Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[KERO]

Mario and Doc are very easily gimped so we can easily get a kill so long as we get them out of the stage, which is a pretty huge thing. Getting them off the stage though, is tougher. The Marios makes fully charged shurikens dangerous to use and their projectiles are very annoying to get around.

I'd say for Mario it's 55-45 at his favor and Doc is probably at Greninja's favor since he being slower means it's easier to get hits on him.

As for Luigi... I wonder, could we use Substitute to edgeguard him by throwing ourselves at the side-b with it? I think it might work and an upwards sub could pretty easily kill if Luigi is at high %s, which he likely is if you're attempting it. It's something I would need to test.

I can't really say much about these match-ups due to lack of experience with them.

Honestly, didn't even think of that, but given that Luigi completely stops when missile hits a hurtbox, Sub may very well be a crazy good edgeguard against him.

Also, while SS can escape Utilt combos, is he able to shield the SS and regrab/jab? That still creates a bit of an issue if he can, but it's better than taking a free 20%. Otherwise, that's really nice for us.

 

[MartinAW4]

Honestly, didn't even think of that, but given that Luigi completely stops when missile hits a hurtbox, Sub may very well be a crazy good edgeguard against him.

Also, while SS can escape Utilt combos, is he able to shield the SS and regrab/jab? That still creates a bit of an issue if he can, but it's better than taking a free 20%. Otherwise, that's really nice for us.

I`m not sure if he can shield the SS after Utilt. It has never happened to me, but the Marios I`ve faced weren`t that good so they could have just been too slow. Not that it is easy to react to a SS which suddenly comes out from what they consider to be an inescapable combo.

 

[Coffee™]

@ Coffee™
I'd like to thank you for your idea, because we're actually going to use it!

Awesome. Glad I could help.

As for Mario....he can shield the SS as long as he isn't stupidly spamming Utilts but Greninja has more than enough options to deal with his Utilt chains so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Based on what I've seen and experienced this far Mario has quite a bit of issues dealing with Greninja's overall range, mobility and offstage pressure game. Don't wanna say too much until I've played a good one but I don't honestly see this being that even or Greninja losing.

Doc runs into all the same issues Mario does but to an even greater extent due to his lack of mobility and his pills being generally lackluster. He kills earlier than Mario but outside of Bair none of his kill moves are generally safe. SS OOs can punish any of his smashes.

Luigi....no idea.

 

[Spirst]

Luigi has a better combo game than Greninja but we absolutely wreck him offstage. Playing more defensive here isn't a bad idea because a shield grab generally means dthrow>Luigi stuff. Fully charged shuriken goes through the fireballs and we have the superior airspeed though Luigi has the faster aerials. Luigi will have an issue with approaches because of his lackluster speed and vulnerability to shield grabs. In turn, his up B KOs us pretty early if we're sloppy with our mobility. I've also seen Luigi jab cancel into up B but I'm almost certain that's shieldable and is reliant on lack of fast reaction time. Luigi's lack of being able to play offstage with Greninja hurts him a lot and can result in some early gimps while Luigi on the hand will have a very tough time trying to edge guard Greninja since he lacks the proper tools to do so.

 

[Kite0692]

I would like to test some things, but since I can't right now, I will say them right here. I played this matchup only once, and had some issues punishing some of his attacks. Which are the hardest punish we can get when we shield his jab combo, Dsmash, and Fsmash?

Oh and I haven't read anything about Mario's Nair, which is really good when he aproaches. I think its completely safe on block.

 

[Doodle Dork]

Luigi has a guaranteed kill setup against most of the characters with d-throw > cyclone at about 100+% by bringing them as close to the blast zone as possible by mashing B. However this doesn't quite work as well on Greninja because of his fast fallspeed. If you SDI downward you can escape the cyclone while he's trying to rise up. He can still keep you in the cyclone by not rising, but that won't kill until much, much later. However be careful of his d-throw > up-b combo, which will still kill us early, so I suggest DI-ing the d-throw down and away to avoid the followup.

 

[KERO]

Something important about Luigi Cyclone is that, on the ground, if we get caught in it, we can DI down and tech and then PUNISH it as a result (I believe it has enough end lag to be punished by a Fsmash). I believe this works at any percent. Also, I can't help but feel spacing SHFF Fairs will really help keep Luigi out.

However, be very careful with Bairs. Due to its lack of disjoint, he can just sit their and Usmash or Nair and hit us out of it, even if he takes a hit himself.

 

[BlinkIV]

^ Really? That's pretty beneficial imo. That can potentially shut down his approach game if we can do that. I typically just space Fairs against Luigi and toss WS' to mix up. I also tend to play defensive against Luigi and utilize a lot of pivot grabs.

Also getting U-throw > U-air may not be the best choice from a throw. Luigi being floaty can just mash nair to stop the u-air from coming. So I typically just bait the nair and punish with f-air/b-air and retain stage control by restting to neutral.

Anyone feel SS works good against Luigi? I can't think of any applications of where it would be optimal (Aside catching a tech roll, but that's for everyone).

 

[Gunla]

Week 2 Begins! Thanks for the MU feedback on Week 1; I will put notes in the chart based on consensus.

