JediSange
Smash Apprentice
WORK IN PROGRESS. ** TEXT ** is stuff to edit in the future. Thank you for your patience.
v0.5 Oh my god... I have learned so much. I'm still not dead, but wow. This is some crazy stuff. Added a TL;DR of what is to come. Expect to see work on this in the coming week.
This guide is meant to be read from start to finish. Please be mindful of this.
I was so confused watching M2K, Taj, Tai, etc... not get punished for the SAME things I do. They will approach with aerials sometimes, do crazy mixups... and when I do it, I got punished. Why?
TL;DR: MARTH IS ABOUT A PROMISE. You have to show your opponent that, given the chance, you can and will do the gayest things Marth can. You have to show them this, and keep it as if it was a promise. You have to terrify them. That is everything Marth is in a nutshell.
Introduction
Alright, so I'm getting bigger into melee. To disclaimer I'm not amazing. I still get wrecked by pros and such, but I'm improving a lot. In my improvement I've noticed a significant lack of content on the Marth boards. I came here when starting to learn things about "options" and such to try and learn the match-ups, but to no avail.
So, this guide has two real goals:
1. Provide a match-up guide for Marths, both current and future, by providing my own insight, your feedback, and other board's match-up guides. I want to be perfectly clear: This guide is for the community. Please give it criticism and feedback. It is a LIVING guide.
2. Improve my own skill. You learn a lot by teaching others, so hopefully me putting this all on paper will make it that much more concrete in my own head (as I don't stick this as well as I should).
Preface
Before I begin, I want to point something out. The tier list exists, it matters, deal with it. Sorry if that offends anyone, but that's how it is. I don't desire to debate or discuss this, but I'm using this to explain that I will only be covering major match-ups. At the end (if there is time), I will give a basic idea of what to do against certain TYPES of characters, but not in the detail which I plan on providing for the big match-ups.
This guide also assumes you have been playing enough to know the chain throws, the tech skill, some basic options. It's for the people who get into the game, say "oh man this game is really awesome and Marth feels right for me... but I don't get why [character] is beating me." I want to illustrate some match-ups and how they exist at high level. I do NOT want to teach people how to play Marth. I will post a "Final Thoughts" part when the guide is done on how I feel about that topic. Keep reading.
Match-up numbers are not everything. Just because I say a match-up is 60/40 does not matter as much as the CONTENT in the guide itself. Sure, I might say Fox/Marth is in Marth's favor slightly, but that's just my own personal outlook. Does it matter what the match-up actually is? No. What matters is how you approach it, and realize that those numbers are close enough that it basically means "zomg, Fox can mess me up too."
Anyways, let's begin...
General Marth Stuff
I do not want this to turn into a guide on how to play Marth, but I want to go over a few key points that exist in ALL match-ups:
- Marth controls pacing and space. His range and ability to punish are amazing. If you jeopardize that in any way, the match becomes hard (if not impossible) to win. You have to always mind your spacing and make sure you're eliminating the options your opponent has.
- Marth pressures with his space. I can not say this enough. Spacing alone is worth 10 or more bullet points here, but unfortunately it is the hardest to teach (impossible I might even say). You have to learn really good spacing to play Marth. I come from Smash 64, so it was like ingrained in me before I took up Marth. You want to space in such a way where you threaten them by being in the position you are at. It's hard to explain, but if I write an in-depth Marth guide I will try to elaborate on this.
- Marth combos are devastating. You need to understand how to combo your opponents well. This comes from good tech skill, watching videos, knowing the match-ups, and straight up experience. I will never say combos are more important than spacing, but they are important none-the-less.
- Marth abuses people above him on platforms. When you are on Yoshi's or Battlefield, you want to upthrow your opponent onto the platform, then cover it in such a fashion that if you utilt the direction you're looking, you cover one half of the platform, and your fsmash (in the direction you're not facing) covers the other half. This will cover all of their getup options, and short hopping into an upair then getting up on the platform with them, utilting, comboing from that, etc. It's very abusive and you need to be mindful of this at ALL times.
Marth vs. Fox
55/45, Marth
A lot of people think this match-up is even. I think that's a fairly good estimate, but I think Marth has better stage options in a tournament setting. Whether it's even or 55/45 is really irrelevant though... the point is Fox can do a lot to you if you mess up.
How you want to view this match-up is summarized in one sentence: "Don't get grabbed." Actually, both players view the match-up this way since they both get so much out of grabs.
Fox has a lot he can do to you period. He's fast enough that he can control the space of the stage very, very well. If you throw out a random move, he can punish the lag behind it easily with his own combo, grab, etc. When I started out I'd try to just SHFFL aerials and approach him. This is a TERRIBLE idea (especially when done mindlessly). A good fox will observe this pattern, and punish it. Fox's main punishments are shine combos (nair shine, dair shine, continue on that, etc), or just straight up grabbing you into an uair.
Speaking of that, uthrow to uair is a bread and butter combo for Fox, and guaranteed on Marth at virtually any percent. If you get grabbed, it is safe to assume that you're going to get upthrown into an uair. This is a big thing Fox abuses in this match-up and will punish you with if you allow him to grab you. There is no real defense for this, two things aside:
1. Don't get grabbed (say that to yourself as you play Fox
)
2. You can smash-DI out of the second hit. The most reliable method I've found to do is input the "dash dance" on the joystick after he grabs you (that way he'll have to watch your DI from the grab itself as well). With any luck, you can get out of some of the uairs coming your way.
2.2. Just work on smashing the control stick in a direction. It's been pointed out to me that if you DI in front of the Fox then he can get more uairs on you, and if you successfully smash-DI both hits then you eat the uair anyways. This gets into a very technical level and I'd say a better mindset is to not get grabbed, and relying on a smash DI is not good. However, do whichever you're more comfortable with when the situation arises.
Now let's talk about what you do to Fox. This is where it gets fun (also read: gay). Marth is forced to play a very punishing game against Fox. A lot of people say play defensively. I think this is improperly phrased. They don't mean create as much space as possible between you two, they mean space yourself so that you can punish Fox's approach while staying safe (I guess that's every match-up, but in general it means don't approach with silly aerials, that will just get you punished).
How you need to be playing is maintaining that perfect space. Fox can not out camp you. Sure he can laser camp, but when he jumps he limits his own options a lot (if your spacing is correct) and leaves openings that you can abuse (such as beginning fair combos into a grab). So, camp Fox until he approaches you. He will try to dash dance and grab you, or approach with an aerial. If you read the grab, then you can just wavedash back, fsmash, short hop fair, sh nair, etc. If you read the aerial, then the best thing you can do is go for the grab. Shield grabbing fox's can be difficult, as he has smaller shield pressure holes, so I'd recommend wavedashing back and going for a grab, or straight up dash dancing into a grab. Also, if you wavedash back grab too much, he can just overshoot his aerials and still hit you. This becomes a mix up and you should just fair out of shield instead.
