Marth vs Falco

[GingaNinja]

I've watched most of leon's older videos and all of his most recent ones. Leon's marth vs Gluttony's falco is without a doubt falco favored. (Even though he managed to win one set, he was still getting dominated for most of the match but relentlessly pushed forward and spiked gluttony for the game)
Leon winning but getting dominated http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdaQOthrJ4A
Leon losing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtComtGR4cA

I'd like to figure a few things out.
1. If falco spams ground dodges, he can dodge all of my dancing blades, or dodge then hit me. He can dodge my jabs, I have tried pivot grabbing from both directions but it still gets dodged more than half the time. How do I punish this successfully, Seems I only land attacks 50% of the time when he spams ground dodge.
2. Any tips for the chaingrab on falco? Either the 37% one or the 45% one.
3. Tips for fighting falco.
4. Is there a 0% grab to fsmash on ZeroSuitSamurai (Unrelated to falco)
5. Can I sdi out of Flaco's fair or neutral air?
6. WHY IS LEON GETTING OWNED BY FLACO. Yes flaco. Leon is the best marth in the world!

 

[Mr-R]

the answer is simple.
leons overly agressive playstyle doesn't work against certain characters ( diddy being another one of them )

also what kind of tips do u mean by chaingrabbing ? i didn't get that question

 

[Malcolm.O]

I've watched most of leon's older videos and all of his most recent ones. Leon's marth vs Gluttony's falco is without a doubt falco favored. (Even though he managed to win one set, he was still getting dominated for most of the match but relentlessly pushed forward and spiked gluttony for the game)
Leon winning but getting dominated http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdaQOthrJ4A
Leon losing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtComtGR4cA

I'd like to figure a few things out.
1. If falco spams ground dodges, he can dodge all of my dancing blades, or dodge then hit me. He can dodge my jabs, I have tried pivot grabbing from both directions but it still gets dodged more than half the time. How do I punish this successfully, Seems I only land attacks 50% of the time when he spams ground dodge.
2. Any tips for the chaingrab on falco? Either the 37% one or the 45% one.
3. Tips for fighting falco.
4. Is there a 0% grab to fsmash on ZeroSuitSamurai (Unrelated to falco)
5. Can I sdi out of Flaco's fair or neutral air?
6. WHY IS LEON GETTING OWNED BY FLACO. Yes flaco. Leon is the best marth in the world!

No the best marth in the world is without a doubt Mikehaze (Seeing as he has beaten players like anti and ally kind of hard to say he is not)

But yeah, Leon was being to aggressive at the point

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, I am the best Marth in the world.

Without a doubt.

 

[Mr-R]

No the best marth in the world is without a doubt Mikehaze (Seeing as he has beaten players like anti and ally kind of hard to say he is not)

But yeah, Leon was being to aggressive at the point

ohh boy now u did it

*waits for massive amount of europe fanboys/trolls*

 

[Chuee]

ohh boy now u did it

*waits for massive amount of europe fanboys/trolls*

inb4LeonvsMikeMM@Apex2012

 

[GingaNinja]

When I said tips for chaingrab on failco (the 0% 4xgrab to fsmash) , does it just come down to timing/buffering the grabs ? I have trouble completing the full chain grab,. Also I have a burning desire to punish failco's super fast grounddodging. Is the best thing to do just learn his dodge frames and charge smash face? Falco is an evolutionary joke, he can't even fly. And Mr.Haze's marth is 2000 LATE! I'd put all my marbles on Leon or Mr.Rogers.

 

[Malcolm.O]

When I said tips for chaingrab on failco (the 0% 4xgrab to fsmash) , does it just come down to timing/buffering the grabs ? I have trouble completing the full chain grab,. Also I have a burning desire to punish failco's super fast grounddodging. Is the best thing to do just learn his dodge frames and charge smash face? Falco is an evolutionary joke, he can't even fly. And Mr.Haze's marth is 2000 LATE! I'd put all my marbles on Leon or Mr.Rogers.

What the hell does this mean ?

 

[Lord Chair]

It's terrible Black Eyed Peas.

Also EU>Japan>US

also inb4 leon doesnt go to apex

also im best ike so ijm prolly best marth too cuz chars are really alike they both have sworx just marth faster but ike stronger kk

 

[K@0S]

I'm the best MK and both MK and Marth have swords so I guess I'm the best Marth

 

[MintyFlesh]

Australia > euro > japan > usa

Imo

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

the answer is simple.
leons overly agressive playstyle doesn't work against certain characters ( diddy being another one of them )

also what kind of tips do u mean by chaingrabbing ? i didn't get that question

I don't know what it is about EU players but Ramin and one other guy whose name I can't remember seem to be among the few reasonable and level-headed posters among you guys. The rest of you guys just fan and flame.

