Marth's not as good as you all think

[Mew2King]

I thought he was the best in the game at first, but when I started playing super super campy people who just shot arrows and projectiles all the time, and shield camped the rest of the time, I started realizing Marth's not nearly as good as I thought at first. I'm starting to think he's only like top of high tier, and bottom of top tier at best, due to having really bad grabs, horribly weak throws that don't legitly combo, no projectiles, and getting ***** badly by smart camping from his opponent.

I'm probably still going to main him because of Melee, but as a character tier wise he doesn't seem nearly as good as he was at first once you learn the game's engine better. You can air dodge between his "broken" fairs for a long time if you time it right, that's dumb.

 

[chaddd]

I thought he was the best in the game at first, but when I started playing super super campy people who just shot arrows and projectiles all the time, and shield camped the rest of the time, I started realizing Marth's not nearly as good as I thought at first. I'm starting to think he's only like top of high tier, and bottom of top tier at best, due to having really bad grabs, horribly weak throws that don't legitly combo, no projectiles, and getting ***** badly by smart camping from his opponent.

I'm probably still going to main him because of Melee, but as a character tier wise he doesn't seem nearly as good as he was at first once you learn the game's engine better. You can air dodge between his "broken" fairs for a long time if you time it right, that's dumb.

I don't want argue with you, but it did take you an awfully long time to realize the subtle workings of melee; where as I've been playing this game for a little under 2 years, now.

Regardless, you can't base how good Marth is simply from his throws and how much camping pisses you off. To me, that simply states that you don't have the patience to learn the differences between these two games we play. His grabs, not as good as in melee, no, but about the same range and usefulness when it comes to mind games. Also, the best approach to camping, Ive noticed, is to attempt to use all your patience and ignore it. Just because you're losing is no reason to change your view on the character. Marth seems like he's not as good because everyone knows how to play against a Marth, and you've found that with the subtle spacing changes that you're not nearly and precise as you were in Melee.

That doesn't change the fact that Marth's back air kills at semi high percentages, as do every single one of his aerials, hold the neutral. This game isn't entirely what you think it's about if you're still trying to go for grab to juggle combos. I mean, have you seen the smash DI sensitivity, or even the mechanics of the air dodge? Grab to attack doesn't work anymore, and that's going to mean a lot less stock taken by down airs, but the simple fact that you can still Ken Combo with proper dash cancelling is a good sign that you can't find another explanation for why you're losing.

All Marth's attacks when spaced properly, which is all that matters, are quite a bit stronger than in melee, with more stun, and more chance to kill. He also still maintains the ability to pressure with his aerials, since for some reason, someone thought it was a good idea to make his back air not only stronger, but faster. So he can short hop back air forward air? And he's not as good as he was in melee? What about the full jump double up air? Or how the tippered up air will usually kill someone off the top at 95% or higher?

Come on man.

EDIT: I forgot to mention how much easier it is to gimp someone at low percentages using his forward air as an edge guard, and utilizing the auto sweetspot with the up b to steal the ledge from grapplers. Oh, and the up b. Oh god the up b.

 

[Hydde]

I thought he was the best in the game at first, but when I started playing super super campy people who just shot arrows and projectiles all the time, and shield camped the rest of the time, I started realizing Marth's not nearly as good as I thought at first. I'm starting to think he's only like top of high tier, and bottom of top tier at best, due to having really bad grabs, horribly weak throws that don't legitly combo, no projectiles, and getting ***** badly by smart camping from his opponent.

I'm probably still going to main him because of Melee, but as a character tier wise he doesn't seem nearly as good as he was at first once you learn the game's engine better. You can air dodge between his "broken" fairs for a long time if you time it right, that's dumb.

yeh, i noticed this very fast since the japan version when a campy zelda owned me. Pit is another nemesis for marth.
A good camper lucario is also a pain in the ***... when you finall are able to catch him, you have to deal with those crazy hitboxes he have.

When things get nasty against camper , i tend to switch chars. Like you said, he is still our main but is not as flexible as before.

