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Marth Social Thread
- Thread starter Muhti
- Start date
Only on floaties, and it's situational. In general, DI into Marth on Fthrow leads into more hits. DI away can set up for early tipper Fsmash kills, but the higher % they are the better it gets. Especially if you are close enough to the edge, like barely any room for running, because Marth won't have the time to get out there and hit you. At higher %, if you DI in you avoid tipper Fsmash and some of those hard hits easier but are more open to Fair Uair or occasionally DJ moves. It also depends because say Marth can't directly hit you if you DI in, but he can remain very close to you. Trying to recover in that spot, if you don't want to be directly above or diagonal to Marth, it's really hard. If you're someone more horizontally orientated, it can be much better to DI away and out there to get some space to mix up DJ and Upb.
It's all kinda complicated, and depends on character position and DI. In general though, DI in leads to some sort of hit easier. Sometimes that's better than risking the tipper, and sometimes it allows you to still be hit by Fair but not in a threatening way (Marth has to jump near straight up/DJ up and land it, without forward momentum he would have from dashing and carrying you offstage if you DI'd away). It can also be good in situations where you are going to get hit regardless, but DI away might lead into a tipper or Dair barely offstage and DI in will only be a Fair or two, Never a kill.
It's all kinda complicated, and depends on character position and DI. In general though, DI in leads to some sort of hit easier. Sometimes that's better than risking the tipper, and sometimes it allows you to still be hit by Fair but not in a threatening way (Marth has to jump near straight up/DJ up and land it, without forward momentum he would have from dashing and carrying you offstage if you DI'd away). It can also be good in situations where you are going to get hit regardless, but DI away might lead into a tipper or Dair barely offstage and DI in will only be a Fair or two, Never a kill.
Nike.
Smash Hero
If they DI into you by the ledge, though, it's a free spike.
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
I play a lot of Dedede too, I think mine's pretty good. It mostly has experience versus a really campy Fox, which I think is excellent experience as I've had a lot of focus on D3's neutral game. I wouldn't say he goes even or beats half the cast at all, and while his edgeguarding is godlike, it's not what matters most in a matchup. I think Sheik beats the living crap out of him, as does Diddy and maybe even Squirtle. I should really start uploading my matches.
Dedede probably does do better vs Marth than Ganon, but all I meant to point out by that is that the matchups are comparable in difficulty for Marth.
Edit: Oh, there's a-whole-nother page and this is completely off topic now. lol
Dedede probably does do better vs Marth than Ganon, but all I meant to point out by that is that the matchups are comparable in difficulty for Marth.
Edit: Oh, there's a-whole-nother page and this is completely off topic now. lol
Man_In_The_Mirror
Smash Rookie
Also, an interesting thing about this matchup, the 2 characters fighting both have 5 letter names that start with Mar.
But back on topic, Ken combos feel so much smoother in this game
BRLNK88
Smash Ace
How does Marth board feel about Marth/Link now?
I mained them both in Melee, always thought Marth had at least a 65:35 there.
Now it feels closer to 55:45.
I mained them both in Melee, always thought Marth had at least a 65:35 there.
Now it feels closer to 55:45.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
slight advantage to link
in a nutshell link's power trumps marth and his range competes with marth, but thank god marth is faster than him and can abuse his mobility/speed
basically abuse his risky oos options and grab punish him hard
imo approaching is the hard part, links shieldgrab basically nullifies most of marth's approaches, bombs and boomerang is kind of annoying too. most of the time i just try to do something past his shield and wait to punish whatever he does oos
up b is kind of easy to punish, just shield, wdoos and f/dthrow him and reap your rewards
grab is kind of easy just don't go for anything too much just grab him back or something
his nair is fast and but you should always stay away from being in front of his shield
marth:link is more of a positional battle than a swordfight i think, you want link by the edge, offstage, or in the air
it's hard for marth if you want to go for comboez so you pretty much have to get him in a vunerable position (in the air where basically everything he does is punishable, offstage or by the edge because bombs boomerang shieldgrab upboos and other typical link stuff is way more risky when he doesn't have center stage)
haven't played much of this matchup in 2.5 (this is mostly 2.1 stuff) so i don't know how much link has changed but i know marth is a bit better because of his dd so it's probably a little easier
in a nutshell link's power trumps marth and his range competes with marth, but thank god marth is faster than him and can abuse his mobility/speed
basically abuse his risky oos options and grab punish him hard
imo approaching is the hard part, links shieldgrab basically nullifies most of marth's approaches, bombs and boomerang is kind of annoying too. most of the time i just try to do something past his shield and wait to punish whatever he does oos
up b is kind of easy to punish, just shield, wdoos and f/dthrow him and reap your rewards
grab is kind of easy just don't go for anything too much just grab him back or something
his nair is fast and but you should always stay away from being in front of his shield
marth:link is more of a positional battle than a swordfight i think, you want link by the edge, offstage, or in the air
it's hard for marth if you want to go for comboez so you pretty much have to get him in a vunerable position (in the air where basically everything he does is punishable, offstage or by the edge because bombs boomerang shieldgrab upboos and other typical link stuff is way more risky when he doesn't have center stage)
haven't played much of this matchup in 2.5 (this is mostly 2.1 stuff) so i don't know how much link has changed but i know marth is a bit better because of his dd so it's probably a little easier
D
Deleted member
Guest
I never thought that Link beat Marth in 2.1 or anything else. Even Demo 1. I thought marth always had the easy aerial combos on him, I mean come on. You can just fair him forever.