To summarize: Try to bait his approaches. Get the grab whenever possible, as this is your best option. If he is in the air, try to punish with your own nair/fairs. If he poorly spaces on the ground, either go in for the grab or tip your dash attack on him.
Now, once you get those things...
From a grab, uthrow chains on him until around 19%. At this percent if he's DIing away then you will have to move and regrab. If he has no DI then you will have to pivot grab him (as he can shine out). Once he gets high-20s (28~), you can uthrow to utilt and watch for where he goes. Often you can get a turn around grab out of it, redo it, and go for uair/utilt combos and finish with a fsmash. The biggest thing to keep in mind here is a lot of Marths just utilt without watching it. They're like "Oh man uthrow utilt so good... but wait I didn't tip and now Fox is across FD." You have to watch for the tipper utilt for it to be good.
Also, if you get the grab and he's at 60-90ish%, then upthrow to fsmash does wonders. You will have to walk a little bit to one side or the other if he doesn't DI at all, but it is a true combo.
From a fair/nair, depending on DI and tipper/inner hits, you want to push for a grab. This is your main source of punishment against a Fox player. If he DI's in on your fairs, continue your SH double fairs until he DIs out or just do it and finish it with a spike (again, bread and butter on the entire cast basically).
From a tipped dash attack, it is very dependent on percent. If the percent is at kill level, then you want to just watch his DI, then fsmash him. It should be behind you, and it should hurt -- a lot. If it's at a lower percent, this can lead into a ftilt/grab and combo on from there as described above.
The basic idea is, don't get grabbed, punish as much as you can. That is a lot of Marth match-ups, but Fox gets a lot out of grabs and it's very obvious once you start playing high level Foxes. You can not let the Fox control the pace of the match and get free grabs on you.
In terms of gimping, the basic idea is that space animals hold their breath if you throw them off the stage. Once you get a stock, you can take the ledge and repeatedly drop/jump/regrab ledge. This will make them atleast approach the ledge and close the initial space. From here going for a grab is very good. If you grab them near the ledge at 0, then dthrow to a turnaround dtilt is said to be guaranteed. From here if they jump away to phantasm, you can cover it with a jab then follow them down for an inner fair/reverse upb. If they go for the fire fox recovery, then it's best to cover with a dtilt (or counter if they will clearly hit it) followed by the drop inner air or reverse upb.
Stage selection:
You ideally want to wind up at Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, or Final Destination for your first match. All of these are good or equal stages in my eyes. A lot of people say the match is truely 50/50 on FD, but I think it's still good for Marth, since you can virtually 0 to death combo Fox once you get the grab combos down. Fountain of Dreams is also viable, however I personally dislike this stage.
In terms of counter picks, Fox's seem to like to take us to Pokemon Stadium. I'm not certain why. I guess it's a good stage for him, and the transformations allow him to use his speed to control space, but largely it doesn't change the match-up much. Abuse platforms as much as possible, go for grabs, punish bad spacing/DI. The only "bad" stage I view really is Dream Land. This is because Fox has plenty of room to move around, and Marth can not use the platforms to abuse him as much. However, it has a high ceiling, so his main kill on you is also hurting because of this selection. I view the match as very even on this stage.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Final Destination
Bad Stages: Dreamland, Pokemon Stadium (I guess)
The rest of the counter picks are fairly bad for both, so I won't bother listing them (this is a bit rule specific, but in general you will be fighting on the stages above if the Fox has much sense).
Marth vs Falco
55/45, Marth
Alright, so a lot of Marth's will hate me for that number. The typical Marth player coming up is so worried about lasers. This is true, lasers are annoying. Go to the Falco boards, they will QQ about how lasers are bad, only 3 frames of hit stun, etc. The reality is we have a lot of answers to their lasers, and they will be described here briefly, or in detail in the following thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102497
That being said, your biggest worries in this match-up are Falco's laser approach and his devastating combos.
Originally, this match-up was thought to be heavily in Marth's favor. While, I still think it is in his favor, it's certainly not a 70/30+ match-up like it might have been viewed once upon a time. Falco can not out camp you, contrary to popular belief. Any good Falco player would agree with me that they have to approach. If the Falco simply laser camps you, he eliminates his only way to win the match -- pressuring you.
The way most Falco's view this match is to laser camp approaches until an opening appears, abuse that opening, and combo you. They also apply very good shield pressure if their tech skill is up to par. Your defense against this is as follows:
Against lasers, follow the guide referenced above. Full hopping over them to approach (note: this doesn't mean full hop over them and fair them. Yes that works sometimes, but in general you want to hop over the lasers, land, and maintain a space such that them jumping is punishable... be situational), power shielding them, shielding them then wave dashing out of shield.
That brings me to another point, do not camp in your shield in this match-up. Falco's love to pressure you. I think they secretly get off to it. The more you stay in shield, the less options of controlling space and pacing you have.
However, against any good Falco you will inevitably be forced into shield from the pressure. Watch M2K vs Shiz/DRPP/Mango/etc, it happens, and there is nothing you can do to completely avoid it (simply try to mitigate it as much as possible). Your options are basically to watch his aerials. Falco can throw his aerials early or late. I will explain the chains and responses to them.
Falco can approach with an early aerial or late aerial. If he approaches with an early aerial (Also read: Rising Aerials), then you can shield grab him just after the aerial hits your shield. If he approaches with a late aerial, the chain will go as follows:
Late Aerial -> Shine -> then options come. I think most Falco's will attempt to continue the pressure by jumping and throwing another aerial. If it is a late aerial again, you have time to escape the pressure either with a roll, wavedash, or some aerial/grab out of shield (spacing dependant). I'd like to note here that rolling out of pressure is what a lot of high levels Marth's are forced to do. It is punishable, but sometimes it's better than risking the wavedash/aerial out of shield.
However, they can throw out an early aerial (making the whole pressure chain Late -> Shine -> Early), in which case if you tried to grab/escape after the shine, you'd eat an aerial. If this chain happens (you have to predict it... try to watch how Falco is using his aerials), then you want to attempt an escape after the early aerial.
What should you take away from this? Shield grabbing Falco is possible but difficult. It is a viable option if their pressure is sub-par, and a possible option if it is good. Better ways to avoid shield pressure are wave dashing out of shield or fairing out of shield, depending on the timing/spacing. If their pressure is too much then you can always attempt a roll, but expect to be punished if this becomes a habit.
In general, Falco will attempt to approach with lasers and shield pressure. Try to avoid those at all cost, as if they are successful it is likely you will be combo'd badly. When in one of their combos, try to DI away while throwing fairs if they are near you. Some Falco's will bait those, especially if they hear you doing it on the controller. Try to be mindful of this and then just DI out if that situation happens.