 

[xandeR-]

My personal favorite thing to do to fight this is dodge everything i can and fair everything else.

In melee at least, I had a friend who played a slick projectile link and I would just charge his *** dodging arrows, rangs and bombs and slashing those I couldn't dodge. It worked quite well and is also great for making them nervous. :-p

 

[Drephen]

shiek still ***** marth.........ROFL

 

[Xeorogue]

shiek still ***** marth.........ROFL

lawll qft drephen your ****in redic lol

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

What about in the American version of the game? Can Marth still Ken combo, despite his Fair getting a landing lag?

 

[chaddd]

What about in the American version of the game? Can Marth still Ken combo, despite his Fair getting a landing lag?

It's about what part of the sword you hit them with and what percentage they're at, landing lag shouldn't make a difference.

I'm assuming. Plus I saw Silent Wolf do a Ken combo with full jumps. I dunno, maybe. If not, then hurray.

 

[Mew2King]

no melee marth kills way better, reliable gimps, reliable long combos, and better almost everything. Brawl marth gets ***** by the new defensive shield system that brawl has, where people just run away and spam projectiles like pits arrows, then either shield grab, shield cancel into a counterattack, or roll away at any chance they get, with very little room to punish any of those maneuvers because of the slow pace and limited options that brawl gives. That's where I make my conclusions from. Cactuar PC and Cort and many others also think Marth is high tier. I use him cuz I'm good with him, and that's the most important thing about characters is how good you are with them rather than tiers, but I might as well say that he's not as good as everyone thinks because, he's not.



edit - this post was supposed to be right after chaddd's first comment, but smashboards shut down on me and I never felt like going back until later

 

[zapdose]

How would you guys suggest dealing with projectile spam?
Can you still slash it? Powershielding? Jumping over it?

 

[TickleMePick1e]

^^^ would also like to know

 

[kidbu916]

I guess its time to ADAPT like all the creatures did. Remember its survival of the fittest.

 

[cheifrocka]

powershield if you can, i would say mix between ps and slash what you're able to. air dodge is less punishable now, so if you're chasing with short hops mix it in (a little bit). you really have to beat rush and try to aggro spammers now. which is a good way to get punished but oh wellies.

 

[orintemple]

For me Marth feels strange, as a Marth main in Melee I can't get feeling comfortable with him. I can still beat most people with him despite not maining him anymore, but it feels awkward and uncomfortable. I guess, like many people, it is hard to break those old habits and relearn the character, but I don't have the passion for it anymore, its kinda sad really. O well, gotta look towards the future I guess.

 

[squarez]

Shiek is awesome.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shiek most certainly doesn't own Marth in Brawl.

M2K didn't you always have trouble with campers in melee?

Anyway, Marth is good.

Also stop trying to chain fairs.

Why are you trying to chain fairs? Do you like getting hit out of them or something?

Also there are plenty of ways to deal with campers. Camping is an effective strat and it can build damage reliably but it's not unstoppable.

Do you think maybe you feel that Marth isn't so hot because you overestimated him so much in the beggining. It's all about perspective really.

Marth is beast.

 

[Alex Strife]

Remember that N-airs are 0 Lag frames and can be used in conjunction with Shield grabs. Also you have to play this game like Ken in 3s. Setups and lures are important to Marth's Game in Brawl. Lure, Setup, Combo and then Repeat. I had trouble playing a camping D3 ( Vanz ) but I know it was because of my style of play verses his.

Think of it this way. Play safe moves to learn into other moves like N-air --- F-air x2 -- and use more of the Dancing Blades as they are fast and go to tear a shield apart.

Again we are all getting used to Marth's range being reduced so that is another factor.


Just my two cents from a 3s perspective and applying it to Brawl

 

[Irow]

Im sorry, but do you know how easy it is to perfect shield projectles, even Pit's? Hell, I even switched Y to shield for more precise shielding. Dashing shield works, and it's a relaible approach. If you cant do that, you can even roll, or camp the edge. Projectiles are not as annoying as in Melee. Even Falcos SHDL gets shielded hella easier.

