish them for this, depending on how far they teleported.
For Option B, typically you can block this with Fair/Nair (or spike them), but it's risky with Greninja's Up Special as his is well known for being great for pushing opponents off stage when they try to recover and lead to a stock loss, so when trying to do this, you'll definitely want Monado Jump activated to improve your chances of recovering should you whiff/mess up the edge guarding attempt.

Now for battling him in general. From my experiences, i find it best to stick with Monado Jump and Speed for most of the match, a good Greninja can utilize their speed over Shulk and basically null Monado Buster's buff by pressuring Shulk enough so he can't land a hit/counter the assault. With Jump and Speed always active, Shulk has an easier/better time of keeping up with him and combating him effectively.

Greninja's grabs are pretty useful and are great for being pivoted, a useful follow up combo that Greninja's tend to use is U-throw into Uair, so be prepared for that. His tilts are ok, but not really much to worry about honestly. His aerials are also good, Uair is like Sheik's as it hits multiple times, Back Air is pretty fast and does 3 hits, Nair is...kind of weird IMO, doesn't do much damage and is a bit hard to land in my experience using Greninja, Dair is a stall and fall and unlike Toon Link's which has a windbox that you need to shield in order to avoid it and punish, it has no windbox which makes it easier to punish, although it like Erico says, it has to be Forward Countered in order to hit as Greninja bounces off Shulk should he land the hit. Last is Fair, which is pretty strong and his best attack for KOing in the air, it comes out a bit slow, but a good Greninja will be able to time it right, and it can be deadly.

His Smash attacks are good, D-Smash is good for punishing rolls, F-Smash has a good amount of range given that it's a "Water Sword", and U-Smash basically forms an arc around Greninja from above and to the sides, the most damage dealt from the top of the arc. His specials are different from what you'd face from alot of the roster. His U-special, Hydro Pump, can use be used on the ground in a left to right direction to try to blow you off stage, but if you stick with Speed/Jump to avoid/minimize it's effects, you shouldn't have to worry about it. Plus it has a pretty short range when used like that anyway. Water Shuriken (Neutral Special) isn't that hard to dodge/block, and it can't be saved which is good for us, but i wouldn't recommend just standing there and shielding a fully charged one, since Greninja can take the opportunity to grab you while you're shielding as you're left defenseless from blocking the attack. Also, like Erico said above me, you can take the opportunity while the attack charges to jump over Greninja and use Back Slash's initial jump to evade the attack and land the hit.
Shadow Sneak can be hard to see coming on dark stages, or if used when Greninja's right next to you, but more often than not, Greninja's will use it as an approaching option. Keep in mind, when they use this attack they always Walk when aiming it and cannot dash, so that can be a give away. I wouldn't recommend using Vision and just Shield the attack and follow up with a punish, since it's hard to tell when the Greninja will use the attack, and what direction it'll come from (Greninja can still hit you with the attack if they appear behind you, it does a different animation to attack if this happens and it will hit you), so you can easily mistime the attack or whiff. Last is Greninja's counter, which basically has more or less the same animation like Lucario's, but with Greninja, the Counter attack can come from 3 directions: Left, Right, or from Above (though this one isn't that safe). Since it's like Lucario's, the counter isn't instant nor traps you so you can't escape the attack like the Swordsmen, so it's easy enough to shield or sidestep. I do not know what affects the damage output of this counter though.

My advice is to basically stick with your M-Artes that improve your manueverability (AKA Jump and Speed) to keep up with Greninja's speed and attacks and not be overwhelmed. Shield is also good for surviving at higher percents, Smash is still good for when Greninja's at high percents and his KO moves aren't all that fast or easy to land, at least not outright/immediately. I would by wary of using Vision, as alot of Greninja's specials are hard to land counter with, mostly use it against his Smash attacks/tilts, and try to take advantage of your range to keep Greninja from getting in too close and pressuring you. Also, when trying to edge guard, definitely use Jump so you have a better chance of recovering should you get blasted with Hydro Pump, plus the speed/manuevarability is useful for landing off screen KOs before the enemy can use their recovery moves.

