Marth totally has awesome hair.

[Shaya]

Recently I've been doing a lot of frame works, thanks to the pause/debug code, in collecting data for a guide I wish to eventually post on the boards.
One of my first collections were data for grab release metaknight options, and so far I had only done the chain grab and spike (on stage), both things being escapable, but wouldn't be if Marth was just one frame faster (lol).

So in the Q&A thread some discussion was sparked about grab release to spike on non-flat stages, and initially I thought it was on stage, soon after Havokk posted saying he wasn't able to escape a spike, and I initially thought he was insane, well, some testing later...

Video (with me commentating frame by frame): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMPxu1T_VA

So what's important here?

• It is only possible if Metaknight is released to be falling off the ledge.
• Marth must use a MID AIR JUMP, from dashing off the stage, as an on-stage jump is much laggier.
• Marth does a rising down air that is possible to spike meta before can do anything to avoid it.
• Metaknight (from what I can see) will not be able to survive a fresh spike from approximately 50%.

Proper Instructions

1. Grab meta near the ledge.
2. After metaknight is released you can start 'dashing' on frame 28/29 for it to start on frame 30. If you buffer too early you'll walk (If you're a little closer to the ledge, you may even have a larger frame window to start dashing). If you look at the video, you can see the position Marth is in before he can start moving (sword is 'neutral').
3. Dash off the ledge, and be off the ledge by frame 39(?) of the grab release.
4. Continue to move forward (you need to use your aerial momentum here boys).
5. Start a jump, it is important you do this around frame 43/44.
6. You start a dair straight after (perhaps even at the same time), started by frame 47 (i.e. frame 1 of dair is at frame 47; but you can start on frame 45, 46 or 47).
7. Metaknight is spiked on frame 50, 51 or perhaps 52 (52 has meta able to uair/jump, but the spike will hit anyway, you will clash with the uair).

Marth seems to have the best luck if he aims to hit on frame 51, i.e. starting on frame 46. Doing it one frame earlier makes the "spacing" from the ledge more strict... unfortunately.

Why wasn't this found before?
- It's due to Marth's grounded jump taking 6 frames before an attack can start (i.e. a perfectly buffered aerial will have frame 1 on frame 6, the same point you leave the ground), while a mid air jump starts movement on frame 2, but you could be starting any aerial at ANY POINT.

Is this situational?
- Yes.
- Everything is situational. It's not unheard of to grab a character on the ledge, and the spacing for it isn't -so strict- that it's impossible unless you're frame perfect (You have about a 5-6 frame leeway).

How would you grab meta at the ledge?
- Edge guarding, Metaknight does an attack, you shield grab/punish for bad spacing. This could be a a shuttle loop... forward air.. maybe even nair.
- You're the one being edge guarded (totally rare against meta, amirite?) and you punish one slip up with a sexy neo style pivot grab. Metaknight's like the ledge, the opportunities aren't too farfetched.

Is this matchup changing?
- Yes
- No
- Maybe
- It's not like metaknight doesn't have a solution for everything ever, it's god **** metaknight.

Note: In the video above, Marth's position is most likely the maximum range from the ledge Marth can be before you will not be able to reach Meta in time.

DISCUSS! :D

steel2nd has made a comment on Marth's grab release spike on Metaknight:
i just cant get over how sexy your voice is

 

[The Marth]

*claps*

I'll have to try this out. The execution seems extremely... difficult? Oh well at least we know Metaknight isn't 100% god...

Change matchup from 60: 40 Meta to 59: 41 Meta

=D

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Wow fantastic find Shaya! ^_^

If only my youtube wasn't screwed up.

 

[Leafplayer452]

Good stuff, I secondary Marth so this is good news for my Marth against MK

 

[KRiMz0N]

now we just have to practice grabbing mk in such a position

 

[Kishin]

This is pretty cool but as far as match-up changing goes I doubt it. It's difficult to perform and extremely situational. That's just an opinion from a newb though so what do I know? I just care about breaking shields.

 

[_Kadaj_]

dude its not extremely difficult to grab mk or that situational just grab him

i'll try testing out the timing for it this weekend

 

[ChaosKnight]

hey shaya i'll give you a vid of me using it in a match i used it on SAturaday at this tourney before you posted this LOL soo i'll give you an example

 

[KRiMz0N]

dude its not extremely difficult to grab mk

it's difficult to grab mk right off the edge, or even be anywhere near the edge while mk is there

 

[_Kadaj_]

just chain grab releases until you get close to the edge, it'd worked (getting them to the edge) on all the mk's i've played m2k, omni, etc

 

[Shaya]

you know what's the coolest thing about the debug code and spiking metaknight?

the epic teleporting di stuff you can do, and the cloud of smoke that puffs up after, you have enough time to do like a full circle haha.

But here's the crux of things:
Marth has strings of moves that can easily get metaknight close to 50%, hell a grab release to tipper fair on most points on a stage will most likely send meta off and he'll either be under the pressure of getting grabbed, or recover high where we can juggle him with uairs. Joy.

