Marth Match-Up Discussion (Update: ZSS!)

[warionumbah2]

How come they're the easiest? :0

Also,I think better ground game goes to falcon,approach wise.

I don't know its something to do with their weight or something. Down throw to Knee is actually not so reliable since people jump out of it, but for some reason Marth and Lucina are still in hit stun. 40-80% is where its available, you can avoid it by DI'ing away from Falcon but all Falcon players down throw instantly(to keep the momentum) so you have no chance to Di effectively. Some do a pivot grab making you accidentally Di towards them.

 

[roymustang1990-]

I don't know its something to do with their weight or something. Down throw to Knee is actually not so reliable since people jump out of it, but for some reason Marth and Lucina are still in hit stun. 40-80% is where its available.

Yeah that's true,from memory,I almost always get caught more in falcons u air follow ups after he d throws me rather than his fair, unless I air dodge or jump away in time. I just didn't know we were excluding air dodging when discussing stuff like this. :/


"but all Falcon players down throw instantly(to keep the momentum) so you have no chance to Di effectively. Some do a pivot grab making you accidentally Di towards them."

This is actually pretty clever,the thought of it never hit my mind until now.Wow 0-0

 

[Latias]

Falcons upair can juggle marth pretty easily, marth can throw out a counter to stop the juggle. Down throw > knee is actually easy to pull off on marth since hes still in hit stun. The only thing marth really has on falcon is gimping, I'd say its 55:45 falcons favor.

 

[Novaseer]

I've had the most luck against Falcons by being more patient than them, especially if I have the lead. Waiting in crouch and using d-tilt beats Falcon's dash options and makes them whiff short hop aerials if they're not careful.

The biggest problem I have against Falcon is landing. I faced one with impeccable dash grab timing that had his hands on me as soon as my feet touched the ground. It didn't matter if I covered my descent with N-air or empty landed into jab, he'd always get me during those few frames where I can't do anything. I had to give up doing full hop F-airs because of this. Any advice? I'll try dancing blade next since its multiple hitboxes seamlessly transition from air to ground without an opening. That might force Falcon to at least make a 50/50 guess between dash grab or shield.

 

[Satan-]

The biggest problem I have against Falcon is landing. I faced one with impeccable dash grab timing that had his hands on me as soon as my feet touched the ground. It didn't matter if I covered my descent with N-air or empty landed into jab, he'd always get me. I had to give up doing full hop F-airs because of this. Any advice?

Go off stage and grab the edge. Sometimes it's safer than landing on stage.

As for the Falcon MU, I would say I have a decent amount of experience in it. My cousin plays Falcon (he's decent) and I've played some local Falcons here in Toronto.

I would say the MU is 55-45 or 60-40 our favor.

Let's start by discussing the neutral. The neutral game honestly isn't that bad for us. Falcon has a hard time getting in while you can short hop retreating fairs to pressure and retreat. If Falcon is dashing at you, they will usually go for a dash grab, dash attack, or shield roll. Dtilt or jab beat grab, clank with dash attack and have low enough recovery frames to not get punished by dash roll. You have to be careful though, because Falcon's dash grab is exceptionally fast and timing is key. If Falcon decides to jump and aprouch, utilt will stuff him out. You can also play the neutral somewhat aggressively, keeping Falcon at tipper range and pressuring him closer to the edge. He has a very hard time getting past dtilt and spaced fairs. Most will resort to rolling out when feeling too pressured. If you can read the roll, it's simple to punish.

Though I've been talking about the neutral from Marth's perspective, I do have some experience on the opposite side too. I know I said dtilt beats out most of Falcon's options from Dash but it's tricky to get the timing right. As Falcon, I like to dash, jump back, dash, jump back a couple of times just to keep my opponent guessing when I will approach. This baits some less proficient Marth's to throw out attacks such as Fsmash which can be punished. Also, I like to use the pseudo dash dancing to keep Marth's guessing when I will approach and vary up my timing. This leads to a higher success rate when I do decide to actually dash in for a grab or dash attack.