Week 2's MU's are... Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Little Mac and Mii Brawler!

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja really makes Little Mac's life miserable. The instant Greninja throws Mac out of the stage he's likely going to get gimped, be it by a b-air or Hydro Pump, both of which are very easy to do. On stage Greninja has the advantage of having a projectile that can really disrupt Mac and even though he's very strong on the ground, with some good reads it's not hard to get him out of the stage for a gimp.

I think the MU would be around 70-30 in Greninja's favor? I'm not very sure on how to determine that kind of thing.

Ganondorf is also a pretty good match-up for Greninja. Our speed makes Ganon really struggle to get hits on us while we can very easily rack up damage on him. Like Little Mac, Ganondorf is also easily gimpable out of stage, though a bit less so. I'm also pretty sure Greninja doesn't have a hard time dodging those annoying Flame Choke combos since I've been able to hit Ganon out of it while on the ground many times now. The main danger of going against Ganon is that he can KO us much earlier than we can KO him, but we can use shurikens for poking and disrupting him and for him to even get those hits in the first place he's going to rely mostly on reads since the lag on his attacks leave him pretty open for ours attacks.

I think that MU would also be around 70-30, maybe a bit less on our favor? He can kill us early, sure, but if we're careful in our approaches he has a really hard time hitting us.

Can't say much about Falcon since I haven't gone against him much, but from what I've experienced it feels like a pretty even MU. Never went against Mii Brawler before so there's nothing I can say about it.

 

[BlinkIV]

Captain Falcon feels even, or slightly in Captain Falcon's favor.

Due to his fast speed and long grab range, throwing out WS in neutral can possibly be bad for us. Since most times he can just shield, then dropshield and dash grab to punish. He has a very strong game and can really force us into bad positions. Most times if we get the SHFFL Nair and go for D-tilt > grab, he can just mash nair out of D-tilt and go into a jab combo from there (Little Mac can do the same, but ofc you can bait and punish with F-Smash/D-Smash), so that's something we can't throw out free.

In neutral we really just want to use SH fairs and keep him out of our range. If he shields and tries to dropshield grab, I don't "THINK" he'll be able to get the punish, but I may be wrong. Off stage though is mainly where we want Falcon. Due to his recovery being okay, we can abuse that VERY easily with fair/bair/WS offstage to keep him off. MU seems rough but I wouldn't call it a 60-40. Probably a 55-45 in Falcons favor imo.

I got nothin' for Mii Brawler either lol.

 

[Coffee™]

Greninja really makes Little Mac's life miserable. The instant Greninja throws Mac out of the stage he's likely going to get gimped, be it by a b-air or Hydro Pump, both of which are very easy to do. On stage Greninja has the advantage of having a projectile that can really disrupt Mac and even though he's very strong on the ground, with some good reads it's not hard to get him out of the stage for a gimp.

I think the MU would be around 70-30 in Greninja's favor? I'm not very sure on how to determine that kind of thing.

Greninja vs Mac is definitely not 70-30 's favor. If anything it's a 60-40 at best. Greninja is a bait and punish type of character, similar to Zard or Ganon. That type of playstyle is simply not effective vs Mac, a character that if played correctly leaves very little to capitalize on. Mac is b&p himself as well though so it does make for an interesting game of footsies.

Greninja Has to play really carefully in neutral though as Mac's attacks do more damage and he kills way earlier. The abundance of super armor is also really huge pain for Greninja to deal with as he has to commit so much when he approaches. Offstage Greninja wins....period but getting Mac there and in a position to properly gimp him can be problematic at times and a lot of times it can come down to a rps scenario. On stage Mac has the tools to win so his options there really shouldn't be underestimated.

Ganondorf is also a pretty good match-up for Greninja. Our speed makes Ganon really struggle to get hits on us while we can very easily rack up damage on him. Like Little Mac, Ganondorf is also easily gimpable out of stage, though a bit less so. I'm also pretty sure Greninja doesn't have a hard time dodging those annoying Flame Choke combos since I've been able to hit Ganon out of it while on the ground many times now. The main danger of going against Ganon is that he can KO us much earlier than we can KO him, but we can use shurikens for poking and disrupting him and for him to even get those hits in the first place he's going to rely mostly on reads since the lag on his attacks leave him pretty open for ours attacks.

Ganon vs is pretty bad....

2 B&P characters where one has never has to approach.......yea, not fun.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja vs Mac is definitely not 70-30 's favor. If anything it's a 60-40 at best. Greninja is a bait and punish type of character, similar to Zard or Ganon. That type of playstyle is simply not effective vs Mac, a character that if played correctly leaves very little to capitalize on. Mac is b&p himself as well though so it does make for an interesting game of footsies.

Greninja Has to play really carefully in neutral though as Mac's attacks do more damage and he kills way earlier. The abundance of super armor is also really huge pain for Greninja to deal with as he has to commit so much when he approaches. Offstage Greninja wins....period but getting Mac there and in a position to properly gimp him can be problematic at times and a lot of times it can come down to a rps scenario. On stage Mac has the tools to win so his options there really shouldn't be underestimated.

