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Marth in Ankoku's List for MLG Events
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
So nervous he got an agreement where FD wouldn't be banned and they'd only play neutrals.
Why should local tournaments count? They aren't the highest level of play (far from it, in fact).
ice-
Smash Journeyman
Chun dominates 3S actually, but that was kinda my point. Just b/c your character doesn't have a bad matchup, doesn't mean it should be banned. GG is really balanced but Eddie doesn't have a bad matchup with anyone, but he goes even with a few.- Isn't Guilty Gear one of the most Balanced Fighting games out there, where pretty much every character is viable?
- Ken, Chun Li, Makoto, and Dudley do just as well on the tournament scene, and Ken is proved to be even with Yun. Plus Chun Li devastates everyone else even moreso than Yun. Yun is not dominating in the same matter as MetaKnight.
- Strange... I heard Zangeif > Saget in SFIV....
And the Japneses said Saget ***** and they have had the game longer, so I will go with them, but the game seems to be more balanced at least at this point.
so, it doesn't matter. very LARGE NATIONAL PRO tournies like the one's AZ posted are the only valid ones. who wins a tournie between some 5th graders in appaloosa doesn't matter when there's a 200+ person tournie with all the pros there
otg
Smash Master
lolllllllllll truth. No jonz.
frdagaa
Smash Journeyman
Snipped for just the results. So, AZ wants to say "No no no, results are all that matter, screw you," well fine. Let's just look at the results. Melee first, then Brawl.
Marth: 1st and 4th. Not bad.
Now, Metaknight: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th.
Results are all that matter? Fine, AZ, I give up. I admit it, MK is more dominant. You win.
O wait, you were saying Marth was more dominant in Melee? My bad. You're wrong. The results disagree. Marth still placed top, but Metaknight places top MORE. And to the exclusion of other characters more.
Finally, the pro-ban argument is not what you seem to think it is. You're straw manning it, which is a logical fallacy. This particular element of the argument is almost immaterial to the whole. This thread innately declares that Metaknight should not be banned because Marth was not; however, Marth is ONLY comparable to Metaknight in this way. Not in how destabilizing he was to the metagame, community, etc., and those are some of the stronger aspects of the pro-ban argument.
So, for those of you who think that AZ has a point: alright, he does. Marth also did well. However, Marth does not compare to Metaknight in other, just as significant criteria for the ban. Marth should not have been banned. Metaknight should be, because he is actually "beyond the metagame," whereas Marth was just one of the best characters. Metaknight destroys the cp system, he almost completely invalidates several otherwise good characters, and he obviously strongly polarizes the community. He is dangerously unhealthy for Brawl, and I care more about Brawl than that one character.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I started playing Meta Knight as my tournament main four weeks ago, not two weeks.
I already had a massive amount of tournament experience and got to constantly watch dmbrandon, Shadow, Mew2King, and teh_spamerer play Meta Knight at a very high level, so I picked up on stuff easily and quickly. That's why my Meta Knight got so good, so fast.
Correct.
The best Diddy, NinjaLink, who I have played many times, lives in my region. Atomsk's second best character he frequently uses for some of Dedede's bad matches, like Game and Watch, is extremely good. He's my doubles partner, so I have a lot of practice against his Diddy. Two players at my college main Diddy. Jigglymaster, a top NJ player, mains Diddy. I play against Diddy a LOT.
GofG
Smash Champion
He's still around?
demodemo
Smash Ace
i've never made a post in these "metaknight" threads, but i would just like to raise about about characters becoming viable after a ban, even if this point has been mentioned before
i think all of the top tier characters have some good counterpicks/4-6 matchups, and the counterpick characters instantly become viable as well. Then people can counter those characters, etc. and everything just grows exponentially.
The only problem i can think about is g&w, but then again i don't know too much about him so i don't have any solid points.
Basically, banning metaknight may still let other high tiers take the top 3s, but it makes so many other characters tourney viable, and i think that is a great thing!
once again, sorry if i sound like an echo hahaha
i think all of the top tier characters have some good counterpicks/4-6 matchups, and the counterpick characters instantly become viable as well. Then people can counter those characters, etc. and everything just grows exponentially.
The only problem i can think about is g&w, but then again i don't know too much about him so i don't have any solid points.
Basically, banning metaknight may still let other high tiers take the top 3s, but it makes so many other characters tourney viable, and i think that is a great thing!
once again, sorry if i sound like an echo hahaha
Inui
Banned via Warnings
He quit at the end of July and returned to the scene just last month. He's not a top player like he was back in his prime, but I still played him a lot and teamed with him a lot, so I picked up on a lot of cool stuff he used to do. My Meta Knight plays a lot more like his and Shadow's than Mew2King's LOL.