If you can get around that and space Falco well, you should be able to get grabs or dash attacks in ways similar to Fox. Once you get those, you want to punish them in the same ways as you do against Fox. There are some slight variations, which I will cover, but the general idea is this:
From grabs, you want to chain grab uthrow Falco. However, at 0% you will need to fthrow him once, regrab, then proceed to uthrow. At around 22% is when you need to pivot grab Falco, or go for utilt regrab. At about 40% you need to do uair/utilt combinations and finish with an fsmash around 60-70%+ for a ledgeguard attempt.
From fair/nairs (if you can abuse them while he is in the air), you want to work it into an utilt combo chain. Nair followed by a grab works situationally. In general, you want to observe the situation after your aerials hit because it's very DI dependent as to what you can do. It will usually lead to an utilt or grab if you spaced it properly though (or just finish it with an fsmash if the Falco is at kill percent).
From tipped dash attacks, simply utilt combo or finish with an fsmash. See Fox's match-up for more options on killing Falco.
See Fox section for ideas on gimping the space animals.
Stage selection:
You want to take Falco to Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, or Fountain of Dreams. All three of these stages provide you with plenty of options for lasers and spacing so you can stay out of shield and able to punish. Get him in a grab combo or on a platform, abuse his openings, and stay good with your edge game. It will lead to short stocks and impressive combos.
I personally think Final Destination is not bad for this match-up, but it lets him use his lasers a lot. Avoid this and Dream Land for the same reason. Pokemon Stadium is not a bad stage for this match-up, but the transformations are generally in Falco's favor, and you gain very little on it compared to the "good" stages.
In stage striking, play on one of the three good stages. If you get the win, ban Dream Land and you will be taken to FD or Pokemon. If you win, grats, if you lose then take him to the third of the "good" stages (one being unable to be chosen due to DSR if you won, and the second due to a ban from the smart Falco).
Good Stages: Yoshi's Island, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Final Destination
Bad Stages: Dream Land, Pokemon Stadium
Marth vs. Jigglypuff
60/40, Marth
This match-up is one Jigglypuff is forced to change characters or camp you on. This is a terrible match-up for her because you out range her, tipper can kill her very early, and your grabs can lead to devastating combos if not DI'd properly.
After talking with more people about this, Jiggs players view this match-up as more towards the even side rather than in Marth's favor. I'm not certain I agree with this, but I will back pedal from my stand point of it forcing her to change characters or camp. I think the puff will still try to camp you and play the same way as described below, but Mahone pointed out to me that when puff does get an opening she gets a lot more out of it than the Marth. So I have changed the match-up to reflect 60/40. It might even be 55/45, but either way I view this in Marth's favor.
What Jigglypuff is going to try and do is space and shield your attacks, wait for an opening, then go in for uair combos, rests, etc. Another tactic Jigglypuff players use is crouching grabs/dash attacks. You want to basically abuse your range in this matchup, play patiently, and combo fairs with inner hits (by using SH double fair). If you do get a safe grab on her, use fthrow at low percents, followed by a tipper fsmash if they DI in, and attempt fair combos if they DI up or away.
At higher percents, killing her can be hard as not a lot combos. If you get the grab, try to mix up back and down throws to fish for bad DI. Be ready to punish with aerials or fsmash. At kill percent, you can try for the side-b to utilt combo, which will kill. Utilt in general is a great kill against floaty characters on Marth. It's something to keep in mind against a Jigglypuff.
Largely this match-up is more about knowing Jigglypuff tricks and being patient. You out range her and it's a bad match-up. Time aerials properly, do not be quick to approach, and wait for her to make mistakes. Do not throw bad grabs or dash attacks, or you will likely be punished with a rest. At high percents, understand that rest is a trade. If she rests you at 50-70% or more (stage dependent), then she is dead when you come back. Simply DI down to flat line it and die faster, come back, neutral b or charge fsmash her and you take the stock.
I make this sound insanely simple, but there are great Jiggs players out there who aren't scared of too many Marth's. Hbox and Mango are both amazing puffs and I think some people might be reading this and saying "Wut?" In reality, they are amazing players. You will have trouble with amazing players in ANY match-up. Spacing is important, and if people can out space you, then all of your moves mean nothing. Be mindful of this, and play this patiently. If you are losing, just try to read up on puff tactics and keep your mind right during the match.
Another note on this is that dash dancing works well in controlling the space. Acting like you're retreating with your dash dance then wavedashing in for a tipped fsmash can be brilliant. I love this option against a lot of floaties. In general, keep your mind on getting first hits, and not being greedy for the combo.
Stage selection:
You basically want to take her anywhere with a low ceiling and where she can't camp too hard. Yoshi's Story is an obvious choice for this. It will likely only get played if you can counter-pick there. Puff will strike this stage first, and ban it if she wins.
The rest of the stages aren't terribly in your favor. The only two you want to avoid are Dream Land and Brinstar. Brinstar is a notorious counter pick for puff players. While Marth I don't feel is "terrible" here, it is in his disadvantage. If you get taken here (because you didn't ban it for some reason), then just try to space well. Unfortunately on this stage I feel you are forced to approach her more than usual. Do so, be careful, and try to just space everything perfectly.
Strike Dream Land this first and attempt to take her somewhere you can space well at. I'd say go with personal preference.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Final Destination (debatable, but I like it), and Pokemon Stadium (has a lower ceiling than FD)
Bad Stages: Dream Land, Brinstar, Kongo Jungle, Fountain of Dreams (I've heard this has a high ceiling, and I personally don't like it)
Puff has good counter pick stages. Be careful of it, and realize losing a match against a good puff on a counter pick stage is almost expected. Simply counter pick back to Yoshi's (if they don't ban it) or whatever you prefer and be patient.
Marth vs. Sheik
40,60, Sheik
This match is a hard one for Marth's, and has made me want to have a pocket puff on more than one occasion. While it is considered largely in Sheik's favor, it is not impossible.
The Sheik is going to try and take control of this match. Needles are very important for her in her match against space animals. In this case needles are good for stopping our approaches, but not much else. In other words, they have to attack. If they choose to play defensive or apply little to no pressure, then Marth will take control of the match and ultimately shut the Sheik down. They are very aware of this and will seek to apply a strong pressure and punish game.
They are going to play this match largely on the ground in terms of approach. They might try needle things or empty hops, but approaching from the air is NOT in their favor, because we can punish with fair combos which ultimately lead to fsmashes. So, you can expect them to go for grabs on you. They get a LOT more out of grabs than you do in this match-up. Well, not a lot, but Sheik isn't the best combo fodder from our grabs.
They will basically try for grab or tilt combos at low percents, then tilt/grab to fair finishers at 70%+. Sheik will attempt to down throw combo you from 0 until 20ish percent, if I'm not mistaken. After that she can down throw, ftilt, regrab. Then after THAT she can downthrow to uair and juggle with her uairs until about 70%.
Let me pause here. I must admit those numbers are somewhat estimated, and taken from Sheik boards. I have played Tope on several occasions (an amazing Sheik near me), and the combos really are that brutal. If you allow him to control the match then they will get off all over you. Once you're at about 70% it's a very dangerous match. I believe their dthrow to fair is guaranteed. The best thing you can do in that case is attempt to DI in and hope you can make it back.
