Marth Match-Up Discussion (Update: ZSS!)

[Scraptor]

I didn't realize I hit this thread with D throw because you guys followed up quickly and in full force on this thread.

 

[KenMeister]

You trampled them I assume? XD

Seriously guys, this is awesome. We need to storm other characters' threads more. Particularly that pesky Hero's.



I don't always get edgeguarded by a Marth,

but when I do, it isn't pretty.

Ganon mains storming the Link Social threads would be the best thing ever.

 

[_Magus_]

Ask the Zelda boards. They are doing that already and they get ton of followers.

I apologize for being off topic Marth boards. I want to add that Marth can also D-tilt poke our shield safely.

Pretty sure our d tilt outranges his.

Ganon mains storming the Link Social threads would be the best thing ever.

I say we do it tonight! Let us take our vengeance elsewhere, and leave these Marth mains in peace.

Let's storm the Link Social tonight! Who's with me!?!?!?!
@ A2ZOMG @ Opana @Ray_Kalm @ THE 6r @ the king of murder @JmacAttack

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's even. Same playstyle. Different tools. Marth is more mobile and WAY better at getting out of bad situations. Ganons reward is truly fearsome and MUST be respected. Ganon has better mix-ups while Marth is generally safer. They both edgegaurd the hell out of each other.

Any Ganon players wanna throw down?

Gonna be on for the next 4 hours. NNID is ShinEmblemLord

 

[Opana]

Only 3 for now, that good?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't understand lol

 

[Opana]

Meant 3ds lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

oh sorry lol. nah my router is in the basement so 3DS will lag horribly for me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's even. Same playstyle. Different tools. Marth is more mobile and WAY better at getting out of bad situations. Ganons reward is truly fearsome and MUST be respected. Ganon has better mix-ups while Marth is generally safer. They both edgegaurd the hell out of each other.

Any Ganon players wanna throw down?

Gonna be on for the next 4 hours. NNID is ShinEmblemLord

If you're on, I will play you now.

 

[the king of murder]

Pretty sure our d tilt outranges his.

You are right. What I actaully meant is how his D-tilt is a lot faster than any of our OoS options so he can just poke around with nothing to fear as he can just hit the shield button afterwards.

 

[THE 6r]

It's a dead heat. Ganon counters tippers and spacing while Marth literally counters and has greater mobility.

Pretty sure our d tilt outranges his.


I say we do it tonight! Let us take our vengeance elsewhere, and leave these Marth mains in peace.

Let's storm the Link Social tonight! Who's with me!?!?!?!
@ A2ZOMG @ Opana @Ray_Kalm @ THE 6r @ the king of murder @JmacAttack

In the words of Captain Falcon"YEAS!"

By the way, where did you guys get these chairs? Yeah I heard the Brawl high tiers got good stuff but dang we could use some of these in the lair.

 

[Locuan]

Hey @ THE 6r . I merged your posts. Be careful with double posting as it is against the Smashboards Terms of Service and Rules. When needed, use the edit option to add the information to your previous post.

 

[THE 6r]

Hey @ THE 6r . I merged your posts. Be careful with double posting as it is against the Smashboards Terms of Service and Rules. When needed, use the edit option to add the information to your previous post.

Sorry about. Still new to the site

 

[Emblem Lord]

Still would like to play some ganons. Gonna be home all day starting now.

 

[adom4]

Still would like to play some ganons. Gonna be home all day starting now.

If you're still up i can play a few rounds.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Emblem Lord and I played a bunch of games. He won the majority, but most of them were pretty close.

The best tools for edgeguarding Marth as Ganon are generally speaking N-air and U-air. It's very difficult to land anything else on a competent Marth offstage if he uses counter correctly, but usually a tipman U-air or 2nd hit of N-air are adequate and both can be viably used directly against Marth's Up-B.

Before EL beats me to saying this, this is just general advice. If Ganondorf grabs you by the edge, you have to be really careful which way you DI, because if you DI towards him when he does D-throw, this can combo into F-air for a legitimate KO confirm. Also EL caught me a good number of times with footstools to counter some of my really low recoveries.

I think the main new thing I got from our games is that at least the way I play, Ganondorf does better on larger stages in this matchup. Marth's faster moves in closer range especially D-tilt and Dancing Blade gives him better control on smaller stages like Battlefield and Halberd imo. With larger stages you have more space to set up pressure with moves like DA and Wizkick.

Also while Drop Kick can save Ganondorf from gimps, default Wizkick I believe is better for getting out of juggle situations in this matchup and also is slightly more threatening in midrange against things like Marth's D-tilt spacing. Drop Kick sometimes works slightly better as an anti-air. Overall I believe both variants are about equally viable in this matchup for different reasons.

