Shaya pretty much covered what I was going to say regarding Marth's frame data. Additionally, you guys can use the Marth Frame Data Thread [WIP] if you want to compare his moves to MK's.
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So he was nerfed in that regard after all, also MK range on DC may be smaller but its good enough and definitely viable if well timed. Also drill rush can and will spike marth although he can use counter on it, town and city is a great stage for his DC recovery to shine and lets be honest because of this and multiple jumps marth can't pressure MK off stage as hard as MK pressures Marth.Nothing of Marth's in this regard was nerfed (realistically; aerial mobility is less though)
Non-tippered f-air can true combo into another f-air (sometimes tippered) as well as Marth's damaging up-specials. I made posts about both of them.Metaknight could go low, but ive never had a problem using d cape tbh. Also, Metaknights forward b offers solid horizontal recovery. If you're Metaknight and get defeated off stage, you did something very wrong.
If you're going to keep throwing fairs out, MK can easily just run in, shield, dash grab. Marth should stay on the ground.
Im curious, what can untippered fairs follow into, since I'd think they can be punished with nair or dair?
I didn't say it was footsies alone. I said it was a combination of better footsies AND previous points made by other people advocating for Marth.@ Rewrite I disagree with you as well, 60:40 due to footsie alone baffles me is their any other reasoning behind that ratio? Just found S2H vs Tearbear match after searching through my youtube history and as predicted the match were mostly in neutral and they both looked even in that aspect.
Last game was the battle of up throws and MK lost because he wasn't under the top platform.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_3vLoHg1FM
So Marth doesn't completely decimate him on stage especially to the point where it goes 60:40 in his favor, Marth is hard to punish but so is MK its very hard to mess MK up. What i noticed in those games is that Marth is helpless when MK gets in his face since Dtilt comes out so fast, the bit that really got me is 'maybe even more' are you saying that Marth is one of MK worst MU?
Even after re reading everyones posts relating to the on stage game i still find it hard to believe that on stage alone makes the MU tip into Marths favor by 10 points. MK has the better punish game and stronger advantage state against Marth who has a poor disadvantage state his ground game is liner.I didn't say it was footsies alone. I said it was a combination of better footsies AND previous points made by other people advocating for Marth.
Well the fact that you said 60:40 then said it maybe more in his favor lead to believe that you're claiming its MK worse MU. MK struggles against Sonic and ZSS who have a high possibility to have over 60:40 mainly due to their better mobility in every aspect and strong disadvantage state which is equally as good as their advantage states.I also fail to see how saying the MU could POSSIBLY be a bit more in Marth's favour automatically means I'm claiming it's one of Meta Knight's worst MU"s. That must be one hell of a character if anything less than a 40 - 60 MU for him qualifies as his worst one.
I'm not basing the whole MU off one match but I'm giving an example, video evidence, of the footsie game not being as heavily in Marths favor as you seem to think. Video evidence is better than none and you expect me to fish for more matches between the two? Marth has little representation as well as MK(although i know more players that use him compared to Marth).Also, I don't take one tournament set as the basis for an entire match-up. The MK lost for more reasons than simply not being under the top platform.
MK doesn't have a hard time getting in because he's got good ground mobility and a Falcon like dash grab along with a ZSS like dash attack that doesn't stop on shield, characters like Kirby have difficulty getting in on Marth because he's so slow mixed with his poor range.I feel the advantage for Marth comes from the characters at their core. Marth applies steady pressure and use his immense range to wear down his opponent over time much like how a river erodes away a stone. Meta Knight closes in, deals heavy combo damage then gets out and repeats the process. The problem is Meta Knight has a very difficult time getting in.
That's a prime example of a MK going aggro for no reason, both had equal stocks and alot of time n the clock he went in and got punished after punish but even so he bought it back. Mk is meant to be a bait and punish character, he baited Marth and punished him and made him do bad decisions. One thing i found odd was the lack of Nado near the ledge to cover get up attacks,normal get up etc.In the video you linked there are very long periods of time in the match where MK has a lot of difficulty and struggles to connect to even a hit. The longest drought was in the final match at the beginning where MK took almost 75% applying barely any damage at all to Marth. Even then in that same match, almost every time Meta Knight scores a combo is when the Marth makes really bad decisions and throws out raw up-smashes and other really unsafe moves ( It looked like he was starting to get greedy for kills with his advantage).