If you're in her combos I'd just say DI down and away, and pray for a tech. In the air combos you can try to DI away and swat her with your own fair, but similar to Falco, they can just bait that if it's predictable.
That's basically what you want to avoid. Playing this match-up will probably perfect your spacing (pending it's a good Sheik). You need to always maintain that perfect space between you two and punish her approaches. I say space, space, space so much in this guide. I know by now it's redundant, but I want every Marth to understand that you will not be able to muscle your way into placement at tournaments with tech skill alone.
What you should be doing is going for aerial combos. Uthrow is probably your best option from a grab, as fthrow -> fsmash can be DI'd, but is good at low percents, and down/backthrow are glorified tech chases. Bthrow is nice if they DI improperly, so a good fthrow/bthrow mixup could work your way into an fsmash, but it is risky to play the grab game too heavily here because Sheik's grab punish you a lot.
So, try to uthrow Sheik and she has two options: Air dodge or jump. If she does neither then she eats an utilt to a combo. If she air dodges it's a reset, because you regrab (**CONFIRM THIS**). So basically uthrow forces MOST Sheiks to use their jump, then you want to push for fair/nair/uair/utilt combos that ultimately end in an fsmash with an edgeguard opportunity. These won't always work and are certainly not as pretty or rigid as on space animals. Best advice I can give is keep abusing your SH retreating double fair and if she gets out of combos then just keep playing a patient game of spacing.
Now, in terms of edge game I'd say both players have each others numbers. Marth trying to recover from below the stage can be easily punished by Sheik, so try to mix up your recoveries. In terms of the Sheik recovery just standard edge game stuff. Dtilt to cover the edge, space it perfect, then fsmash if they recover high (edge game is much deeper than that, but read another guide for that). Also, don't get fancy against Sheik. Sometimes you just need to take the ledge and edgehog straight up. The same thing applies to Peach.
Stage selection:
You want to take her somewhere which her chain throws can be teched or escaped easier (in other words, make it as hard for her to hurt you as possible). Both players benefit decently from platforms I'd say, though. Typically Marth's try to go for Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, or Fountain of Dreams in this match-up. However, I'd say that Sheik has amazing tech chases when you're both on platforms, so be careful of that. However, they provide you a way to camp the "bottom" level and tech out of the combos a bit better. Try to take her to a platform stage, bait a grab, get her on a platform, and combo her.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams
Bad Stages Dream Land, Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium
While I think Pokemon is better than the other two, they all have long, flat areas for which to chain throw. The transformations on Pokemon are better for you than Sheik though (opinionated), so it's viable if you must.
Marth vs. Peach
60,40, Marth
Because I didn't mention it in the body of this: Don't crouch cancel Peach's dsmash. It will put you back into the ground and hit you with it many, many times. It can do upwards of 60 damage if you crouch cancel the entire thing. Getting hit while she's on a platform and you're below can also have this effect. THIS WILL HURT. A LOT. OW.
Onward...
This matchup is pretty straight forward conceptually. The best example of this, despite the Marth losing, is M2K vs Armada at Pound 4, game 1. He plays this very well and showcases how spacing and tech skill benefit you in this matchup.
To begin, Peach can not approach you. I know this seems counter intuitive, as she has a projectile (and like I've said above, not a lot of people can camp Marth... just be patient and wait for it. If you disagree, go read Mango's guide on puff. He says just wait for it -- always). However, if you are maintaining the spacing to pressure her then pulling out a turnip should be something Peach does at a cost.
Let me explain what I mean by that: As stated above, Marth should be pressuring with his spacing in such a way that opponents can not do laggy moves, like pull out turnips, for free. In this matchup the spacing should not be so tight that you can literally fsmash her for pulling one out, but when she does she loses a lot of her options against you that you should be able to punish.
For example, when peach is holding a turnip she can not shield grab you. Use this to apply pressure to her shield and force her into the air, which is exactly where you want a Peach. Also it eliminates her dash attack, which is huge for her in this matchup.
That spacing aside, Peach is going to try and turnip camp for an approach. As Marth you need to bait this and pressure that with spacing, as mentioned above. Once she gets in she will try to get you in the air with uairs, and punish bad spacing with dsmash. In the air she can try and go for nair/fair hits which are big kills moves at high percent. If you are unfortunate enough to be playing someone on Armada's level, they will probably punish you a lot harder than just one dsmash for bad spacing.
In terms of what the Marth wants to do, you have a lot of options. Retreating SH double fair is very good in this match up, and when Peach has a turnip out it's generally pretty safe on her shield. Tipped dash attacks don't get you a whole lot in this matchup, but from it you can generally follow it with a bair to fair(x2/x3) combo. From grabs you really have two options: f/d/bthrow mixups, or uthrow and try to juggle. With the first, if she DI's poorly or misses a tech, you can fsmash tip her at reasonable percents (like less then 80, above that I think she'll float away regardless, bthrow aside). However with uthrow it's generally safe and Peach is bad in the air above you. You should try for this and keep her pressured in the air.
Your biggest kills are going to be SH double fair chains to a spike (if you're lucky), inner fair her far enough away from the stage where can can't really float back and get the ledge (unlikely, but it happens), tipped fsmashes from spacing/throws, or an utilt at a kill percent (120~+). A good way to setup for the utilt is one hit of the side b. You can be dash dancing, run at peach, side b, then utilt. It comes out very fast and is a great way to finish Peach off.
To summarize this matchup: On the ground maintain space with dash dancing and pressure her with that space so pulling out a turnip is not a free operation. You should be trying to get in with fairs or grabs, dash attacks also work. Once you are in, try to juggle her in the air. Peach is fodder for the infamous "Ken Combo," so try to get her with SH double fair chains often. Certain grabs can get you tipped fsmashes, but it's not reliable outside of being a mixup so I'd say uthrow often. Don't underestimate the utilt kill, as it works wonders. Use side b to set it up. Watch the video cited at the start of this matchup and watch how M2K controls the space vs Armada, and the commentary is good about this matchup.
Stage selection:
Dreamland is generally bad for you in this matchup, as Peach becomes very difficult to kill. Yoshi's is great because of a low ceiling which will make your utilt kill sooner (and it's smaller, so tipped fsmashes will kill sooner, etc... platforms, etc. If you've read this guide start to finish like you should've, these points are redundant =D). I like Final Destination in this matchup. Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield I might avoid just because the platforms you don't benefit from a whole lot (I suppose if she's on them you can pressure from the side and below with fairs) and it's risky because her dsmash can eat you when Peach is on a platform and you're not careful.
I'm going to say FoD is a bad stage, only because the moving platforms are less optimal to deal with than the battlefield platforms. But realize in this matchup, so much of it is not as rigid as Marth vs Spacies, so you should play around with it, determine what stages you like the best. These are definitely just suggestions in this case. And as everyone who plays me knows, I generally don't like FoD.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Final Destination, Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium
Bad Stages Dream Land, Fountain of Dreams
Marth vs. Falcon
Marth vs. MARTH?!