Otherwise most of what I said earlier I believe applies. Marth's fullhop spacing game is where he shines in neutral against Ganon as it takes more reads for Ganondorf to contest it, and while his D-tilt pressure is good, Ganondorf overall is a bigger threat in midrange than Marth on the ground.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thanks for the games. I learned alot. Yeah Ganon's reward is a huge factor in the match. Playing at the same range means vying for the same space is dangerous. Whatever one does to space for themselves, they do so for their opponent as well. I would give it to Ganon if not for 2 things. Marth's fullhop game allows him to apply pressure that's safe and establish control which is very important. This forces Ganon to guess, which can put him in a bad spot if the guess doesn't pay off or Marth reads him in return. The second thing is the tipper mechanic. Again playing for the same space puts Ganon in danger past 100%. There were several instances where a whiffed d-tilt or f-tilt was met with the tip of the Falchion for a KO. I don't think it's in Ganons best interest to hit buttons unless he knows it will hit.

 

[Random4811]

I'd say its about even, with slight advantages in certain directions depending on the area of play (ground game, air game, etc.)

We are a little safer with our full hops, and our dtilt is pretty safe too. I need to test it, but Ganon may be heavy enough that sour spot nair from Marth at low percents leads to a follow up, which can be dangerous for him. Off-stage play definately goes to Marth, we have an easier time edgeguarding with our quick bair if you're low, our wide fair if you're high- stage spiking either of these, or our lightning fast up-b shoryuken. Plus you have the chance to be countered on your attack, which could mean a kill off ledge, especially with some of your stronger attacks. Our Dsmash is pretty quick for roll punishing, and our DB is pretty good in this MU because of Ganons heavy-ness leading to him being stuck in it a little longer than some characters.

 

[KenMeister]

Thanks for the games. I learned alot. Yeah Ganon's reward is a huge factor in the match. Playing at the same range means vying for the same space is dangerous. Whatever one does to space for themselves, they do so for their opponent as well. I would give it to Ganon if not for 2 things. Marth's fullhop game allows him to apply pressure that's safe and establish control which is very important. This forces Ganon to guess, which can put him in a bad spot if the guess doesn't pay off or Marth reads him in return. The second thing is the tipper mechanic. Again playing for the same space puts Ganon in danger past 100%. There were several instances where a whiffed d-tilt or f-tilt was met with the tip of the Falchion for a KO. I don't think it's in Ganons best interest to hit buttons unless he knows it will hit.

So in other words, if Marth didn't have a tipper to apply pressure, the matchup would sway in Ganon's favor then? Looks like I already know how Lucina's MU against Ganon looks then...

 

[Random4811]

So in other words, if Marth didn't have a tipper to apply pressure, the matchup would sway in Ganon's favor then? Looks like I already know how Lucina's MU against Ganon looks then...

You should already know how that looks.
Can you shield? Yes? Lucina loses.

 

[Xinc]

As a person who plays both Marth and Ganon, I'm not sure which side is more adept. I'm willing to say it's equal. Ganon has the tools to get in Marth, and he doesn't die as easily to any non-tipped hits. His down tilt and forward tilt reach pretty far and are good for Poking, but so can Marth. Overall, Marth has better mobility, but has more difficulty in killing, but Ganondorf is the opposite.

What Marth has over Ganon is the reward for keeping him at Tipper's reach.

Just my take on it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

omg @ Xinc we should run marth vs ganon. You live close bro.

 

[adamlon1]

I think the Marth vs Ganon match up is quite even with both Ganon and Marth having tools to counter each other but I would think that it would be like the Captain Falcon match up in which Marth controls the neutral game quite well but one mistake can even teh stocks but this time I doubt it would mean death and Marth can get back the lead easier due to the slow nature of ganon so it would be easier for marth to retain his lead and even if Ganon gets the lead marth can get one combo and Marth is in the lead. I would think this matchup would be 55-45 in marth's favor

 

[Emblem Lord]

There is simply no way this match can be Marth's favor 60/40.

 

[A2ZOMG]

omg @ Xinc we should run marth vs ganon. You live close bro.

Right now he's in my area. Awesome dude, would want to hang out with him again. I beat him in the majority of games we played IRL, (though he got me good with his Falcon) but he's picked up some useful Ganon tech from me.

 

[Xinc]

omg @ Xinc we should run marth vs ganon. You live close bro.

Not for a few months. I just went to LA a few weeks ago for my program

 

[adamlon1]

There is simply no way this match can be Marth's favor 60/40.

What about 55-45

 

[Langston777]

how does one go about gimping ganon offstage

i've been uair'd to my death quite a few times, is there anything else to watch out for? his recovery SEEMS pretty free if you get him off stage and don't put yourself in the way of a ganoncide.

