Marth owns me, help?

[Binx]

Hey guys, that same Marth from before is owning me, only now he is really really good and I am tons better but not as good, also Marth has got to be the hardest/second hardest match. If they space their fairs properly can it be punished? I saw Ken do it to Chu and my friend does it to me. I cant seem to really find a way around it, sometimes I can get a roll in and get behind him, he pretty much never gets close enough to shield grab, and I cant seem to time wavedashes correctly to get to him as soon as he touches the ground, he does this wierd thing where he uses Utilts right after he lands sometimes, he is pretty good at mixing up when he does it and when he doesn't, if he does choose to do it and I don't predict that he will then I am above him and he basically gets 50-80 damage or a kill against me before I can touch the ground again, I can't seem to time wavelands or airdodges correctly to get away from him when he is below me.

Also I have a lot of trouble countering d-tilts, if I am close enough and at low damage I can CC into a grab but other than that I have tons of trouble with it.

Hope to get some vids up soon.

 

[choknater]

Yeah, I feel your pain. This matchup is way too hard. I can't really give any counter strategies against longass sword but I can tell you this: make every hit count. Every Marth, no matter who, will mess up sometimes with a whiffed hit or grab. I try to really pay attention to those and then penetrate with a wd grab/dsmash or a dash attack into combo. Marth isn't too hard to combo, and nairs and uairs are very effective as long as you're sure they will hit and he can't get away from it.

Dthrow, fsmash, popo wd fsmash is great at low %. Crazy knockback when midstage, and it should add up to a good 35% or so. Dthrow usmash is even better if you wanna combo.

Infinite? Sure, if you swing that way. Hell, it's Marth, might as well.

Best of luck to learning this matchup. How to win it probably can't be explained in words by anyone (but Wobbles. Good at explaining things, lol.)

 

[Xephalon]

well i just thought of something..WD into marth's tipper range ,shield, he'll fsmash WD forward and grab to a chain grab, wobble, or just simply kill him

 

[RaynEX]

Fair and Dilt, **** ICs.

If he lcancels the fair into a dtilt, repetitively...its even worse. Your only option...SHEIK!

-that is all.

 

[Smasher89]

Try force him to F-smash, then punish with shield to wavesmash/grab, and if he´s playing to defensive.
WD backward to ice blocks might be the thing you need, forcing the no projectile char to move forward, or get more damage, not keeping as defensive spacing I guess...

I think I´ve managed to like, CC the marths dtilt then dashgrab, it´s really hard with the timing but is possible from what I´ve learned, but it might be as hard as shieldgrabbing a shieks Ftilt...

 

[dj asakura]

I know this is probably pretty obvious but it's REALLY helpful in the Marth matchup.

mindgames.mindgames.MINDGAMES

I play Marth's a lot and I've been able to get in easy wavesmashes and wavegrabs because i dashdance or dash then wavedash back and the wavedash forward. If you can get the Marth to predict wrong, you should be able to get AT LEAST 35% to 40%

Also, something I've started using a lot (and not just on Marth) is from a grab facing towards the stage. Have Nana full jump forward and d-air. I'm sure a lot of you know that this can put the Marth above or beind you (messes up DI a lot too) and have Popo f-smash towrds the side. You mess up their DI and can get them off the stage where we have plenty of options to stop recovery and get the stock.

That's just what has worked for me but mindgames are always VERY key in this match. Good luck

 

[Binx]

Try force him to F-smash, then punish with shield to wavesmash/grab, and if he´s playing to defensive.
WD backward to ice blocks might be the thing you need, forcing the no projectile char to move forward, or get more damage, not keeping as defensive spacing I guess...

I think I´ve managed to like, CC the marths dtilt then dashgrab, it´s really hard with the timing but is possible from what I´ve learned, but it might be as hard as shieldgrabbing a shieks Ftilt...

He does NOT forward smash unless it is gauranteed, period, he never gets within shield grab range on a fair, the laggiest attack he uses without a 100% hit is his Utilt, and I have a lot of trouble approaching it (he doesn't spam it, so it isnt as simple as predicting the second one and punishing, its usually a "random" one after a fair.)