TEMP
*IN PROCESS*
Old Match Up Thread
v0.5 Oh my god... I have learned so much. I'm still not dead, but wow. This is some crazy stuff. Added a TL;DR of what is to come. Expect to see work on this in the coming week.
This guide is meant to be read from start to finish. Please be mindful of this.
I was so confused watching M2K, Taj, Tai, etc... not get punished for the SAME things I do. They will approach with aerials sometimes, do crazy mixups... and when I do it, I got punished. Why?
TL;DR: MARTH IS ABOUT A PROMISE. You have to show your opponent that, given the chance, you can and will do the gayest things Marth can. You have to show them this, and keep it as if it was a promise. You have to terrify them. That is everything Marth is in a nutshell.
Introduction
Alright, so I'm getting bigger into melee. To disclaimer I'm not amazing. I still get wrecked by pros and such, but I'm improving a lot. In my improvement I've noticed a significant lack of content on the Marth boards. I came here when starting to learn things about "options" and such to try and learn the match-ups, but to no avail.
So, this guide has two real goals:
1. Provide a match-up guide for Marths, both current and future, by providing my own insight, your feedback, and other board's match-up guides. I want to be perfectly clear: This guide is for the community. Please give it criticism and feedback. It is a LIVING guide.
2. Improve my own skill. You learn a lot by teaching others, so hopefully me putting this all on paper will make it that much more concrete in my own head (as I don't stick this as well as I should).
Preface
Before I begin, I want to point something out. The tier list exists, it matters, deal with it. Sorry if that offends anyone, but that's how it is. I don't desire to debate or discuss this, but I'm using this to explain that I will only be covering major match-ups. At the end (if there is time), I will give a basic idea of what to do against certain TYPES of characters, but not in the detail which I plan on providing for the big match-ups.
This guide also assumes you have been playing enough to know the chain throws, the tech skill, some basic options. It's for the people who get into the game, say "oh man this game is really awesome and Marth feels right for me... but I don't get why [character] is beating me." I want to illustrate some match-ups and how they exist at high level. I do NOT want to teach people how to play Marth. I will post a "Final Thoughts" part when the guide is done on how I feel about that topic. Keep reading.
Match-up numbers are not everything. Just because I say a match-up is 60/40 does not matter as much as the CONTENT in the guide itself. Sure, I might say Fox/Marth is in Marth's favor slightly, but that's just my own personal outlook. Does it matter what the match-up actually is? No. What matters is how you approach it, and realize that those numbers are close enough that it basically means "zomg, Fox can mess me up too."
Anyways, let's begin...
General Marth Stuff
I do not want this to turn into a guide on how to play Marth, but I want to go over a few key points that exist in ALL match-ups:
- Marth controls pacing and space. His range and ability to punish are amazing. If you jeopardize that in any way, the match becomes hard (if not impossible) to win. You have to always mind your spacing and make sure you're eliminating the options your opponent has.
- Marth pressures with his space. I can not say this enough. Spacing alone is worth 10 or more bullet points here, but unfortunately it is the hardest to teach (impossible I might even say). You have to learn really good spacing to play Marth. I come from Smash 64, so it was like ingrained in me before I took up Marth. You want to space in such a way where you threaten them by being in the position you are at. It's hard to explain, but if I write an in-depth Marth guide I will try to elaborate on this.
- Marth combos are devastating. You need to understand how to combo your opponents well. This comes from good tech skill, watching videos, knowing the match-ups, and straight up experience. I will never say combos are more important than spacing, but they are important none-the-less.
- Marth abuses people above him on platforms. When you are on Yoshi's or Battlefield, you want to upthrow your opponent onto the platform, then cover it in such a fashion that if you utilt the direction you're looking, you cover one half of the platform, and your fsmash (in the direction you're not facing) covers the other half. This will cover all of their getup options, and short hopping into an upair then getting up on the platform with them, utilting, comboing from that, etc. It's very abusive and you need to be mindful of this at ALL times.
Marth vs. Fox
55/45, Marth
A lot of people think this match-up is even. I think that's a fairly good estimate, but I think Marth has better stage options in a tournament setting. Whether it's even or 55/45 is really irrelevant though... the point is Fox can do a lot to you if you mess up.
How you want to view this match-up is summarized in one sentence: "Don't get grabbed." Actually, both players view the match-up this way since they both get so much out of grabs.
Fox has a lot he can do to you period. He's fast enough that he can control the space of the stage very, very well. If you throw out a random move, he can punish the lag behind it easily with his own combo, grab, etc. When I started out I'd try to just SHFFL aerials and approach him. This is a TERRIBLE idea (especially when done mindlessly). A good fox will observe this pattern, and punish it. Fox's main punishments are shine combos (nair shine, dair shine, continue on that, etc), or just straight up grabbing you into an uair.
Speaking of that, uthrow to uair is a bread and butter combo for Fox, and guaranteed on Marth at virtually any percent. If you get grabbed, it is safe to assume that you're going to get upthrown into an uair. This is a big thing Fox abuses in this match-up and will punish you with if you allow him to grab you. There is no real defense for this, two things aside:
1. Don't get grabbed (say that to yourself as you play Fox
)2. You can smash-DI out of the second hit. The most reliable method I've found to do is input the "dash dance" on the joystick after he grabs you (that way he'll have to watch your DI from the grab itself as well). With any luck, you can get out of some of the uairs coming your way.
2.2. Just work on smashing the control stick in a direction. It's been pointed out to me that if you DI in front of the Fox then he can get more uairs on you, and if you successfully smash-DI both hits then you eat the uair anyways. This gets into a very technical level and I'd say a better mindset is to not get grabbed, and relying on a smash DI is not good. However, do whichever you're more comfortable with when the situation arises.
Now let's talk about what you do to Fox. This is where it gets fun (also read: gay). Marth is forced to play a very punishing game against Fox. A lot of people say play defensively. I think this is improperly phrased. They don't mean create as much space as possible between you two, they mean space yourself so that you can punish Fox's approach while staying safe (I guess that's every match-up, but in general it means don't approach with silly aerials, that will just get you punished).
How you need to be playing is maintaining that perfect space. Fox can not out camp you. Sure he can laser camp, but when he jumps he limits his own options a lot (if your spacing is correct) and leaves openings that you can abuse (such as beginning fair combos into a grab). So, camp Fox until he approaches you. He will try to dash dance and grab you, or approach with an aerial. If you read the grab, then you can just wavedash back, fsmash, short hop fair, sh nair, etc. If you read the aerial, then the best thing you can do is go for the grab. Shield grabbing fox's can be difficult, as he has smaller shield pressure holes, so I'd recommend wavedashing back and going for a grab, or straight up dash dancing into a grab. Also, if you wavedash back grab too much, he can just overshoot his aerials and still hit you. This becomes a mix up and you should just fair out of shield instead.