 

[adamlon1]

how does one go about gimping ganon offstage

i've been uair'd to my death quite a few times, is there anything else to watch out for? his recovery SEEMS pretty free if you get him off stage and don't put yourself in the way of a ganoncide.

If he is going for a U air don't be afraid to Counter but if you are in a situation where ganon can use a side B use an airdodge or if you have your double jump you might want to jump away from the GANONCIDE but that is what works for me try and play some Ganons and see what you can do

 

[HeavyLobster]

So in other words, if Marth didn't have a tipper to apply pressure, the matchup would sway in Ganon's favor then? Looks like I already know how Lucina's MU against Ganon looks then...

From the Ganon side of the matchup, I'd say this seems about right. For most matchups, Marth and Lucina's MU ratios are more or less the same, but reward is a significant issue for Lucina here, while it isn't for Marth, partially because of how easy it is to space against a character as slow as Ganon. I'd say the MU is 50-50 vs. Marth, and 45-55 Ganon's favor for Lucina. Marthcina doesn't have anything too problematic for Ganon except edgeguarding, and Ganon gets really good reward against them without too much trouble getting in. Marth's tippers are really scary, though, and force Ganon to respect Marth as much as Marth must respect Ganon.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys, great discussion on this match-up! Thanks Ganondorf mains for taking the time to give us your input. This discussion period we focus on the ROB match-up. Let's get started!

 

[Freelance Spy]

and landing Dair is really hard against a smart Ganon. We also have decent juggle game agianst you with D-tilt and D-throw setting it up so we can rack damage up very quickly and kill very fast as well, once we get in.

Edit: Damm I got beaten by A2 and Jmac, they already posted their ratios. Ah well..

Because of ganon's Uair?

We should do as the Zelda boards and take over every other puny boards.

Hey did you storm the Zelda boards already? I gotta know that mu....

 

[Freelance Spy]

Very sorry, accident double post...

 

[the king of murder]

Because of ganon's Uair?

Hey did you storm the Zelda boards already? I gotta know that mu....

Well yeah, Uair is one of the reasons as it can also turn the tides if it hits plus it's fast(comes out in frame 6). Ganon also has side b and if Marth misses his Dair...GG. Marth's Dair in general is really hard to land against low recovering opponents but the threat of dair alone can allow for some mind games(baiting an airdodge against high recoveries, or baiting an attack before Dair only to counter it). Also, Ken combo. Marth's Dair is not reliable when Marth has better options offstage but it has to be accounted for.

I never tried to raid the Zelda boards lol, if you want to know the MU you can ask the Zelda mains themselves and I am sure they will help you

 

[PowerHungryFool]

Here to lend a hand with the ROB MU. I gotta say this is definitely in ROB's favor. ROB's zoning tools can camp Marth for days, and Marth sits at a combo-able weight. Marth is also susceptible to fair and gyro gimps. Marth can juggle ROB fairly well with Uairs and Utilts, and he has superior melee range. Overall I'd say the MU is 70:30 in ROB's favor.

 

[adamlon1]

When it comes to the ROB matchup I personally think that this matchup is in ROB's favor because of his projectile game and his campy playstyle it will be very hard for Marth to get in not only that but with Marth's weight it can be quite easy for people to combo him including ROB but if Marth can get in he can juggle ROB with up tilt and Up air, Marth does have superior melee range over ROB and Marth can kill ROB fairly early with a tipper F smash if given the chance. I would say that this matchup is 65-35 in ROB's favor due to ROB's campy playstyle and his projectiles.

 

[Langston777]

i think you guys are giving ROB a little too much credit. ROB struggles with characters that can run circles around him, on top of that Marth still has a fraction of his old spacing game in smash 4, so he won't be running straight into any of ROB's kill moves. 6/4 at the worst in ROB's favor, but I wouldn't say anything higher.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

i think you guys are giving ROB a little too much credit. ROB struggles with characters that can run circles around him, on top of that Marth still has a fraction of his old spacing game in smash 4, so he won't be running straight into any of ROB's kill moves. 6/4 at the worst in ROB's favor, but I wouldn't say anything higher.

Well Marth can't exactly run circles around ROB since it can be difficult to even get near him at times. Marth is not the best at dealing with projectiles and ROB is fairly heavy along with a recovery he can fake you out with can make things tricky for him. I have less trouble with his kill moves and more trouble with getting shot of stage by his laser and him edgeguarding me with the gyro. I also think it is 65-35 in ROB's favor. Hey look at that! I was able to help out with the discussion!

 

[Random4811]

I wrote something super cool up, but I think it is lost at sea.. Oh well. I'll edit this later when Im feeling it again and add my write up to it.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys, thanks for the discussion but we will need to come back to this match-up at a later date. Not a lot was mentioned on ROB's grab game and the traps he can create with his gyro etc. This discussion period, we will focus on the Rosalina and Luma match-up. Let's get started!