Marth match-up thread

[KingMak]

Uh, what? I hope you're joking lol.

Also, interesting what Meep said. I've never played vs a great MK, or a Lucario for that matter. Makes me want to start playing Luc lol

Lucario is always a pain in the *** to play, my friend used to main him. But really all you need to know is in Emblem Lord's first post. Just watch for those lingering hitboxes, and predict when he's going to roll. It's not hard to dodge uncharged Aura Spheres. and it's very easy to predict when he's going to launch a fully charged one.

 

[meepxzero]

emblem lord u should come down to md/va for critical hit 4 total prize money is garenteed 3k total. Might be the first biggest brawl tourney in july. Forte is a marth slayer..... Hes probably the only mk player that is making me have doubts about the match up, but i only played him once in crews so I cant really gauge the match up that much against a really good mk. But your right no other mk gives me problems anymore. A good mk can follow up so many attacks if marth leaves himself open for a second. Its like battling sheik in melee.

 

[phi1ny3]

Uh, what? I hope you're joking lol.

Also, interesting what Meep said. I've never played vs a great MK, or a Lucario for that matter. Makes me want to start playing Luc lol

Very true. Most "good" Lucarios are uber lazy, and don't go to tourneys (I'm still a work in progress). MK attracts a lot of players, but there are actually very few that are skilled and go to tourneys. Btw, there's a funny (albeit provoking) sig I found on a Samus player that bashes Marths seriously (well, at least those who main him).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Samus is *** and the Samus boards are dead so I lol@ that sig everytime I see it.

Also meep, Forte is one of the best players on the EC, so don't take one match with him too seriously ok?

Also there are alot more good MK's then good Marth's so you will see alot more MK's beat Marth's simply due to that fact.

The match-up itself is very close though, it's just it's far easier to play MK and do well then it is with Marth.

This fact can really disillusion players into thinking that Marth isn't that good when he really is.

Remember that match-ups and tier list are done when all characters full potential within human limits is taken into account and all viable strats are accounted for.

 

[Kenrawr]

MK ***** marth =/
It doesn't even take a Forte to pull it off -.- Once MK has Marth in the air all he has to do it keep up his juggle. Marth's spacing can't keep up =[
5-5 is not right at all -_- Even my mk [a textbook/pick-up char] can take marth mains -.-

 

[Emblem Lord]

No one juggles Marth sir.

Marth can just counter or neutral to screw up MK's timing and spacing.

Or he can just attack.

You will have to state a little more then that if you want to convince anyone that MK ***** Marth.

MK is definitely easier to **** with, but he doesn't **** Marth.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

No one juggles Marth sir.

Marth can just counter or neutral to screw up MK's timing and spacing.

Or he can just attack.

You will have to state a little more then that if you want to convince anyone that MK ***** Marth.

MK is definitely easier to **** with, but he doesn't **** Marth.

QFT

Believe it or not, this is a pretty moderate opinion, ask Gimpyfish what he thinks Marth does to MK and then see what you get.

 

[Kenrawr]

No one juggles Marth sir.

Marth can just counter or neutral to screw up MK's timing and spacing.

Or he can just attack.

You will have to state a little more then that if you want to convince anyone that MK ***** Marth.

MK is definitely easier to **** with, but he doesn't **** Marth.

I try the counter all the time :3 It's pretty 50/50, it either saves you or just gets you juggled more T_T

And as for the "just attack".. Say MK is doing u-airs from under you, as marth do you attempt a dair? xD

Also Meta can gimp a marth with ease and chase them off the stage.

-.- Unless it's a tipper I think meta's dsmash is a better finisher than marth's fsmash :x

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

^ It depends whether or not fsmash is spammed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I certainly wouldn't say MK can gimp Marth with ease especially at lower percents.

Also you could airdodge when he tries to combo you.

Yes, his D-smash is better then your f-smash untipped. Why would you even compare Marth's untipped f-smash to anything?

It's a fact that it sucks when not tipped.