Yeah, I feel your pain. This matchup is way too hard. I can't really give any counter strategies against longass sword but I can tell you this: make every hit count. Every Marth, no matter who, will mess up sometimes with a whiffed hit or grab. I try to really pay attention to those and then penetrate with a wd grab/dsmash or a dash attack into combo. Marth isn't too hard to combo, and nairs and uairs are very effective as long as you're sure they will hit and he can't get away from it.

Dthrow, fsmash, popo wd fsmash is great at low %. Crazy knockback when midstage, and it should add up to a good 35% or so. Dthrow usmash is even better if you wanna combo.

Infinite? Sure, if you swing that way. Hell, it's Marth, might as well.

Best of luck to learning this matchup. How to win it probably can't be explained in words by anyone (but Wobbles. Good at explaining things, lol.)

I am not very good at wobbling yet, but I know what you mean about making every hit count, the dthrow fsmash is awesome, I can rarely hit with the second one, are there percents where this is gauranteed? Dthrow usmash, and dthrow ndair pdsmash/fsmash is one of my favorites in this match up too.

I used to dash dance and do "random" blizzards into free grab combos, but he is pretty good at recognizing the frame nana starts and gets away, on levels with platforms once he gets me above him I am practically dead. It sucks.

well i just thought of something..WD into marth's tipper range ,shield, he'll fsmash WD forward and grab to a chain grab, wobble, or just simply kill him

There isn't really a Marth chaingrab but other than that he also doesnt Fsmash unless I am set up from a fair or from a recovery.

- I am wondering if there is a way to get nana inside of his sword so he has to swing early and then jump in with a nair or something. Maybe a way to make both ICs dash attack but in such a way to where the Marth has to be defensive to avoid being hit and can't just swipe you away.

Also anyone who suggests Ice blocks probably doesnt play against very good Marths, he can jump them or swipe them very easily, at long range its stalling at best, at close range its asking to be killed, it is semi usefull for making him go certain trajectories when he is recovering, but thats the only practical use I can find for it, His sword goes so low during a fair you aren't even safer underneath him unless you are using a uair, which is impossible when he short hops.

There just aren't any effect approaches or defenses to his approach it seems.

 

[Xephalon]

you can desynch ice blocks to jumping nana blizzard to stop marth for a while then have popo jump in with a grab, or smash

 

[Binx]

you can desynch ice blocks to jumping nana blizzard to stop marth for a while then have popo jump in with a grab, or smash

No you cant, the blizzard doesnt start hitting until frame 13 or something thats easily enough time for marth to fair nana, I've tried this.

Any advice wobbles?

 

[Wobbles]

Umm... well, sorry for the bad news, but fighting Marth is hard

Fortunately, there are methods and tricks.

First off, his d-tilt is really good, but you have a simple answer to it, which is SHFFL'ed F-air. It requires moderately good spacing to achieve, but you can hop over the tip with your f-air. Odds are he'll CC and you can have a free d-smash, jab grab, or tech-chase.

It's also possible to wavedash in from a distance and grab him to punish when he misses, but you need to predict both the spacing and timing of the tilt, as well as execute a long wavedash. I don't think it's worth it to try this, really.

His f-airs are the devil, but again, spacing and timing is how you can beat him.

First off, the f-air is punishable as long as it barely misses you. You can slip in with dash attacks and grabs, or if you're really sneaky, wave-smashes. Another trick is to use long wavedashes into shield to try and make him land a deep hit on your shield. This reduces hit stun and almost guarantees a shield-grab.

His f-smash is really good. The answer is do your best to shield it, then wavedash from your shield to punish. Any Marth that uses the f-smash too much will lose to you purely from grabs.

His grab game is strong, but defeatable. The hard part about it is that he has massive range on the grab and your shield is very important to you as an IC player... but if you keep a couple tips in mind, you can probably punish his grabs pretty well.

1) If he grabs Nana, smash him or grab him during lag. You can shield grab his throws if you're in close enough.

2) If he grabs YOU... keep shielding with Nana and have HER shield grab instead. If he throws you anywhere but up, you should recover soon enough to combo off her grab.

His forward+b is really good. Fortunately, the first hit or two are susceptible to crouch canceling. You can get CC'ed grabs if he only decides to do the first hit, or CC into your shield and a shield grab if he keeps going. Remember that the different forward+b's make him move around a lot, so you need to consider where his body goes when he does the different attacks. Sometimes you can grab and the ending animation will pull him or push him out of reach. And they hit in weird places on your shield too, so watch out for that as well.