I was going mostly from my own experience, my main memory of fighting a good Mac was in the Smash Ladder where the guy managed to wreck me the first two stocks, but once I adapted to his playstyle I managed to make a huge comeback, two of the kills being by gimping.

I see your point though, Little Mac is a pain in neutral, but his dash attacks, if read, can leave him pretty vulnerable to a grab. Not only that but we can pressure him into going after us better than the opposite thanks to the shurikens, so if you can get him to the ledge you can possibly grab him and b-throw him off the stage, at which point you can easily gimp him. That's what experience has taught me at least.

 

[BlinkIV]

I played a Mii Brawler last night so I was able to get some exp.

So for some reason, he's got aerial mobility (like yoshi tier) with a very fast nair. So going for U-Throw > U-air isn't a thing against him since he can just mash. On the flipside you can jump and space a bair and use that instead. It's not AS optimal as U-throw > u-air, but it's something. Otherwise I'd just do b-throw/d-throw and DI mixup the opponent.

Watch out for Onslaught (the side b), it has super high priority. So if you're running around throwing out SHFFL Nairs, he can punish that with side-b almost all the time. His ground mobility doesn't seem amazing so tossing a few WS' in neutral would benefit Greninja.

Also his recovery..isn't that good. If he misses the ledge on the APEX, he's done. So I highly encourage to take that Mii to Splash Mountain every chance you get. Beware his F-Smash hits like Captain Falcon/Little Mac level so you can die VERY early from it.

It seems like the MU is in Greninjas favor, but not sure how big. Aside Onslaught punishes, idk what else Brawler can do to Greninja. 60-40.

 

[KERO]

Since no one really seems to know much about Mii Brawler, I'll throw my two cents in. Helicopter Kick is extremely terrifying. We had a Mii Brawler down here discover a combo where he can basically Dtilt to Fair to Fair to Fair to Helicopter Kick for the kill. This, combined with his terrifying air speed (and great ground speed) make him extremely hard to defend against. At most, we are allowed one shuriken when he's in Shuriken range. The good news is that we do heavily outrange him, but he is really good at getting in. Thankfully, unlike Mac, he doesn't have super armor on anything besides his fully charged uppercut, so we can disrupt direct approaches with jabs and Fairs. At the same time, though, if he shields an Fair that is not perfectly spaced, he is able to run in and punish with grab. It's a match-up we need to play carefully but not super defensively. We cannot be super reliant on shield or it will allow Brawler to start pressuring us super hard. While we do kill him early and have the range advantage, all it takes is one good read to throw us off and kill us or do a ton of damage. Another thing, Helicopter Kick somewhat negates gimp attempts as it gives a lot of horizontal distance while we don't have much of a way outside of stage spikes to safely spike someone.

Overall, I feel the MU is 50:50, though. We have the tools to keep him out, but one good read on his part or a mistake on ours, and he can make up a huge amount of lost ground.

 

[Marilink]

I feel like Greninja has a slight advantage in the Mii Brawler matchup. I say this because Greninja really can outrange Brawler, and the abundance of disjointed hitboxes on Greninja's moves gives Mii Brawler a difficult time. He's one of the easiest character to catch with a sweet-spotted Usmash, in my experience. He can combo you really well, especially out of Dthrow, but a variance in DI will make it harder on him.

Just keep using Dtilt and Jabs to disrupt him, throw out Shurikens when you can, and use the spacing to your advantage. Like I said, though, the advantage is only slight; I'd probably say 55:45.

 

[Gunla]

Week 3 begins! With... Mega Man, Mii Gunner, Link, and Toon Link!

 

[KERO]

Oh, man. I've played with OS and Kel a ton, so I know the Mega Man MU. Wish I had some videos, though.

Alright, so one big thing to note about Mega Man is that he has a really tough time killing. With Greninja's mobility, we can take HUGE advantage of that if we get the first kill off. HOWEVER, be very careful about becoming predictable with rolls. Dsmash can kill us as early as 80%, and while Mega Man has trouble killing, we do as well in some cases. As far as his projectile game goes, Shurikens cancel out Metal Blades. We can also catch his Metal Blade, but I would not advise it as it gives Mega Man the ability to run in with his lemons, which will cancel out Water Shurikens, a thrown Metal Blade, and puts him close to us for a grab. The best way to play Mega Man is generally weaving in and out with Fair while being aware of projectiles and dash grabbing when you get the opening. Greninja is actually able to jump over his jab and punish with Fair, which is nice.

Another great thing we have against Mega Man is that we can Uthrow/Utilt to Uair combo him for a longer time than a lot of other characters, and like R.O.B., he has a lot of trouble landing safely as we can chase him from the ground really well. HOWEVER, he has one move that can really wreck us if we become overzealous, that move being Utilt. It comes out on frame six and is invincible from frame 5 to 8. This is a move we must constantly be aware of. Like Dsmash, it can kill us at 80%, if not lower. Be absolutely sure you are able to punish his landing when you try to. Otherwise, there is a good chance they may throw this move out. Not all the time obviously, but getting killed at 80% is hugely demoralizing and gives Mega Man either a really good lead or a high chance to come back. Now, if he whiffs it, though, we get a free charged Fsmash punish unless we perfect shield it (in that case, run away a little, Shield, and Fsmash at him).

