Marth Match-Up Discussion (Update: ZSS!)

[Artur Bento Botarelli]

Still I would try the following:
(I'd have to test this because I don't know the damages)
- You could try DownTilt to clash and stop the spins.
- Can he Counter it?
- Marth has a good hopping game so you can play with that and try to land a well timed aerial.

I feel stupid for not trying down tilt. I suppose I still have a long way to go. I was relying on SH aerials, but they are hard to time correctly against Sonic (at least at my skill level) since he seems to go wherever he pleases on Stage. I will mix up both suggestions and try again.

About counter: Marth can counter both moves easily, but it won´t hit because that wretched blue ball still goes right through you. Pretty frustrating! haha

 

[Random4811]

Dsmash would be a good option too if he doesnt read the dtilt/smash and do a spinball hop
SB pokes through spindash.
Counter can work, but it depends on what state the spindash is in. If its still going strong, then it'll go right on past you. If its not, then you might get the hit. With customs, Iai counter works pretty well.
Dash assult and Crescent slash are good for punishing Sonic too

 

[Galaxian]

Is it a little late for Mario?

If I recall I really haven't faced any Marths as Mario (I usually go Pac, if you want me to go into detail on Marth/Pac) but I can guess on the MU. I've played a bit of Marth here and there, he's fun. If I wasn't so awful with him nor was he so...ehh, I'd probably secondary him.

Marth is great at spacing, or at least keeping range - Mario's range is pretty short, and awful at times. However, once Mario gets in Marth's face it can be a little tricky for the Hero King, as while he can break out of chains Mario combos into very high percentages. Mario can break out of Marth's chains, how little they be, with Nair at his disposal. This isn't saying Mario has a clear advantage, though. Marth can still put the work on him if Mario slips up - a whiff is a free Fsmash or similar for Marth.

Mario can also out-space Marth with Fireball, though this really doesn't do much. And if Marth recovers just a little too high, which is likely due to his recovery? That's a free FLUDD gimp, or a punish with a Smash. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but it really does seem a bit in Mario's favor, due to his faster moves, better chains, and damage potential. It could be a tad in his favor, however, as Marth does have the advantage of tipper, spacing, etc. All in all it truly boils down to player skill, though Mario has a bit of an edge, as his moves are a bit faster than Marth's. If a good Mario plays well with spacing and shields, Marth can't do much, it seems, but it isn't a complete loss.

55/60:40/45 Why the different MU ranks? Because it's really in the eye of the beholder, aaaand I can't decide. Mario clearly has an advantage, I can't tell how large though, but it doesn't seem like Marth suffers too much in this MU. Still though, it could be tricky for the Marth player - but again, I truly believe it boils down to player skill. If Mario shields and protects his range well enough, then it's for Mario. If Marth can get in and land tippers, it's for Marth. Marth has harder time spacing someone like Mario, though. Especially with FLUDD.

I've never written "Mar" so much.

 

[Xisin]

Edit: weighing on Sonic. This match up plays heavily on bait and punish, well that seems to be a whole lot of what Sonic does. Sonic likes breathing room, so if you can do your best to stay between tipper range and 2-21/2 sword lenghts away from sonic, Anything larger or smaller than that is effectively making sonic comfortable. if sonic starts charging spin dash... Breathe, its ok he isnt hitting you yet. WALK to sonic, WATCH sonic, when he takes off you have a few options, shield, counter, roll forward. spot dodge, or try to space the ball. I'm niot a huge fan of back roll. Ok so the most favored option by sonic (from my experience) is he likes to dash into you then go through you with a fair or an up air, if he end up behind you (you better have tap jump on) jump cancel your shield to up air, more often than not it will tip him if you time correctly. If sonic mistimes it bad you can actually up smash him, so watch for mistakes.

If sonic spins past you hold shield then chase the follow through, go for any aerial option as all of ours beat his pretty much, sonic is pretty much meat in the air and well he spends quite a bit of time in it. the goal is to hit him, not knock him out of the park, and at any point in the match up just aim for hits, you'll eventually kill him with bair or up throw, if you see an obvious smash puniish go for it. Patience is the name of the game in this match up.

If sonic just sits there and spins, continue walking to tipper distance and throw out something like dtilt, jab, dancing blade.