I also strongly believe that blizzard is one of your best friends. Try and have Nana blizzard from rolls and dodges, have her Nanapult to a) land blizzard hits and b) act as bait that lets you land whatever opener fits the situation.

I don't really have a good method for edgeguarding him, but I'm toying with some weird ideas ATM. I'll post about them if they wind up panning out.
Does this help a little? It's very much a spacing battle and that's hard considering Marth's reach, but I believe it to be winnable.

 

[Binx]

Awesome thank you so much wobbles your da man.

 

[N1c2k3]

To sum it all up: Grab him...

 

[PB&J]

everthing that wobbles said is the exact way i play marths,make sure u throw some dash attacks in there when he will least expect it and keep him in the air with u airs........when i edge gaurd good marth players i make sure i use ice blocks for he can't sweet spot the ledge..sometimes they kill him but thats only sometimes,but make sure to fsmash after the ice blocks or grab him when u have nana with u,but usually the marths kills my nana so i play him usually with just popo which is even harder,but im starting to win with just popo lately..anyway use the blocks to edgeguard..they are your friends

 

[Binx]

Im not very good at perfect wavedashes, I think thats part of the reason I cant time it right to get inside and grab him when he fairs, I do medium wavedashes almost always I think I should just practice those. Also Wobbles new shield trick might help me punish some more fairs than usual.

 

[Kjdjy]

Fair and Dilt, **** ICs.

If he lcancels the fair into a dtilt, repetitively...its even worse. Your only option...SHEIK!

-that is all.

If you start playing marth against me im going to kill someone. Potentially you.

 

[Lixivium]

Im not very good at perfect wavedashes, I think thats part of the reason I cant time it right to get inside and grab him when he fairs, I do medium wavedashes almost always I think I should just practice those. Also Wobbles new shield trick might help me punish some more fairs than usual.

You don't have to do perfect wavedashes, you just have to time them correctly. Also, you can do WD -> jab -> JC grab and it'll usually catch him.

Shield tricks don't help against Marths unless he spaces poorly.

 

[Binx]

So if Marth misses his L cancel but spaces properly he is still safe from a wavedash out of shield? I am sure he could jump in time to avoid a grab but I could short hop a nair or uair or something.

As far as the timing for the fair grab goes I guess I just need to find the correct timing cause I can do perfect wavedashes now and still cant seem to land it, I can dash dance grab from fairs when I am fox so I am not sure why I cant get it down with ICs, I think I might start from too far away and he just does a late fair instead of a double fair.

Maybe he'll tell me lols.

EDIT: Yeah Lix your right, Jab grab works sometimes but he is pretty good at CCing into poke to stop it, sometimes it works but if he knows he is in a position where I can jab he CCs pretty often, he is also fairly good at mixing it up with spot dodges and rolls and things so he is hard to predict. He really is just more experienced and better than I am, I actually beat most other Marths I play other than the top 3 in my state who pretty much all main Marth and are all better than I am anyways.

 

[Wobbles]

You probably can't dash dance into grab with IC's because they're bigger and slower. That means you have to be farther away from the sword to avoid it, and you have to have to run farther in to get the grab.

I'm also sad, because my favorite strategy used to be WD -> Jab -> Grab, and it's pretty much obsolete. Can't do it against a Samus, Sheik, Peach, Falco, Fox, or Marth because I get CC'ed into ouch. The only way to make those work is to catch the enemy right out of a jump where they can't short hop, or right as they're landing.

I still don't *know* what to do against Marth though. I'm not sure how to fight his f-airs... his d-tilts are beatable with short hopped f-air if you space it, you can shield grab or down-smash him out of his grabs, CC his forward+b into grabs or rolls, and shield his f-smash into wavedash out of shield. Once you can do all that, it just becomes figuring out what he plans to do... unfortunately, I'm not sure what to do about the f-airs. If he retreats with them, he becomes very very safe. If IC's weren't so slidy, I'd recommend playing attrition using CC's against them, just because one f-air compared a grab or smash is way more advantageous.