Speaking of Fsmash, it's a wonderful punish for when he is landing and you're close enough. Just be wary of Fair. If you shield and see him airdodge, you have enough time to drop shield and Fsmash. Otherwise, drop shield jab. As far as edgeguarding goes, good Mega Men won't let you edgeguard them. Drop down Bair MAY work, though if they're recovering straight up.

Another thing to be wary of is his Fsmash. It doesn't look powerful, but it can kill you if it catches you off-guard. Obviously, it's most dangerous when you're landing or getting up from the ledge. Do everything you can NOT to land on the ground after Hydro Pumping while recovering if he's waiting on the stage. He can punish with both Fsmash and Dsmash. Otherwise, if you know you won't be able to avoid the Fsmash, Hydro Pump upward and away from Mega Man (whether that be going behind him or just getting farther away depends on how close you are to the ledge/how close he is to you). Otherwise, fast fall and shield. On the ledge, try not to drop down double jump. If you see him charging the Fsmash, roll the moment he fires it.

Other things to note: Our Nair is not safe on shield at all. Bthrow can kill us at 150%+. Fully Charged Shuriken beats Leaf Shield. Nair beats out Danger Wrap. The moment you see Mega Man readying a Skull Barrier, RUN AND GRAB. We can do this from about 3/4 of FD's distance away from him actually. It's a free grab punish basically. If you're farther, run anyway, shield, spotdodge, and jab. When above him, DO NOT DAIR. Electricity is super effective against Water Types.

Moves that can kill at 150+%:
Bthrow, Bair, Usmash, Fsmash, Utilt, Dsmash

Moves that kills at 100%:
Fsmash, Utilt, Dsmash

Moves that kill under 100%:
Utilt Dsmash

Once we're at such high percents, and especially once we get that all important kill, we need to absolutely keep any situation where he might want to use these moves in mind. The hardest ones to avoid, in my opinion, would be Bthrow and Bair. Usmash also has a large side-hitbox, much like Olimar's from Brawl, so be cautious of OoS Usmash. If we can keep these moves in mind, it becomes really hard for Mega Man to kill us.

While Greninja has the tools to disrupt a lot of what Mega Man is able to do, Mega Man still has a lot of solid options against us as well. His jab and Nair combined with his grab can stymie our approaches, and one good read can be super deadly for us. While we can negate Metal Blade with Shurikens, it also forces an approach on our part as a result if he takes the lead over us. He also has a fantastic grab that makes him able to compete with us up close, possibly being able to negate our pressure and momentum if he gets the grab off and adding 10-12% in the process. Finally, one mistake can lead to a really early death for us. On the other hand, we stymie his projectile game, can outspace him with the likes of our Fair, can combo him for a long time because of his weight, and we get some fairly consistent kills via Fsmash on his landings. Dtilt and Dash attacks are pretty big toss-ups, but if we predict them, it's a free jab punish for us. Overall, I feel it's 55:45 Greninja favor.

 

[BlinkIV]

I 1000% agree with this. There isn't a single thing I disagree with in this. You pretty much just covered everything to know, haha. One of my training partners is actually iiGGY who mains Mega Man/Rosalina.

Although I recommend to be careful on the way you recover against Mega Man. He can almost always punish with Slash Claw (B-air) to kill at relatively early %'s. So most times opt to recover high, or try and go for the ledge trump and punish with a bair..or bait him to regrab the ledge and punish with D-Smash.

Beautiful post, and well said KERO =)

 

[FullMoon]

By the way, how about we ask the mains of those characters in their boards to give us some input as well? A perspective shift might help.

 

[DrSoussou]

Lol i guess i just proved 2 days is too little since I haven't been on here in like 2 weeks but maybe thats just me. Glad Coffee is smart.

I also think Mario beats greninja, maybe only slightly. Might have time to go deeper into this later, but for now, **** Luigi that character is busted.

 

[MartinAW4]

@ BlinkIV
Since you`ve been playing with some of the best Smash 4 players for some time now, how would you rate Greninja compared to the other characters?

I think he was top tier before the patch and he won several tournaments mainly in Japan, but after all the nerfs, I barely see him used in tournaments and even we he does get used, he usually loses and the player switches to someone else.
So do you think Greninja is still a tournament viable character that can compete with the top tiers and the reason he is used so little is because he is new and hard to learn, or did he get nerfed too much and is simply outclassed by other characters like Sheik?

 

[Coffee™]

@ BlinkIV
Since you`ve been playing with some of the best Smash 4 players for some time now, how would you rate Greninja compared to the other characters?

I think he was top tier before the patch and he won several tournaments mainly in Japan, but after all the nerfs, I barely see him used in tournaments and even we he does get used, he usually loses and the player switches to someone else.
So do you think Greninja is still a tournament viable character that can compete with the top tiers and the reason he is used so little is because he is new and hard to learn, or did he get nerfed too much and is simply outclassed by other characters like Sheik?