All in all, I would say the neutral is fairly even. Now, let's talk about the punish game.

Falcon punishes Marth hard. Most if his hit confirms and his grab lead to his uair juggles which can rack on a lot of percent. Marth has a hard time landing so I would suggest trying to land on stage once to see how good the Falcon is at juggling and if he's good at it, then go for off stage edge grabs. MAKE SURE YOU DON'T LOSE YOUR JUMP IN HIS UAIR JUGGLES. Despite his hard punishes, Falcon has a surprisingly difficult time killing Marth. This is his downfall in the MU. His best killing move is his bair. It's fast, and reliable but gets stuffed out by Marth's fair, ftilt (if you're on the ground), or can be countered if you're feeling bold. His bair can't be combo'd into and is often telegraphed when he's about to do it. His other kill options are laggy and easy to punish. Knee is unreliable. Falcon can dthrow → knee or Nair → knee but these work at lower percents and if you're not right on the edge of the stage or have horrible DI, you should survive. Falcon's knee combos stop working pretty early in percent or when he's built up enough rage. Here's a tip for you Marth mains. Most Falcons will go for the knee even when it's not a true combo. Once you learn the percents at when knee stops working, you can DI poorly on purpose to bait the Falcon and counter the knee. This will kill Falcon at around 80-90%. As for the other kill moves, raptor boost is laggy on shield and very easy to punish. Just be wary of it at all times. Falcon's back throw can also kill if you're near the edge. This only works at higher percents (150+) but it's something to note. Falcon's Fsmash is laggy and easy to punish but you have to be very cautious of its range. Some Falcons like throwing it out when you're getting up from the edge, if that happens, just wait or counter. Falcons other smashes aren't reliable kill moves and are laggy. One thing to note is that uair can kill at high percents (160ish). Don't let the damage build up too fast.

Marth doesn't punish Falcon all that hard but honestly, it doesn't matter. You should only have one goal as a Marth main and that is to get Falcon off stage. Luckily, Marth is well equipped to do just that. At low percents, dthrow → bair is a reliable combo and sends Falcon a decent distance towards the edge. It can also be followed up by fair or fast fall uair most of the time. At zero, fthrow → fair isn't bad either and fair can be linked into other fairs. You can also start juggling Falcon with dthrow → uairs and set ground traps to build up percent and make it easier to throw him off stage. Once Falcon is off stage, it is a very simple edge guard. Just swat him away and hold the ledge, then follow his movement. If he decides to go low, drop down and bair. If he goes high, get off the ledge, jump and bair. Rinse and repeat until he's dead. Sometimes the Falcon will try to recover high so you can't edge guard him. Usually he'll do a Raptor boost or very high Falcon Dive. Don't fret though, both of these moves are easy to punish. Get off the edge early when you see him recover high so you can maximize the time you have to punish. You don't want to start dashing and chasing him, that's how you miss punishes. Once you're in place to punish, don't just go for Fsmash as that's not your goal. Remember, you want to get him back off the stage. If you're proficient at doing it, you can run pass, turn around, tipper fsmash to get him off the stage. If you haven't practiced this enough though, there are other options. Grab works but you don't get Falcon that far off stage and he can easily recover before you have a chance to set up a solid edge guard, so don't go for grabs unless the Falcon is at high percent. What I like to do (if I'm not running past → Fsmash) is run past and dancing blade (DB). DB is a fairly good punish, dealing more damage than just a grab, and DB forward 4 has more knock back and at lower percents, it's easy to link all four hits. Basically, at higher percents grab and at lower percents, DB to get the Falcon off stage. Also if possible, when Falcon is recovering, don't throw out attacks until Falcon does a Falcon Dive . This will prevent the Falcon from air dodging through your attacks and recovering.