So what? You act as though an untipped f-smash is one of his best options.

It isn't.

 

[Kenrawr]

A meta d-air is very good at edgegaurding the marth >_>

And what I was trying to say about the smashes was meta seems to be the better finisher.
I'm not acting as if it's his best option... please don't assume. I was trying to match up arguably both of their best finishers. -_-
Air dodging doesn't always work...

 

[Emblem Lord]

But MK isn't the better finisher. He is the better edgeguarder.

Of course MK can gimp Marth, but it's not easy. Marth is one of the harder characters to gimp you know. But it goes both ways too. Just like Marth can be gimped, MK can be killed early thanks to his low weight and the good knockback on Marth's smashes.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

K-9, don't argue with Emblem Lord, your just setting yourself up for an Epic Failure. He really knows what he is talking about.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Meta Knight and Marth is not an even matchup in the least. Get out of here with that fanboy crap. MK > Marth, easy. /topic

 

[Kenrawr]

But MK isn't the better finisher. He is the better edgeguarder.

Of course MK can gimp Marth, but it's not easy. Marth is one of the harder characters to gimp you know. But it goes both ways too. Just like Marth can be gimped, MK can be killed early thanks to his low weight and the good knockback on Marth's smashes.

I disagree, his finishers are so much better than marths. His edge game [as you agreed] is also superior. The only way a meta can be gimped by marth is an early tipper...
The weight hardly makes a difference. Yes MK is light but his finishers>marth's, Marth has a hard time even landing a finisher on a meta, let alone his smashes aren't even that strong.

Edit: TKD, stop being his cheerleader. How about contributing something that proves me wrong? :3

 

[phi1ny3]

I disagree, his finishers are so much better than marths. His edge game [as you agreed] is also superior. The only way a meta can be gimped by marth is an early tipper...
The weight hardly makes a difference. Yes MK is light but his finishers>marth's, Marth has a hard time even landing a finisher on a meta, let alone his smashes aren't even that strong.

Edit: TKD, stop being his cheerleader. How about contributing something that proves me wrong? :3

And ME SAY IT EVEN!
RAWR!
MK has some good moves, but u sound like getting a tipper is impossible with a Marth. C'mon, like Lucarios, Marths live and breath spacing, so it's not that hard. Besides, MK has finishers that are fewer, hence more predictable (and don't say a smash is one of these finishers, bcuz if u think about it, when one is fighting MK, he is so used to the heightened awareness and speed of attacks (notice how the clock hanging on the wall seems to slow), that a MK smash seems an eternity). UpB is decent, but like I said, fewer options means not so good unpredictability.

 

[Ciel~Image]

Meta Knight and Marth is not an even matchup in the least. Get out of here with that fanboy crap. MK > Marth, easy. /topic

Wow, thank you for clearing that up. I guess we can all go home now! *salutes Emblem Lord*

 

[Emblem Lord]

How the hell are MK's finshers better then Marth's?

MK's best kill move is his d-smash and his up b. Marth has all his smashes and his up b as well.

Everlasting yayuhzz: You'll have to do better then that and if you can't then don't post plz.

 

[Kenrawr]

When did I imply getting a tipper with Marth is impossible? No duh lucarios[which made no sense to bring in] and Marth's rely on spacing. It's just that their fair wall or w/e you do just can't keep up with a MK >_<!! Your finisher statement was pretty stupid btw =/ MK has more options than a Marth with less of a chance to get punished -_-

Edit: So what? Marth has one more finishing smash than MK, the only one that is really even deadly is his fsmash. His dsmash is predictable and it leaves him incredibly vulnerable. His upsmash is hard to land and rarely scores kills for Marth -.-

Why does MK need useless smashes when he has his dair that ****s marth up? :3

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

How the hell are MK's finshers better then Marth's?

MK's best kill move is his d-smash and his up b. Marth has all his smashes and his up b as well.

Everlasting yayuhzz: You'll have to do better then that and if you can't then don't post plz.