GofG
Smash Champion
Inui
Banned via Warnings
He beat Mew2King before LOL. Him and I dominated in teams a lot and he constantly placed high and has taken out me, Atomsk, teh_spamerer, and other top players in our region many times. He was pretty good before he quit.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Snake beats Meta Knight and he goes nearly even with Falco, Game and Watch, Diddy Kong, and Zero Suit Samus. Some players in MD/VA think Kirby also goes nearly even with Meta Knight. NY thinks DK goes nearly with Meta Knight.
I'd say MK/Snake is MK 45-55 Snake after talking with JesiahTEG and others in WNY about it recently. So we pretty much agree with MK having disadvantages too. Snake's just being underrated a lot recently since his decline in popularity.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Myself, teh_spamerer, and Mew2King all think it's 60/40 in Snake's favour if Snake camps heavily, but 55/45 also makes sense. Regardless, Snake wins.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
No one really cares what you think Inui for a few reasons.
A.) You have a Yu Gi Oh reference in your sig.
B.) You have the Powerpuff Girls in your sig.
C.) You don't have any references to JesiahTEG in your sig.
A.) You have a Yu Gi Oh reference in your sig.
B.) You have the Powerpuff Girls in your sig.
C.) You don't have any references to JesiahTEG in your sig.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
LMAONo one really cares what you think Inui for a few reasons.
A.) You have a Yu Gi Oh reference in your sig.
B.) You have the Powerpuff Girls in your sig.
C.) You don't have any references to JesiahTEG in your sig.
A.) Atomsk's crew is Enemy Controller, and I'm in it.
B.) I liked that anime and they're hot LOL.
C.) I still love you, though.
:[
We think it's pretty stage dependent too. But even on MK's counterpicks like Rainbow Cruise we've been feeling if Snake plays it right and camps effectively on the stage the worst it'll really be for him is 50/50. A Snake vs MK set is really winnable for Snake.
Fail Jesse. WNY loves Yugioh. We're going to shun you now.
Rainbow Cruise has a low roof at many points of the stage, Snake once past the "upwards" moving section could definitely be considered to have even or advantage.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
personally, i think marth can compete even at the higher levels, it's just that people get impatient you know?
Umby
Smash Master
Tbh, a comparison between two games of completely different physics, in this matter, can create a flawed perspective of the whole matter. Marth used to dominate in Melee, yes. But the game physics allowed a number of other characters to compete toe-to-toe with him in a match, not to mention you had to have gained a considerate amount of technical skill to become even decent with him from a competitive standpoint. Also, Marth's moveset was dampened (just like many other decent/good melee characters to a point where even he had his limitations and obvious weaknesses.
Meta Knight on the other hand, is allowed by the game engine to just go apeshit on everyone. First off, he has what was available to Melee characters (through L-canceling) that was not supposed to be completely available to everyone in Brawl: Low wind down lag on his aerials. This allows even the most base of competitive players to just spam aerials for about 5 minutes and be half-decent with him within the course of a day. Even his smashes have low wind-up/cool-down lag and can be spammed almost as freely. Whorenado s just an obvious case, so there's no real point in detailing that. Furthermore, he has 5 mid-air jumps and a disjointed hitbox. So he has a better advantage off-stage in Brawl than Marth did in Melee.
My main point is that both Melee Marth and Meta Knight have tools that can completely **** the metagame, but in respect to their own game engines, MK ***** more in his and doesn't require as much effort as Marth does in Melee.
In spite of all that, I don't think MK should be banned. Why? People say MK has no/few bad matchups, with most of them being even. There's nothing glaringly overpowered by that fact alone, and quite honestly, I wish that statement were brought up less often in these kind of discussion. I also believe that the metagame should be given more time to evolve before making any kind of decision on banning a character. A lot of us have said it before - Brawl is a new game and the metagame needs time to evolve so that characters can develop and so that the tier list can become more accurate. Why should an evolving metagame exclude waiting to see if Meta Knight becomes less dominant? An "unfair" character doesn't deserve unfair treatment in that regard.
Meta Knight on the other hand, is allowed by the game engine to just go apeshit on everyone. First off, he has what was available to Melee characters (through L-canceling) that was not supposed to be completely available to everyone in Brawl: Low wind down lag on his aerials. This allows even the most base of competitive players to just spam aerials for about 5 minutes and be half-decent with him within the course of a day. Even his smashes have low wind-up/cool-down lag and can be spammed almost as freely. Whorenado s just an obvious case, so there's no real point in detailing that. Furthermore, he has 5 mid-air jumps and a disjointed hitbox. So he has a better advantage off-stage in Brawl than Marth did in Melee.