So all in all, I'll repeat that I think this MU is 55-45 or 60-40 Marth's favor. The neutral game is pretty even. Falcon punishes Marth hard but can sometimes have trouble landing the finishing blow. Marth on the other hand, has an easy time gimping Falcon. All of this came from my experience playing and playing against both characters so feel free to correct me if I am wrong about anything or add to my arguments.

 

[Shaya]

Design wise Marth wins, but numbers wise I don't know at the moment.

I haven't been down thrown to knee at any point in this game thus far. Down throw uair is very good though.

 

[Satan-]

Design wise Marth wins, but numbers wise I don't know at the moment.

I haven't been down thrown to knee at any point in this game thus far. Down throw uair is very good though.

Down throw to knee isn't easy to pull off. I would assume you're at least decent at this game in which case you probably DI out of Dthrow to knee without realizing it. Even I've only been Dthrown to kneed very few times out of the countless sets with my cousin and those usually come after pivot grabs to immediate throws so I couldn't DI.

 

[HFlash]

Disjointed hitboxes hurt Falcon. If Marth just plays defensively, he can just throw out spaced fairs and ftilts until Falcon commits to something dumb. Obviously Falcon when he gets in, he gets in hard, and because Marth is such a big target, he is easier to combo on compared to the shorter array of the cast. Overall pretty even, 60/40 or 55/45 in Marth's favor

 

[Latias]

Falcon punishes Marth hard. Most if his hit confirms and his grab lead to his uair juggles which can rack on a lot of percent. Marth has a hard time landing so I would suggest trying to land on stage once to see how good the Falcon is at juggling and if he's good at it, then go for off stage edge grabs. MAKE SURE YOU DON'T LOSE YOUR JUMP IN HIS UAIR JUGGLES. Despite his hard punishes, Falcon has a surprisingly difficult time killing Marth. This is his downfall in the MU. His best killing move is his bair. It's fast, and reliable but gets stuffed out by Marth's fair, ftilt (if you're on the ground), or can be countered if you're feeling bold. His bair can't be combo'd into and is often telegraphed when he's about to do it. His other kill options are laggy and easy to punish. Knee is unreliable. Falcon can dthrow → knee or Nair → knee but these work at lower percents and if you're not right on the edge of the stage or have horrible DI, you should survive. Falcon's knee combos stop working pretty early in percent or when he's built up enough rage. Here's a tip for you Marth mains. Most Falcons will go for the knee even when it's not a true combo. Once you learn the percents at when knee stops working, you can DI poorly on purpose to bait the Falcon and counter the knee. This will kill Falcon at around 80-90%. As for the other kill moves, raptor boost is laggy on shield and very easy to punish. Just be wary of it at all times. Falcon's back throw can also kill if you're near the edge. This only works at higher percents (150+) but it's something to note. Falcon's Fsmash is laggy and easy to punish but you have to be very cautious of its range. Some Falcons like throwing it out when you're getting up from the edge, if that happens, just wait or counter. Falcons other smashes aren't reliable kill moves and are laggy. One thing to note is that uair can kill at high percents (160ish). Don't let the damage build up too fast.
.

Falcons down smash and up smash are actually pretty good kill moves, up smash kills marth at around 120% and back hit of down smash does too.

 

[Satan-]

Falcons down smash and up smash are actually pretty good kill moves, up smash kills marth at around 120% and back hit of down smash does too.

I know, but down smash is very unreliable. Up smash depends on Falcon's rage. It can kill as early as 120 or as late as the mid 140s, assuming the Marth has good DI, which he should.