If he APPROACHES with f-air, then dash dance grab becomes viable, but if he stays in one spot or just retreats using it I can't seem to beat it. I suppose you could WD in with your shield up and try to get him to push himself to the edge of the stage where you can try to RPS some of his above options.... or use the double shield to mess up his timing on SHDF-air, or his double jump after... basically anything to fluster him and force him to pick options you can easily punish.

I do know that if he does a RISING f-air and you space it you can get dash attacks, so that's something to keep in mind.

At the moment, I have an idea that I'm working on, so I'll let you guys know how it pans out.

 

[Dynamism]

All that Wobbles said should be applied. It is the best combination of tactics to defeating (or almost) a Marth. I have one thing to say. More of a tid-bit

Something I do ocasionally against Marth and other spacers, is just low dodge to them. Basically a WD but not towards the ground. This won't leave you vulnerable to attacks and leaves you facing them unlike a roll would.
For the most part, just dash and False-WD to them just before or when you're just inside their f-smashes range. When you do this, a Marth will usually react normally, whether its a f-smash or d-tilt. This can bring you right beside them with almost no lag. Perfect for setting up a grab or jab.
You can also short hop towards them and dodge angled towards the ground at their feet, you can get there before their u-tilt or f-smash/tilt is finished its recoil.
Performed perfectly will make it look more like a dodge along the ground and lead you straight to them within grabbing range (no WD or dash necissary)
With Jiggs, this sets up rest everytime XD

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

I don't know how to use Ice Climbers but by using Bowser I just recently found that Crouch Canceling is very good against Marth. If he Jabs you then just Crouch Cancel and retaliate with a Down Tilt.

EDIT: I hope it helps. I hate Marth just as much as you do.

 

[Lixivium]

Something I do ocasionally against Marth and other spacers, is just low dodge to them. Basically a WD but not towards the ground. This won't leave you vulnerable to attacks and leaves you facing them unlike a roll would. Performed perfectly will make it look more like a dodge along the ground and lead you straight to them within grabbing range (no WD or dash necissary)

Please learn the technical terms; it is very hard to tell what you're talking about. I assume by "low dodge" you mean triangle jumping (short hopping, airdodging low and parallel to the ground but staying in the air).
Triangle jumping can work; most good Marths know not to F-smash the IC's unless they're in the air, but if you do lure him into whiffing one, you can have your way with him.
Problem is that IC's are too floaty to punish Marth for whiffing an aerial or a tilt. If Marth retreats while you're airdodging towards him, you've basically gained no ground.
So I'd say it's worth trying but not a very reliable strategy.

I don't know how to use Ice Climbers but by using Bowser I just recently found that Crouch Canceling is very good against Marth. If he Jabs you then just Crouch Cancel and retaliate with a Down Tilt.

LOL, yeah, let's take a strategy for an entirely different character and apply it to the Ice Climbers. Personally, I just N-air followed by D-B. After all it works for Fox right?
What you suggest doesn't work because
1) Bowser has a lot more traction than IC's
2) Bowser's D-tilt is better.

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

lolol yeah thats why you need to stop using Ice Climbers and convert to Bowser.

 

[Binx]

You probably can't dash dance into grab with IC's because they're bigger and slower. That means you have to be farther away from the sword to avoid it, and you have to have to run farther in to get the grab.

I'm also sad, because my favorite strategy used to be WD -> Jab -> Grab, and it's pretty much obsolete. Can't do it against a Samus, Sheik, Peach, Falco, Fox, or Marth because I get CC'ed into ouch. The only way to make those work is to catch the enemy right out of a jump where they can't short hop, or right as they're landing.

I still don't *know* what to do against Marth though. I'm not sure how to fight his f-airs... his d-tilts are beatable with short hopped f-air if you space it, you can shield grab or down-smash him out of his grabs, CC his forward+b into grabs or rolls, and shield his f-smash into wavedash out of shield. Once you can do all that, it just becomes figuring out what he plans to do... unfortunately, I'm not sure what to do about the f-airs. If he retreats with them, he becomes very very safe. If IC's weren't so slidy, I'd recommend playing attrition using CC's against them, just because one f-air compared a grab or smash is way more advantageous.