We all concluded 50/50 after this

 

[FullMoon]

I've fought a lot of Shulk in Anther's Ladder and 50/50 feels very right for this MU. What was said above is right for the most part, except for a couple of things

His tilts are ok, but not really much to worry about honestly

D-tilt -> Up-Smash is a kill setup and so is very much something to worry about. Up-Tilt can also combo into Up-Smash at early percentages and later can combo into Up-Air for longer than Up-Throw, I believe.

Last is Greninja's counter, which basically has more or less the same animation like Lucario's, but with Greninja, the Counter attack can come from 3 directions: Left, Right, or from Above (though this one isn't that safe)

It can come up in any diagonal direction as well as upwards, it's not that important of a detail but I just felt like pointing it out.

Other than that, I don't think there much more to add to that honestly. A lot of the MU for us depends on what Art Shulk currently has up. So it's pretty much a battle where one character has to adapt to the other constantly.

 

[adamlon1]

The Greninja Marth Matchup is quite the odd one as Greninja can cover quite alot of options with his water shuriken and shadow sneak. Since full charged water shuriken is a multi hit attack Marth can't counter the shuriken so Marth has to abuse the platforms to gain the advantage on Greninja when on the stage however when Marth gets an edgeguard it's quite easy for Greninja to just shadow sneak Marth when he's near or on the ledge but a good Marth will expect that and go for a counter or if he is on stage he will space himself and go for a down tilt. Greninja's speed in both the air and on ground out prioritize Marth's so it's quite easy for greninja to get a juggle especially since Marth's weight is quite a good weight for combos but juggling I'm not too sure about that one. Marth's juggle game is quite good against Greninja (Marth's juggle game is good against everyone up tilt and up air are great) as Marth can consistently up air and up tilt for days on end but with Greninja's fall speed and also jump height it's going to be tough to keep the juggle in for more than 3 or 4 hits. I would rate this Matchup a sold 55/45 in Greninja's favor PS. Greninja's counter is irrelevant to this matchup and I will probably get this matchup wrong knowing my past comments on Marth matchups.

 

[Langston777]

nair whiffs on ground unless you're frame perfect and greninja falls out of dancing blade and can shield the 4th hit at low %'s

i think the fact that greninja shuts down 2 of marths best tools without hitting a button makes this rather challenging for marth

 

[FullMoon]

I don't have too much experience with Marth, so I'm going to do my analysis based on my impressions based on what experience I do have.

Neutral: Greninja has shurikens, which already force Marth to approach, and his great dash grab to make use of in neutral to punish the lag on Marth's moves. I've heard that Marth has quite a bit of landing lag on his aerials so that gives Greninja a lot of opportunities for grabbing him. Both Greninja and Marth have rather laggy Smash attacks, so Marth likely would have to rely on his aerials to get through Greninja, as far as I know I think a retreating F-Air is safe on block for Marth, Greninja also has a safe F-Air and B-Air with proper spacing. Overall, I think Greninja has a small advantage in the neutral due to shurikens making Marth go after him and he being quite able to punish any lag on his moves. Tippers are very intimidating though and Marth does have good range on his moves to space us out and be safe to pressure us.

Advantage: Both characters can juggle each other, however Greninja has superior mobility which can make it harder for Marth to get away from him, though usage of Counter can help him get the frog away, though if the counter is baited he's going to get punished hard for it. I think Marth would have some trouble keeping Greninja in the air too due to his fall speed as well.

Disadvantage: Greninja can really chase Marth around, so he has to rely on either a well spaced aerial or counter to get him out of disadvantage, Greninja can make use of Hydro Pump to either push Marth away or get some distance from Marth and reset back to neutral, though there's a small delay before Greninja actually starts moving again which means Marth can still get a hit if he's fast enough. Greninja also has his own counter that I believe lasts longer than Marth's and even if it misses it makes him go pretty far.

Edgeguarding: Marth has more trouble edgeguarding Greninja because of Shadow Sneak allowing him to go through him if he jumps offstage and maybe even hitting him in the process. Greninja can gimp Marth pretty well with a b-air and since Marth's recovery is not all that good it usually results in him falling to oblivion. Greninja's superior recovery with plenty of mix-ups to it can make preventing him from recovery really hard.