60:40 is a bad MU imo , then you said it might be more which makes it even worse. Closest i got from another member is that Marth wins 55:45 but he only spoke about MK's specials such as Drill Rush being used on stage.No one's saying Meta Knight has a really bad match-up, but I'd say the ball's in Marth's court here.
This is news to me, I've only played Brawl like 3 times ever since 2008 so I am completely unfamiliar with it and any remnants of its meta game in Smash 4. If MK could go for a d-cape but you're close enough to intercept it, why wouldn't he use shuttle loop instead?Dimension Cape is vulnerable before grabbing the ledge, has a lot of start up; I know exactly how far you have to be to be able to use that move and there's nothing stopping me setting a pit stop before it. Drill Rush loses to every attack we throw out and relying on stage spiking outside of the guaranteed multihit (fair/bair)/footstool techs doesn't really change the match up.
Marth pressuring MK off stage is something you guys are going to have to live with. It's a reality that hasn't changed between games (less aerial mobility sure, but longer range on every single one of those aerials too). Don't deny it because we're in an early stages where experience is mostly with low to mid level game play (especially on Marth's part; who's honestly bothering to do better with him?).
i think youre overestimating the quality of marth's aerials... yeah they outrange her but all are pretty laggy exceptfor Uair and Nair, and mainly they all do pretty terrible damageSo as you can see, while Jiggs has her own advantages, Marth can keep her out due to the fact that he's one of the three characters with better aerials than Jiggs, and if you shut out Jiggs aerials, you've shut out Jiggs, basically. FAir is key here, use it intelligently, and DON'T just throw out a laggier attack like FSmash if you think the Jiggs is approaching, unless you're VERY confident. Jiggs thrives on weaving in and out, baiting the opponent into an attack that gives her the opportunity to punish with an aerial or rest for the KO. Jiggs is good at two things; zoning and punishing, two things you Marth mains are very familiar with, just with more range and less mobility. Beat her at her own game, play patiently, and stay rigid on playing it safe. Risky won't pay off against experienced Jigglypuff mains, and will generally get you killed.
I'd hardly say they do terrible damage (weakest possible amount is 7%, which isn't awful), nor would I say they're laggy. Are they fastest aerials in the world? No, but neither are Jiggs' aerials, and unlike Jiggs Marth's entire aerial toolkit is great. Even without FAir, Marth outreaches Jiggs in pretty much every move, so I still give it the same score. If Jiggs tries to challenge Marth's air presence she will lose, and if she tries to challenge his ground game she'll DEFINITELY lose. The only case where Jiggs aerials are far superior is offstage, as they're very good for pressure and Marth can have trouble recovering if he throws out an aerial to challenge Jiggs.i think youre overestimating the quality of marth's aerials... yeah they outrange her but all are pretty laggy exceptfor Uair and Nair, and mainly they all do pretty terrible damage
lol yeah, you didn't see the title or the recent posts until now? I guess you can still talk about it, but don't expect everyone to continue the discussion.What wait wait... Are we supposed to be discussing the Meta Knight matchup now?
I think we've talked enough about jigglypuff.lol yeah, you didn't see the title or the recent posts until now? I guess you can still talk about it, but don't expect everyone to continue the discussion.
I barely ever face Metaknight, but my friend recently picked him up and I hope to learn more about the MU from him. You don't HAVE to discuss this MU if you don't want to. I have only participated in maybe 2-3 of the MU discussions since I did not really know much about most of the ones we have done so far. For the ones I did not participate in I just looked at what people were saying about the MU.I think we've talked enough about jigglypuff.
Meta Knight seems like a good idea
OK... I don't know much about meta Knight in this game... But he's still fast and I think he's got slightly less range than Marth. Can someone confirm that?
While I discourage the usage of For Glory to determine matchups and tier lists (just look at EventHubs) one can understand some of the options that character has and get a general idea of the character from playing against said character in For Glory. I've played ~1700 matches in For Glory and I can say Meta Knight nor Marth have a significant advantage over the other. That I'm 100% sure of. It's gonna be at MOST 5.5 or 6 one way or the otherI barely ever face Metaknight, but my friend recently picked him up and I hope to learn more about the MU from him.
