Marth 1.1.1 Patch Changes

[Didier337]

Has anyone tried Tipper U-air into SB on shields?


Edit: If we can't get buffs that combo the opponent,let's see if we can find ones that can on their shields

 

[DariusM27]

Also i think the spike hitbox on Dair is bigger, i spiked bowser directly under me, and i mean he was /directly/ under me.

I spiked some marths who were pretty seemingly far to the left of me. Hard to say, but I know the feel man.

Also, just hit three shieldbreaker reads on sheik, medium charge and shield didn't break. #pissed

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I spiked some marths who were pretty seemingly far to the left of me. Hard to say, but I know the feel man.

Also, just hit three shieldbreaker reads on sheik, medium charge and shield didn't break. #pissed

You're right. Shield Breaker was definitely nerfed. I landed some that instinct told me would 100% break it... And they didn't. Need pretty much full charge.

The opponent is forced to hold shield for 5 more frames now. They're draining their own shield for 5 frames after you shieldbreaker them. It should make up for 5 less shield damage.

Experimentation is showing this to NOT be true... Shield doesn't seem to shrink during stun.

 

[Illuminado]

Why is everyone concentrating on sb. Who gives a **** about sb balancing. Focus on the new game wide mechanic and what that means for our neutral game. Tipper fair and nair some Shields and observe the results. Notice how if you space perfectly you can't be tilted by a lot of the cast anymore? Magic. Now please chill out about 5 shield damage.

 

[cerealkiller]

Why is everyone concentrating on sb. Who gives a **** about sb balancing.

Fantastic comment sir. A true Marth.

Sarcasm mode OFF.

Them shields: https://twitter.com/Shulkified/status/649298263355584512

 

[Illuminado]

Fantastic comment sir. A true Marth.

Sarcasm mode OFF.

Sorry. It's just irritating people getting hung up over such a small thing. In all honesty, I'm sure it really doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things. Watching a lot of other Marth players play, they barely even utilise shield breaker as an actual "shield breaking" tool, let alone even use the move. The threat of it and its *pressure* on shield is far more relevant than its ability to physically break it in one hit. If we're all honest with ourselves, how often did that happen anyway even with +30 damage on shield? How often were you sitting there going "eh, wtf that didn't break his shield?". Lets look at whats happening in the game at large now post patch. Shields getting broken all over the place by a variety of the cast. Its way too early to get hung up on a number adjustment before we know how it pans out. In terms of internal testing, they decided it needed to be lowered because they considered it was too strong after they changed shields at large. That should be the thought process, rather than thinking in a ceteris paribus situation. The game has changed significantly mechanically, so there is little ground for comparison in numbers. If its too weak after this, they'll end up increasing it again.
My frustration is more from the fact that rather than discussing a 5 damage decrease, we should be using our combined time and efforts to discover how Marth works in this new environment. Thats all. It is what it is basically, so lets like, get on with it. As a whole, we've been pretty good at that as a character board. Just sad to see that everyone devolves to whining as soon as we receive a balance change.

 

[DariusM27]

Sorry. It's just irritating ets like, get on with it. As a whole, we've been pretty good at that as a character board. Just sad to see that everyone devolves to whining as soon as we receive a balance change.

We used to break shields where now we don't. You do realize that is a nerf, right? They nerfed an already low tier character, you get that, right?

 

[cerealkiller]

We used to break shields where now we don't. You do realize that is a nerf, right? They nerfed an already low tier character, you get that, right?

In addiction to that I think that people also forget that even though the SB nerf was necessary because of the changes to shield mechanics, which is probably true Marth would be somewhat broken, and even though Marth benefits from that in other ways, STILL at the end of the day Marth got a nerf.

Maybe most top players don't use SB a lot but I do, both during more casual playing but also competitively. It's a useful tool.

 

[Illuminado]

We used to break shields where now we don't. You do realize that is a nerf, right? They nerfed an already low tier character, you get that, right?

I'm trying to imply its not a nerf in this context. Its an adjustment. If you're taking it as ceteris paribus (i.e, all things are equal) then yes its a nerf. SB goes from 30>25. But things aren't all equal. Shielding and mechanics associated with it have completely changed this patch. You're still looking at SB isolated from this instead of alongside this. Thats the mistake here. If the patch notes were entirely just for Marth and read "SB damage has been reduced. Hit stun on shield has been increased on every move" would you then try to think about the overall reasoning for SB being changed rather than just knee jerking over a number? It's been a day man. They wouldn't nerf a character thats constantly been buffed every patch for no reason. In their internal testing in a variety of scenarios against a lot of the cast (AND SHIELDS) the shieldbreaker in this patch at 30 manifested as being over tuned. They put it to 25 to stop that being an issue. This says to me that we need to find the scenarios that made them feel this was necessary rather than obsessing over the move in isolation. I am almost 100% certain there is an on hit shield combo that links into SB as at least a 50/50 that will pop a shield with no charge now. Otherwise, why the change?

 

[Quickhero]

The shield stun buff is broken as hell, but my lord Marth benefits from it. The shield stun changes make it much harder for you to punish Marth's n-air, jab, and basically every move Marth has. Marth just became a lot safer.

 

[Illuminado]

^^^^^^ This.

 

[cerealkiller]

They wouldn't nerf a character thats constantly been buffed every patch for no reason.