Either that or the people I played like Xeven are just REALLY BAD.
Either that or the people I played like Xeven are just REALLY BAD.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
how did links stuff get nerfed?
BRLNK88
Smash Ace
I think his boomerang is the only thing that got nerfed, which is actually kinda significant.
Before a point blank hit knocked the opponent up like Falco's shine, which led to amazing combos. Now its like an average projectile.
If they put it back in the next demo it should change things.
I still hate fighting Marths on Battlefield or Yoshi's, and I DESPISE Marth dittos.
Link is basically my answer to Marth.
Xeven was alright with Link. I never thought that was one of his better characters: he shoulda stuck with Pit and Ike and I'm glad he's playing Pit it seems.
From what I was reading (and I dunno if it's true or not), but Link's grab also got nerfed somehow. Like, it doesn't grab people from the air as well? So his CG doesn't last as long and stuffing approaches with grab got harder. Again, I've not tested it. I like TL instead of Link so I haven't bothered, but that along with the boomerang would be significant enough changes imo. The CG part not vs Marth, but stuffing approaches from the air with it. So Fair/Nair stuff is harder to beat by just grabbing.
BRLNK88
Smash Ace
The CG is still there vs certain characters, but yes, they did remove some of his grab boxes.
I think if they restore both that and the 2.1 boomerang he has the potential to be up there in the tier list.
Bomb jump is now also easier with AGT and more effective thanks to stronger bombs.
atm though I also do prefer TL, though I hate that he has a miserable time recovering from short range where he can't AGT his bombs (and is too far to tether the ledge). I hope the backroom comes to their senses and boosts his up-B distance to be the same as YL.
I think if they restore both that and the 2.1 boomerang he has the potential to be up there in the tier list.
Bomb jump is now also easier with AGT and more effective thanks to stronger bombs.
atm though I also do prefer TL, though I hate that he has a miserable time recovering from short range where he can't AGT his bombs (and is too far to tether the ledge). I hope the backroom comes to their senses and boosts his up-B distance to be the same as YL.
The main problem with Bomb jumping I find with TL, is that he doesn't address the horizontal aspect of recovering because his bombs don't "push" him towards the stage naturally. When Link does his bomb jump, the bomb explodes and his body goes towards the stage. He blows up and moves that way. When TL does it, the bomb explodes and he just kinda moves up with each multi hit. He doesn't get tossed a direction, so it doesn't help you much for trying to shift towards the stage.
BRLNK88
Smash Ace
I do agree that's an issue and have brought it up on the TL board. Unfortunately I don't think theres much they can do about that as the way Toon's bombs are is necessary for his combos. Simple solution would be to just boost his up-B distance...
Generally the best idea is to just AGT the bombs as much as you can before attempting a bomb jump. The mini AGT "jumps" will at least give you some horizontal.
From what tournament vids I've seen thus far, the evidence suggests a boosted up-B would go a long way in his viability.
Generally the best idea is to just AGT the bombs as much as you can before attempting a bomb jump. The mini AGT "jumps" will at least give you some horizontal.
From what tournament vids I've seen thus far, the evidence suggests a boosted up-B would go a long way in his viability.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I know DB is different/buffed but it seems really good now. Not sure but the 3rd hit of side side side DB seems to be killing much sooner than in melee. It also seems to be your best killing option (at around 110%) if you're not trying to set up a tipper or edge guard.
Possibly a consistent killing move
Possibly a consistent killing move
D
Deleted member
Guest
We can do that, do you have a USB 3.0 plug in on your brains motherboard?
dair less land lag. Db improved. Brawl techs -pivot grabs dacus/boost grab. Ledge jump fair ftw. Usmash tip kills. Tipper on fsmzxh down a little.
yes
Pm devs have a hard on for falco but not so much marth
Pm devs have a hard on for falco but not so much marth
not sure. They gave him brawl ftilt and jab and all his brawl techs
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Retreating SH wavebounce shield breaker seems cool not sure how viable but it's cool.
The idea is to retreat/dash backwards, SH, and then wavebounce the B attack.