To summarize: Try to bait his approaches. Get the grab whenever possible, as this is your best option. If he is in the air, try to punish with your own nair/fairs. If he poorly spaces on the ground, either go in for the grab or tip your dash attack on him.
Now, once you get those things...
From a grab, uthrow chains on him until around 19%. At this percent if he's DIing away then you will have to move and regrab. If he has no DI then you will have to pivot grab him (as he can shine out). Once he gets high-20s (28~), you can uthrow to utilt and watch for where he goes. Often you can get a turn around grab out of it, redo it, and go for uair/utilt combos and finish with a fsmash. The biggest thing to keep in mind here is a lot of Marths just utilt without watching it. They're like "Oh man uthrow utilt so good... but wait I didn't tip and now Fox is across FD." You have to watch for the tipper utilt for it to be good.
Also, if you get the grab and he's at 60-90ish%, then upthrow to fsmash does wonders. You will have to walk a little bit to one side or the other if he doesn't DI at all, but it is a true combo.
From a fair/nair, depending on DI and tipper/inner hits, you want to push for a grab. This is your main source of punishment against a Fox player. If he DI's in on your fairs, continue your SH double fairs until he DIs out or just do it and finish it with a spike (again, bread and butter on the entire cast basically).
From a tipped dash attack, it is very dependent on percent. If the percent is at kill level, then you want to just watch his DI, then fsmash him. It should be behind you, and it should hurt -- a lot. If it's at a lower percent, this can lead into a ftilt/grab and combo on from there as described above.
The basic idea is, don't get grabbed, punish as much as you can. That is a lot of Marth match-ups, but Fox gets a lot out of grabs and it's very obvious once you start playing high level Foxes. You can not let the Fox control the pace of the match and get free grabs on you.
In terms of gimping, the basic idea is that space animals hold their breath if you throw them off the stage. Once you get a stock, you can take the ledge and repeatedly drop/jump/regrab ledge. This will make them atleast approach the ledge and close the initial space. From here going for a grab is very good. If you grab them near the ledge at 0, then dthrow to a turnaround dtilt is said to be guaranteed. From here if they jump away to phantasm, you can cover it with a jab then follow them down for an inner fair/reverse upb. If they go for the fire fox recovery, then it's best to cover with a dtilt (or counter if they will clearly hit it) followed by the drop inner air or reverse upb.
Stage selection:
You ideally want to wind up at Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, or Final Destination for your first match. All of these are good or equal stages in my eyes. A lot of people say the match is truely 50/50 on FD, but I think it's still good for Marth, since you can virtually 0 to death combo Fox once you get the grab combos down. Fountain of Dreams is also viable, however I personally dislike this stage.
In terms of counter picks, Fox's seem to like to take us to Pokemon Stadium. I'm not certain why. I guess it's a good stage for him, and the transformations allow him to use his speed to control space, but largely it doesn't change the match-up much. Abuse platforms as much as possible, go for grabs, punish bad spacing/DI. The only "bad" stage I view really is Dream Land. This is because Fox has plenty of room to move around, and Marth can not use the platforms to abuse him as much. However, it has a high ceiling, so his main kill on you is also hurting because of this selection. I view the match as very even on this stage.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Final Destination
Bad Stages: Dreamland, Pokemon Stadium (I guess)
The rest of the counter picks are fairly bad for both, so I won't bother listing them (this is a bit rule specific, but in general you will be fighting on the stages above if the Fox has much sense).
Marth vs Falco
55/45, Marth
Alright, so a lot of Marth's will hate me for that number. The typical Marth player coming up is so worried about lasers. This is true, lasers are annoying. Go to the Falco boards, they will QQ about how lasers are bad, only 3 frames of hit stun, etc. The reality is we have a lot of answers to their lasers, and they will be described here briefly, or in detail in the following thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102497
That being said, your biggest worries in this match-up are Falco's laser approach and his devastating combos.
Originally, this match-up was thought to be heavily in Marth's favor. While, I still think it is in his favor, it's certainly not a 70/30+ match-up like it might have been viewed once upon a time. Falco can not out camp you, contrary to popular belief. Any good Falco player would agree with me that they have to approach. If the Falco simply laser camps you, he eliminates his only way to win the match -- pressuring you.
The way most Falco's view this match is to laser camp approaches until an opening appears, abuse that opening, and combo you. They also apply very good shield pressure if their tech skill is up to par. Your defense against this is as follows:
Against lasers, follow the guide referenced above. Full hopping over them to approach (note: this doesn't mean full hop over them and fair them. Yes that works sometimes, but in general you want to hop over the lasers, land, and maintain a space such that them jumping is punishable... be situational), power shielding them, shielding them then wave dashing out of shield.
That brings me to another point, do not camp in your shield in this match-up. Falco's love to pressure you. I think they secretly get off to it. The more you stay in shield, the less options of controlling space and pacing you have.
However, against any good Falco you will inevitably be forced into shield from the pressure. Watch M2K vs Shiz/DRPP/Mango/etc, it happens, and there is nothing you can do to completely avoid it (simply try to mitigate it as much as possible). Your options are basically to watch his aerials. Falco can throw his aerials early or late. I will explain the chains and responses to them.
Falco can approach with an early aerial or late aerial. If he approaches with an early aerial (Also read: Rising Aerials), then you can shield grab him just after the aerial hits your shield. If he approaches with a late aerial, the chain will go as follows:
Late Aerial -> Shine -> then options come. I think most Falco's will attempt to continue the pressure by jumping and throwing another aerial. If it is a late aerial again, you have time to escape the pressure either with a roll, wavedash, or some aerial/grab out of shield (spacing dependant). I'd like to note here that rolling out of pressure is what a lot of high levels Marth's are forced to do. It is punishable, but sometimes it's better than risking the wavedash/aerial out of shield.
However, they can throw out an early aerial (making the whole pressure chain Late -> Shine -> Early), in which case if you tried to grab/escape after the shine, you'd eat an aerial. If this chain happens (you have to predict it... try to watch how Falco is using his aerials), then you want to attempt an escape after the early aerial.
What should you take away from this? Shield grabbing Falco is possible but difficult. It is a viable option if their pressure is sub-par, and a possible option if it is good. Better ways to avoid shield pressure are wave dashing out of shield or fairing out of shield, depending on the timing/spacing. If their pressure is too much then you can always attempt a roll, but expect to be punished if this becomes a habit.
In general, Falco will attempt to approach with lasers and shield pressure. Try to avoid those at all cost, as if they are successful it is likely you will be combo'd badly. When in one of their combos, try to DI away while throwing fairs if they are near you. Some Falco's will bait those, especially if they hear you doing it on the controller. Try to be mindful of this and then just DI out if that situation happens.