No....

Initially I thought the nerfs weren't that bad either but in continuing to play the character his issues are becoming more and more apparent. Greninja is indeed a decent character but he loses to most of the currently considered top tier characters and has a lot of even matchups amongst most of the cast, As past games have showed us, these combinations of traits do not make for a solo tourney viable character. He was probably top 5 before the patch tho.

His main issues lie in the fact that he simply cannot deal with shield pressure nor does he have any reliable approaches except spaced SH FF Nair and Dash Grab. If any character can reliably play around those 2 moves and can apply decent shield pressure then Greninja is gonna have a hard time. Pray to the gods if they also have any kind of reflector....

He also has a pretty high skill cap to play well so....you can see why he's underused by the better players.

 

[BlinkIV]

@ BlinkIV
Since you`ve been playing with some of the best Smash 4 players for some time now, how would you rate Greninja compared to the other characters?

I think he was top tier before the patch and he won several tournaments mainly in Japan, but after all the nerfs, I barely see him used in tournaments and even we he does get used, he usually loses and the player switches to someone else.
So do you think Greninja is still a tournament viable character that can compete with the top tiers and the reason he is used so little is because he is new and hard to learn, or did he get nerfed too much and is simply outclassed by other characters like Sheik?

He's still a tournament viable character. By no means is he not anymore.

I agree that he was top tier before the patch, but it was just a degenerate style. The notable Greninjas dropped him after the patch, including Nietono from Japan. People just aren't used to his style and can't comprehend how to play him "correctly" to make him tournament viable these days. There are matches were we do see Greninja lose, or not place high enough. But just give it time, the results will change in given time.

I wouldn't say he gets outclassed by the other top tiers at all. He actually does pretty well against Diddy Kong, and doesn't have TOO much of a hard time against Shiek. Same thing for Rosalina/ZSS. Maybe it's MU wise, or me being relatively good at the game and figuring out what to do, idk.

Despite his main approaches being dash grab, and SHFFL Nair. Those are 2 REALLY good things he's got going, and besides he's got tons more we haven't even BEGUN to utilize yet. Have you ever done SHFFL Fair > Grab? Or what about sliding F-tilt? Or how about using WS to bait your opponents approach? Even if it hits their shield, what can we do after it? Bait the roll and grab/dsmash/upsmash? Or we can roll up and just grab for free! He's got the tools to stay in top 10, we're just waiting for the person that can do that. =)

 

[MartinAW4]

No....

Initially I thought the nerfs weren't that bad either but in continuing to play the character his issues are becoming more and more apparent. Greninja is indeed a decent character but he loses to most of the currently considered top tier characters and has a lot of even matchups amongst most of the cast, As past games have showed us, these combinations of traits do not make for a solo tourney viable character. He was probably top 5 before the patch tho.

His main issues lie in the fact that he simply cannot deal with shield pressure nor does he have any reliable approaches except spaced SH FF Nair and Dash Grab. If any character can reliably play around those 2 moves and can apply decent shield pressure then Greninja is gonna have a hard time. Pray to the gods if they also have any kind of reflector....

He also has a pretty high skill cap to play well so....you can see why he's underused by the better players.

Yeah, that`s how I see it as well. I can usually hold my own against most characters, but once the opponent switches to a high tier, especially Sheik, Yoshi, Fox and Sonic, I feel I have to work so much harder and outplay them heavily just to keep up with their standard game. Their movement speed matches or surpasses ours and their moves have less start-up lag than Greninja`s so I`m basically forced to play one step ahead of them if I want to land a hit.

I`d like to work on a secondary, but is there even a character with a favorable matchup against the 4 characters I mentioned? I considered Lucario who I mained in Brawl and who seems to do well against Sheik, but he also has a lot of lag on his moves, so I`d be facing the same problem as with Greninja and I`m not sure how well he`d do against the others, especially Fox, who I think has the avantage. So can you think of another character that could handle Sheik, Yoshi, Fox and Sonic?

Edit:
I just noticed @ BlinkIV `s post. It`s great to hear your optimism about Greninja and I really hope it`s as you said and the problem is in my lack of Greninja experience and not the character itself. If I remember correctly, you said that you practiced against Denti`s Sheik. Could you give me some tips how to handle the matchup? Sheik is the character that gives me the most trouble.

 

[FullMoon]

I know this is the match-up discussion thread but... Aren't we supposed to be discussing Megaman, the Links and Gunner here?

I think it might be a better idea to bring the current topic to the Social thread.

 

[BlinkIV]

Sorry for changing track, i'll move it over to social. I'm not sure if it'd be alright if I talked about Shiek until week 3. Idm PMing or talking about it somewhere else.

 

[MartinAW4]

Sorry for changing track, i'll move it over to social. I'm not sure if it'd be alright if I talked about Shiek until week 3. Idm PMing or talking about it somewhere else.

I`m the one who should apologize since I was the one who started the off topic discussion. So yeah, it would probably be better to continue in the Social thread.

 

[Gunla]

It's all cool; I can make Sheik part of next week in addition.

 

[Coffee™]

Left my reply in the social thread.