Once you are at higher percents sonic takes on a different behavior, he'll start camping you at the ledge of the stage, it's pretty obviious what he want, and that's a bthrow, don't get baited into getting grabbed and play ultra super safe and space well, you can give him a really big headache with grab attempts sometimes. Sonic should not be killing marth with anything but up smash, and fthrow.bthrow otherwise you misapced or messed up something. the up smash is from grabs too, and reads on landing.

50/50

Folks, I play a lot of wifi in order to practice for my in persons (doing one every week of April, will be my first time truly active since 2009) And one match up stands far and above as harder than others to me and that's bowser jr... of all things right? I can't seem to space him, and hes almost like playing with a sonic, well except he has explosives crawling on the ground that I must be aware of during his approaches. Makes things a giant headache, the match up feels like a knowledge deficiency on my part, and well the bowser jr boards don't really seem to help.. Care to discuss Bowser jr.? I'll add what I have to say after I get confirmation.

 

[Random4811]

Edit: weighing on Sonic. This match up plays heavily on bait and punish, well that seems to be a whole lot of what Sonic does. Sonic likes breathing room, so if you can do your best to stay between tipper range and 2-21/2 sword lenghts away from sonic, Anything larger or smaller than that is effectively making sonic comfortable. if sonic starts charging spin dash... Breathe, its ok he isnt hitting you yet. WALK to sonic, WATCH sonic, when he takes off you have a few options, shield, counter, roll forward. spot dodge, or try to space the ball. I'm niot a huge fan of back roll. Ok so the most favored option by sonic (from my experience) is he likes to dash into you then go through you with a fair or an up air, if he end up behind you (you better have tap jump on) jump cancel your shield to up air, more often than not it will tip him if you time correctly. If sonic mistimes it bad you can actually up smash him, so watch for mistakes.

If sonic spins past you hold shield then chase the follow through, go for any aerial option as all of ours beat his pretty much, sonic is pretty much meat in the air and well he spends quite a bit of time in it. the goal is to hit him, not knock him out of the park, and at any point in the match up just aim for hits, you'll eventually kill him with bair or up throw, if you see an obvious smash puniish go for it. Patience is the name of the game in this match up.

If sonic just sits there and spins, continue walking to tipper distance and throw out something like dtilt, jab, dancing blade.

Once you are at higher percents sonic takes on a different behavior, he'll start camping you at the ledge of the stage, it's pretty obviious what he want, and that's a bthrow, don't get baited into getting grabbed and play ultra super safe and space well, you can give him a really big headache with grab attempts sometimes. Sonic should not be killing marth with anything but up smash, and fthrow.bthrow otherwise you misapced or messed up something. the up smash is from grabs too, and reads on landing.

50/50

Folks, I play a lot of wifi in order to practice for my in persons (doing one every week of April, will be my first time truly active since 2009) And one match up stands far and above as harder than others to me and that's bowser jr... of all things right? I can't seem to space him, and hes almost like playing with a sonic, well except he has explosives crawling on the ground that I must be aware of during his approaches. Makes things a giant headache, the match up feels like a knowledge deficiency on my part, and well the bowser jr boards don't really seem to help.. Care to discuss Bowser jr.? I'll add what I have to say after I get confirmation.

Alternative to tap to jump that works better IMO is setting a shoulder button to jump

 

[Honor]

A moderator might have to move my comment because we're talking about Mario and I apologize but:

What is my most reliable option when Rosalina and Luma are at kill percent? Trying to get a good read and whip out an fsmash just seems to get me killed because they're looking for it. Nair and Fair only seem to get the job done if I tipper when they're already near the edge of the stage.

Most people agree that this MU is 50/50 but I'm finding it very frustrating.

 

[Xisin]

with Rosa you shoulldnt have to fish super hard for a kill. Any tip near the ledge (she'll be there often) should finish her off at any normal kill % and slightly earlier. Your job as a marth player is to get them near or on the ledge, or in the air. If you cannot do that reliably then you need to practice it more often. Things like tipped bair, tipped short hop shieldbreaker, tipped fair if its fresh or tipped nair can kill. If you can get a read on her and fsmash so be it, just be mindful that a fsmash kills her her super early but, if she punishes you for it you can be hurting pretty bad to her juggles. Last hit on tipped dancing blades finish her nicely too. Up throw will kill rosa at around 140ish on a normal ceiling, lower on halberd (tempting to take her there despite the risk, she dies by up throw at 110~ there.) Battlefield has a deeper ceiling so it'll be higher than 140. I'm really loving my up throw as of late, like even in brawl there were times were it seemed i couldnt land a finisher, i love my smash 4 up throw, its severely underrated and is now my don't worry about not getting kills move.