 

[kj22]

In relation to the Falcon match up, I'd say at the moment it would be fair to put as 50:50. I've had pretty good results against every Falcon I've played here thus far.
It's incredibly easy for us to gimp him. He doesn't seem to have intangible limbs with most of his moves so general spacing + reactive attacks are quite reliable.
All falcon has to get in on Marth is dash grab, playing in and around the corners of stages subsides this a lot and also gels well with us gimping him with back air without even thinking about it.

he also doesn't have grab armor (easier to hit out of upb)

 

[Locuan]

Hey everyone! I would like to thank you all for the C. Falcon discussion that had plenty of activity! On another note, the discussion period for has begun. Let's see what this angel can do against our blades!

 

[Zano]

since Dark Pit is generally the same MU, I'll put my info out based on that.

Pit's whole gameplan revolves around getting a grab and following up off that, your goal in this MU is to not get grabbed. If he gets you at 0, you're taking around 21-23%, and he has guaranteed followups after grab til fairly good percents, but he can't get any kill moves off one. He can however kill with fthrow if you're near the ledge, so if you're at high % stay the **** away from the ledge because he will fish for a grab/pivot grab to throw you into oblivion.

all in all tho, it's not really a bad MU because you have to tools to wall him out, but arrows can force you to approach, whether it's pit or dark pits, both serve the same job in this MU.

Moves to watch out for onstage are Fair (can autocancel on whiff so he might bait a punish attempt with that), nair (it can shield poke and is one of his best OoS options), fsmash (if he catches you with it you can die super early, but it's also really punishable so he won't be throwing it out if it risks death for him)

Offstage he WILL go after you, so you need to watch out for fair and not airdodge too early or you probably just got gimped. I believe Marth's fair can beat out his so you can try swinging at him if he comes at you, but if he reads it then he's just going to use one of his jumps to get above you and dair you instead. I don't think he has any orbitar gimmicks on you unless you don't sweet spot the ledge like he can do to little mac, but I haven't really tested that stuff out.

I'd probably give this MU a 60/40 in Pit/Dark Pit's favor, the differences they have don't really affect this MU for it to be a different ratio.

 

[roymustang1990-]

Pit can force us to approach with his projectile. He can cover his ground approach with side b,buts it's unsafe on block.None of his disjoints reach longer than marth I think. He's not the easiest character to gimp,because he can mix up his recovery options. I'd say the pit match up is 55/45 ,in Marth's favor.

 

[Zano]

no pit will EVER be approaching you with side b LOL. he will be using it to recover, or to punish you for a kill, which doesn't even kill that early outside of rage.

You will never gimp a pit solely because of the super armor on side b if they time it right, but it is very possible to get a spike if he recovers low.

 

[roymustang1990-]

Ah okay,I haven't fought enough pits to give better sufficient knowledge,thanks for clarifying. ^^

 

[TKD]

I don't think dthrow to knee is a true combo ever; but I may be wrong. If the opponent airdodges out of hitstun without at least an airjump, they risk receiving an easy fair, though. I don't think it needs to be specified that Falcon wins the neutral since that goes for almost the whole cast. You've gotta respect Falcon a lot in neutral, and go crazy on offense/edgeguard.

I've never played against a good Marth (and I'm not sure I ever will as things are going) but I'd vote "even match-up" for those 2.

 

[warionumbah2]

I don't think dthrow to knee is a true combo ever; but I may be wrong.

The timing is strict and it works for certain characters on very very strict percentage. Some characters can act out of the hit stun faster, its really easy to do offline and even online is a perfect kill move since Falcon slides after his grab and you're near the blast zones after he throws you. Problem with FG is that sometimes the match hiccups before you get the necessary dash before the jump --> knee. Bowser for example can jump away or air dodge since he gets out of hitstun faster(is hitstun determined by weight?), Jiggly is too floaty , Mario,Diddy,Sonic,Sheik,Marth,Lucina,ZSS,Lucario,Dr Mario,Luigi(damn the list is long but you get it) stay in hitstun way too long.

If you're really slick you can down throw --> uair --> knee which is also a combo.