Marth's grab release chaingrab on metaknight isn't real, unfortunately, THEY HAVE EXACTLY one frame to avoid it (via a jump/airdodge BUT NOT BOTH AT THE SAME TIME), but the buffer window for it is large. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT ONE GRAB RELEASE TO A REGRAB WONT WORK.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lol@ gamebreaking.

I'm going to be the realistic pessimist and say even if Meta CAN'T jump away this won't really affect the match up. Meta would already have to be at a decent percentage to be able to not meteor cancel it, chances are he can live through it. You would also have to grab him (something that may be very difficult to do) at a precise point on the stage. You also have to be FRAME perfect, I tested this a LOT back in May and meta was able to escape with jumping away at a certain angle so this may be very difficult to pull off.

A MK who knows exactly what to do in this match can still shut down a lot of your options you usually have otherwise. Fair camping gets tornado'd, approaching with a SHFF whatever can get you dtilted as you land since it outranges your fair, standard fair can get dragon punched, our dtilt isn't safe, etc etc.

One more trick in Marth's arsenal isn't going to change the match up significantly at all. Still 65 35 imo.

/thread....

 

[ChaosKnight]

lolat /thread lol wut?? i dont care if its one frame that one frame is hard to get off :x

 

[Shaya]

/thread....

lol, you didn't read how
a) MK will die at 50%, Meteor cancelling or not
b) You have a 6 frame leeway.

The dair itself has 2-3 frames leeway as well.

So as I addressed steel's points directly through testing, and that you IGNORED them, please don't post like you know something.

It's good, but it isn't great. That is all.

 

[KRiMz0N]

lol, you didn't read how
a) MK will die at 50%, Meteor cancelling or not
b) You have a 6 frame leeway.

The dair itself has 2-3 frames leeway as well.

So as I addressed steel's points directly through testing, and that you IGNORED them, please don't post like you know something.

It's good, but it isn't great. That is all.

/thread....

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lol, you didn't read how
a) MK will die at 50%, Meteor cancelling or not
b) You have a 6 frame leeway.

The dair itself has 2-3 frames leeway as well.

So as I addressed steel's points directly through testing, and that you IGNORED them, please don't post like you know something.

It's good, but it isn't great. That is all.

I wasn't being serious I just wanted to point out how steel totally throw this under the bus. I think it will help the match up. Bu I guess I should have put a smilie after my post to signify that I was joking...I fail at the interwebz oh wells. Good **** man I wasn't trying to rain on your parade or anything I think this is a really good find....grrr more practice =/.

 

[KRiMz0N]

oh does this work on curved stages

 

[Shaya]

Steel was right in the "what MK's options are", but I addressed what was WRONG with it. And this thread shouldn't exactly be about how MK can dtilt your shff fair.

Go fourth and practice, so you can rename yourself "NoWLeGeNdArY"

Krimzon, it could alter the timing depending on where you released metaknight on the stage... like if you release him from a high point you may need to jump earlier or something. Vice versa for low release... maybe.

 

[SuSa]

Thinking I was crazy.....tsk tsk...

I read up on every board, post when I feel its needed, and help the boards I especially like. I have a lot of knowledge, and buffering an air dodge is the first thing I tried.

ps: I was spiked at 60~% and wasn't able to survive...so I guess you're accurate on the death %'s.

Also, depending on the MK, grab release stuff can be relatively common. - I got grabbed 7-8~ times in my last 2 stocks... after the first grab killed me I was FAR more cautious.... (I didn't know Marth had any grab release stuff on MK, I haven't checked the Marth boards in a while....) (and I've realized a lot of people don't LEARN from their mistakes... I faced a pikachu who repeatingly got grabbed by my IC's... using the same tactic... over....and over...)

I think I may have to go Marth dittos vs Marth's :/ my MK got... whats the word... *****? And I don't know any other counters for Marth that I can play at a tournament level.... (by 'counters' I mean the 'not 70:30' matchups... lol)

Also, Marth may be my new MK CP, rather then picking MK.... I really do hate using MK... lol

 

[KRiMz0N]

Krimzon, it could alter the timing depending on where you released metaknight on the stage... like if you release him from a high point you may need to jump earlier or something. Vice versa for low release... maybe.

ah. yoshi's island should be interesting to accomplish this on

i'll check it out

 

[Shaya]

Oh Lord, people picking up Marth for a metaknight counter.

*sheds a tear*.

OKAY, JUST TESTED FOR FRAME 52 OPTIONS.

Metaknight uair: Marth and meta will clash, meta will still be spiked.
Metaknight jump: Marth will spike meta without him moving.

So in total, you have a 3 frame window to dair.
And the frame window for a mid air jump seems to be at least 2 frames, perhaps even more.

 

[SuSa]

Oh Lord, people picking up Marth for a metaknight counter.

*sheds a tear*.

Well...not really counter, but the person I use against him.

and NOT just because of this, and BARELY even because of this.... my MK has such a hard time with Marth... and I play Marth enough to know how to play him... it just seems like a wiser choice.