I don't think you're a mod, and I don't think you can tell me where I can and cannot post. Get off your highhorse, queer. Marth and MK is not an even match-up, I don't care what "facts" you throw at me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The options that Marth has limit MK's options though, which is really what makes it even.

Just because someone ahs more options doesn't mean all those options are viable in the match-up.

Marth's fair and d-tilt force MK to wait. He CANNOT rushdown, because if he tries he runs that risk of being hit. This means Mart hhas control on the stage. MK is forced to play a more patient game and rely more on his ground game and his tornado. Marth outranges MK on the ground, although just barely and Marth has the tools to stop MK's b moves.

So essential MK is forced to play the mix-up game and really watch Marth's movements and find an opening.

When he gets a hit in he can do some damage though, which really helps him out.

It's even.

everlasting yayuhzz: My bad. Meant to say don't post without evidence. Anyone can post 2 or 3 sentences as fact.

Also stop insulting me. It's childish.

You don't care if I throw facts at you?

So not only are you acting childish, but you are stubborn as well?

Cut the **** plz. You embarrass yourself.

 

[Ciel~Image]

I don't think you're a mod, and I don't think you can tell me where I can and cannot post. Get off your highhorse, queer. Marth and MK is not an even match-up, I don't care what "facts" you throw at me.

Banned for flaming.

"Those who know what they're talking about and can have intelligent discussions talk,
Those who don't should just shut up and leave Smashboards." - Yuna, 2008

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I don't think you got the quotations around facts. It means your facts aren't really true, but your opinion, which is wrong. But, whatever, I've seen your posts, and you're hell-bent on defending Marth into oblivion. There is nothing anyone can say to change your mind on Marth, you're the stubborn one.

And Ciel-leader, stop riding EL like a rodeo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

K-9: U-smash isn't hard to land at all.

Also yes MK has a nice Dair. But you act like MK is gimping Marth at 20% and then Marth is gone. This isn't the case.

First you say MK has more finishers then when I prove you wrong, you say well MK doesn't need them cuz he has Dair.

Seems like you are fishing for reasons for MK to be superior to Marth or something. Which you don't have to do.

I don't need anyone to tell me that MK is better then Marth overall. But I'm talking about the match-up itself.

everlasting yuyuhzz: Hell bent on defending Marth?

Yes, you could be right since everyone on this community seems hell bent on proving he sucks ***.

Regardless of what you think of me, I have poured alot of work into advancing Marth's metagame and no one can say that I don't do my fair share in the Marth forums.

I honestly don't even know why you came in here and started some **** with me.

Debate with me if you like. I don't care. Also IMO Marth vs MK isn't even. But this match-up thread isn't about my opinion at all. I have to remain unbiased when making this list and go by facts that are presented to me. Nothing that K-9, or meep said was unknown to me before which is why I countered thier arguments with evidence or didn't really budge on the match-up.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I don't think Marth sucks ***, no one does, not anyone with any sense. You're arguing with noobs, which is pointless. MK still beats Marth, he has everything needed to beat Marth.

 

[Kenrawr]

MK's best kill move is his d-smash and his up b. Marth has all his smashes and his up b as well.

Just because someone ahs more options doesn't mean all those options are viable in the match-up.

Contradiction? :x
Marth doesn't pressure MK at all... it's the other way around. Marth uses fair, MK uses his FASTER fair[which can actually lead into combos]

You haven't fought very many metas, have you? =/
If Marth uses dtilt....welp, MK has wings for a reason.

Edit: WHOA, when did you ever prove me wrong about MK having more finishers?

 

[Emblem Lord]

When someone says finshers I'm thinking any move that KO's directly.

Marth has more of those types of moves then MK.

Contradiction? Tose two statements don't contradict each other at all. Unless you are implying that Marth's smashes aren't viable options in the match-up. Which would be wrong because they are.

I never said Marth pressures MK. I won't address this at all, since I siad nothing of the sort.