Anyways we've acknowledged that Leon is good, without a doubt, but even RAMIN has been noticing lately the drawbacks of Europe's generally overly aggressive play on an engine like Brawl.

IMO Ramin if you perfect your execution and maintain a level head you can be on top again. It's only a matter of time before players like Staco with 0 defensive capabilities and posts like "All American MK's suck vs Marth" start setting themselves back with their own ignorance.


GG's

 

[PEACE7]

Damn Neo is one smart mofo i loved that answer

 

[Shaya]

I'm not sure whether or not this thread is going to end well or go anywhere positive.

 

[Cyzs]

Leon is the best marth in the world!

And then no one answered any of his questions.

Lol.

 

[Lord Chair]

Wow Shaya you disappoint me.

Now you actually allow me to remonstrate.
@Neo

- Aggro is fine in most matchups, it being garbage against Diddy does not mean the entire mindset should be thrown overboard. We've seen what happened to playing defensively against Olimar, yet no one screams you should go all aggro on him (because you know what: 1 event is not deciding).

- Staco plays extremely defensively, I don't know what you're talking about.

- Europeans tend to not post contributory because we rarely see any reason to do so (really, do we have any reason?).

- American Marths suck against MK, not the other way around. American Marths in general tend to play overly defensively. I think it was you who once said camping with Marth doesn't work, it's one of the few things you said that still apply to this metagame.

- Leon is also starting to understand when not to play aggro, he demolished Glutonny's Falco (unrecorded) because he finally decided to play the MU properly. You keep stating that Europe is irresponsibly aggressive, but you judge by watching only what you see online.

- You don't know nearly enough about Europe to judge its metagame. Regardless of what videos you watch, you don't see nearly enough to actually know what's going on. This counts for most, if not all, Americans. People didn't even know who Luigi Player was, even though the man has been a top player since 2008, why do people make so many assumptions?

- You might ask me, well if you have nothing contributory to add, why post?


Because it's hella fun.

 

[Shaya]

Careful with the hurr eureep and durr amerrycar

My locking button is totally warmed, prepped, and very red.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The thing is that while you can criticize Leon for his "overly aggressive" play you also have to keep in mind that he's the only player in Mike's league when it comes to consistent accomplishment in tourney [casually speaking]. He's smart enough a player to understand that being aggressive doesn't always work, it's just that in many cases Marth doesn't seem to have any other choice because of his shortcomings in defense. His dodges and his rolls are just really poor and while Marth has superb OoS options shield alone is too easy an option to cover and if you have Leon's reads in many cases you're better off just attacking anyways.

I'm not blaming Neo for not knowing it but Chair is right. There's a couple of players in Europe that can play really campy if needed be - it's just that Leon and Glutonny are both super-aggressive and they happen to be among the most recorded players in Europe.
Your comment about Staco is out of place though I think. His defensive capabilities are really good and probably up there with Lp and Calzorz but against Marth MK doesn't have a reason to camp if he can just abuse his defensive flaws.

I think Ramin is the only one to speak the full truth about it: While Leon's aggressive playstyle works for him against most opponents some match-ups just can't be played that way [aggressive Falco being one of them]. I can imagine it being really tough to camp against Glutonny though.
In any case I'd say Leon vs Glutonny is not a good representation of how the match-up is ideally played tbh, no matter how good both players are.

Edit: @ Shaya

The discussion so far [minus the inevitable troll posts] has been pretty on-topic and civil. Using two players and discussing their backgrounds to come to a conclusion on a match-up is the kind of discussion that's worth being promoted here imo.

 

[Kuro~]

i really like the way the discussion is oriented in here. It would make a cool permanent thread like nation analysis/general styles/tactics/mu stuff

It'd be cool to take apart what makes each nation unique and try to implement into each others.