One thing to keep in mind is that Marth's tippers are very dangerous and can result in much earlier kills if Greninja gets careless and I believe Marth outranges us with his sword which can make it tough to go after him when proper spacing is done and so he can pressure Greninja pretty well, so we need to be pacient with him in order to find a good chance to attack. Shurikens can do a good job at disrupting Marth some and dash grab is a great way to punish him for any mistakes.

I think it's 55:45 in our favor. Marth has tippers which provide him with a lot of power and he also has superior range with his moves and is able to pressure us well. Greninja has shurikens to force Marth to go after him and also to disrupt him from time to time, our superior mobility and Hydro Pump makes it harder for Marth to escape from us and to keep us in the disadvantage and when it comes to edgeguarding, Greninja has an easier time with gimps.

Both parties need to be careful due to Marth's tippers and Greninja's mobility, but I think Greninja has the advantage due to getting more consistent reward since tippers aren't going to happen all the time no matter how good the Marth player is, plus he can edgeguard Marth with a lot more ease due to his gimpable recovery, while Marth will struggle thanks to Shadow Sneak and Hydro Pump mix-ups.

I could be totally wrong though and I'll be sad if I am because I just spent so long writing all this.

 

[Coffee™]

Love you 4 writing it up like this ^ XD

Also as far as that Shulk write up goes. it doesn't really explain much about the matchup aside from the fact that Shulk prefers to be in Jump and Speed form. Everything else is just a generalization of Greninja's playstyle.

In addition, Shulk, Marth and Lucina all lose to Greninja in CQC, he also juggles all of them relatively easily as well. Water Shuriken forcing them to approach while simultaneously stuffing a lot of their approaches is a huge pain too. Shulk's Speed form is going to be the go to here for him. Jump is decent when Greninja is offstage or in a disadvantaged state but in neutral it really isn't a big deal and Greninja has the tools to avoid sitting in disadvantage for too long against these characters.

Hydro Pump is also amazing against their recoveries.

I don't see any of these three being that close to even honestly.

 

[Jaguar360]

After spending 2-3 hours last night testing the Mii Swordfighter matchup, I feel that I've underestimated Mii Swordfighter a bit and that the matchup is more along the lines of 55:45 in Greninja's favor. This is mainly from experimenting in Training mode and doing CPU vs matches with both characters. No human vs. human play is unfortunate, but I still feel that I've gotten a large grasp of the matchup. Testing was mostly done with a 2322 Swordfighter, which I feel is best against Greninja (Hero's Spin may be better than Skyward Slash Dash for the Up-B though). I played as/against another Swordfighter (made to look like Kasumi from Dead or Alive) which had a 2131 set, but I only did a couple matches for both sides each with this.

Swordfighter actually can gimp Greninja pretty well with the right tools. D-air can gimp Greninja successfully at upper mid percents, though (s)he must be careful not to go too deep because of his/her poor recovery options. Reversal Slash is actually effective as well, making Greninja vulnerable if he can't sweetspot the ledge with Hydro Pump. Reflecting Greninja's jump can also be dangerous for him.

Another thing about Swordfighter is his/her kill setups. Swordfighter has a hoo hah (aka d-throw -> u-air) which can kill pretty early and an u-throw -> u-air which is pretty consistent thanks to its low knockback growth. U-tilt -> u-air also works well. His U-smash is also dangerous because of its speed and multi-hit properties and has average kill power for a Smash. F-tilt surprisingly kills well near the ledge and F-smash is strong and not as hard to hit with as I thought (still has to be done on a read most of the time though). F-air and B-air can also kill offstage. Swordfighter gets kills more easily than Greninja does imo, though Swordfighter's poor recovery options should also be acknowledged.

Swordfighter's projectile game is as good as I thought. Shuriken of Light beats Water Shuriken at long range and gets stronger the farther it travels. Chakram is also good since it's moderately controllable, travels quickly when throwing it far or on an angle and can even cancel fully charged Water Shurikens. It is unsafe, however. If Greninja is close enough when it whiffs, it is an easy dash grab, Shadow Sneak or running U-smash. Water Shuriken is still very effective though, even when Chakram and Reversal Slash are taken into consideration. Reversal Slash's endlag makes it not able to completely negate Greninja's shuriken game, even charged shurikens. Shuriken is still effective at spacing, getting chip damage and edgeguarding when fully charged. I do think, however, that Swordfighter has control of the projectile/long distance game for the most part.