Whenyou grab, just do grabhits. If they escape your grab the wrong way, say hello to forward b.
Learn to shield. That's the best way to deal with it.

 

[kidbu916]

Pit's not as near as problem as Snake is though, with all explosives and good close combat.

 

[Galt]

Against campy characters with Marth, I'm really interested to see if the shieldbreaker will become more useful. I think with its speed and aerial charge ability and range, it should be very good for preventing your opponent from just being able to shield-camp you. Combine that with his side-B, which I think works better for him as a defensive move than trying to shield-grab (unless you're going to up-B out of shield, which wrecks everyone), and you have a versatile character who can play defensively or offensively at will.

I hope people give it a shot. Not I, though, on account of I'll just play Melee.

 

[Mew2King]

it's not 0 frames, autocancel is melee is 4 frames landing lag, brawl is probably similar, definitely not 0 or close to it

 

[Emblem Lord]

3 Frames.

Land lag is 3 frames in Brawl.

 

[Metzger]

I think what M2K is saying makes some sense.

The whole game is slower. Marth's aerial approach in particular is not as quick, nor is it as safe as PS a F-Air even at max range gives the target more options to mess with your spacing. You can't chase people quite as well to keep your spacing game open.

Projectiles really don't move any slower, though. Yes, it is easier to defend against the projectiles because of new shielding mechanics, but it still means your approach job is going to get harder as they have more time to react to your approach and put you on the reactionary faster with the next projectile setup.

I'm not sure it's going to be enough to keep Marth out of top tier, but I definitely don't think he's the best character in the game.

 

[Alex Strife]

3 Frames.

Land lag is 3 frames in Brawl.

My bad then.

Well I stand by my idea that you can approach with marth but it has to be with poking and safe moves

 

[Meowmix]

If not marth, who would you think is going to be top tier if not Marh? Only person with a good blend of projectiles, speed, and range seems to be young link, so I'm assuming he might be top,.

 

[Ndot]

Mr. Game and Watch is pretty beastly in this game lol.

 

[Skazryk]

The best thing that ive done against campers is to just air dodge and roll dodge your way to them. and if you find that they are dodging your fair then do a forward b and then that will get them, if you dont do all the attacks in the forward b then you can get them into a fair combo. and yes you can still ken combo.

 

[Funked]

Haha, camping is so NOT an issue in this game, but i guess for people who never played other fighting games before melee it could be an annoyance, try playing other games where people camp all the time, someone mentioned 3s, which ken and chun can turtle you out beat you no problem if you are not at a high enough level mentally to get around it.

I guess since Ive been playing games competitively for around 6 years, that it doesn't bother me.

The best way to beat a "camper" (it cracks me up that people call it camping instead of turtling, especially since the shield is very shell like) is to force them into situations where if they guess wrong you get a lot of either damage or advantage, vs. where they guess right they get next to nothing.

 

[Admiral Pit]

As long as my 5 mains can own an Average Marth, I'll be satisfied.

 

[Vortok]

Regarding projectiles and stopping them with attacks, I just quickly tested in Training mode versus Toon Link (spelled Young Link before I corrected, lol). Was able to neutral jab and negate his arrow and boomerang. Counter worked for the bomb. Got hit by the explosion when I jabbed it (go figure). Too lazy to test versus every projectile, but it seems to still be in at least partially.

 

[cheifrocka]

after playing in a small tourney today I would have to say that I agree more with m2k's first post thoughts. decent campers are annoying, marth isn't just going to run them over, someone with a good camping mastery is going to make your approach really aggravating.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Who the hell said Marth is gonna run anyone over?

He is top tier not god tier.

 

[Almo]

lucas' pkfire is probably the most annoying thing to approach for me. seriously that thing is so ridiculous.

 

[Psydon]

I don't want argue with you, but it did take you an awfully long time to realize the subtle workings of melee; where as I've been playing this game for a little under 2 years, now.