My main point is that both Melee Marth and Meta Knight have tools that can completely **** the metagame, but in respect to their own game engines, MK ***** more in his and doesn't require as much effort as Marth does in Melee.
In spite of all that, I don't think MK should be banned. Why? People say MK has no/few bad matchups, with most of them being even. There's nothing glaringly overpowered by that fact alone, and quite honestly, I wish that statement were brought up less often in these kind of discussion. I also believe that the metagame should be given more time to evolve before making any kind of decision on banning a character. A lot of us have said it before - Brawl is a new game and the metagame needs time to evolve so that characters can develop and so that the tier list can become more accurate. Why should an evolving metagame exclude waiting to see if Meta Knight becomes less dominant? An "unfair" character doesn't deserve unfair treatment in that regard.
Metro Knight
Smash Ace
Well, maybe Marth should have been banned too. His sword was so much longer in melee. qq qq qq qq qq
10qqs
10qqs
Iwan
Smash Ace
This.
I really, really don't feel like bringing up points that counter this argument.
Again. For the billionth time.
*sigh*
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
marth is the best character imhmro
Inui
Banned via Warnings
-If Snake camps with grenades and lays other explosives, Meta Knight can't approach. If he attacks, he gets blown up. His only option is to try and grab Snake and up throw him, but since that's literally his one and only option, it's extremely predictable.
-Falco completely shuts down Meta Knight's ability to camp and play defensive with his lasers. The lasers beat the tornado and the tornado is very ineffective against Falco anyways. Falco can CG combo him to ~60% and then kill with his smashes at ~100%. Meta Knight has more range up close, but he has to work around lasers and never get grabbed in order to have any real advantage.
-Diddy Kong's up-tilt beats Meta Knight's best camping move against Diddy, u-air. Bananas beat 100% of Meta Knight's moves and always start off in Diddy's control. Diddy can combo into any of his moves, including his kill moves, from bananas. Diddy's f-air beats all of Meta Knight's aerials.
Those are just three examples. Against Dedede, he has to camp MASSIVELY because Dedede wrecks him in a close up fight.
Meta Knight can't do whatever he wants.
Tournament results were able to change for Marth though, that's the KEY difference. Because he wasn't the best in the game, there was a possibility for someone else to win future tournaments, especially Fox. However, Metaknight is both dominating tournaments and removes the possibility for others to win these tournaments when he is present, as you have also admitted Metaknight has dominant tournament results. This is why I call for a ban, not just because of the tournament results, but because of the lack of possibility for change of this due to his character being the best and the absence of badmatchups. Not the case with Marth who was NOT agreed to be the best.
I'd like to see a Snake's opinion of the marth metaknight matchup. Seems to me the only players who claim it's in Snake's favor are meta mains that can beat every snake out there. I personally believe it is 55-45 Meta, due to Meta's insane ability to get gimps on Snake. Snake can grenade camp to stand a chance, but if Snake makes one mistake he can really easily lose a stock because of that poor recovery. Also, when Snake grenade camps, he loses a lot of his other options and is making it quite an even matchup for both characters. Once Meta gets the lead with a gimp, even trading hits with grenades won't be enough for Snake to catch up . I see it as 50-50 as the worst when Snake plays the perfect camping playstyle.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
tournaments are where it counts the most and makes the most impact, so that's why
Exactly, that's what I'm argueing about. FUTURE tournaments. We couldn't ban Marth in Melee because there was a good chance he wouldn't win those tournaments that he did win. The odds weren't extremely skewed due to a system of counterpicks. I'm glad we can agree that it's all about tournaments because that's exactly what I'm saying.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I used to counterpick Meta Knights with Snake long before I mained Meta Knight because I felt that Snake won. I still feel that he wins and would rather go Snake than do the ditto.
Edrees, Meta Knight isn't some dominating unstoppable force. I posted a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE list showing the losses of top ATLANTIC NORTH Meta Knights to other players using NOT Meta Knight. It's solid proof that Meta Knight is stoppable. Forte was long considered second only to Mew2King when it came to Meta Knight, yet he lost three money matches to Atomsk's Dedede.
Edrees, Meta Knight isn't some dominating unstoppable force. I posted a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE list showing the losses of top ATLANTIC NORTH Meta Knights to other players using NOT Meta Knight. It's solid proof that Meta Knight is stoppable. Forte was long considered second only to Mew2King when it came to Meta Knight, yet he lost three money matches to Atomsk's Dedede.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
edreesespieces is made of pure win
Pikaville
Pikaville returns 10 years later.