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link main here. I've had a lot of experience with Greninja, and it's definitely a huge uphill battle for Toon Link. In my opinion the match-up is about 30:70 Greninja's favor. Water shurikens cancel out TL's boomerang's and arrows and can overall give the TL a hard time if they're not careful. Greninja especially gives TL a hard time if he's constantly in TL's face. Greninja still has a very easy time gimping TL, too, and his good aerials can give TL a very hard time.
I'd say the main things to watch out for vs TL are his bombs and utilt. Utilt > utilt can rack up around 36%-39% on Greninja iirc, and bombs are really useful for set-ups for TL. Bombs are especially good for helping TL set up for KOs, KOs being something TL has an especially hard time getting against Greninja since a lot of his kills in general come from things like gimps (very hard to do against Greninja) and uair (which is beaten by Greninja's dair, as well as uair iirc).

We actually happen to be discussing the Greninja match-up in the TL board, so there's some other stuff on the match-up there. Also if anyone is interested in helping us out: http://smashboards.com/threads/tl-m...anon-greninja-ike.378737/page-2#post-18347032

 

[FullMoon]

Toon Link does seem to have a lot of difficulty getting a kill on Greninja due to most of his options being either unsafe or easy for the ninja to get around. Water Shuriken is not as spammable now which at least gives Toon Link an easier time though it's still good for canceling his projectiles. I guess between 70:30 and 60:40 seems to be right.

What about Link though? He has a much easier time killing than Toon Link, but the fact that he's slower can be pretty detrimental against someone like Greninja. His arrows are also really fast and annoying to deal with but I feel that once Greninja gets Link into the air and/or out of the stage, he really is at his mercy.

 

[MartinAW4]

Link is probably the character I`ve faced most often on For Glory, and he is one of the easiest ones for me to face. I don`t know if it`s because Link appeals to newer players or if the matchup is just highly in our favor, probably a bit of both. But he is a very slow character with relatively slow kill moves that he has trouble landing on us, so from my experience he has more problems killing us than Toon Link despite his higher kill power.

Our Nair and Fair approaches are very effective against him because they allow us to approach from the air where we avoid his projectiles and his moves usually aren`t fast enough to intercept our aerials.

Also thanks to his high weight and relatively big hitbox, we can combo him very well, especially in the air with Uair since his Dair has so much start-up lag. And once we get him off stage, we can gimp him very well with Hydro Pump, Bair and even Dair because of his purely vertical recovery.

He doesn`t even win the camping game because we can throw out uncharged Water Shurikens just as fast as he can throw his boomerangs and shoot arrows. So he cannot even force us to approach.

So overall I think the matchup against Link is around 70:30 in our favor.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Link pretty much forces Greninja to approach. Greninja can get in easily on the ground, but when Link plays his bomb game, it makes it harder for Greninja to approach. Link can simply toss a bomb upward and toss a boomerang, or lay a bomb down as a trap to prevent a ground approach. Not that many For Glory Link players do this. Greninja, does have great combos on Link though and can juggle the hell out of him. Link is very versatile though, he has an answer for almost anything, the only thing that can change Link's game plan is speedy characters and characters will reflectors. Greninja lacks the means to reflect projectiles but he has the speed to get in with grab if the Link player isn't good at setting up projectile traps. A good Link makes it hard for Greninja to get in, though this is where shadow sneak really helps in the match up, it can catch Link by surprise as he is tossing out his projectiles only to get punished with a shadow sneak. Overall, I think its a very even 50/50 match up.

 

[BlinkIV]

I think Greninja tears Link a new one, lol.

 

[Spirst]

I don't see Link and Greninja as going even. Yeah, Link has projectiles Greninja needs to get around (though can trade with uncharged shurikens or go through all with fully charged) but his mobility enables him to do just that. Also, I don't see shadow sneak as being very helpful in the MU (or in any MU) but it does have its uses, sure. The issue is, projectile chip damage aside, Greninja will have a much easier time hitting Link than Link will Greninja. Like Greninja, Link doesn't have amazing OoS options so it's possible to pressure him really well while Link on the other hand can't take enough advantage of Greninja's poor OoS options. Offstage, it's not even funny. A Link offstage against Greninja (which isn't hard to do considering Greninja can use his superior mobility to grab/hit Link) is always at the immediate risk of losing the stock. Bairs and hydro pump will destroy Link's recovery and his meh aerial speed won't give him enough covered distance to make it back. His weight and relatively slow moves make him pretty easy to combo and rack up damage on whereas Link will have a hard time getting momentum going against Greninja. I really can't see how this is an even MU vs Link considering Greninja beats on the ground overall (though projectile walls do make it closer to even, sure), in the air, and offstage.

 

[Ventus55]

Any tips on Rosalina and Luma

 

[Goldschuss]

Okay as for the matchup with the mii gunner I can tell you he is extremely hard to beat.

He outranges you at everything, zones you hard from recovery und his smashes are hard to dodge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZurQ0qjljw

 

[Gunla]

Week 4 begins with Fox, Falco, Sheik and ZSS!