I did find some bad things about Swordfighter against Greninja though. His aerials are even slower and less safe than Greninja's are for the most part. N-air is relatively safe and is safely cancelled upon hitting the ground, but it is weak, slow and doesn't have as much range as it appears. F-air and B-air are greatly punishable and D-air is only decent for onstage use. Greninja's f-air and b-air are great against Swordfighter in the air. As mentioned before, Chakram and Reversal Slash have punishable endlag.

Greninja also runs and jumps circles around Swordfighter. This is especially a problem on Battlefield, where Greninja is free to run and jump along the platforms and wait for the time to strike. Greninja also wins in attack speed, as expected, thanks to Jab, Dash attack, SHFF N-air, SH b-air and well-spaced SH f-airs. Greninja's dash grab + his speed and projectiles can potentially overwhelm Mii Swordfighter. Hydro Pump is also still effective both onstage and offstage, though I wasn't really using it at my best last night. Swordfighter's d-tilt is very good in neutral though and can be a bit annoying for ninja.

Speaking of, Swordfighter's less easy to gimp than I suspected, but I did get a few Hydro Gimps during the matches. The CPU Greninja actually Hydro Gimped my Swordfighter at one or two points.

All in all, I still think that Greninja holds an advantage, but it is closer to even than I initially thought. Some other things I noted that may or not be relevant to the matchup:

• I SD'd a lot with both characters. Probably because I was so tired lol since this happened a lot afterwards even when I was done experimenting with these two.
• I got a lot of Substitute kills on Swordfighter. Don't know if this is actually because it's particularly effective against him or if it's just a coincidence.
• That's it, I guess.

I'll try to upload some of the matches I saved before I go to sleep to give a better picture of the matchup, though I'm not sure if people want to see CPU matches.

tl;dr

• Swordfighter U-air links from d-throw, u-throw and u-tilt and is a dangerous killer
• Swordfighter has better kill power in general
• Both are good at gimping; Swordfighter may be better at this
• Greninja wins in neutral most of the time thanks to his movement, attack speed, WS and dash grab
• Mii Swordifghter's projectile game is slightly better, but Greninja's is still solid in its own right
• Swordfighter's laggy, slow and easily punished
• Greninja has a better air game

 

[spiderfreak1011]

One of our Shulk buddies @ spiderfreak1011 wrote an insanely big write up on the match up

We all concluded 50/50 after this

Lol, nice to be mentioned. XD

I've fought a lot of Shulk in Anther's Ladder and 50/50 feels very right for this MU. What was said above is right for the most part, except for a couple of things



D-tilt -> Up-Smash is a kill setup and so is very much something to worry about. Up-Tilt can also combo into Up-Smash at early percentages and later can combo into Up-Air for longer than Up-Throw, I believe.



It can come up in any diagonal direction as well as upwards, it's not that important of a detail but I just felt like pointing it out.

Other than that, I don't think there much more to add to that honestly. A lot of the MU for us depends on what Art Shulk currently has up. So it's pretty much a battle where one character has to adapt to the other constantly.

Love you 4 writing it up like this ^ XD

Also as far as that Shulk write up goes. it doesn't really explain much about the matchup aside from the fact that Shulk prefers to be in Jump and Speed form. Everything else is just a generalization of Greninja's playstyle.

In addition, Shulk, Marth and Lucina all lose to Greninja in CQC, he also juggles all of them relatively easily as well. Water Shuriken forcing them to approach while simultaneously stuffing a lot of their approaches is a huge pain too. Shulk's Speed form is going to be the go to here for him. Jump is decent when Greninja is offstage or in a disadvantaged state but in neutral it really isn't a big deal and Greninja has the tools to avoid sitting in disadvantage for too long against these characters.

Hydro Pump is also amazing against their recoveries.

I don't see any of these three being that close to even honestly.

Sorry for being general concerning Shulk, i wrote this way back when i was still not as well versed and knowledgable of the Greninja MU. I probably will try to come back here later and add on more things about the match up that i've learned during my many Shulk/Greninja battles with @ Spirst . I definitely have a better grasp on how Greninja fights and what he can do.

