Marth vs Samus

[JMoney$]

Hey guys, so I've been playing competitively for a couple years now but would only say that I've been pretty decent for the past 6months or so... I seem to do very well vs Fox/Falcon's beating players in tournament of higher skill than me. But I still struggle with this matchup so I'm asking competitive players (playing with your friends does not count) about this problem I have... THE WALL OF FAIRS!!! My friend is a very good Marth player and this is mostly what he does since I kill him on the ground with spaced tilts, jabs, wavedashing oos, cc dtilt, etc. I've gotten both my grapple and up b sweet spot about 90% now... also can punish F-Smash with relative ease... but I can't figure out how to beat the WALL! I know a lot else about the matchup like cc his dash attack, adding spot dodges, jabs, etc. This seems to be the ONE THING that I cannot figure out. I'm thinking Nair oos? which apparently I'm not good at since I always wavedash oos (sometime spot dodge). so yeah HELP is appreciated.

Thanks,

J$ (EASTERN WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY)

 

[Metallinatus]

I don't play at tournaments, sorry, but don't crouch cancel help with approaching through the wall?

 

[Kuikdraw]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-samus-index-thread-updated-3-9-13.333011/

There are a lot of threads linked on this page that talk about the Marth matchup and about Marth's fair in particular. Just scroll down.

 

[JMoney$]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-samus-index-thread-updated-3-9-13.333011/

There are a lot of threads linked on this page that talk about the Marth matchup and about Marth's fair in particular. Just scroll down.

thanks for the link. I wanted a to ask anyways since these are all almost 6 years old now. The meta has changed a bit. But there was some really good advice from Hugs and Plup about using spot dodge, cc(on some moves), and a well timed dash attack to counter this strategy.

 

[JMoney$]

I don't play at tournaments, sorry, but don't crouch cancel help with approaching through the wall?

It can unless they space their fairs perfectly or use dair, (and at higher percents cc doesn't seem to work against the 2nd part of Neutral air either... but maybe that's just me). I think my main problem is I'm always wavedashing back where sometimes I need to hold shield and Nair oos after the 1st fair or cc dTilt is he's coming in too aggressively and not spacing his fairs. Also spot dodge on his dair and dSmashing if I time it right seem to work. I'll try these out next weekly and let you know how it goes.

 

[Litt]

Posts like these make me cringe... what you are asking for is someone to explain to you how to be a better player. Use your mind to expand your game and don't ask others to tell you what to do. What separates Hugs and Plup are their understanding of the game in how they use samus and her tools to take on other characters/MUs. What you are encountering is an im not good enough at the game problem, not a MU problem. Struggle and fight, if you are meant to be better... you will improve through hard work.

 

[343]

It seems the options vs fair-heavy Marth are: (1) stuff it with ftilt/dash attack before the Marth can fair, if he starts jumping from too close; (2) if the Marth is going for a telegraphed max range fair (say he approaching shorthops at a certain distance), outspace it (with wd back or dash back or walk back) and whiff punish, or put yourself in a non-tipper range and cc it; (3) cc non-tippered fairs -> dsmash / dtilt; (4) shield -> upb or nair oos if spaced too close.

The hard part is if he spaces well (in place or retreating fair at tipper range) on your shield. This isn't great for Samus; it's a pretty safe spot for Marth to be in. He has a ton of options depending on whether it's a late or early fair. Think about each option he can do and what things you can do to beat it or put yourself back in a safer situation. Your options oos are roughly wd oos [forward, back, in place] -> something, jump oos [forward, back, in place] -> something [not recommended probably], spotdodge, roll, grab.

Another cute thing you can practice is powershielding their fair -> fsmash / ftilt / dsmash / dtilt. It's hard, but definitely possible to do consistently.

Try watching, for example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbOJmryOtY; it should be instructive, as Duck has to deal with Dart's swing-heavy style.

 

[Litt]

It seems the options vs fair-heavy Marth are: (1) stuff it with ftilt/dash attack before the Marth can fair, if he starts jumping from too close; (2) if the Marth is going for a telegraphed max range fair (say he approaching shorthops at a certain distance), outspace it (with wd back or dash back or walk back) and whiff punish, or put yourself in a non-tipper range and cc it; (3) cc non-tippered fairs -> dsmash / dtilt; (4) shield -> upb or nair oos if spaced too close.