 

[MartinAW4]

I`ll repost our Sheik discussion from the Social thread here, now that her week has started:

Spoiler: Sheik matchup discussion

The MU with Shiek is definitely in her favor, neutral position is very scary. Beware for needles..WS can't beat them, her mobility is godlike, so she can easily weave in and punish us for tossing out WS.

The MAIN thing in this MU though. Is Shieks F-tilt, that thing is gdlk and can completely kill us if we aren't careful enough. We don't have any OoS option that is fast enough to beat F-Tilt shield pressure, and not to mention she can follow up easily to grab if you hold shield. A theory I had was to drop shield jab if she goes for F-Tilt > Grab. But it wouldn't beat out F-Tilt > F-tilt, so it's a 50/50 scenario. There is absolutely no way we can play campy against Shiek and hope to win, no way in hell.

Adding to Neutral, the best things you want to do are: SHFFL Nair/Fair and then occasional F-Tilt (Or sliding F-tilt) to kinda swat her away. I don't recommend using D-Tilt that much due to how much startup it has..with that, Shiek can just easily punish you with a jab/f-tilt before the move even comes out. The moveset seems kinda limited, but we can make it work.

Offstage isn't so bad for both sides. Be careful of how you recover because Shiek can swat us out with B-air/F-air/Bouncing Fish, so it can be a little tough to recover. The best thing I do against Shiek is when I'm above the ledge, I do Up-B Upwards, and then downwards into the ledge. That way it kinda pushes Shiek away abit so you can be safe on the ledge for a moment. And if Shiek is offstage, don't commit to trying to Hydro Pump her unless you know it's 100% guaranteed to kill. Best thing to do is just wait on stage, and throw fully charged WS when she's under the ledge and hope to hit..OR if she's above you, punish with Up-smash/Up-tilt/Shadow Sneak to catch her landings.

The big issue with Shiek is, she can't secure the kill. If she gets you above 130%, you obtained the Golden Banana. We have an easier time killing Shiek, but she has an easier time destroying us in Neutral. So as long as you stay out of B-air/F-Smash/Bouncing Fish/Up-Smash range from 130% and higher, you're good to go.

Another thing, she has Mii Brawler/Yoshi/Mario/Dr.Mario/Luigi syndrome. Where she can mash Nair at low %'s to get out of stuff. So if you Up-throw, they will likely mash Nair, and just punish that with Up-smash for the % lead. Otherwise if they air dodge, opt to do charged D-smash to catch the landing. I'd typically go for the up-air follow up at higher %'s (Around 50%). Another thing to do around 30-40% is to just bair her away and keep the stage control.

I don't really like to use Substitute in the MU though. I typically use it to do the upward version and punish characters who hit me and go above (Like Ness doing rising fair, or greninja doing dair, etc). It's an odd occasion that you will see Shiek do D-air on you, and if she does? Power to you, and Down-B kill her.

We NEED to be aggressive against Shiek at all times, stay in her area and don't let her be in the position to F-Tilt you, thats what makes the MU so hard for Greninja. 60-40 Shieks favor, debatable to be 70-30 Shieks favor.

@ BlinkIV
Thanks for all the great advice against Sheik. I just don`t understand why your reason for not using Dtilt is that it has high start-up lag when it is our second fastest move after Jab, starting on frame 5 while Ftilt which you reccomended starts on frame 10 and also has more end lag than Dtilt.

My main problem against Sheik is in the neutral because her Fair beats our SHFF Nair approach, so I`m forced to space SHFF Nairs/Fairs out of her Fair range and hope she gets caught into them when trying to hit us. That`s where my "having to play one step ahead" feeling comes from, since I can only hit her if I can predict where she will end up after an attack and space my move accordingly. At least we do have the range advantage on most of our moves.

Once I land a hit, I can combo her pretty well since I tested all the combos in the combo thread against Sheik, so I know exactly which combos are available at which percents. But landing that hit is very hard against a character with such great mobility, attack speed and a faster projectile that outranges ours.

@ MartinAW4
"Thanks for all the great advice against Sheik. I just don`t understand why your reason for not using Dtilt is that it has high start-up lag when it is our second fastest move after Jab, starting on frame 5 while Ftilt which you reccomended starts on frame 10 and also has more end lag than Dtilt."

I use F-Tilt instead just because of range. That's..the only reason. Shiek can't grab OoS it.

"My main problem against Sheik is in the neutral because her Fair beats our SHFF Nair approach, so I`m forced to space SHFF Nairs/Fairs out of her Fair range and hope she gets caught into them when trying to hit us. That`s where my "having to play one step ahead" feeling comes from, since I can only hit her if I can predict where she will end up after an attack and space my move accordingly. At least we do have the range advantage on most of our moves."

I feel that we have the answer against Shiek, but we haven't really found what it is yet. I've got a gut feeling we can do this!

"Once I land a hit, I can combo her pretty well since I tested all the combos in the combo thread against Sheik, so I know exactly which combos are available at which percents. But landing that hit is very hard against a character with such great mobility, attack speed and a faster projectile that outranges ours."