I've gotten a couple falcon-esque tech chases off of wavebounce shield breaker but too bad Marth doesn't have tech chase set ups. Dair could be better for chasing tech rolls though.
(Falcon-esque in the sense that you jump right before your opponent tech rolls or rolls from the ground [you basically have to call the roll or be fast] if the opponent sees you jump at or past them on the ground, they are likely to tech roll away from you/in the opposite direction. You can then reverse the shield breaker and hit them. Similarly, after the first jump Falcon can DJ backwards and land a falling reverse knee as soon as the opponent is done rolling.)
If you are very close to the enemy (close enough so that any given hit won't tipper)
DB side -> up ->side can kill at around 110% depending on stage position with not so good DI. It's the most consistent by far (compared to side->down->side and side->side->side)
At worst it'll put you in a very easy edge guarding situation.
The the people I play against don't SDI though so maybe side -> up ->side is easier to escape then I am lead to believe even when you are up close.
The idea is to retreat/dash backwards, SH, and then wavebounce the B attack.
I've gotten a couple falcon-esque tech chases off of wavebounce shield breaker but too bad Marth doesn't have tech chase set ups. Dair could be better for chasing tech rolls though.
(Falcon-esque in the sense that you jump right before your opponent tech rolls or rolls from the ground [you basically have to call the roll or be fast] if the opponent sees you jump at or past them on the ground, they are likely to tech roll away from you/in the opposite direction. You can then reverse the shield breaker and hit them. Similarly, after the first jump Falcon can DJ backwards and land a falling reverse knee as soon as the opponent is done rolling.)
If you are very close to the enemy (close enough so that any given hit won't tipper)
DB side -> up ->side can kill at around 110% depending on stage position with not so good DI. It's the most consistent by far (compared to side->down->side and side->side->side)
At worst it'll put you in a very easy edge guarding situation.
The the people I play against don't SDI though so maybe side -> up ->side is easier to escape then I am lead to believe even when you are up close.
Marth is broken tech chasing if you abuse pivot grabbing.
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,189
I have never played Project M but have played a fair bit of Brawl and Melee. Marth is my main and i;m going to be playing project m in a week. What changes were made to Marth in project m? Is he like his Melee version now? With the longer grabs, longer sword, easier tippers, worse b's, side b being good for recovery. Etc?
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
his fsmash is exactly the same as melee both in positions and knockbackdair less land lag. Db improved. Brawl techs -pivot grabs dacus/boost grab. Ledge jump fair ftw. Usmash tip kills. Tipper on fsmzxh down a little.
to correct this a little, it's brawl ftilt and jab animations, but still melee kb/rangenot sure. They gave him brawl ftilt and jab and all his brawl techs
Amazerommu
Smash Lord
How do you wavebounce shield breaker?
Also on the subject of improving Marth, I think he's fine the way he is, but I agree he has much less KO potential... or rather it takes much more work/effort than pretty much any other character currently in Project M. What I think would do the trick for Marth is a slightly less picky tipper, and about the same increase in knockback on all his tip attacks. I think his non-tipped attacks are fine because they make for excellent Ken combos and his B-attacks, especially Dancing Blade are spot on imo.
Also on the subject of improving Marth, I think he's fine the way he is, but I agree he has much less KO potential... or rather it takes much more work/effort than pretty much any other character currently in Project M. What I think would do the trick for Marth is a slightly less picky tipper, and about the same increase in knockback on all his tip attacks. I think his non-tipped attacks are fine because they make for excellent Ken combos and his B-attacks, especially Dancing Blade are spot on imo.
Amazerommu
Smash Lord
Oooooooh is that how I sometimes randomly boost backwards and turn around with Link's arrows? I was wondering how that happened. Sometimes I'd dash away from the enemy, shorthop and quickly in midair push B and the opposite direction to turn Link around as he shot the arrow. Instead sometimes he 'bounces' toward the them... I guess that's why it's called 'wavebouncing.' It all makes sense now! I'm gonna try practicing that with Marth then. It seems like it could be a useful counter.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I disagree with absolutely everything in this post. I think that Marth is pretty average in terms of relative goodness compared to the rest of the cast, but I also think he's done exactly perfect by the development team and shouldn't be changed at all. The character is stupidly dangerous pretty much all the time if the player knows what he's doing and the damage doesn't matter at all aside from some corner cases in the neutral game where you want to play around crouching without grabs.
Marth is worse in this game because a good portion of the brawl characters retained/gained attributes that Marth's stage control doesn't easily handle. For example, it's hard for Marth to exploit things like unusual air movement, better recoveries all around, or dangerous air to air trades. That said, he can probably do it and I just haven't seen a player yet that knows how. Myself included. I haven't seen anything yet that the character actually loses to.
"Play to win" is a horrible approach to the game.