The hard part is if he spaces well (in place or retreating fair at tipper range) on your shield. This isn't great for Samus; it's a pretty safe spot for Marth to be in. He has a ton of options depending on whether it's a late or early fair. Think about each option he can do and what things you can do to beat it or put yourself back in a safer situation. Your options oos are roughly wd oos [forward, back, in place] -> something, jump oos [forward, back, in place] -> something [not recommended probably], spotdodge, roll, grab.

Another cute thing you can practice is powershielding their fair -> fsmash / ftilt / dsmash / dtilt. It's hard, but definitely possible to do consistently.

Try watching, for example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbOJmryOtY; it should be instructive, as Duck has to deal with Dart's swing-heavy style.

You literally spelled out for him how to play, I hold disdane for you for enabling this kind of posting. You literally just have to stick the controller in a figure this stuff out because it is apparent when something works or not.

 

[343]

tbh it was partially for my own benefit: verbalizing how to play like this helps me think about it too

I agree that in the end, you just gotta pick up your controller and try things out though

 

[Metallinatus]

I don't see what is the problem with people sharing match ups wisdom with others.... that is literally the reason why the boards exist.
Plus, it's not like the guy don't know anything about the match up, it's just one part that he couldn't figure out....

 

[Litt]

I don't see what is the problem with people sharing match ups wisdom with others.... that is literally the reason why the boards exist.
Plus, it's not like the guy don't know anything about the match up, it's just one part that he couldn't figure out....

There is a difference in comparing notes in how to approach a match up, but he was asking the MU to be spoon fed to him. Which is exactly what 343 did... in his interpretation of how to approach the MU. You will never see hugs spell out his approach to the MU unless it is a very basic tutorial, these boards are to collect tech and discuss issues. Not teach each other how to become a professional player. That is what your brain is for... I told him to use it if he wants to stop being at his current level and improve.

 

[JMoney$]

Posts like these make me cringe... what you are asking for is someone to explain to you how to be a better player. Use your mind to expand your game and don't ask others to tell you what to do. What separates Hugs and Plup are their understanding of the game in how they use samus and her tools to take on other characters/MUs. What you are encountering is an im not good enough at the game problem, not a MU problem. Struggle and fight, if you are meant to be better... you will improve through hard work.

It's funny you say this when you have literally never seen my Samus or know how good I am. I happen to think I'm pretty freaking good. As in I beat most people who tell me they are good and they tell me.. "oh, I guess I'm not that good at Melee." I'm not saying I'm great cuz I know I'm not but I'm definitely not bad either. Anyways, I asked ONE QUESTION about 1 matchup. It's not that hard. Answer the freaking question or stfu. The point of these boards is to get better right? Then let's do that instead of sitting here bad mouthing other players for trying to figure out a matchup. Don't make posts like this based off of assumptions

 

[JMoney$]

I don't see what is the problem with people sharing match ups wisdom with others.... that is literally the reason why the boards exist.
Plus, it's not like the guy don't know anything about the match up, it's just one part that he couldn't figure out....

Thank you Metallinatus. That IS the point of these boards. I'm not asking somebody to spell out for me how to play. I can do that just fine thank you. I'm asking for how people approach beating Marth Fairs, that's it.

 

[JMoney$]

Where is everybody from, And how are tourney's where you guys are at? Just curious.

 

[JMoney$]

It seems the options vs fair-heavy Marth are: (1) stuff it with ftilt/dash attack before the Marth can fair, if he starts jumping from too close; (2) if the Marth is going for a telegraphed max range fair (say he approaching shorthops at a certain distance), outspace it (with wd back or dash back or walk back) and whiff punish, or put yourself in a non-tipper range and cc it; (3) cc non-tippered fairs -> dsmash / dtilt; (4) shield -> upb or nair oos if spaced too close.

The hard part is if he spaces well (in place or retreating fair at tipper range) on your shield. This isn't great for Samus; it's a pretty safe spot for Marth to be in. He has a ton of options depending on whether it's a late or early fair. Think about each option he can do and what things you can do to beat it or put yourself back in a safer situation. Your options oos are roughly wd oos [forward, back, in place] -> something, jump oos [forward, back, in place] -> something [not recommended probably], spotdodge, roll, grab.

Another cute thing you can practice is powershielding their fair -> fsmash / ftilt / dsmash / dtilt. It's hard, but definitely possible to do consistently.

Try watching, for example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbOJmryOtY; it should be instructive, as Duck has to deal with Dart's swing-heavy style.