 

[Shack]

I know we're not on Pit anymore, but I just wanted to add some info based off my games last night with my friend. I also have some Samus info if anyone is interested.

Greninja seems to have some trouble on big stages because of the lack of kill options unless already on the edge. I find myself doing a lot better on Smashville vs Final Destination. Part of it could also be that bigger stages give Pit more room to evade with.

Greninjas bair is too good against Pits recovery and a really good option when he in the air period. If Pit is directly above Greninja, Greninja has the option to uair or bait out a move so he can bair.

Everything Greninja does is easily punishable on whiff/shield outside of jab and dtilt.

I started winning a lot more when I focused on baiting out Pits moves, they actually have some decent recovery time and are easy to punish with a running grab. If I tried to dictate the match with pure aggression, I found myself eating a random fsmash, side b, or aerial since they all have some good range and hit boxes.

I believe a good Pit will use side b to punish often. If Pit is in mid range, anytime Greninja throws a shuriken, charges a smash or uses a whiffed aerial, that should be an easy side b so keep that in mind.

I still think Pit has a slight favor in the matchup since he does have a lot of tools that shut down Greninja's pokes and approaches. Greninja has to use a lot of speed and constantly move around and rely on punishing.

 

[Random4811]

Greninja's neutral game is going to overpower Marth's heavily, but Marth's air game is better than Greninja's IMO.
I think Greninja has the advantage though

 

[Macchiato]

Greninja has the advantage, we have to approach. It's pretty hard to gimp greninja because of shadow sneak mixups. However Greninja can easily gimp us with hydro pump. Marth doesn't have that many combos, Greninja can combo us really well too. We do outrange him making it hard to get in. We also kill way earlier.

I think the score is 55-45 Greninja

 

[Gunla]

Week 10 Begins with Dedede, DK, Wario and Bowser.

Weeks 11-13 have been plotted out as well; for details, check the OP.

 

[David Galanos]

Oh man, the bigger characters and Wario. I have experience with Wario and DeDeDe but I honestly don't know much to say. All I know is I personally get destroyed by Warios bite, and reflecting DeDeDe's Gordos with shuriken is good, but sometimes they get a fast one on me and i can't react

 

[Gunla]

And for clarification, the substitute is supposed to be Mewtwo, but if Mewtwo isn't out by then (March 16th) I might pull out another character again.

 

[David Galanos]

And for clarification, the substitute is supposed to be Mewtwo, but if Mewtwo isn't out by then (March 16th) I might pull out another character again.

Mewtwo is supposed to be out by then? For the Japan release at least, it's march 31st

 

[Gunla]

March 31st is the deadline for registering your games.

Not sure if it's Mewtwo's real release, though.

 

[Bowserdude]

It's getting pretty close. They really need to announce an official release date.

 

[FullMoon]

So, @Lavani you play Greninja and Dedede is your most played character, so I suppose you would be able to say more about this MU than any of us?

 

[Ludiloco]

Hello Greninja friends, Dedede main coming from the boards. Actually I've been picking up Greninja for a secondary lately, so I have a bit of insight into how the character works and how I feel he does against D3.

I feel the Greninja D3 matchup is pretty much 50:50. While D3 can struggle a lot with the raw speed and combo ability of Greninja, I feel Greninja can really struggle to get in against the spacing tool that is the hammer. Also, D3 is VERY heavy and won't be dying to anything but a fair edge-guard or sweet-spotted up smash anytime soon. On the flip side, D3 can kill Greninja early with just about anything. However, Greninja's agility and fast aerials can easily prevent D3 from landing a kill move.

From the D3 side of things, keeping the frog out with jabs and f-tilts is the name of the game, as well as punishing whiffed aerials and shield attacks. Gordos are nice at mid range, but since even the itty bitty water shuriken can reflect them it's pretty pointless to throw them out from across the stage. Be wary of ledge traps with Gordos (if you roll past it we get a free down smash), just waiting is often the best solution. Being above Dedede is a death sentence, as up air out-prioritizes everything you can do to come down on him. Be patient, wait for him to throw it out, then land and reset to neutral.