If he APPROACHES with f-air, then dash dance grab becomes viable, but if he stays in one spot or just retreats using it I can't seem to beat it. I suppose you could WD in with your shield up and try to get him to push himself to the edge of the stage where you can try to RPS some of his above options.... or use the double shield to mess up his timing on SHDF-air, or his double jump after... basically anything to fluster him and force him to pick options you can easily punish.

I do know that if he does a RISING f-air and you space it you can get dash attacks, so that's something to keep in mind.

At the moment, I have an idea that I'm working on, so I'll let you guys know how it pans out.

Mind PMing it to me so I can try it out too? Dash attacks work really well when they connect, I really do think the majority of my trouble come from him being better at the game than me. I know I can figure him out and go even with him again. I really like that he plays more and makes so much progress, makes me a better player too.

All that Wobbles said should be applied. It is the best combination of tactics to defeating (or almost) a Marth. I have one thing to say. More of a tid-bit

Something I do ocasionally against Marth and other spacers, is just low dodge to them. Basically a WD but not towards the ground. This won't leave you vulnerable to attacks and leaves you facing them unlike a roll would.
For the most part, just dash and False-WD to them just before or when you're just inside their f-smashes range. When you do this, a Marth will usually react normally, whether its a f-smash or d-tilt. This can bring you right beside them with almost no lag. Perfect for setting up a grab or jab.
You can also short hop towards them and dodge angled towards the ground at their feet, you can get there before their u-tilt or f-smash/tilt is finished its recoil.
Performed perfectly will make it look more like a dodge along the ground and lead you straight to them within grabbing range (no WD or dash necissary)
With Jiggs, this sets up rest everytime XD

Ive tried this, at really low percents I can CC a second Dtilt into a grab, and avoid Utilts, he doesn't try fsmash when I am approaching, I like to do running shield approaches occasionally so he is very careful.

I don't know how to use Ice Climbers but by using Bowser I just recently found that Crouch Canceling is very good against Marth. If he Jabs you then just Crouch Cancel and retaliate with a Down Tilt.

EDIT: I hope it helps. I hate Marth just as much as you do.

ICs cant CC anything, the weak part of marths d tilt can be CCed under 30% after that its just a worthless tactic against him.

Note: I dont hate Marth, I actually like hard/unfavorable match ups.

lolol yeah thats why you need to stop using Ice Climbers and convert to Bowser.

HAHA, I've always said bowser mains are dedicated, here is some more evidence. But no thanks, ICs or nothing for me.

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

you should gather a stock pile of sources to prove this theory of yours to the entire forum.

 

[Lixivium]

unfortunately, I'm not sure what to do about the f-airs. If he retreats with them, he becomes very very safe. If IC's weren't so slidy, I'd recommend playing attrition using CC's against them, just because one f-air compared a grab or smash is way more advantageous.

I think WD -> SH B-air might be the only move with enough speed and mobility to beat out a retreating F-air.

 

[Xephalon]

well i usually do desynch ice block from nana and popo charge for a grab. it usually works..idk why..you can also try throwing a nana grenade(my special name for it) aka Jump forward>blizzard> then just grab em to a chain grab

 

[dj asakura]

Xephalon: what you call a "nana grenade" is actually called a nanpault

The “Nanapult”- While Popo is busy doing a move(namely ice block, but others work too); input dash, jump, and blizzard for Nana's 'move.' Doing this all before Nana breaks her box causes her to jump and sail across the level doing blizzard (about 1/3 of FD). This is an even more effective anti-air move, and almost always has positive results (at least for me). DV

from the desynch guide....anyway...

i know this has been mentioned a little, but something i've been doing a lot in all matchups lately (especially with marth) is doing a WD straight down (iunno if thats triangle jumping or not actually...but doesnt involve jumping at all...just literally a WD in place)

it cancels your current wavedash, so you can space it just out of range, then wavedash in. no lag at all, plus a sweet little mindgame cause they think you'll WD again, but you just stay in place (and still have the ability to do any attack with lack of lag)

just a personal thing, it's been working great for me overall. but i still ****ing suck against a good marth...

 

[Lixivium]

it cancels your current wavedash, so you can space it just out of range, then wavedash in. no lag at all, plus a sweet little mindgame cause they think you'll WD again, but you just stay in place (and still have the ability to do any attack with lack of lag)

Sorry, but wavedashing, even in place, comes with 10 frames of lag. It's small but significant.