Thanks man. That is the point of these boards right? To get better? Anyways, I'll definitely check out the link and let you know what I think. I totally get that the best way to improve is to just pick up your controller and play... I've come a LONG way in 2 years trust me lol. But yeah sometimes I think it's ok to ask the opinion's of others and this happens to be one of those cases.

 

[Litt]

It's funny you say this when you have literally never seen my Samus or know how good I am. I happen to think I'm pretty freaking good. As in I beat most people who tell me they are good and they tell me.. "oh, I guess I'm not that good at Melee." I'm not saying I'm great cuz I know I'm not but I'm definitely not bad either. Anyways, I asked ONE QUESTION about 1 matchup. It's not that hard. Answer the freaking question or stfu. The point of these boards is to get better right? Then let's do that instead of sitting here bad mouthing other players for trying to figure out a matchup. Don't make posts like this based off of assumptions

I read your post and have a grasp of what you think in the marth match up, which transitions to the choices you make as a player. I used to think I was pretty freaking good, but the better I got, the more I learned how wrong I am. So if this is an argument we are going to have, just you saying that you think you are "pretty freaking good", seals your grave. Skill level is all relative, and the better you get, the more you realize you have to learn. Clearly a wall of fairs is all it takes to crumble you as a player and have you running to others for help... despite being "pretty freaking good". That either says a lot about Marth as a character or you as a player, take it as you will. You asked one question, how do i do the match up, which is a very big solitary question, which you need to ponder yourself if you want to make headway playing. Like it or not, the advice I just gave you will be more helpful to you in the long run than anything 343 told you in his unnecessarily enabling post.

"Answer the freaking question or stfu?"
Wow hahah is that the mentality you hold towards all people who you ask for help? It shows how little patience you have for others and your inability to see help when it was given to you. My original post, was not meant to be mean, it was meant to be instructive and motivational. "Struggle and fight, if you are meant to be better... you will improve through hard work." No child likes to hear their parents say, I am taking the training wheels off now, or I am turning off the night light now, but we just go with it and take on the world ourselves because at the end of the day when that random voice actor 99% of us don't know the name of says 3 2 1 GO... we are on our own. Anything 343 or any other samus on here could tell you, wouldn't be something you could not find already posted on these boards or on the internet, aside from their own personal strategy which they have culminated themselves, which you should and could simply observe from watching matches of them. There are countless Marth Match Up threads that have answered your question tried and true, but I am sure you did not look for them otherwise you would not have posted here. What you wanted by your question was being spoon fed and I gave you the advice that would most help you as a player. Take your boot straps and pull yourself up all by yourself, the info is out there don't ask for it.

#LittUp

 

[JMoney$]

I read your post and have a grasp of what you think in the marth match up, which transitions to the choices you make as a player. I used to think I was pretty freaking good, but the better I got, the more I learned how wrong I am. So if this is an argument we are going to have, just you saying that you think you are "pretty freaking good", seals your grave. Skill level is all relative, and the better you get, the more you realize you have to learn. Clearly a wall of fairs is all it takes to crumble you as a player and have you running to others for help... despite being "pretty freaking good". That either says a lot about Marth as a character or you as a player, take it as you will. You asked one question, how do i do the match up, which is a very big solitary question, which you need to ponder yourself if you want to make headway playing. Like it or not, the advice I just gave you will be more helpful to you in the long run than anything 343 told you in his unnecessarily enabling post. Wow hahah is that the mentality you hold towards all people who you ask for help? "Answer the freaking question or stfu?" It shows how little patience you have for others and your inability to see help when it was given to you. No child likes to hear their parents say, I am taking the training wheels off now, or I am turning off the night light now, but we just go with it and take on the world ourselves because at the end of the day when that random voice actor 99% of us don't know the name of says 3 2 1 GO... we are on our own. Anything 343 or any other samus on here could tell you, wouldn't be something you could not find already posted on these boards or on the internet, aside from their own personal strategy which they have culminated themselves, which you should and could simply observe from watching matches of them. There are countless Marth Match Up threads that have answered your question tried and true, but I am sure you did not look for them otherwise you would not have posted here. What you wanted by your question was being spoon fed and I gave you the advice that would most help you as a player. Take your boot straps and pull yourself up all by yourself, the info is out there don't ask for it.