I'm really starting to like halberd as a counter pick, I accidentally found out yesterday you can tech diddy's dthrow on the platform on halberd (just buffer air dodge and you can tech roll the throw above diddy and effectively punish the up air that follows). I'm not entirely sure if it works for other throws, but i did it 5 times in one game agaisnt a diddy player who was actually kinda good. The shallow ceiling leads to nice up air, up smash and up throw kills, especially on the lighter cast members (killed kirby there at 109 with my own rage with up throw there... amazing.)

 

[Random4811]

with Rosa you shoulldnt have to fish super hard for a kill. Any tip near the ledge (she'll be there often) should finish her off at any normal kill % and slightly earlier. Your job as a marth player is to get them near or on the ledge, or in the air. If you cannot do that reliably then you need to practice it more often. Things like tipped bair, tipped short hop shieldbreaker, tipped fair if its fresh or tipped nair can kill. If you can get a read on her and fsmash so be it, just be mindful that a fsmash kills her her super early but, if she punishes you for it you can be hurting pretty bad to her juggles. Last hit on tipped dancing blades finish her nicely too. Up throw will kill rosa at around 140ish on a normal ceiling, lower on halberd (tempting to take her there despite the risk, she dies by up throw at 110~ there.) Battlefield has a deeper ceiling so it'll be higher than 140. I'm really loving my up throw as of late, like even in brawl there were times were it seemed i couldnt land a finisher, i love my smash 4 up throw, its severely underrated and is now my don't worry about not getting kills move.


I'm really starting to like halberd as a counter pick, I accidentally found out yesterday you can tech diddy's dthrow on the platform on halberd (just buffer air dodge and you can tech roll the throw above diddy and effectively punish the up air that follows). I'm not entirely sure if it works for other throws, but i did it 5 times in one game agaisnt a diddy player who was actually kinda good. The shallow ceiling leads to nice up air, up smash and up throw kills, especially on the lighter cast members (killed kirby there at 109 with my own rage with up throw there... amazing.)

With rage Uthrow will kill earlier. Another good option to kill her is Dsmash. The back hit of Dsmash kills pretty reliably, tipped or not. Usmash can catch her late aerials if she tries to land with anything but Nair really.

 

[Locuan]

Updated, it's Greninja time!

For those who are new to the thread, you are allowed to talk about any match-up regardless of what discussion period we are in ^_^. Also, I took Mario and Sonic Guy's ratio ideas and implemented it with Mario. I will continue utilizing it for the following discussion periods.

 

[FullMoon]

Gonna try giving my two cents about this MU. I'm assuming no customs because I never played a custom Marth.

So... Greninja has the advantage in neutral thanks to shurikens making Marth's life harder and forcing him to approach. Plus, Greninja's superior mobility and really good dash grab make punishing Marth for his mistakes really easy for him. I believe Marth does outrange Greninja though, which could be troublesome at points but thanks to being forced to approach, it's not too hard for Greninja to get in on Marth overall

Greninja can juggle Marth pretty well as I don't think he has any means of stopping Greninja's aerials outside of a well-timed counter, which can be risky to try. Greninja's sheer mobility makes Marth have a tough time landing. Marth's advantaged state is... Okay, I think. The range of his moves can allow him to juggle Greninja, which is further helped by the frog's fall speed, however Greninja does have a safer way to reset to neutral in Hydro Pump which makes Marth's advantaged state against him less effective.

Edgeguarding, from what I know Marth is always going to be recovering fairly low otherwise they risk being blown away by Hydro Pump or not sweetspoting the ledge and being punished. Recovering low means leaving yourself vulnerable to B-Air stage spikes though and that's something Greninja does pretty well. In the meantime, while Marth's aerials can make recovering a bit difficult due to his range, Greninja can mix-up his recovery very easily and be unpredictable enough to be able to recover safely. Recovering high is a good option for us as well since Hydro Pump makes us go so far to the point where Marth can't really punish our landing depending of how the pumps were fired.