 

[LooftWaffles]

I thought it was generally agreed that going aggro against MK is the worst thing Marth could do? SL says hi

 

[etecoon]

against Marth MK doesn't have a reason to camp if he can just abuse his defensive flaws

wtf? neither character can safely approach the other, MK wins mostly because of his edge guarding and stage BS. going nairo knight on marth is not the ideal way to play that MU

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've said playing aggressive against Marth is more effective for MK, not "play like a ****** and run into every attack". Just because you're aggressive doesn't mean you can't be smart. Marth's offensive tools outshine his defensive options quite clearly so keeping him in defense with a smart attacking approach will get you further than trying to camp him, which allows him to use his powerful attacking options. If you play smart and aggressive, opportunities to juggle and gimp Marth will present themselves more often. If you camp him you run the risk of getting hits traded or give him the ground to position himself in tipper range.

 

[GingaNinja]

- Aggro is fine in most matchups, it being garbage against Diddy does not mean the entire mindset should be thrown overboard. We've seen what happened to playing defensively against Olimar, yet no one screams you should go all aggro on him (because you know what: 1 event is not deciding).

-American Marths in general tend to play overly defensively. I think it was you who once said camping with Marth doesn't work, it's one of the few things you said that still apply to this metagame.

- Leon is also starting to understand when not to play aggro, he demolished Glutonny's Falco (unrecorded) because he finally decided to play the MU properly. You keep stating that Europe is irresponsibly aggressive, but you judge by watching only what you see online.

If you could measure aggression/defensive, what percentage of aggression would an optimal marth player want. I'm trying to find my own balance between the two. I know its a rather ambiguous question, so feel free to get as specific as possible or you can say something super general. Hell, I'd even appreciate a riddle.

 

[GingaNinja]

Also, could someone enlighten me on how leon beat gluttony. Or at least a break down of options when falco continues ground dodging. Seen here at 0:27, 1:25, 2:40. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viBN9XbQi9M&feature=related
Love hearing feedback from the smash community, as long as its relevant.

 

[PEACE7]

I'm liking this thread. Also I don't think the right way of playing a MU is written down correctly for any character the way you play any MU IMO depends completely on the player not as much in the character. If you are able to pick up on a persons habits you don't have to play strictly by the way a MU is supposed to be played unless you don't know the person or have never seen him play thats when you resort to MU knowledge its also the way Zex and I agree this game should be played I'm sure there are others who agree and some who will disagree.

 

[duhzex]

I honestly think that this mu is based off of Mu knowledge, but also the falco player you are going against.

Once knowing what the player habits are plus knowing falco then you should be able to atleast do good.
To me the Mu is 50-50 even with the 0 death vs falco.

Marth has a lot of tricks against falco, but falco can also do a lot of damage to marth when falco is on a roll of stringing his moves.

 

[Abel1994]

Not worth watching.

 

[PEACE7]

^ I loled

 

[Abel1994]

Why thank you :D


You know Taki is the one who died...

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Wow Shaya you disappoint me.

Now you actually allow me to remonstrate.
@Neo

- Aggro is fine in most matchups, it being garbage against Diddy does not mean the entire mindset should be thrown overboard. We've seen what happened to playing defensively against Olimar, yet no one screams you should go all aggro on him (because you know what: 1 event is not deciding).

- Staco plays extremely defensively, I don't know what you're talking about.

- Europeans tend to not post contributory because we rarely see any reason to do so (really, do we have any reason?).

- American Marths suck against MK, not the other way around. American Marths in general tend to play overly defensively. I think it was you who once said camping with Marth doesn't work, it's one of the few things you said that still apply to this metagame.

- Leon is also starting to understand when not to play aggro, he demolished Glutonny's Falco (unrecorded) because he finally decided to play the MU properly. You keep stating that Europe is irresponsibly aggressive, but you judge by watching only what you see online.

- You don't know nearly enough about Europe to judge its metagame. Regardless of what videos you watch, you don't see nearly enough to actually know what's going on. This counts for most, if not all, Americans. People didn't even know who Luigi Player was, even though the man has been a top player since 2008, why do people make so many assumptions?

- You might ask me, well if you have nothing contributory to add, why post?


Because it's hella fun.

???


American Marth's suck against MK? You realize that there's essentially only 1 actively competing american Marth right? And that's Mike LOL

Mike is pretty much the only american marth with recent videos online vs any notable MK

Kadaj hardly ever travels, I don't even play, Pierce doesn't practice, Chaz stays in FL only

For you to say Mike sucks against MK (because he's pretty much the staple here for marth vs mk) and is overly defensive is extremely laughable and just goes to show you aren't keen on the aspect of counter defensive strategy, which is understandable because it isn't a large part of European play.