 

[TKD]

The timing is strict and it works for certain characters on very very strict percentage. Some characters can act out of the hit stun faster, its really easy to do offline and even online is a perfect kill move since Falcon slides after his grab and you're near the blast zones after he throws you. Problem with FG is that sometimes the match hiccups before you get the necessary dash before the jump --> knee. Bowser for example can jump away or air dodge since he gets out of hitstun faster(is hitstun determined by weight?), Jiggly is too floaty , Mario,Diddy,Sonic,Sheik,Marth,Lucina,ZSS,Lucario,Dr Mario,Luigi(damn the list is long but you get it) stay in hitstun way too long.

If you're really slick you can down throw --> uair --> knee which is also a combo.

I don't think this discussion is about online matches.

Hitstun isn't determined by weight as much as the cooldown of Falcon's dthrow is determined by the opponent's weight. It takes a while for Falcon to be able to move after dthrowing Bowser.

 

[X-ian]

Pit seems to be better in this matchup, as he has his projectiles and has his extremely good recovery options. Also, with his jumps and recovery, he usually can go for gimps without hesitation.

Ground game solely on attacks seems to go either way. Our tilt ranges are similar, but if he attempts to utilize its full range, our tippers can catch him. His jab, however, is way better. Although as a Marth player, I usually use down tilts anyway. On dash attacks, Pit's dash attack seems to recover quicker if he decides to throw it out and ends up being more reliable than ours. Then again, our SH F-airs beat some of his ground approaches and can match up most of Pit's air attempts. Then again (again), his projectiles work out this divide. Other things that can go either way are forward smashes (considering we fire it out once and he has two hits to confirm a smash; his smash can lead himself into easy punishes from shield as a result),

Now, things to do against a Pit player...

For his projectiles, a SH airdodge into F-air by Marth when approaching leads to an easy hit if they are firing and keeps you safe, but if you time it wrong, you can get caught in an arrow and be set up for more attacks. Although, I find I am able to get opponents to think twice about firing arrows by doing this.

On his recoveries, I usually go for the stage spike (falling into b-air) when he comes back up as it's a straight line, although those attempts usually end with nothing on either player either because I miss, they already hit the ledge, or they come back from the spike. Eh.

In my experience, their air attacks alone usually don't end up taking a stock from me unless it's for a setup for a ground attack. I'd say be cautious when getting closer as their smashes (almost always f-smash) usually are my killing blows, if not getting gimped after surviving. Also, sane Pits usually won't throw out side-b's as said by Zano, but that won't stop them from possibly throwing out a rogue side-b and getting you back into the air/offstage. Also said by Zano, don't get grabbed and thrown into an offstage situation as of course, gimping.

In the end, the fact Pit has superior recovery, projectiles, and several attempts to gimp (if you allow him) gives the match up to him. I don't really think of numbers when I think of match ups, but in this case I'd go 60-40 in Pit's favor because of the tools at his disposal.

Hopefully we get some more input from other users. ^^

 

[TKD]

On his recoveries, I usually go for the stage spike (falling into b-air) when he comes back up as it's a straight line, although those attempts usually end with nothing on either player either because I miss, they already hit the ledge, or they come back from the spike. Eh.

I agree that those attempts usually end with nothing; but mostly because they're very easy to tech. Pit can even save jumps to punish the attempt after teching (can you still tech downwards by holding down in this game? if not then i'm wrong about this). Marth can mix it up by landing one or two sideb1's before stage spiking with an aerial or upb, though; I think he's the best stage spiker in the game because of this.

 

[Locuan]

Alright everyone! Today we shift into the next Discussion Period. It's time to head into the Viridian Forest to capture a Let's get started!

 

[Langston777]

i see that there's a matchup thread, but that seems to be dedicated to specific characters so i figured i'd just post my request for help here. don't know if this is appropriate since i'm new. basically, i'm struggling against a few characters specifically and preform very poorly against them in any situation. was wondering if i could get some advice/spark some discussion on them, since i've only gotten the chance to speak with other marth mains very briefly a few times.