Of course, Marth's tippers are veeery scary for us, so we have to respect him in that aspect, but overall Greninja really seems to have control over the MU for the most part. Shurikens pester Marth until he comes after Greninja at which point we just need to wait for an opening before grabbing you. Greninja has great reward on hit with his N-Air, D-Air, D-Tilt, Up-Tilt, Up-Throw and Charged Shuriken all leading into other moves that can combo even at kill %s. It's not as instant as Marth's tippers, but it's not to be underestimated.

I think the MU is 60:40 in Greninja's favor. The main issues in this MU for Greninja is Marth's superior range in his aerials (most notably F-Air and Up-Air) and the constant danger of an early kill caused by landing a tipper. Greninja can combo Marth very well and his dash grab allows him to punish any mistakes Marth makes and throw him right where he wants him to be.

I'll freely admit that I might be wrong on this, the Marth MU is not one I have much practice with so I might be wrong about some things regarding him, so feel free to correct me about it.

 

[Langston777]

you hit it pretty well
from our perspective:

- greninja's hitbox is pikachu tier short - makes approaching from the air very hard and generally unsafe.
- you didn't mention greninja's jab, it's just amazing and with beat any of marth's moves if he doesn't space at max range due to it's speed and range.
- shadow sneak is good if you make a read but knowledgeable marths will bait it out and probably take your stock if you try it
- Greninaja falls out of the 3rd/4th hit of DB at low %s and can shield the rest of it. DownDB4 will work past like 20% but it's still pretty tight since the hitlag in this game makes DB annoying as **** to consistently combo

i think if Marth shields a lot in this match up and uses his OoS options he will have an easier time than usual against defensive Greninjas. but i've played a decent greninja at my local once and managed to win going ham like i usually do, i just had to stick to the ground a bit more since nair and fair become **** for spacing/approaching.

overall this MU is a lot about patience and not falling for Greninja's grab set ups like you said. if greninja sees marth falling all he has to do is run up and grab him on descent. Marth needs to stay within a certain range and bait things out of Greninja and just counter them because marth just doesn't have the approach options to safely deal with greninja. from what i've seen, greninjas will tend to approach by just running up to you and rolling behind you (more so than most characters) so get those pivot grabs cookin' and those fsmash reads ready.

 

[Locuan]

Thanks for the input on the Greninja match-up! Due to the imminent patch that will be released next week, we will focus on match-ups that you guys have difficulty with. That being said, I look forward to seeing your future posts!

 

[kj22]

I got destroyed by Karna's shiek. The game was pretty much how well can you mix up your landing KJ?

A: Not very well.

Not going Marth against a sheik his level again lmao, that's probably Marth's hardest mu.
Feel like Marth does fine vs anybody not a top tier - Rosa.

Though I am kinda iffy going against competent Ganons, he's scary in this game @.@

 

[Honor]

^yea the Shiek MU is a nightmare and I haven't been able to deal with it well thus far.

R and L is a MU I struggle with even though most people here say it's 50/50. I ultimately think that my spacing just needs to improve and my life would be easier lol.

The Shiek MU is more pressing, I think, because I honestly don't know how to approach that one.

 

[Zorai]

Sheik is no worse for Marth than she is for anyone else.

 

[kj22]

Sheik is no worse for Marth than she is for anyone else.

lol

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, well if anyone has any match up questions they'd like to ask now's probably a good time.
I don't tend to go into how Marth/Lucina is meant to be played when talking about match ups, just the qualities that make it go one way or another.

Please more than just "how do I play against X?" (I really can't answer that other than "Marth things") better to have "what do I do about this move/that situation?"

 

[Locuan]

I'll start.

Scenario, Im Marth and have my shield up against an opposing Shiek who will more than likely F-air to setup shield pressure. What would be my best OoS option to reset to neutral or gain an advantage?

 

[kj22]

Hmm, well if anyone has any match up questions they'd like to ask now's probably a good time.
I don't tend to go into how Marth/Lucina is meant to be played when talking about match ups, just the qualities that make it go one way or another.

Please more than just "how do I play against X?" (I really can't answer that other than "Marth things") better to have "what do I do about this move/that situation?"

What do I do when sheik fair's my shield?