Regardless, you can't base how good Marth is simply from his throws and how much camping pisses you off. To me, that simply states that you don't have the patience to learn the differences between these two games we play. His grabs, not as good as in melee, no, but about the same range and usefulness when it comes to mind games. Also, the best approach to camping, Ive noticed, is to attempt to use all your patience and ignore it. Just because you're losing is no reason to change your view on the character. Marth seems like he's not as good because everyone knows how to play against a Marth, and you've found that with the subtle spacing changes that you're not nearly and precise as you were in Melee.

That doesn't change the fact that Marth's back air kills at semi high percentages, as do every single one of his aerials, hold the neutral. This game isn't entirely what you think it's about if you're still trying to go for grab to juggle combos. I mean, have you seen the smash DI sensitivity, or even the mechanics of the air dodge? Grab to attack doesn't work anymore, and that's going to mean a lot less stock taken by down airs, but the simple fact that you can still Ken Combo with proper dash cancelling is a good sign that you can't find another explanation for why you're losing.

All Marth's attacks when spaced properly, which is all that matters, are quite a bit stronger than in melee, with more stun, and more chance to kill. He also still maintains the ability to pressure with his aerials, since for some reason, someone thought it was a good idea to make his back air not only stronger, but faster. So he can short hop back air forward air? And he's not as good as he was in melee? What about the full jump double up air? Or how the tippered up air will usually kill someone off the top at 95% or higher?

Come on man.

EDIT: I forgot to mention how much easier it is to gimp someone at low percentages using his forward air as an edge guard, and utilizing the auto sweetspot with the up b to steal the ledge from grapplers. Oh, and the up b. Oh god the up b.

1. No, his grabs do NOT have the same range and usefulness for anything. Marth's only real hope with grabs are shieldgrabs.

2. You can't just "ignore" camping. A good projectile user can take Marth on a roller coaster ride all over a level, slowly racking up damage. He is the only one who has to get close, which puts him at a huge disadvantage.

3. It's one thing to say that Marth will get more spike kills this time around; it's another thing to actually try it.

4. Ken Combo fails against a number of characters in this game; ones that are simply too floaty. The players can just DI away. Not to mention airdodging. This is NOT Melee; Marth players can't fair any character across a level and finish with a Ken Combo or d-throw to F-smash. It just doesn't happen. That's the reason why Marth's attacks except the F-smash were buffed: Marth has little choice other than throwing out powerful, fast attacks over and over and hoping the opponent dies. Against a skilled opponent, that's not going to yield the same godly results as in Melee.

This is the reality, I'm afraid. Not to say Marth sucks (not top tier. Not "god tier". High tier. Great, but not devastating) but his weaknesses this time around are already very glaring (and this game has been out for, what, a week?), and they'll only get worse as everybody else gets better.

This is coming from someone who used to main Marth in Melee (alongside other characters. Tried to pick him up in Brawl; just didn't feel right at all. Too floaty, even for Brawl. So, byebye Marth, hello MetaKnight and Lucas), and whose younger brother is a Marth main (and thus, who has played Marth in Brawl and Melee quite a bit).

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you think Marth isn't top tier then you fail to see what competitive Brawl is all about and why Marth can't be anything else, but top tier.

I will break it down for you.

Brawl isn't about combos.

It's about utility moves. You need moves for every single situation. And they need to have good range, speed and priority. You could say that about any fighter, but in Brawl it's super improtant since you can't combo. So your moves need to be fast strong and safe to reliably build damage.

All of Marth's moves are awesome now. And since he spaces at the tip of his blade, it easy to stay safe.

And all of Marth's weaknesses were eliminated.

Melee weakness number 1- Marth struggled to get kills at higher percents: Marth has more kill moves then any character in the game now. All of his smashes kill and are pretty safe.

Melee weakness number 2 - Marth lacked killer aerials: Marth lost his aerial combos, but in return his aerials are stronger and now they have killing power behind them. All his aerials can kill now.

Melee weakness number 3 - Marth lacked a really good close range offense: In melee if you got in Marth's face he didn't have alot of options. Not so anymore. Dancing Blade is as fast as his jab, so the Dancing Blade combo IS his new jab pretty much. Also Dolphin Slash has been buffed to high heaven giving Marth another close range option.