I have beaten the second best MK in NJ in tourney with my Marth and he has beaten me. But I don't think this means anything IMO.

MK's fair doesnt lead into combos. This is false.

everlasting yuyuhzz: You are correct. I debate with noobs alot. But you are not a noob. You are in the SBR.

So...show me what you got.

It could be fun.

You still didn't answer as to why you posted in this thread.

I don't think someone in the SBR would care what I have to say about match-ups, considering that I'm a nobody. Maybe you were bored or something.

*shrugs

 

[Emblem Lord]

Double post.

K-9: I just remembered that I said Marth can pressure MK with fairs in the first post. I don't know if you were referring to that or not though.

 

[Kenrawr]

You spoke of how marth forces MK into tough situations, blah blah blah, hence the pressuring.

MK's fair can lead into combos. This is true. May I link you to 120837182 youtube vids? :3

You implied Marth had much more options than MK...then it looks as if you admitted MK does in fact have more options... just not as "viable."

Who's the 2nd best MK in NJ jw? If you don't think it means anything, don't mention it :3

Edit: Yep.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His name is teh spammerer. I mentioned it because you asked if I had played any good MK's.

Eh, I should probably change that line, since it implies something that I didn't mean to say. I'll re-word it later I guess. Or I might leave it. I'll look over it though.

MK's fair leads to nothing. It's a set-up move, but it doesn't lead to a guarunteed follow-up attack.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Double post...agian.

Just read the first post again. I'll leave it since the point of putting that pressure on his shield is to get him to try to approach you and get past your sword.

And Marth can pressure MK. Fair and D-tilt have enough speed and shieldstun to be safe on block.

 

[Kenrawr]

MK's fair leads to nothing. It's a set-up move, but it doesn't lead to a guarunteed follow-up attack.

Wait wha? You say it leads to nothing then admit it's a set-up move?
>_<

And Marth's dtilt is indeed fast :3 Yet still.. all you have to do is play the air x]
Marth's fair isn't fast enough.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I don't think Marth sucks ***, no one does, not anyone with any sense. You're arguing with noobs, which is pointless. MK still beats Marth, he has everything needed to beat Marth.

Arguing with noobs is pointless? Marcel (Emblem Lord) doesn't care about who he's debating with, as long as both sides are receiving knowledge out of it. Doesn't matter if you're a seasoned vet, or someone that just picked up the game. It's called a desire to share knowledge and help the community. Believe it or not, I've gone into matchups in tourney blind, having no previous experience, but pulled out the win due to Emblem Lord's advice he gives in his matchup thread and on AIM. I take tournaments very seriously, so naturally I'm very gratious and appreciative of the time he spends writing his stuff up and sharing his knowledge. The reason a lot of pros don't help the community is because they feel that helping noobs is pointless, which is their choice, and I respect that decision. But don't try to stop anyone else from helping out just because you feel it's pointless.

Also, what is this "everything" needed to beat Marth? I'm genuinely interested, so do explain.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When I say lead to nothing I mean it doesn't have enough hit stun that MK can do something after it and it's guarunteed to hit.

Set-up move just means it puts them in a bad position that MK can take advantage of.

If MK starts jumping around or abusing SH's then Marth has his f-tilt or Dancing Blade to fall back on.

The idea is to force MK to do something like that so Marth can take advantage of it.

Marth shouldn't be going fair to fair vs MK. Marth's fair is used as a wall in this match-up.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Edit: So what? Marth has one more finishing smash than MK, the only one that is really even deadly is his fsmash. His dsmash is predictable and it leaves him incredibly vulnerable. His upsmash is hard to land and rarely scores kills for Marth -.-

Why does MK need useless smashes when he has his dair that ****s marth up? :3

Ok, to begin with all of Marth's smashes are good. I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it is severely flawed.

Correct, his Fsmash is deadly.

Incorrect, his Dsmash is not predictable. In fact, it's very unpredictable due to Marth's amazing options. He has the ability to be played very creatively, and due to his massive killing options, none of his moves are predictable.