Because my Snake gets epicly ***** my MK..

I would go IC's, but I get taken to the most ****ed up stages.... (Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, etc.) and I just can't handle those stages with IC vs MK...

I'd go Diddy, but once I lose my momentum, the MK starts to dominate me..

so I'll be giving Marth a chance =p

 

[BacklashMarth]

Oh Lord, people picking up Marth for a metaknight counter.

*sheds a tear*.

Such is the magic of AT's my dear boy. At least we sorta get back our advantage on flat stages...somewhat.

 

[Browny]

--

apparently im blind

 

[GPEternity]

Don't you choose your character after you choose the stage in most tourney rulesets? so couldn't you use IC as a cp and swap out when they pick a gay stage. marth doesn't do much better against MK on rc either i don't think.

 

[SuSa]

I was cocky and stayed IC's.

Turns out Norfair wasn't even a legal stage anyways - didn't find this out until after tourney.

Shows me to read the rules more carefully next time....

Also, I always ban RC anyways.

 

[Albert.]

alright now that we all know about this stuff, DELETE IT! Lets all pretend we don't know about this until it is absolutely neccasary!

on cue all the Marth's in the world will all use this at an important tourney!

we don't want MK to treat us like Ice Climbers!


on a serious note

Does the DB1-Grab RoyR trick work in this situation or is the percent too high?

just thinking of ways to force a grab

 

[Denzi]

alright now that we all know about this stuff, DELETE IT! Lets all pretend we don't know about this until it is absolutely neccasary!

Yeah, we don't want this to end up like the Pika CG, they went to other boards and told them about it.

Keep it a secret!

 

[Shaya]

Advantage is -4. Not guaranteed, but possible.

Btw, incase you didnt notice my edit from my last post/edit of the first post, the window to spike meta is even easier/larger than I thought. Joy to the world.

 

[_Kadaj_]

shaya change the name of the thread to something unsuspecting lol

 

[GPEternity]

DB1 -> anything but DB2 isn't guaranteed in any situation i don't think. your opponent has frame advantage if you stop after DB1 and mk has a blinding dair uair. DB1 followups tend to rely on the opponent being conditioned to only DI when hit with DB and since they don't expect you to stop it they don't react fast enough to stop a quick grab or other attack.

 

[Shaya]

Doing this with x/y Im finding extremely hard.

My strategy is:

Holding Forward (after hopefully starting the dash as soon as possible), soon as you are off the ledge, flick the control stick up slightly (like 45/135 degree angleish [its probably a little steeper]), and press down on the c stick at the same time.

 

[Steel]

just another reason to leave tap jump on noobs

 

[VietGeek]

Umm, Marth having awesome hair is a bad way to hide it.

I flocked to this like it was hen tie on a stick.

Edit- Make it a thread asking how to spike.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Hey Veit, do have another tag called iJohn by any chance?

 

[VietGeek]

Hey Veir, do have another tag called iJohn by any chance?

I did...

why?

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I thought I played you on Wi-fi I couple weeks ago.

That was fun. =P

 

[Remzi]

Well...not really counter, but the person I use against him.

and NOT just because of this, and BARELY even because of this.... my MK has such a hard time with Marth... and I play Marth enough to know how to play him... it just seems like a wiser choice.

Because my Snake gets epicly ***** my MK..

I would go IC's, but I get taken to the most ****ed up stages.... (Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, etc.) and I just can't handle those stages with IC vs MK...

I'd go Diddy, but once I lose my momentum, the MK starts to dominate me..

so I'll be giving Marth a chance =p

You'll more than likely be moving on to your next character soon enough.

Such a frustrating matchup....

 

[VietGeek]

I thought I played you on Wi-fi I couple weeks ago.

That was fun. =P

Probably not. You are from WC and me from EC. The lag would be unbearable. Plus I rarely play vBrawl anymore. It reminds me of...

dthrow chaingrabs.

 

[SuSa]

You'll more than likely be moving on to your next character soon enough.

Such a frustrating matchup....

It's a frustrating matchup for everyone... I'm picking the people I know can go decent with him.

I tried my worst character (DK) and had some epic lulz. I got *****.

So I tried my main, Snake - got ***** still.

So I went to Diddy, did OK but wasn't as consitant as I'd like to be.

So I went IC's, did great until I got CP'd with some meta-spam-any-move-and-win stage.

So now I guess I'll try Marth?

(If anything, it'll help my Marth game, which I've been neglecting <3 hence being utterly dominated by a Marth....and Junk, if only you grab released me in those tourney matches... you would have convinced me sooner xD)

PS: I'm running out of characters T_T and I really don't want to have to use MK for 2 matchups (or against anyone 'out of my league....') (I want MK banned <_< btw... I just use him when I can't think of a counterpick - and Marth does decent against everyone BUT MK.... so instead of choosing MK I could go Marth for matchups I can't think of a counterpick to... so this is sort of a win-win at the moment...)