I'll have to get some of that from you, I normally don't do "this combo at this %" I kinda just go with what flows, ya dig? haha

@ BlinkIV
"I use F-Tilt instead just because of range. That's..the only reason. Shiek can't grab OoS it."
You can get Bouncing Fished or Dash Attacked though.

@ MartinAW4

"My main problem against Sheik is in the neutral because her Fair beats our SHFF Nair approach, so I`m forced to space SHFF Nairs/Fairs out of her Fair range and hope she gets caught into them when trying to hit us. That`s where my "having to play one step ahead" feeling comes from, since I can only hit her if I can predict where she will end up after an attack and space my move accordingly. At least we do have the range advantage on most of our moves."​

Jab is really good against Shiek. It helps a lot in the situations when you land with your Nairs in about her Ftilt range. It's faster than her Ftilt as well and I believe either the same frame or 1 more than her Jab. Most Shieks aren't using Jab that much though and generally won't through it out in that scenario anyway so abuse that.

I think using Perfect pivot, Sliding Dtilt or DSmash, and foxtrotting. Will help Greninja movement options against sheik. We have to use all of Greninja's speed options. I think mastering these advanced techniques with Hydro Pumps gimps will help out immensely.

Also lets not forget Shadow sneak hitstun cancel from sheik's FSmash.

@SuperSmashKing009
"Also lets not forget Shadow sneak hitstun cancel from sheik's FSmash."
I've played against pretty good Sheiks a number of times and the issue with that is that while in works in isolated tests, having that kind of reflexes mid-game can be hard considering that there isn't a large telegraphed animation beforehand unless it's charged. It will require very fine-tuned reflexes for the input to be done on time. Shadow sneak canceling in general strikes me as less useful than something like Rush canceling. It's great when it works and you're able to punish the opponent for the multi-hit but the fact that's it not instant and has, according to the frame data thread, 66f of cooldown makes it situational. It works best when you're canceling a longer multi-hit like Sheik's ftilt chain/Mega Man's dash attack or something telegraphed like Ganon's choke.

That`s what I also thought until I realized that I often find myself in situations (especially against Sheik) when I know I will get punished because I can`t shield in time due to being stuck in end lag of a missed move, frame trapped or for whatever other reason. And in that case, the only thing left for me to do is mash side B to at least escape her Fsmash if she tries to use it.

Another example when SS cancelling is easy to use is when paralyzed by ZSS to punish her Fsmash if she decides to use it instead of a grab. When paralyzed, you know a punish is coming and you can`t do anything to prevent it, but you can at least punish her if she makes the wrong choice.

So while you`re right that it is very hard to use SS in reaction to being hit by a fast move such as Sheik`s Fsmash, it can still be used effectively if you can predict a punish in advance.

That much is very true (especially the YOLO part). I just find a cancel to be superior when it has a lot of usage on reaction (like Rush canceling) rather than having to anticipate the read beforehand. If there were earlier intangibility frames rather than it starting at 12f, it would definitely be a lot easier to execute.

Yeah, it`s unfortunate how late the intangibility frames on SS activate. You can see that the SS hitstun canceling works even on moves such as Meta Knight`s Tornado or Drill Attack because the smoke appears, but you get hit again before you become intangible causing you to stay trapped. If the intangibility activated on frame 1, we`d probably be able to escape every multi-hit attack consisting of several weak hits in the game.

Another big drawback of SS is its end lag. Because of how punishable it is if you miss, it is very risky to use for escaping multi-hit moves that don`t allow you to land the SS hit like most Jabs or Utilt combos. Even if you escape the combos, you will just get hit by a harder punish during the SS end lag, so you end up taking more damage than if you stayed in the combo.

"
@ Coffee™
"Jab is really good against Shiek. It helps a lot in the situations when you land with your Nairs in about her Ftilt range. It's faster than her Ftilt as well and I believe either the same frame or 1 more than her Jab. Most Shieks aren't using Jab that much though and generally won't through it out in that scenario anyway so abuse that."
Yeah, I actually got to try that out more. Dropshield jab is gdlk against Shiek, it really helps against her pressure on our shields. We just can't get gung-ho with it though, or else we'd get OoS grabbed lol.

Based sakurai!

So I got to play Eazy yesterday. Randomly ran into him in FG rofl. We played secondaries mainly and did a bo3 with our mains. Shiek (I believe he mains), against Greninja. I somehow managed to win, but I tried some new stuff that works good against Shiek. F-Tilt as an anti air to Shieks approach, and dropshield jab helps against her shield pressure. We can jab before she tosses a 2nd f-tilt on shield.

To summarize:
- the matchup is definitely in her favor, somewhere in the 70-30 to 60-40 range
- needles beat Water Shuriken
- Sheik`s Ftilt and Fair pressure is very strong against our weak out of shield options
- our best answer is shield drop -> Jab, which beats Ftilt shield pressure
- in the neutral, our Ftilt and SHFF Nair/Fair -> Jab are also useful for spacing
- we need to play aggressively
- we can SS hitstun cancel out of her Fsmash and punish it, but it is hard to react in time, so you have to anticipate it in advance.
- our Ftilt can be used to answer Sheik`s aerial approaches