 

[Binx]

It does confuse lots of people into attacking though thinking you are going to wavedash towards them.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, much like fighting Luigi, a large part of fighting IC's is guessing where they're going to wavedash next. Wavedashing in place decreases your predictability. Plus you'd be surprised at how small the stimuli people react to can be... a lot of them probably start going off the sound and the rising animation, and if they're used to you going certain directions, you can definitely screw them up.

You know, I haven't been thinking about Smash at all today so my idea is gone I hope I remember it by tomorrow. Tomorrow is Smash Practice day. It's also Ping-Pong day, but that's a little irrelevant.

Edit: I just remembered something that comes in handy while edge-guarding Marth. It's risky and kind of difficult, but it works well and can get you KOs where you might not have before.

Here's the setup--when Marth is off the stage and using his forward+b to recover, you want to hit him. However, his f-air has so little lag afterwards that he can use it and still make it back with up+b. The trick is to get the edge and obtain invincibility so he can't f-air you, then when he's in range--and you're still invincible--let go of the edge and b-air immediately. If you jump as soon as you can, you can up+b to the level; it's easier if Nana's on the stage, of course.

This is hard because if you DON'T have Nana, the timing becomes much less forgiving on the b-air and your subsequent double jump. You really don't have much room for mistakes if you want to make it back alive. The other hard part is timing the wavedash onto the edge, so you have invincibility at the right time during his recovery.

What I used to do was just grab the edge, then right as the invincibility wore off, do a normal ledge-stand. The Marth would always up+b above the edge and I'd get a smash or grab, which would generally be my finisher. Unfortunately, I got to play M2K as my second match at OC3, and he pretty much put a stop to that by stalling with forward+b and sweet spotting perfectly with up+b. I had to stand up or roll before he used up+b so that I wouldn't get hit by it, and he'd be against the ledge long enough to grab it. He would then return, and proceed to systematically **** me, because M2K is a heartless, sadistic robot.*

So anyhow, I just thought I'd throw this in there. I've gotten it to work before, and I'm sure I can make it work again.

*M2K is actually a kind of nice, heartless sadistic robot.

 

[dj asakura]

so are you saying you need to drop -> b-air -> jump -> up-b or do you not always have to use the up-b?

i'm pretty its the first one, but i think this would catch a lot of people offgaurd.


also, yes, the WD in place still has normal WD lag, i didn't mean to say it has NO lag, just that you still do any move out of it. It's really helped me trick people cause they do instinctively react to the sound and motion of a WD and this tricks them into thinking you're on the move and, ieally, opens up an oppurtunity to attack

 

[Binx]

I've used that edgeguard too, it only works once per set though because every Marth I've played was careful of it after that.

Same with your step up dsmash. Although Ive gotten that to work multiple times against less thinky opponents.

EDIT: the step up dsmash also works against Fox although if he is off the edge you probably have him dead anyways, especially if they are willing to miss a sweetspot.

A trick I like to do against fox is fast fall ledge hop and waveland back onto the ledge, make sure and ff to grab in time right after they start their Up B, most of them will know you will make the stage so they will go for some sort of sweet spot, either overshooting the ledge and falling back down or riding the ledge on stages like FD to sweetspot, this confuses them into taking the knee jerk reaction and makes them pay with a stock. This will also make them less likely to sweetspot other times in the set and can get you lots of fsmash edgegaurds you wouldnt normally be privy too.

 

[Delphiki]

Guys don't bash KingJiggyWiggy - playing varied characters and using their strategies with the others always is helpful - it causes you to think in ways you usually wouldn't. My Pichu got super good after I started training my Falcon again. No kidding.

And the reason the ICs CC sucks isn't because of d-tilt, it's because they slide EVERYWHERE. I think the things that look like spikes on their shoes are actually small pieces of ice attached somehow. That would explain it. But you can CC aerials just fine if they're coming from a higher angle.



Also, I think that edgeguard is very effective. It really kills most of the time unless you're playing somebody really good (ex. M2k x_x) or you mess up. If they don't attack you while they're on the edge (before they Up+B), it's a definite kill.