IMO we need to re-discuss the Diddy MU. I think its not nearly as bad as we made it out to be looking into it again. Hell, I even feel confident against Diddy. He can't challenge us off stage at all. Diddy can't contest our Uair from above, and our frame traps are pretty good in the MU. Diddy's hoo hah can easily be DI'd out of to the point that its not even really scary. Monkey flip is super punishable unless Diddy gets a good read. He basically needs to recover at or just below the ledge. If he recovers high, its a free punish. Monkey flip to the ledge is hard to punish, but his jetpack is a free gimp to any Marth that sees his recovery coming. We out space Diddy and can lock him out of our guard with well placed fairs, nairs and bairs. Dthrow -> bair works particularly well against Diddy because of his size & weight imo.Imo he has harder matchups against the other top characters. Diddy is Diddy, so we all know how hard he hits and how fast he is. Marth himself struggles in the matchup but not to a point where it is unwinnable. Having the Falchion is a huge, huge help when for example, one is getting rid of bananas. Monkey Flip can be swatted away with a simple Jab, Tilt, or even an averagely spaced aerial. We can also contest Diddy's stupid aerials well unlike many other characters. When he fishes for grabs he needs to be aware of our % as Upthrow can kill. However, once he's in advantage we have a considerably hard time reseting to neutral, and catching up in % can be a drag too if the Diddy plays lame; he can be much more careless than Marth. Myself, I'd rather play against a good Diddy than a good ZSS or Sonic though - those two matchups are particularly slanted towards their favor.
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On the Meta Knight matchup, I'm going to share the sentiments that have been expressed here and say an even matchup, but very close to a 55:45 on Meta Knight's favor. This is basically the Brawl matchup but less intricate as an effect of MK's and Marth's general adjustment [nerfs]. MK's wonky hitboxes are no longer a problem, but his edgeguarding, ability to return onstage while avoiding gimps, and general kill potential remains. I don't exactly agree with Marth having a superior ground game to the point it invalidates Meta Knight's, but Dash Grab and Dash Attack are the only two things we really need to keep an eye out and constantly play around of - this doesn't exactly mean it's easy either. For the rest of his kit, the Falchion usually does the job for us. If he gets in, we pray to the DI gods we don't die. Otherwise, the matchup boils down purely to player skill.
I'd have to disagree with this. Bike recovery is generally pretty gimpable if Marth is anywhere near the ledge, and your Up B is very linear and (as far as I know) lacking of super armor frames. This means it is possible to stage spike on a read.I've never had a hard time playing against Marth's with Wario. I feel as though its in Wario's favor. I've always found it easy to counter aerial approaches with Wario's maneuverability and his fair, I just always seem to trade well / stuff cleanly against Marth. Marth has a hard time edge-guarding Wario with his highly vertical recovery thanks to the bike. Bite mix-ups are especially potent I think in this match-up due to Marth's nature of wanting to act OOS and using counter.
I would personally give this to Marth but not by a huge amount, Mario's short range gives Marth a small advantage on the ground and the buffs to counter + shield breaker only make it harder for Mario to get up close, not to mention his far superior off ledge game and recovery, also due to Mario's light weight Marth gains a kill move with his up throw. Not to mention Marth's prowess when in rage. the last thing i see in his favor is the speed of dolphin slash which makes F.L.U.D.D near useless.It's Mario time! Let's get started everyone!
Shield when he approaches, because this blocks him out once you've got him in an unfavorable position due to shieldstun, jump (while still holding shield button mind you, you dont want to drop your shield before you jump) and then immediately input an aerial or special that will reach him. Its the easiest way to punish Sonic.Hey Guys, I am a new member, how are you all doing? I know this is not on schedule yet, but do you have any tips to deal with Sonic? He keeps spanning down B and side B and I am having trouble to punish accordingly.
Shielding is an option but it doesn't put Sonic in a bad/unfavorable position. The spin will slow down but still go through, usually with enough speed to even come back again.Shield when he approaches, because this blocks him out once you've got him in an unfavorable position due to shieldstun, jump (while still holding shield button mind you, you dont want to drop your shield before you jump) and then immediately input an aerial or special that will reach him. Its the easiest way to punish Sonic.