If you can get around that and space Falco well, you should be able to get grabs or dash attacks in ways similar to Fox. Once you get those, you want to punish them in the same ways as you do against Fox. There are some slight variations, which I will cover, but the general idea is this:
From grabs, you want to chain grab uthrow Falco. However, at 0% you will need to fthrow him once, regrab, then proceed to uthrow. At around 22% is when you need to pivot grab Falco, or go for utilt regrab. At about 40% you need to do uair/utilt combinations and finish with an fsmash around 60-70%+ for a ledgeguard attempt.
From fair/nairs (if you can abuse them while he is in the air), you want to work it into an utilt combo chain. Nair followed by a grab works situationally. In general, you want to observe the situation after your aerials hit because it's very DI dependent as to what you can do. It will usually lead to an utilt or grab if you spaced it properly though (or just finish it with an fsmash if the Falco is at kill percent).
From tipped dash attacks, simply utilt combo or finish with an fsmash. See Fox's match-up for more options on killing Falco.
See Fox section for ideas on gimping the space animals.
Stage selection:
You want to take Falco to Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, or Fountain of Dreams. All three of these stages provide you with plenty of options for lasers and spacing so you can stay out of shield and able to punish. Get him in a grab combo or on a platform, abuse his openings, and stay good with your edge game. It will lead to short stocks and impressive combos.
I personally think Final Destination is not bad for this match-up, but it lets him use his lasers a lot. Avoid this and Dream Land for the same reason. Pokemon Stadium is not a bad stage for this match-up, but the transformations are generally in Falco's favor, and you gain very little on it compared to the "good" stages.
In stage striking, play on one of the three good stages. If you get the win, ban Dream Land and you will be taken to FD or Pokemon. If you win, grats, if you lose then take him to the third of the "good" stages (one being unable to be chosen due to DSR if you won, and the second due to a ban from the smart Falco).
Good Stages: Yoshi's Island, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Final Destination
Bad Stages: Dream Land, Pokemon Stadium
Marth vs. Jigglypuff
60/40, Marth
After talking with more people about this, Jiggs players view this match-up as more towards the even side rather than in Marth's favor. I'm not certain I agree with this, but I will back pedal from my stand point of it forcing her to change characters or camp. I think the puff will still try to camp you and play the same way as described below, but Mahone pointed out to me that when puff does get an opening she gets a lot more out of it than the Marth. So I have changed the match-up to reflect 60/40. It might even be 55/45, but either way I view this in Marth's favor.
What Jigglypuff is going to try and do is space and shield your attacks, wait for an opening, then go in for uair combos, rests, etc. Another tactic Jigglypuff players use is crouching grabs/dash attacks. You want to basically abuse your range in this matchup, play patiently, and combo fairs with inner hits (by using SH double fair). If you do get a safe grab on her, use fthrow at low percents, followed by a tipper fsmash if they DI in, and attempt fair combos if they DI up or away.
At higher percents, killing her can be hard as not a lot combos. If you get the grab, try to mix up back and down throws to fish for bad DI. Be ready to punish with aerials or fsmash. At kill percent, you can try for the side-b to utilt combo, which will kill. Utilt in general is a great kill against floaty characters on Marth. It's something to keep in mind against a Jigglypuff.
Largely this match-up is more about knowing Jigglypuff tricks and being patient. You out range her and it's a bad match-up. Time aerials properly, do not be quick to approach, and wait for her to make mistakes. Do not throw bad grabs or dash attacks, or you will likely be punished with a rest. At high percents, understand that rest is a trade. If she rests you at 50-70% or more (stage dependent), then she is dead when you come back. Simply DI down to flat line it and die faster, come back, neutral b or charge fsmash her and you take the stock.
I make this sound insanely simple, but there are great Jiggs players out there who aren't scared of too many Marth's. Hbox and Mango are both amazing puffs and I think some people might be reading this and saying "Wut?" In reality, they are amazing players. You will have trouble with amazing players in ANY match-up. Spacing is important, and if people can out space you, then all of your moves mean nothing. Be mindful of this, and play this patiently. If you are losing, just try to read up on puff tactics and keep your mind right during the match.
Another note on this is that dash dancing works well in controlling the space. Acting like you're retreating with your dash dance then wavedashing in for a tipped fsmash can be brilliant. I love this option against a lot of floaties. In general, keep your mind on getting first hits, and not being greedy for the combo.
Stage selection:
You basically want to take her anywhere with a low ceiling and where she can't camp too hard. Yoshi's Story is an obvious choice for this. It will likely only get played if you can counter-pick there. Puff will strike this stage first, and ban it if she wins.
The rest of the stages aren't terribly in your favor. The only two you want to avoid are Dream Land and Brinstar. Brinstar is a notorious counter pick for puff players. While Marth I don't feel is "terrible" here, it is in his disadvantage. If you get taken here (because you didn't ban it for some reason), then just try to space well. Unfortunately on this stage I feel you are forced to approach her more than usual. Do so, be careful, and try to just space everything perfectly.
Strike Dream Land this first and attempt to take her somewhere you can space well at. I'd say go with personal preference.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Final Destination (debatable, but I like it), and Pokemon Stadium (has a lower ceiling than FD)
Bad Stages: Dream Land, Brinstar, Kongo Jungle, Fountain of Dreams (I've heard this has a high ceiling, and I personally don't like it)
Puff has good counter pick stages. Be careful of it, and realize losing a match against a good puff on a counter pick stage is almost expected. Simply counter pick back to Yoshi's (if they don't ban it) or whatever you prefer and be patient.
Marth vs. Sheik
40,60, Sheik
This match is a hard one for Marth's, and has made me want to have a pocket puff on more than one occasion. While it is considered largely in Sheik's favor, it is not impossible.
The Sheik is going to try and take control of this match. Needles are very important for her in her match against space animals. In this case needles are good for stopping our approaches, but not much else. In other words, they have to attack. If they choose to play defensive or apply little to no pressure, then Marth will take control of the match and ultimately shut the Sheik down. They are very aware of this and will seek to apply a strong pressure and punish game.
They are going to play this match largely on the ground in terms of approach. They might try needle things or empty hops, but approaching from the air is NOT in their favor, because we can punish with fair combos which ultimately lead to fsmashes. So, you can expect them to go for grabs on you. They get a LOT more out of grabs than you do in this match-up. Well, not a lot, but Sheik isn't the best combo fodder from our grabs.
They will basically try for grab or tilt combos at low percents, then tilt/grab to fair finishers at 70%+. Sheik will attempt to down throw combo you from 0 until 20ish percent, if I'm not mistaken. After that she can down throw, ftilt, regrab. Then after THAT she can downthrow to uair and juggle with her uairs until about 70%.
Let me pause here. I must admit those numbers are somewhat estimated, and taken from Sheik boards. I have played Tope on several occasions (an amazing Sheik near me), and the combos really are that brutal. If you allow him to control the match then they will get off all over you. Once you're at about 70% it's a very dangerous match. I believe their dthrow to fair is guaranteed. The best thing you can do in that case is attempt to DI in and hope you can make it back.