Also I said Staco has 0 defensive capabilities, not that he didn't attempt to be defensive. Just because you try to play defensive doesn't mean you're good at it.

I still stand by my opinion of over excessive aggression. And I think Ramin gonna be shinin' in the near future, watch niccas.

Also, Leon ***** - this truth still remains.

Also #2, camping with the lead as marth is pretty much the only choice you have to play against the mk (at least here). Although I generally believe a camping marth is extremely in effective in most cases, there are a few MU's where you don't really have any other choice because of your opponents shut down options.

Ask kadaj, pierce, mike anyone who has played a variety of MK's an they will tell you the same

 

[Shaya]

I've played a variety of MKs.

Being gay once you have the lead is pretty much a must.
Aggression works, just requires harder reads which are somewhat disproportioned towards MK's advantage (like we can cover the defensive options of MK, just that we have to try harder to do so).

Also Neo, you don't play the game now again? <3

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

no i've been playing, but in terms of relativity i haven't been

as in, i'm not a relevant marth atm and any other "overly defensive" marth's don't even have videos on youtube vs a notable mk besides kadaj.. who played the MU CORRECTLY

so he could only be talking about mike. and mike fights MK on a completely different level than every other marth out - by far

and shaya stop being pretentious, you're well aware of the fact that being the aggressor vs an mk when you have a lead is literally not an option vs any player with reflexes and control

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

The thing is that while you can criticize Leon for his "overly aggressive" play you also have to keep in mind that he's the only player in Mike's league when it comes to consistent accomplishment in tourney [casually speaking]. He's smart enough a player to understand that being aggressive doesn't always work, it's just that in many cases Marth doesn't seem to have any other choice because of his shortcomings in defense. His dodges and his rolls are just really poor and while Marth has superb OoS options shield alone is too easy an option to cover and if you have Leon's reads in many cases you're better off just attacking anyways.

I'm not blaming Neo for not knowing it but Chair is right. There's a couple of players in Europe that can play really campy if needed be - it's just that Leon and Glutonny are both super-aggressive and they happen to be among the most recorded players in Europe.
Your comment about Staco is out of place though I think. His defensive capabilities are really good and probably up there with Lp and Calzorz but against Marth MK doesn't have a reason to camp if he can just abuse his defensive flaws.

I think Ramin is the only one to speak the full truth about it: While Leon's aggressive playstyle works for him against most opponents some match-ups just can't be played that way [aggressive Falco being one of them]. I can imagine it being really tough to camp against Glutonny though.
In any case I'd say Leon vs Glutonny is not a good representation of how the match-up is ideally played tbh, no matter how good both players are.

Edit: @ Shaya

The discussion so far [minus the inevitable troll posts] has been pretty on-topic and civil. Using two players and discussing their backgrounds to come to a conclusion on a match-up is the kind of discussion that's worth being promoted here imo.

there is much much much more to marth's defense than the actual defensive options laid out by the game engine. and once again, this is what i was emphasizing on it not being a large part of your metagame at the moment. marth's rolls, spotdodges, and shield shouldn't even have been a part of your point @_@

 

[_Kadaj_]

Chair do you honestly believe the **** you post dude?

There isn't even a starting point to being to dissect the idiocy of those statements

 

[Shaya]

and shaya stop being pretentious, you're well aware of the fact that being the aggressor vs an mk when you have a lead is literally not an option vs any player with reflexes and control

I never said otherwise. Aggression against a similar skilled MK when you have the lead "is pretty much a must".

 

[_Kadaj_]

What? Shaya that's the complete opposite lol

 

[Shaya]

What? Shaya that's the complete opposite lol

How about the situation that obviously must never ever occur in real life which is your opponent has the percent lead?

 

[_Kadaj_]

So you're telling me going aggro whilst having the lead is smart? Giving them the chance to make a comeback is smart?

But even if it's in neutral standing you don't just go aggro that's dumb, if you lose the lead at that point then he has the chance to sit on his lead and just pick apart your offense.

If he has the percent lead you have to approach him in an effort to regain control over the match, but going aggro will only get you beat out at high end play

 

[Shaya]

Sigh, mass communication fail by meh.

Aggression against a similar skilled MK when you have the lead "is pretty much a must".

Hurr the fail. You should be able to figure out where things went wrong.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I'm not talking about Mks that aren't high end though.

Besides playing the mu that way only to somewhere down the road play a very skilled mk will leave you a tad angry when you realize that that doesn't work at all.