Marth lost a little bit of range, a little bit of grab range lahtough is running grab was nerfed more then his standing grab, loss of grab combos, and loss of aerial combos.

Although loss of combos is mostly due to physics not a personal flaw on Marth's part.

But so what?

Marth has his dancing blade for damage now. Plus Dancing Blade is great since EVERY HIT counts towards attack regeneration. So all his other moves will stay at full strength. Marth can still gimp recoveries. And he kills better then before. Plus he has moves that act as great punishers and he has plenty of options out of his shield.

He ahs all the tools to be top tier in Brawl. How can he not be top tier?

How?

Someone explain it to me.

Camping is not unstoppable and let me tell you guys straight up that M2K really doesn't like dealing with camping. He thinks it's boring and stupid and when he gets camped he tries to rushdown which gets him messed up.

Why can't Marth thorw out fast safe moves?

That's all Brawl is!!!!!!!

Pressure in this game is just throwing out moves on someone's shield that allow you to stay safe.

Grabs are just for positioing advantage and to make people fear shielding.

Also it's very easy to shield stab in this game, since shields get wrecked easily. And Marth also has shield breaker which is more effective this time around. People like to shield camp?

ShieldBreaker is the answer.

Marth has all the tools neccessary to be top tier.

He has too much going for him not to be top tier.

 

[JesiahTEG]

****. Honestly, I just want to say props to EL for the work he's done with Marth. The dude knows him, and the game. Anyways EL, check M2K stuff about Marth thread, I posted something that I needed some insight on.

 

[DaGarbageMang]

Marth has that amazing fair with good fsmash to compliment it with the speed to make it all work = hes number 1

 

[Warlock*G]

Marth has all the tools neccessary to be top tier.

He has too much going for him not to be top tier.

Repeat after me:

"High tier is a lie, high tier is a lie, high tier is a lie, high tier is a lie, high tier is a lie..."

---

I'm just gonna wait to see how this all unfolds. Who cares if, by any chance, Marth isn't top tier, but stoned tier instead? I know I don't.

Of course I'm not the guy who's going to make tiers... I'm just saying is all.

---

Oh, and that Counter still rocks, as does almost every other move. Totally. It's awesome, really. Of course, Marth has everything going for him, but if he isn't top? **** it. I'm not playing characters for their position on a chart.



Edit: as usual, all of this reminds me of something, so here I go with another song that has no relevance to this topic whatsoever:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB6QQIwGC_c

 

[Rebel581]

If you think Marth isn't top tier then you fail to see what competitive Brawl is all about and why Marth can't be anything else, but top tier.

I will break it down for you.

Brawl isn't about combos.

It's about utility moves. You need moves for every single situation. And they need to have good range, speed and priority. You could say that about any fighter, but in Brawl it's super improtant since you can't combo. So your moves need to be fast strong and safe to reliably build damage.

Marth doesn't have everything he needs.

All of Marth's moves are awesome now. And since he spaces at the tip of his blade, it easy to stay safe.

LOL! With that dagger? I felt safe behind Marth sword in Melee. I felt like if I did a fair everything would be okay and nobody could hit me. I feel like a sissy girl that can't take a hit now with Marth. I don't feel safe behind my fair anymore.

And all of Marth's weaknesses were eliminated.

Or made glaringly worse.

Melee weakness number 1- Marth struggled to get kills at higher percents: Marth has more kill moves then any character in the game now. All of his smashes kill and are pretty safe.

Number of kill moves =/= better. You only need 2-3 reliable kill moves really. Too many kill moves means that you're a hit and run game now. And without the range to play hit and run, Marth has trouble doing this sometimes. And none of his smashes are really safe. That hit to range is really really big.

Oh, and good Marth's would make sure you didn't end up at high percents. If you did, uthrow would eventually kill. There were options. The lack of being able to kill at that percentage was different back then, when that percentage wasn't reached often.

Melee weakness number 2 - Marth lacked killer aerials: Marth lost his aerial combos, but in return his aerials are stronger and now they have killing power behind them. All his aerials can kill now.