Worst:
-Olimar
-Rob

these guys love to roll away and chuck crap at me. I have a hard time punishing their rolls and defensive strategies. Olimar's incredibly short hitbox doesn't help either. I try to force the approach but i get hit by normals with fast startup or smash attacks whenever i get close, and my shield approach seems unreliable since i either mistime it, get grabbed, or get pushed away on block. Against them, i resort to air camping with kirby. it's the only reliable strategy i've found, but i'd like to win with Marth instead. Seriously, I'm extra free against these guys.

Less bad, but still bad:
-Pikachu
-Villager
-Pit

Pikachu is scary and hard to keep away. It's tough but i find ways to work around it. just saying, i think it's a bad match up, he requires a lot of work to win against, and i don't know how to react to all of pikachu's options on the ground. Every time i fight one i feel like i need to relearn the match-up.

Villager, man, what a struggle. Trying to gimp a good villager is asking to get killed yourself. Killing a villager requires a good read to land a tipper SB, fsmash or usmash if you ask me. he wracks up a ton of damage with slingshot and gyroid shenanigans, but i guess that's just how he plays. still, i find it a very challenging match up.

Pit, i have trouble landing against him and avoiding being outranged. His dsmash seems able to punish any move i throw out on block, and i have an embarrassing habit of walking into fsmash. I struggle against him a hell of a lot more with Kirby, might i add.

so yeah, if anyone has advice for these, i'd be glad to hear/discuss it.

 

[Locuan]

Hi there @ Langston777 . First of all, welcome to Smashboards! This match-up thread does have discussion periods for specific characters but we encourage discussion on any character match-up. We have covered Pit and we have offered advice against Villager and Duck Hunt. If you have any questions regarding match-ups please refer or utilize this thread.

 

[Snailtopus]

Oh man. I know we're supposed to be discussing Pikachu right now. But can we discuss ROB instead? I cannot beat ROB to save my life

 

[Locuan]

Oh man. I know we're supposed to be discussing Pikachu right now. But can we discuss ROB instead? I cannot beat ROB to save my life

You can ask away regarding any match-up. We are focused on Pikachu as our discussion, but feel free to ask questions! I will try to give my input if I know the answer.

 

[Snailtopus]

You can ask away regarding any match-up. We are focused on Pikachu as our discussion, but feel free to ask questions! I will try to give my input if I know the answer.

lol, ok then cool. How do I combat ROB's zoning and offstage game?

 

[Locuan]

lol, ok then cool. How do I combat ROB's zoning and offstage game?

I do not have much recent experience against ROB since I mostly played this match-up on the 3DS days. However, by its zoning game do you refer to its use of projectiles? To deal with those have a look at this post. ROB's laser must be either dodged (be it SH airdodge, roll, or spotdodge), while his spinning top can be dealt with as mentioned before for the laser. The top can also clash with Fair/jab etc. depending on your reaction time and the spinning tops charge.

In a more general sense, Marth/Lucina can have trouble off-stage since their recovery can be gimped fairly well by multiple characters. This is why it is important to mix up how you recover. If you always recover low then as ROB I would use Dair to meteor you. If you always recover high then I create a Fair wall to stop your recovery. You need to keep me on the edge of my seat trying to predict how you will recover. As Marth/Lucina, you can also utilize Fair/Bair/Nair to reset their approaches when you are offstage if you have the correct timing. This is something that depends on the scenario mostly. You could also utilize Dolphin Slash early if you are sure you will reach the edge from that position and if you know that your opponent wants to gimp you; this might be able to turn the situation around with a stage spike against the ROB player.

EDIT: It's time to head out into the Lylat System! We face and his trusty Arwing!

 

[roymustang1990-]

I think the fox vs marth match up is 60-40,in fox's favor mostly of his speed. One ground hit ( jab,u tilt,dash attack) will lead to us getting combo'd for easy percent. And that blaster to force us to approach. Yikes.