Now that you know what NOT to do, the best way to beat D3 is to make him play your game. You have a significant advantage in the neutral game, and if you can force D3 to go in for grabs and KOs that's your best opportunity to attack. Your nair/bair/u-air can completely ruin a D3 player's day, and don't be afraid to throw out that up smash. Be wary of edge guarding, because D3 is probably one of the harder characters to gimp. I'm pretty sure his up b armor tanks your dair spike, but I haven't seen that tested in a while. Your best bet is to hang out on or near the ledge and threaten him with back air/fair. Dedede almost always recovers low, so don't waste time throwing out shurikens.

I'm sure I've missed some stuff but I'm actually out of time for the moment. Please let me know, I think this is probably one of the most fun matchups coming from the D3 side of things so I'm very interested in more info.

 

[FullMoon]

Hmm, I'm not too sure on it myself. We don't really need to get in much because Greninja's shurikens just plain forces Dedede to come after him while Gordos are easily smacked away. Dedede is forced to approach and since most of his moves are laggy, Greninja can just stay on the defensive when he's close and dash grab when he gets the opportunity. Abusing the lag on Dedede's moves also allows Greninja to punish him with a N-Air or F-Air very easily and due to his size and weight, he can combo him very well.

Dedede does have more immediate power than we do and he also outranges us with the hammer, as well as taking longer to be KO'd than we do, but overall, I feel Dedede struggles a lot more than Greninja in this MU since he tends to leave himself very open, so as long as Greninja is pacient to wait for an opening, Dedede can't really do too much other than try to grab when we're shielding or attempt a shield break. If they get too far away from each other, then Greninja is going to force Dedede to go after him again with shurikens.

So Greninja wins in Neutral, in Advantage he can really make Dedede's life hell with his combos, juggling and chasing him around; in Disadvantage, Dedede can't really do much since he's so slow and Greninja can escape very easily with his tools. Edgeguarding can go both ways, but if Greninja sees that Dedede is trying to leave a Gordo on the ledge, he can just Hydro Pump over it. Greninja can't edgeguard Dedede very well, the best he can hope for is a stage spike with b-air, or if Dedede messes up with his up-b, Hydro Pump him so he falls to his death.

I think this MU is a solid 60:40 in Greninja's favor myself.

 

[Ludiloco]

Like I said, your best opportunity is when D3 has to approach, but really I don't feel we have to either. Dedede is at his best when the opponent is at mid-range, and if we can keep you there that's our best chance to rack up damage and create space.

I agree with you that Dedede loses the projectile war, but the thing is D3 doesn't really have to get as close as you think. Proper D3 play consists of keeping your opponent an f-tilt's distance away. Throwing out quick jabs to disrupt rushes, run away pivot f-tilt, using d-tilt to punish even the tightest windows. If you can keep a Greninja mid range, the lag on shurikens is enough to perfect shield punish and none of Greninja's other attacks reach. Breaking this space is the biggest challenge for Greninja, but if he can he will be successful in the matchup.

Even if Greninja has an advantage, it's only a slight one imo.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Sup from the Bowser boards! Thanks for paging the King of Awesome.

First up, I'd like to explain that Bowser does not have any amazing movement tools outside of his custom side Bs. Everything Bowser does is based on core technology that any character has access to. If you factor in custom side Bs, Bowser can be played at a much higher level.

Greninja has an incredibly fun time dealing with Bowser at most ranges. Many of Greninja's tools allow you to pressure Bowser from various positions without Bowser being able to do much about it. Additionally, Greninja's options once Bowser is knocked out of the neutral are fantastic. Because Greninja has great disjoint and priority on most of his key attacks, Bowser is forced to respect Greninja while coming back to the ground. Being able to Dair off-stage and cut off any recovery is a huge boon, and your Up B edge guarding is in full capacity in this fight. You have very little to fear from a Bowser that plays agro or fails to grasp your method of approach.