All of his aerials could kill in Melee. Except tippered fair. Not to mention edgeguarding was a lot easier back then.

Melee weakness number 3 - Marth lacked a really good close range offense: In melee if you got in Marth's face he didn't have alot of options. Not so anymore. Dancing Blade is as fast as his jab, so the Dancing Blade combo IS his new jab pretty much. Also Dolphin Slash has been buffed to high heaven giving Marth another close range option.

I'm pretty sure he had a grab back then. And, no, he didn't lack close range offense. Other people had close range offense. It's like fighting a lance with a sword. You want to fight where your opponent can't fight.

Marth lost a little bit of range, a little bit of grab range lahtough is running grab was nerfed more then his standing grab, loss of grab combos, and loss of aerial combos.

A little bit of range? A little bit of grab range? He didn't lose a little. He lost a lot.

Although loss of combos is mostly due to physics not a personal flaw on Marth's part.

But so what?

Marth has his dancing blade for damage now. Plus Dancing Blade is great since EVERY HIT counts towards attack regeneration. So all his other moves will stay at full strength. Marth can still gimp recoveries. And he kills better then before. Plus he has moves that act as great punishers and he has plenty of options out of his shield.

His dancing blade doesn't combo a majority of the time. He can't gimp recoveries for a majority of the cast. He doesn't kill better than before. He lost his spike pretty much.

He ahs all the tools to be top tier in Brawl. How can he not be top tier?

How?

Lack of projectiles. Lack of range.

Someone explain it to me.

Camping is not unstoppable and let me tell you guys straight up that M2K really doesn't like dealing with camping. He thinks it's boring and stupid and when he gets camped he tries to rushdown which gets him messed up.

Yes, many people have trouble with camping. I do it all the time. Your point?

Why can't Marth thorw out fast safe moves?

That's all Brawl is!!!!!!!

Pressure in this game is just throwing out moves on someone's shield that allow you to stay safe.

Except Marth doesn't have that as much anymore. He doesn't get as much of a reward as he did in Melee when he did that. He also doesn't have a grab (the shield killer) to do that with.

Grabs are just for positioing advantage and to make people fear shielding.

Do you fear shielding when someone grabs you in this game? I don't. I go, "Well, that's 4% extra damage." Then I shield again.

Also it's very easy to shield stab in this game, since shields get wrecked easily. And Marth also has shield breaker which is more effective this time around. People like to shield camp?

ShieldBreaker is the answer.

Marth has a very hard time advancing with that move. And frankly, an uncharged shield breaker is all that works. I'll take the 8% with no knockback over a broken shield. Or I'll spot dodge. Or I'll roll. Or I'll hit you.

Marth has all the tools neccessary to be top tier.

He has too much going for him not to be top tier.

He may have something to be top tier, but we don't know it yet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Alot of what you said is just your opinion with no actual facts.

You don't feel safe using fair?

Who gives two ****s what you feel?

It's a fact that Marth is a very safe character in Brawl.

Marth never had a projectile and he did just fine. That point is invalid.

Shieldbreaker is just for shield whores. I never said spam it did I?

Calling Falchion a dagger just cuz it's range was reduced?

Come on now. Get out of ehre with that mess. Be serious ok?

He still has alot of range.

Dancing Blade combos everytime. This is just an outright lie or you just don't know what you are talking about.

All of his aeriels could kill in Melee? At what percents? 200?

I'm talking about outright dying. Not gimping ok?

Also Marth can gimp still. At the very least he will harass his opponent and score some easy damage as they try to recover. Something is better than nothing.

Too mnay kill moves means you have to hit and run? this made no snese. It means Marth has options. Good options = A better character. Also Brawl IS hit and run so WTF are you talking about?

Marth's smashes are pretty **** safe. I'm not saying they are unpunishable, But if they are tipped and shielded then Marth will be ok.

If they are perfectshielded then that's another story.

Rebel you can do better than this.

Don't disrespect me with this bull**** argument you are presenting.

I have respect for you so if you are gonna argue make sure your points actually make sense.