 

[Langston777]

Alright, unfortunately I don't have recent experience against a Fox player but I did just do a short set with a friend who mains Pikachu so here's our synopsis, albeit late.

Pikachu:
We have another matchup where Marth can't be very aggressive. Throwing out any move on approach is asking to get utilted most of the time. Not worth the risk. When Pikachu gets behind Marth, his only option is to roll the **** away from the rodent. OoS bair completely whiffs, and OoS fair whiffs if you're not directly in front of him. I don't think Marth can contest with the utilt without OoS Dolphin Slashing.

Marth can wall out most of Pikachu's approaches with autocanceled and fastfall fairs. The only thing that makes this tricky is dealing with thundershock and quick attack, and getting read by a Pikachu, eating a nasty smash attack or run up grab as result.

As for killing, good luck landing a tipper anything. Pika's fast as ****. Marth's fsmash can't outrange or punish a Pika fsmash, even with his hurtbox extended as far as i could tell. I think catching quickattack with usmash (requires a hard read) or stage spiking is the best bet, but this is very risky. I've stuffed a few approaches with a tipper ftilt too, killing as early as 90% in some cases.

So the match up is definitely in Pika's favor. The exact numbers are up for debate though. Judging from other characters we've used I'd say my friend and i are pretty close in terms of skill, and I only managed to take a few games off him out of quite a few.

I just hate MU's i gotta play defensive marth in though. not my style.

 

[Snailtopus]

Cant dancing blade be used OoS if Pikachu rolls behind?

 

[Langston777]

don't think it's faster than utilt, especially on block. utilt has unforgiving speed and range, and covers every angle of pikachu. you're better off just rolling away and repositioning your self to space pikachu out. point is you don't want to let a pikachu right next to you in any case.


just fought an okay fox player the other day. i didn't really struggle with anything. if i had to guess i'd say 5-5

 

[Absolute Zero]

Hi guys, I created this thread hoping someone could give me some pointers on how to go about taking on a Sonic who spams his B, side b and grabs. I got annihilated by a Sonic in an online tournament yesterday and the only offence i could get out was a few counters and a couple Fairs. What do I do? Please help!

 

[buttmunch236]

Well the only thing I can think of is be very patient, it sounds like he plays aggressively so you could just kind of wait for him to make the first attack and try punish. So basically a good defense is important.

 

[ynim]

Timing is super important against Sonic. I know one of my personal problems with Sonic is that though they will fall into an extremely predictable flowchart pattern on how to attack, your window to respond is relatively slim. Sonic's Side B is pretty easy to shield, but getting the attack as they pass through can be difficult sometimes, and you'll often only really get one or two attacks out of it before reset to neutral. Focus on mixing up your response to that situation and getting the optimal damage output from it and you'll be fine

 

[Locuan]

Hi guys, I created this thread hoping someone could give me some pointers on how to go about taking on a Sonic who spams his B, side b and grabs. I got annihilated by a Sonic in an online tournament yesterday and the only offence i could get out was a few counters and a couple Fairs. What do I do? Please help!

Hi @ Absolute Zero ! First of all welcome to the Marth character board! I moved your posts to the Marth Match-up Discussion thread which is pinned to the top of the character board. Please ask any Match-up related questions on this thread and others will help you out!

 

[Absolute Zero]

Hi @ Absolute Zero ! First of all welcome to the Marth character board! I moved your posts to the Marth Match-up Discussion thread which is pinned to the top of the character board. Please ask any Match-up related questions on this thread and others will help you out!

Oh thank you!