Answer: pray

But really though, what to do in close-combat situations as marth? every move seems like a huge commitment unless its an aerial so you can drift away to safety. When an opponent is right in front of me shielding is when I'm the most uncomfortable, as it's either throw out something and have it shielded then punished, or they roll away and get punished. I WANT SAFE BUTTONS TO PRESS

Marth seems really susceptible to dash in, could just be me. SH retreating fair could work but that's also giving up stage control ;/

b-reverse shieldbreakers are funnnn

gonna start landing with upair more. also jumping out of sh fair/empty landing/drift by bair.

so many ideas when you don't have/get to play the game

tipper downsmash front still strong? only tipped with it like thrice lol. finding ways to hit back hit of down smash--->next for marth's meta.

/ramble

Edit: @ Locuan ....I was literally typing this right before you asked the sheik question then I look up and see you had similar thoughts xD
Great minds think alike ;P

 

[Shaya]

Okay.

So you're already in shield.

And you're expecting fair, so this is before you've confirmed fair hit your shield?
Roll Forward or spot dodge at around the apex of their jump.
Or continue to hold shield.

You want fair to hit you at outside their grab range. Being in a position where fair to grab is not an workable the significant amount of safety you have.
What will they do?
Ftilt: let it hit the shield -> shield drop reshield or preferably shield drop turn around reshield; this is so you can bair out of shield as a punish.
Jab: let it hit your shield, let it push you out range and you have stuff like fsmash. If they're going to do jab1/2 repetitions or into ftilt, I believe you can roll in (if you know the repetition is coming) or safely roll backwards. Again, if you can find a way to face backwards you have the bair option.
note: if sheik jabs or ftilts you at like maximum range just nicking your shield... our own jab oos can work or just dashing away oos [which has ftilt/bair something somethings].
Grab: Oh no, you're within grab range. Roll in for risk, use grab yourself, dolphin slash or some early spot dodge. All of these get wrecked by sheik jab.
Dtilt: really smart of her. If it hits your shield just shield drop dash away, it's shortish range.

---

Down Smash is absolute trash and has mild usage as a ledge regrab hit -at best-. It's the same frame as up smash out shield, so it can be that type of 8% punish you look for. Otherwise ftilt out of shield.... The only other use is the fact that it has a 2 frame release window. Similar traps exist with shieldbreaker and that's perhaps something that the two used smartly can produce results together, or you just realise that shieldbreaker is infinitely better and safer with that trap.

Close combat situations we have shield reshields, perfect pivots, roll ins (with risk), mash jab. As i've hinted above, facing backwards for bair is likely our best position when getting hit on shield or pressured close, no time restrictions for ftilt, this is for when facing forward and shield grabbing really isn't cutting it anymore though. Bair is just massive, starts low, and all we have to do is hold shield for as long as sanely possible.
Beating dash ins... yeah, we only have roll in, dash grab, dtilt, pivot grab.

Probably seeing a bit of an ongoing theme here. Roll ins done smartly is our only means of reliably slowing the game down beyond down tilt. Retreating auto cancelled bairs. Holding shield a lot our own. Who's got the better patience? That's the game Marth is forced to play.

 

[Zorai]

You seem to really advocate bair usage. Do you use it in all possible situations? When is fair a better idea if ever?

I'm a big fan of trying to condition the opponent with full hop retreating fair and observing their reaction. This is a bad idea vs projectile heavy characters though. But I don't really play Marth vs projectiles (read: Pacman, Link, etc.) I would rather just go Wario or Diddy half the time. They can actually get in and apply pressure.

Anyway, I'm needing some more specific matchup knowledge. What the **** do you do against Villager? He just sideb's and you have no options - if you jump you eat a fair then probably a nair. If you give him room there goes stage control and your positioning. Just a horrible matchup

 

[Shaya]

Once lloyd starts traveling it will die to anything/everything. Just jab it. Walk forward. Take stage control. Patience.
If you're already on top of villager when you see side-b, that's free whatever you want.

Back air is a better out of shield aerial punish on grounded opponents, that's basically it.

 

[Zorai]

Oh yeah - I would like to be enlightened as to how Marth goes even with Rosa & Luma. It seems like all his approaches (including fullhop fair) get stuffed by upsmash alone and that's only one of the things she can do. Her aerials spell trouble for Marth as well.

 

[Quickhero]

Oh yeah - I would like to be enlightened as to how Marth goes even with Rosa & Luma. It seems like all his approaches (including fullhop fair) get stuffed by upsmash alone and that's only one of the things she can do. Her aerials spell trouble for Marth as well.