Listen dude. Idk what you're problem is. I'm asking for help yes, and am I as good as I think I am? Probably not. But I like to have that mindset that I can beat anyone. I used to think I was good (typical spacie noob) a few years back. now after 2years of playing Samus I know I have A LOT to learn but I know I'm not terrible. Do I know everything? Clearly not. should I be more humble? Probably. But my point was if you're not contributing to this feed then don't even bother saying anything lol. It's not that hard to NOT be a ****. The guy who beat me happened to win the tourney and I lost to him in winners and losers 2-3. So yes I'm frustrated obviously but to say I'm "crumbling" from the wall of fairs??? Honestly dude, just stop. All I'm looking for is help on 1thing. Not sure why you gotta be a ****...

 

[JMoney$]

Litt you say I have an inability to see help? But that's the thing dude... you're not helping

 

[JMoney$]

Litt but I know what you're saying man. Is this a bit lazy? Maybe. Have I watched many a videos? Yes. But dude... you were pretty rude Tbh. And imo I don't think it's bad to want to discuss this with real people in the now with real opinions. I think we have a different opinion of what these boards are for so let's just leave it at that and move on... But yeah if anybody has more input I'm here to discuss!(:

 

[Litt]

Litt but I know what you're saying man. Is this a bit lazy? Maybe. Have I watched many a videos? Yes. But dude... you were pretty rude Tbh. And imo I don't think it's bad to want to discuss this with real people in the now with real opinions. I think we have a different opinion of what these boards are for so let's just leave it at that and move on... But yeah if anybody has more input I'm here to discuss!(:

Here is my advice...

http://smashboards.com/threads/any-interest-in-a-samus-skype-group.391666/page-2 ....
Mervis created a discord group to acompany this skype group... https://discord.gg/0lutkQ0uHFVssxZO.... if you want to talk to other samuses... START UP A CONVERSATION AND BE ACTIVE. Don't ask silly questions, or for information that is already clearly been laid out by past samuses for people exactly like you.

Litt you say I have an inability to see help? But that's the thing dude... you're not helping... really now? I haven't promoted more thinking and actual expression of what you need help articulating than what you originally posted? Bruh, my advice was to just play the game and think more. If you hit a mental wall, it means that is where you currently are as a player, and it is ok if you go into a match knowing you will not be able to win. I was so outclassed when i first began from the calibur of players I was around, my only goal was to learn and live as long as I could. I was blunt and candid, not rude, and I am known throughout these boards for that. Many samuses have disliked it, but many more have come to see it in a positive light as well. Personally I think i have become less jagged over the years, but at the end of the day: 'm just on here to look for innovation, new tech and see aspiring samuses/sami make something of themselves so I don't have to scroll through tr4sh videos on youtube ever since that abomination of a smash game was released.

If you think what you are discussing here has any value relative to past Marth MU threads, speak about how it is specifically different and what information you could not find so it is more easily accessible to new samuses like you in the future. If you have not taken the time to read through all the Samus vs Marth threads, then perhaps you have better things to do with your time than posting here and asking questions before you have the appropriate knowledge.

*last bit of advice, learn to edit a post instead of making 3 in a row*

#LittTheHellUp

 

[JMoney$]

Litt Fair enough man. I'll take your advice. And I'll try not to be so lazy. (;

#SamusOverEverything

 

[Litt]

@Mervis if only you were ^^^ this open to change when you started here

 

[gmBottles]

I am the OG J$

 

[Litt]

I am the OG J$

Bowser main for melee & pm posting in samus forum... had acc for less than 2 years, has near 3,000 posts (more than even myself) .... I dont think that is OG, i think that is just try hard bud

 

[gmBottles]

Bowser main for melee & pm posting in samus forum... had acc for less than 2 years, has near 3,000 posts (more than even myself) .... I dont think that is OG, i think that is just try hard bud

Lmfao I actually main Fox in Melee. But that was just a joke because we have the same name, I wasn't being serious.

 

[Litt]

Lmfao I actually main Fox in Melee. But that was just a joke because we have the same name, I wasn't being serious.

Ah, well when on a troll mode and you have bowser as main, what else can you expect people to assume? ;p

 

[Donnie_Cash]

Just because someone tells you how to play a matchup doesn't mean that they will know how to play the matchup lol. I could tell him whats good and whats bad, he still needs to implement that.

 

[Litt]

Just because someone tells you how to play a matchup doesn't mean that they will know how to play the matchup lol. I could tell him whats good and whats bad, he still needs to implement that.

Umm I pretty much disagree entirely, if you cannot even execute a MU there is little chance you fully understand it enough to be speaking about it... this is samus here we are talking about, not falcon fox or anyone super fast/technical. General conceptions of intended choice ok... but specifics of what you should be doing, no I don't agree