His Usmash is probably his 2nd best killing move. It has amazing range due to it's cyclone effect, and has extreme knockback. It is an amazing move, and can be used to punish out of shield easily. If someone attacks your shield at a higher percent, consider them dead due to Usmash.

Everyone of his Smashes are great, something that other characters would die for.

Why does MK need smashes when his Dair messes Marth up? Please, stop acting like this, use your brain. Every character benefits from options, and a wide array of attacks. So his Dair does well vs Marth...Is that it? So now you don't need anything else? Ok, go fight a good Marth, and try to use your Dair on him all day. You'll be wishing that you learned more tactics/MK had more moves to fight Marth with.

Also, MK doesn't suck, that's not what I'm trying to imply with my last paragraph. I'm simply stating that you're actin a fool for saying MK doesn't need smashes when he can rely on his Dair.

3 REASONS WHY NOT TO RELY ON ONE MOVE

1. Attack deterioration
2. It gets predictable
3. It doesn't look cool at all

 

[Kenrawr]

When I say lead to nothing I mean it doesn't have enough hit stun that MK can do something after it and it's guarunteed to hit.

Set-up move just means it puts them in a bad position that MK can take advantage of.

Stop making dumb statements like these!!! You say it can't lead into anything then contradict yourself by saying that it gives MK the advantage! It makes me question your credibility >_<

Fairs are not good enough against MK. I see Marth's crash and burn trying to play it smart with fairs all the time.
I'm tired of debating. -.- If you want to keep backing up Marth and pulling your little followers down with you, be my guest :3 (look up Forte Vs. LOZR on youtube sometime btw.)
Later :3

Edit:

Ok, to begin with all of Marth's smashes are good. I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it is severely flawed.

Correct, his Fsmash is deadly.

Incorrect, his Dsmash is not predictable. In fact, it's very unpredictable due to Marth's amazing options. He has the ability to be played very creatively, and due to his massive killing options, none of his moves are predictable.

His Usmash is probably his 2nd best killing move. It has amazing range due to it's cyclone effect, and has extreme knockback. It is an amazing move, and can be used to punish out of shield easily. If someone attacks your shield at a higher percent, consider them dead due to Usmash.

Everyone of his Smashes are great, something that other characters would die for.

Why does MK need smashes when his Dair messes Marth up? Please, stop acting like this, use your brain. Every character benefits from options, and a wide array of attacks. So his Dair does well vs Marth...Is that it? So now you don't need anything else? Ok, go fight a good Marth, and try to use your Dair on him all day. You'll be wishing that you learned more tactics/MK had more moves to fight Marth with.

Mmmm, tough guy eh :o yeah.. EmblemLord doesn't need an echo. And his upb is his second best finisher imo.

I have already faced good Marths, kk gg STFU.

Later again :3

 

[JesiahTEG]

Mmmm, tough guy eh :o yeah.. EmblemLord doesn't need an echo. And his upb is his second best finisher imo.

I have already faced good Marths, kk gg STFU.

Later again :3

How do you question Emblem Lord's credibility when you come in and say stuff like "I have already faced good Marths, kk gg STFU." To play with good Marths, would mean you play with good players. For the most part, good players are not idiots. If you played with good players who are not idiots, then chances are you would not act like an idiot. But you are, leading me to believe you have not played with good players, or good Marth players for that matter.

You lie in Virginia? Go play with TA, go to their tournies and let them steal your money so you can see first hand what a good player is like.

Also, I'm not echoing Emblem Lord. I'm saying what I feel like saying.

 

[Emblem Lord]

K-9: If you don't know the difference between a combo set-up and a move that sets-up for positioning advantage then we are indeed, done debating.

Also I ask no one to follow me.

I guess people just have an eye for greatness.

haha.

 

[JesiahTEG]

LOL Wow, that was messed up that you said that son. But mad funny.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

Great guide but i would suggest spaceing it out so it could be a bit easier to read.