If you're in her combos I'd just say DI down and away, and pray for a tech. In the air combos you can try to DI away and swat her with your own fair, but similar to Falco, they can just bait that if it's predictable.
That's basically what you want to avoid. Playing this match-up will probably perfect your spacing (pending it's a good Sheik). You need to always maintain that perfect space between you two and punish her approaches. I say space, space, space so much in this guide. I know by now it's redundant, but I want every Marth to understand that you will not be able to muscle your way into placement at tournaments with tech skill alone.
What you should be doing is going for aerial combos. Uthrow is probably your best option from a grab, as fthrow -> fsmash can be DI'd, but is good at low percents, and down/backthrow are glorified tech chases. Bthrow is nice if they DI improperly, so a good fthrow/bthrow mixup could work your way into an fsmash, but it is risky to play the grab game too heavily here because Sheik's grab punish you a lot.
So, try to uthrow Sheik and she has two options: Air dodge or jump. If she does neither then she eats an utilt to a combo. If she air dodges it's a reset, because you regrab (**CONFIRM THIS**). So basically uthrow forces MOST Sheiks to use their jump, then you want to push for fair/nair/uair/utilt combos that ultimately end in an fsmash with an edgeguard opportunity. These won't always work and are certainly not as pretty or rigid as on space animals. Best advice I can give is keep abusing your SH retreating double fair and if she gets out of combos then just keep playing a patient game of spacing.
Now, in terms of edge game I'd say both players have each others numbers. Marth trying to recover from below the stage can be easily punished by Sheik, so try to mix up your recoveries. In terms of the Sheik recovery just standard edge game stuff. Dtilt to cover the edge, space it perfect, then fsmash if they recover high (edge game is much deeper than that, but read another guide for that). Also, don't get fancy against Sheik. Sometimes you just need to take the ledge and edgehog straight up. The same thing applies to Peach.
Stage selection:
You want to take her somewhere which her chain throws can be teched or escaped easier (in other words, make it as hard for her to hurt you as possible). Both players benefit decently from platforms I'd say, though. Typically Marth's try to go for Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, or Fountain of Dreams in this match-up. However, I'd say that Sheik has amazing tech chases when you're both on platforms, so be careful of that. However, they provide you a way to camp the "bottom" level and tech out of the combos a bit better. Try to take her to a platform stage, bait a grab, get her on a platform, and combo her.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams
Bad Stages Dream Land, Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium
While I think Pokemon is better than the other two, they all have long, flat areas for which to chain throw. The transformations on Pokemon are better for you than Sheik though (opinionated), so it's viable if you must.
Marth vs. Peach
60,40, Marth
Because I didn't mention it in the body of this: Don't crouch cancel Peach's dsmash. It will put you back into the ground and hit you with it many, many times. It can do upwards of 60 damage if you crouch cancel the entire thing. Getting hit while she's on a platform and you're below can also have this effect. THIS WILL HURT. A LOT. OW.
Onward...
This matchup is pretty straight forward conceptually. The best example of this, despite the Marth losing, is M2K vs Armada at Pound 4, game 1. He plays this very well and showcases how spacing and tech skill benefit you in this matchup.
To begin, Peach can not approach you. I know this seems counter intuitive, as she has a projectile (and like I've said above, not a lot of people can camp Marth... just be patient and wait for it. If you disagree, go read Mango's guide on puff. He says just wait for it -- always). However, if you are maintaining the spacing to pressure her then pulling out a turnip should be something Peach does at a cost.
Let me explain what I mean by that: As stated above, Marth should be pressuring with his spacing in such a way that opponents can not do laggy moves, like pull out turnips, for free. In this matchup the spacing should not be so tight that you can literally fsmash her for pulling one out, but when she does she loses a lot of her options against you that you should be able to punish.
For example, when peach is holding a turnip she can not shield grab you. Use this to apply pressure to her shield and force her into the air, which is exactly where you want a Peach. Also it eliminates her dash attack, which is huge for her in this matchup.
That spacing aside, Peach is going to try and turnip camp for an approach. As Marth you need to bait this and pressure that with spacing, as mentioned above. Once she gets in she will try to get you in the air with uairs, and punish bad spacing with dsmash. In the air she can try and go for nair/fair hits which are big kills moves at high percent. If you are unfortunate enough to be playing someone on Armada's level, they will probably punish you a lot harder than just one dsmash for bad spacing.
In terms of what the Marth wants to do, you have a lot of options. Retreating SH double fair is very good in this match up, and when Peach has a turnip out it's generally pretty safe on her shield. Tipped dash attacks don't get you a whole lot in this matchup, but from it you can generally follow it with a bair to fair(x2/x3) combo. From grabs you really have two options: f/d/bthrow mixups, or uthrow and try to juggle. With the first, if she DI's poorly or misses a tech, you can fsmash tip her at reasonable percents (like less then 80, above that I think she'll float away regardless, bthrow aside). However with uthrow it's generally safe and Peach is bad in the air above you. You should try for this and keep her pressured in the air.
Your biggest kills are going to be SH double fair chains to a spike (if you're lucky), inner fair her far enough away from the stage where can can't really float back and get the ledge (unlikely, but it happens), tipped fsmashes from spacing/throws, or an utilt at a kill percent (120~+). A good way to setup for the utilt is one hit of the side b. You can be dash dancing, run at peach, side b, then utilt. It comes out very fast and is a great way to finish Peach off.
To summarize this matchup: On the ground maintain space with dash dancing and pressure her with that space so pulling out a turnip is not a free operation. You should be trying to get in with fairs or grabs, dash attacks also work. Once you are in, try to juggle her in the air. Peach is fodder for the infamous "Ken Combo," so try to get her with SH double fair chains often. Certain grabs can get you tipped fsmashes, but it's not reliable outside of being a mixup so I'd say uthrow often. Don't underestimate the utilt kill, as it works wonders. Use side b to set it up. Watch the video cited at the start of this matchup and watch how M2K controls the space vs Armada, and the commentary is good about this matchup.
Stage selection:
Dreamland is generally bad for you in this matchup, as Peach becomes very difficult to kill. Yoshi's is great because of a low ceiling which will make your utilt kill sooner (and it's smaller, so tipped fsmashes will kill sooner, etc... platforms, etc. If you've read this guide start to finish like you should've, these points are redundant =D). I like Final Destination in this matchup. Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield I might avoid just because the platforms you don't benefit from a whole lot (I suppose if she's on them you can pressure from the side and below with fairs) and it's risky because her dsmash can eat you when Peach is on a platform and you're not careful.
I'm going to say FoD is a bad stage, only because the moving platforms are less optimal to deal with than the battlefield platforms. But realize in this matchup, so much of it is not as rigid as Marth vs Spacies, so you should play around with it, determine what stages you like the best. These are definitely just suggestions in this case. And as everyone who plays me knows, I generally don't like FoD.
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story, Final Destination, Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium
Bad Stages Dream Land, Fountain of Dreams
Marth vs. Falcon
Marth vs. MARTH?!
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