The problem with Bowser is you can't sleep on him. If he out-maneuvers you for any reason, you have a number of things to fear. Bowser relies heavily on a punish game, one that, overall, Bowser is better at capitalizing than you. A mistimed or misread aerial, special, or recovery can mean a Bowser Bomb, Dtilt, Jab frame trap, USmash, etc. Heaven help you if you somehow fall prey to these options while Bowser is benefiting from Rage. Each of those options are great for Bowser and make the MU more than possible for the him.

Overall, Greninja should have a slight advantage. It's good enough that Greninja has a convincing head start, but as the match goes on, both character's strengths shine equally.

 

[Coffee™]

Like I said, your best opportunity is when D3 has to approach, but really I don't feel we have to either. Dedede is at his best when the opponent is at mid-range, and if we can keep you there that's our best chance to rack up damage and create space.

I agree with you that Dedede loses the projectile war, but the thing is D3 doesn't really have to get as close as you think. Proper D3 play consists of keeping your opponent an f-tilt's distance away. Throwing out quick jabs to disrupt rushes, run away pivot f-tilt, using d-tilt to punish even the tightest windows. If you can keep a Greninja mid range, the lag on shurikens is enough to perfect shield punish and none of Greninja's other attacks reach. Breaking this space is the biggest challenge for Greninja, but if he can he will be successful in the matchup.

Even if Greninja has an advantage, it's only a slight one imo.

D3's best approach is "perfect shield to punish".

Think about that for a second...

 

[Antonykun]

Wario vs Geninja... A battle between two guys who when played perfectly will never let themselves get hit. I need to see some high level battle between the two cuz that sound intense.

 

[Big O]

I haven't really played against a good Greninja since the 1.04 patch released. Would anyone mind playing a few matches (my DK vs your Greninja) to get a better idea of how the MU plays out? I'm guessing Greninja has a slight advantage vs DK, but I don't really have much to go on.

 

[Sonsa]

Hi! I love Greninja, but only picked him up a few weeks ago, but I think I've been doing pretty well with him and I like helping so I hope I can be of some service! I think first I'd like to tackle:

Greninja vs Dedede

Dedede's his horizontal aerial mobility is rather poor so you can probably hit em with a shuriken or a nicely placed foward-air. Dedede's aerials have some start-up, his nair can be quick and strong so I don't recommend getting to close unless you're mid-combo of course.

When Dedede is on the ground, he'll want to jab you or go for a grab to down-throw and f-air you. So! I'd keep my space, make him come to you. He'll try to answer with a ...what're those spikeballs...oh, a gordo - which you can send back, shadow sneak punish, or even counter. However Dedede's might just be baiting for this, or send it at that angle where it acts as sort of a shield covering a f-tilt approach or something, maybe even an inhale.

Greninja definitely has better speed and can rack up damage with combos, preferably involving aerial juggles, I think Greninja beats Dedede in the air, but Dedede is quite heavy and tough to kill! Especially with such a good recovery. At least you can hydro pump him away, but - and this is where my lack of experience is embarrassing, I'm not sure if a hydro pump is enough to push Dedede away at some angles. Though, it may push him up and... Well I'm not sure, but now I'm imagining that you could water gun him over the stage? It's probably too quick for that! In any case if Dedede's start feeling like they're losing the upper hand they can cancel the hitbox and grab a ledge. Hopefully you can pump him away from it though?

Also for the off-stage game, if Dedede is trying to come back you can go for a back-air stage spike, a gutsy down-air, or wait to get a ledge-trump back-air or down-air. When they get frustrated with the ledge game and just want to get back on stage, Greninja should be quick enough to punish the endlag.
Now when Greninja is off-stage, Dedede can set up a gordo to try and manipulate your positioning and he may get a down-air spike of his own if timed correctly.
All in all, pretty even, but I think Greninja has slight off-stage advantage as he just has better mobility?

Dedede's down-tilt is also a good tool, I'd recommend keeping your space as usual. F-tilt and jabs, the same... Some Dedede's try approaching with a falling nair, but the range is short and Greninja is too quick. Shouldnt be a frequent problem.

You could play a rather campy Greninja throwing shurikens, pushing your opponent away with hydro pump or getting away with superior speed, and punishing with great combos easier to pull off on a heavy character. But I wouldn't be the aggressor, Dedede has some nice range and hits quite hard. You want him to come to you so you can take advantage of his endlag. It's not the easiest matchup, but I think Greninja can handle it pretty well. Just try to be creative when trying to recover to the stage. Maybe use the gyroid to counter and counter holding up?
I'd say this is... a 55:45 in Greninja's favor?