Marth's tippe(re)d aerials give Luma a run for his(?) money, and abusing things like SHAD and just spacing with platforms you can be able to abuse openings to get in on Rosalina. Rosalina has the perfect weight and height for Marth, meaning he can get an advantage off of set-ups rather easily and it makes so that Rosalina gets punished harsh for a tipp(er)ed attack from Marth that's generally easy to hit.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

So what are we gonna do now that the patch has been released? I assume we are going to wait a little while before we discuss MUs again, but when we do get back I think we should discuss Megaman or Link.

 

[Langston777]

how's marth fair against green diddy?

fireball spam always gets me, i don't know how to appraoch with out running the risk of getting combod for 30+%

 

[Rewrite]

@

Oh yeah - I would like to be enlightened as to how Marth goes even with Rosa & Luma. It seems like all his approaches (including fullhop fair) get stuffed by upsmash alone and that's only one of the things she can do. Her aerials spell trouble for Marth as well.

I fail to see how Rosalina's up-smash alone is keeping you out as Marth when every attack you have out-ranges up-smash. The only thing I can think of is that you need to work on your spacing.

 

[Zorai]

Yes, I'm also wondering when matchup discussion will resume.

Some matchups I'd like to see us talking about right about now: LUIGI (this is key), FOX, Megaman. After these handful of characters maybe we can continue on with the rest of A tier and below (:

 

[Locuan]

As I have mentioned previously, we can always talk about any match-up you all feel we should be discussing. Discussion periods do focus on one character but that hasn't limited us in the past as you might all remember with the Sonic Discussion etc.

We will resume officially next week with the cycle's you have all been used to. However, ask any questions you would like. As I mentioned previously:

Due to the imminent patch that will be released next week, we will focus on match-ups that you guys have difficulty with. That being said, I look forward to seeing your future posts!

Also, asking specific questions also go a long way as this allows us to help you in a more precise manner.

 

[Locuan]

The year is 20XX:

Mega Man Discussion begins!

 

[CopShowGuy]

I'd rather hear what the Marth-folk say first. I don't have a lot of Marth knowledge aside from the fact that his disjoints are better than ours.

 

[Zorai]

I've played NinjaLink in tourney who's probably the best megaman in the states right now.

Megaman played properly is hell for Marth, with or without customs. Marth's lack of a good landing option is exposed heavily here. In the neutral, you have no jump-ins due to the anti-air bomb (custom) and his upair. Pellets set you up for grabs easily, and are hard to deal with (I admit I don't really know how to deal with them).

Basically, Megaman creates a really big snowball effect once he gets Marth in the air. In addition, a perfectly timed dair by Megaman will even hit sweetspot attempts by Marth's standard dolphin slash (man NL is just too good) so definitely take crescent slash instead. With customs legal Megaman actually has a really solid landing option so there will be no abusing that flaw of his design.

Looking forward to more input (:

 

[Freelance Spy]

Megaman played properly is hell for Marth, with or without customs.
Looking forward to more input (:

I've been playing weeklies and every once in a while I get matched with a guy who can do this. I'll say that Iai counter is a necessary custom in this MU, it allows you to get in sometimes.. Megaman can create a ridiculously difficult to enter zone for Marth. I found I could win 50% of my matches vs this guy after learning megaman's tricks a lot better. This is a tough one so I'll say 45-55 MM's favor due to his control of the match. Only for the fact he is the one initiating the mindgame storm that is sure to happen here.

You CAN use his defensiveness against him if you are perfect. I have gotten more shieldbreaks on megaman mains than any other character in the game. Make them want to shield, then you'll have a better chance.

Sidenote~ Now that the sharing feature has been implemented, I am forming a group to test out how matchup advantages change with custom moves by playing crew battles. I'd like to start with Marth and eventually move to the rest of the cast. It should make our discussions more... Prominently accurate with backed up videos.

I need the best people for the job to PM me or add me on skype (kajinn87).

Mentioning you because you are the mod and I need professional help. Shoot me a PM and we can work out the details.

 

[p1ay6ack]

i'm a megaman main, and you can't let megaman setup his lemons and keep you out. if i'm the megaman, i treat my pellets like a sword, and i keep you poked at a distance with pellet. i usually short hop and lemon 1-2. wat you gotta do is do a fake out att to megaman like, hold b in the air, and let go. don't expect it to hit. time it so you have enough time to act out of the move, and go for a read. the purpose of doing this is making megaman commit to an attack, and you having enough recovery windows to retreat, then attack, and punish. keep yourself aggro here, and in megaman's face. don't let him land easily.