Timing is super important against Sonic. I know one of my personal problems with Sonic is that though they will fall into an extremely predictable flowchart pattern on how to attack, your window to respond is relatively slim. Sonic's Side B is pretty easy to shield, but getting the attack as they pass through can be difficult sometimes, and you'll often only really get one or two attacks out of it before reset to neutral. Focus on mixing up your response to that situation and getting the optimal damage output from it and you'll be fine

Yeah, I mean it goes without saying but he is so fast, it was driving me insane how helpless I was. No one I have faced in smash other than a single duck hunt has given me that much trouble, which I was able to beat on battlefield, but even with bf I couldn't really touch sonic

@ Locuan so would the proper way to reply to someone not be to just hit the reply button? Sorry I haven't posted in smash boards very much so I am still learning about it

 

[Locuan]

Hey @ Absolute Zero I merged your posts. Be careful with double posting since it's against the Terms of Service and Rules of Smashboards. If needed, use the edit button to add information to a previous post you have made.

On a more on topic note, we discussed the Sonic Match-up on the Lucina match-up thread. We had a lot of Sonic mains giving input. Due to the similarities between Marth/Lucina, this could probably help you out.

EDIT: Hey guys sorry for the delay! I was caught up with a tournament this weekend where I competed and commentated. The fox match-up had little discussion so we will have to come back to this match-up at a later date. This discussion period we focus on Duck Hunt! Lets get started!

 

[Diamond DHD]

Duck Hunt seems to have the advantage against Marth but if he can get through the projectiles, then Marth can go straight in and not let off. Also, Duck Hunt's recovery is awful due to how easy it is to gimp, so if Marth can get that dair or fair them off the side, then chances are it's an easy KO.

Something to note about going full offensive against Duck Hunt is that he can just use his can to just blow you and himself up and get some space and put the projectile wall back up.

 

[Spirst]

Huh? People are doing DH MUs? He only has like 6 players though.

Marth is going to want to keep DH on the edges off the stage and use his disjoints to the max to prevent DH from making his way to the center and taking stage control. Keep in mind though that DH has pretty good disjoints of his own with the aerials acting kind of like Marth's in that there's a "tipper" sweetspot for the fair and the bair though it's much less extreme. Like every other character lacking a solid projectile, Marth is going to want to keep around DH and prevent him from getting the momentum going. One thing to keep in mind is that a tipper fsmash will KO DH from the middle of FD starting at 67%. For both the gunmen and the clay pigeon, there's notable endlag which leaves an opening for a hit. If you can powershield the clay pigeon/roll and get DH before the gunmen shoots, you have a good chance of landing a KO at mid-high percents. However, this is easier said than done since a good DH is hard to close in on. Something else to keep in mind is to not try and counter the usmash if you're falling. It has 3 hitboxes and since your counter is horizontal, you won't hit DH and you'll end up taking the rest of the usmash anyway.

If you keep DH by the edges of the stage where he'll feel uncomfortable setting up, you can exploit the poor recovery with Marth's aerials. Seeing as how DH has no hitbox on his recovery aside from custom 2 (seldom used since the distance sucks), do not be afraid to go nuts on him. He can't cancel his recovery at any point so there's no harm done in harassing him offstage. Additionally, when pressuring DH, don't get TOO aggressive to the point where you mess up your spacing and fall for shield grabs. For a projectile-based character, DH has a surprisingly good grab game and can easily lay on 20+% from a single grab followup. Marth is lucky in that he has a disjointed butterknife sword that can space against DH while still applying pressure and making him uncomfortable/unable to shield grab.

That said, DH seems to have an easier time of it than Marth on the stage. Marth will almost always be forced to approach (jab breaks pigeons though) and is prone to just being out-spaced. Being a spacing character, this poses an issue to his design. Offstage, both characters have issues that plague them. While Marth's recovery isn't horrid, it's nothing amazing in itself and can be harassed by DH's cans+aerials since it has a predictable trajectory and little mix-up potential. DH has issues against being edgeguarded as well. Outside of tippers and gimps, Marth doesn't have great KO potential which is something DH lacks too. However, DH is able to circumvent this in the MU by applying a lot of % damage simply by being annoying and having good grab followups.