Stages you should try to go: Battlefield, FD and most Omega stages, Halberd
Battlefield's platforms can help you get sweet-spot up-smashes. And having more room to maneuver while Dedede struggles to keep up is an advantage. FD isnt the most preferable stage, but I don't think Dedede gets any advantage here? Halberd has a low ceiling you can use to kill Dedede with combos involving up-air. He's heavy, but Halberd has the lowest ceiling so this is your best bet for those kinds of kills.
Stages you should try to avoid: Town & City, Duck Hunt
Town & City has a low ceiling and I think closer side blast zones. Dedede will take a while to kill regardless, but here, I just don't think you'll survive as long. Duck Hunt also has these close sides. And Dedede can throw gordos down from the tree or bush. Plus ducks can get in your shurikens way.

 

[Ookami Hajime]

I haven't really played against a good Greninja since the 1.04 patch released. Would anyone mind playing a few matches (my DK vs your Greninja) to get a better idea of how the MU plays out? I'm guessing Greninja has a slight advantage vs DK, but I don't really have much to go on.

I will gladly play you

 

[Big O]

I will gladly play you

My NNID is BiiigOOO. Just add me whenever.

 

[Ookami Hajime]

Add me; Ookami-Haji, and let me know when you want to play or contact me easier @MS_Ookami on twitter

 

[Big O]

Add me; Ookami-Haji, and let me know when you want to play or contact me easier @MS_Ookami on twitter

I'm down for some right now if that's okay. If not I'll be on Friday night.

 

[Ookami Hajime]

I'm down for some right now if that's okay. If not I'll be on Friday night.

ready?

 

[FullMoon]

I have no idea what to say about the Wario MU at all. Like, no other MU left me with such a blank. Wario definitely has better kill power and I'm not entirely sure about how his air mobility is. The bike is super annoying as well but it's something that's not too hard to deal with once you get used to it. Plus unless Wario does a wheelie we can hit him out of the bike with N-Air.

Overall I don't really know what to say about this MU. I don't really feel like anyone has an advantage here so I guess I'll be going with 50:50. The main thing to worry about with Wario is the bike since it can invalidate all but charged shurikens and even then he can jump out of it. When not riding the bike though, the MU feels pretty much even. I don't think the bike by itself is enough to make this in Wario's favor though because it's not exactly hard to see coming and shield, plus we can hit Wario out of it with some good timing.

So yeah, I'm going with 50:50.

 

[Big O]

After playing some matches with @ Ookami Hajime (GG's), I feel like the DK-Greninja MU is pretty even.

DK is very hard to KO and pretty hard to gimp without a spike or stage spike. Hydro Pump doesn't really do anything to hinder his recovery either. Greninja's slow shield grab also makes DK's jab a lot safer as a poke.

Water Shuriken and Dair are annoying to deal with. I'm still not too sure how punishable Dair is if you spot dodge it, but DK's spot dodge sucks so I didn't really try it too often.

 

[FullMoon]

After playing some matches with @ Ookami Hajime (GG's), I feel like the DK-Greninja MU is pretty even.

DK is very hard to KO and pretty hard to gimp without a spike or stage spike. Hydro Pump doesn't really do anything to hinder his recovery either. Greninja's slow shield grab also makes DK's jab a lot safer as a poke.

Water Shuriken and Dair are annoying to deal with. I'm still not too sure how punishable Dair is if you spot dodge it, but DK's spot dodge sucks so I didn't really try it too often.

Hydro Pump isn't going to gimp DK's recovery, but it can make him recover above the stage, at which point Greninja gets a free punish on him with pretty much whatever he wants while he's in free fall. I'd say that's a pretty big thing that can really screw DK over. It allows Greninja to dominate DK pretty well if he can keep getting him offstage and then pumping him up so he can repeat the process.

I'd say Greninja has an advantage over DK just because of hellish he can make DKs life when he's gets the advantage since it can be really hard to escape the frog, especially when Greninja can easily use DK's recovery against him.