 

[Freelance Spy]

you can't let megaman setup his lemons and keep you out. if i'm the megaman, i treat my pellets like a sword, and i keep you poked at a distance with pellet.

hold b in the air, and let go. don't expect it to hit. time it so you have enough time to act out of the move, and go for a read. ....

Oh yeah that works, Also I take it you've never had your lemons properly Iai countered? you can (with proper spacing) really mess up MM's lemon game with that move.

 

[p1ay6ack]

Oh yeah that works, Also I take it you've never had your lemons properly Iai countered? you can (with proper spacing) really mess up MM's lemon game with that move.

lai countered? i dont think so. i notice when i get countered, it leaves marth open, so i dont commit myself and keep myself airborne, because i know i will get hit rushing in. what i do instead is 1 lemon, short hop, if marth counters, i'm already at a short hop, now i have options

like sweet spot lemon as a punish, watch marth's di,
then either slide, or up air as a followup combo

counter does work when megaman does go in. if megaman shoots 2 pellets at you, counter is likely to give you mixups. if megaman shoots 3 pellets at you, it puts megaman to end lag, and you have a lot of windows at landing counter. if megaman shoots 1 pellet, it's a bit hard to land the counter.

against a good marth player, i notice they make me go into shield alot, and try to down tilt me to pressure, and fair into a backward DI

 

[Random4811]

I'll start.

Scenario, Im Marth and have my shield up against an opposing Shiek who will more than likely F-air to setup shield pressure. What would be my best OoS option to reset to neutral or gain an advantage?

You could try Up B, but Shiek is pretty hard to do anything against

 

[Freelance Spy]

lai countered? ...

That all sounds like in game mindgame specific things to me.

Sure you could bait a counter, but a equally skilled player will play mindgames right back at you and the thing about iai counter is you basically have to use it on reaction instead of as a read, so I don't see great players falling for this.

Iai counter causes Marth to glide towards the thing that triggered it. What I was saying is that if you hit me with a (short enough ranged) projectile you are getting hit by the counter.

You are making a good case as far as your options go. Marth has some to get past a few of them, but I think megaman has more advantage.

 

[Xisin]

get inside via short hop air dodges, short hops empty and short hop attack mix ups. once inside and you can get a hit send him above you with db grabs or other methods. Juggle him, hard... don't let go, he has just as hard of time as us landing, maybe even worse. To kick this megaman's juggle game aside from cheese up airs is pretty booty. That said the objective is to get him above you, you can literally react to all of his options. Be very careful of megamans bair. I don't think its a terribly difficult match up once inside the lemons.

 

[Rewrite]

I play the Marth vs. Mega Man match-up on an almost daily basis. The match generally comes down to whomever can read and mind-game harder. If my opponent picked Mega Man in a tourney I wouldn't feel uncomfortable going Marth.

The neutral game consists pretty much of hard reads. Mega Man has to read how Marth will approach and Marth has to read how Mega Man will stuff Marth's approach. Xisin mentioned short-hop air-dodging and empty hops to approach and while they are good options they become predictable and can be punished easily. Simply shield-cancelling your dashes is really effective since it's a really fast option. It's really safe too since past the tipper range Mega Man can't just dash in and grab you.

I don't find the lemons as aggravating as most people do, even if they hit me. While grounded their hit stun isn't great and although you'll take some damage you can still advance through them for the most part with shield. I find them a mild annoyance at worst.

The trick is to get at tipper range and then stay there. Simply being at that range is putting pressure on the opponent. Unless Mega Man pulls a clever trick out of his sleeve or hard reads you it's difficult for him to escape Falchion's range without resorting to his jumps or up-special. Even though you have the advantage at tipper range its important to note that Mega Man isn't helpless and can poke you with lemons, do a fast dash grab, short-hop aerial, and punish you for haphazardly throwing out smash attacks or shield breakers.

If you can bait Mega Man into the air then you can press your advantages hard since Marth has air superiority and Mega Man has a difficult time dealing with opponents beneath him. If you can condition Mega Man to air-dodge or attack when you are below him or are jumping at him from below he's pretty much free.

It's a really even match-up. If it was skewed in one characters favour it would be Mega Man's, but not by that much. Hope you got good mind games, boys and girls.