The new generation of smashers need to learn to be more patient.When a good MK loses why does he lose?More than likely because the opponent was patient and played smarter.Fair enough he is VERY good.But doesnt that mean you b***h about him being broken.
Remember what Marth used to be able to do to Fox,Falco and CF.Massive chain throw combos,tippers that would kill near the edge on lowish %.It exactly like that now except its not chaingrabs or tippers.
People just got sick tech skills,mindgames and learned his game.
Think of it like this.....
So many good players have made the transition for melee to brawl.They find this character that has clear advantages and begin to exploit them straight away.Since the ground skills from melee are there it allows the players to learn the MK game really quick.
Since brawl has been disseccted from day one.(unlike melee)Good players have instantly had the chance to constantly improve and learned to exploit character traits quicker than newer players.Thus we have the MK we know now.
Let me use this example.If PC chris,Ken,Isai,Chudat instantly knew everything about melee that we know now after few months.How do you think people would have reacted back then!
I think its just the overwhelming amount of techs/discoveries in such a short space of time has allowed one character to develop more rapidly because of a few great traits and people dont like it.People need to learn to exploit MK every weakness and use it as much as possible no matter how hard it is.You will eventually breakthrough a wall.In melee the progression was gradual and people slowly learned tricks to beat Sheik and Marth.In brawl everything has been thrown out in the open straight away and since nothing seems to work very effectivly against MK people are getting frustrated.
Just make SURE you play better/smarter than your opponent its that easy.
People who say they cant beat metaknight never will.The guys who beat him are the ones you should talk to.
Remember what Marth used to be able to do to Fox,Falco and CF.Massive chain throw combos,tippers that would kill near the edge on lowish %.It exactly like that now except its not chaingrabs or tippers.
People just got sick tech skills,mindgames and learned his game.
Think of it like this.....
So many good players have made the transition for melee to brawl.They find this character that has clear advantages and begin to exploit them straight away.Since the ground skills from melee are there it allows the players to learn the MK game really quick.
Since brawl has been disseccted from day one.(unlike melee)Good players have instantly had the chance to constantly improve and learned to exploit character traits quicker than newer players.Thus we have the MK we know now.
Let me use this example.If PC chris,Ken,Isai,Chudat instantly knew everything about melee that we know now after few months.How do you think people would have reacted back then!
I think its just the overwhelming amount of techs/discoveries in such a short space of time has allowed one character to develop more rapidly because of a few great traits and people dont like it.People need to learn to exploit MK every weakness and use it as much as possible no matter how hard it is.You will eventually breakthrough a wall.In melee the progression was gradual and people slowly learned tricks to beat Sheik and Marth.In brawl everything has been thrown out in the open straight away and since nothing seems to work very effectivly against MK people are getting frustrated.
Just make SURE you play better/smarter than your opponent its that easy.
People who say they cant beat metaknight never will.The guys who beat him are the ones you should talk to.
infernovia
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2008
- Messages
- 675
So basically what AZ is saying is that don't pay attention to the points system but rather the actual matchups? kk.
You make me lol.
MK doesn't really have any techs/discoveries, unless you count IDC. He rips people apart without anything but the basic elements of gameplay.
Pikaville
Pikaville returns 10 years later.
But thats kinda my point.People arent learning to play well.Their learning to play crazy.Unlike MK plyers who need just pure skill to win no techs or nothing.People need to learn to play better.BECOME A BETTER PLAYER BY BEATING THE S**T OUT OF MK!
Someone needs to relink to that video of DMK vs Sethlon's Falco to dispute Inui's claims. DMK wins by doing nothing but using Up B, B, and Dsmash... and Sethlon has a good Falco.
Also, if a Metaknight is smart/patient he can easily get past Snake camping, toss you in the air, and wail on you til he messes up, b/c of his ability to attack a trillion times while you're falling. Hell, sometimes his upairs hit Snake w/o blowing up the nades in his hand, should he pull one out. Not to mention all the MK has to do is pop Snake out somewhat low/at stage level for a very easy up B gimp.
Also, if a Metaknight is smart/patient he can easily get past Snake camping, toss you in the air, and wail on you til he messes up, b/c of his ability to attack a trillion times while you're falling. Hell, sometimes his upairs hit Snake w/o blowing up the nades in his hand, should he pull one out. Not to mention all the MK has to do is pop Snake out somewhat low/at stage level for a very easy up B gimp.
Hurray for more ignorant posts ^_^