I know what you mean but I can't resist to still say: it's Sakurai man! He's done many things for no apparent (or at least good) reason.

Otherwise, why the change?

The reason for the change seems obvious. As you said yourself, the team decided to change shield mechanics and as a result Marth got an overpowered SB. So that Marth don't start breaking shields left and right they had to nerf the move. The only thing me and some are complaining about is, whether the patch was overall good or not Marth got nerfed in this specific department.

Breaking shields wasn't piece of cake before, it was still tough. And the purpose of ShieldBreaker is to break shields. Breaking shields seems even harder now and for some of us that's a nasty nerf.

Bottom line, it now seems everybody is making a HUGE deal out of this but I think it's a good thing to discuss these things to improve our playstyles

 

[Illuminado]

I know what you mean but I can't resist to still say: it's Sakurai man! He's done many things for no apparent (or at least good) reason.



The reason for the change seems obvious. As you said yourself, the team decided to change shield mechanics and as a result Marth got an overpowered SB. So that Marth don't start breaking shields left and right they had to nerf the move. The only thing me and some are complaining about is, whether the patch was overall good or not Marth got nerfed in this specific department.

Breaking shields wasn't piece of cake before, it was still tough. And the purpose of ShieldBreaker is to break shields. Breaking shields seems even harder now and for some of us that's a nasty nerf.

Bottom line, it now seems everybody is making a HUGE deal out of this but I think it's a good thing to discuss these things to improve our playstyles

Thats fine and I have no problem against constructive and forward looking discussion. Unfortunately (and I'm genuinely not pointing any fingers at anyone) people seem to ready to regress into just "OMFG IM NOW UPSET BECAUSE ITS A NERF". It happens. Deal with it, talk about it. Find ways around it. If you have a massive massive problem, dont play the character anymore. Simple really . Its like no one here has played any kind of online multiplayer game before with balance updates. .

 

[Mellowmike]

I personally feel if any changes will come to Marth (or any current lowmid- low tier or new midlow -low really...) that will be substantial, they will be coming after the dust from this patch settles. With out a doubt. MANY characters will became a lot better with this patch, all swords(wo)man and multi-hit characters to be kinda-not-really specific. Every Fire Emblem character can now approach shields with aerials (fair/nair) and actually not have to worry nearly as much about being punished due to the ending lag. Even Shulk's nair options just increased (speed and buster bby), along with everyone who has falling active nairs (Shiek-Luigi- Mario-Link). Those are just ideas of what got better off the top of my head. Also Pikachu, Pikachu just got a **** ton better, fair/bair/dair are all multihit and can be spaced more aggressively...

IF Marth isn't going to be good enough with this patch, and with how good all of the other characters are going to get, (hopefully none will be nerfed to heavily anymore, Luigi got beat down hard enough now) the Falchions will see true buffs in the future.

 

[CommanderRin]

Lucina is now safer than Marth on non-tippered moves according to the new Shield Stun formula.

Aka, You want tips now.

(Damage/1.75) + 2

 

[MOI-ARI]

Ahh i see! So we are in agreement?

goodness me...

 

[Illuminado]

Ahh i see! So we are in agreement?


View attachment 75966
goodness me...

Lacuna plez

 

[Locuan]

Ok reading this thread made me realize that a lot of you rely too much on shield breaker. It's not a move you should be using constantly when there are better options in the neutral. Shield Breaker is an appropriate tool though when you trap an opponent in a situation that they are likely to hold up their shield and you punish them for that. For example, when they land and/or tech on a platform. It still works well in these situations.

As others have said let's focus on the shield changes. Shaya made a thread regarding that:
http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/

To quote:

Attacks with hit lag modifiers below 1.0 no longer receive safety bonuses, those above 1.0 (or 1.25 from 1.1.0 patch) are conversely safer than before.

In other words, now more than ever, the tipper is a great tool to have. We need to focus on tailoring our gameplay to work around this more so than just lamenting the loss of 5 hit points of damage on opponents shields.

So basically,

1. Go to the frame data and figure out how much shield stun our tippers do after this patch.
2. After that, figure out if we will be safe when using said moves on shield. For those that aren't, don't incorporate those heavily into your gameplay.
3. Perfect the craft.

Basic outline.

 

[DariusM27]

I'm trying to imply its not a nerf in this context. Its an adjustment. If you're taking it as ceteris paribus (i.e, all things are equal) Otherwise, why the change?

It is a nerf. We can't break shields when we could before.

The hitstun to shields being global means marth gains no competitive advantage compared to others.

 

[CommanderRin]

You guys still talking about shield breaks like we Ryu or DK.

Can we talk about shield safety instead?

 

[Freelance Spy]

Well, as much as I am kinda upset that shields are harder to break I'm actually excited that I can return to my brawl style shield pressure. I was the king of brawl shield breaker and you better believe I'm going to get used to knowing the exact time to pop a shield in this patch just like I did years ago.

I'm way too happy to cry about my favorite move getting nerfed, it'll be that much flashier to land a break.

Having a bunch of new safety is better than having a move people can spotdodge on reaction. Besides, we are probably still going to be one of the better shield pressure characters now. Peach notwithstanding...

Now if SB got a buff I'd want it to be in its frame data. Faster startup is preferred so no more dodge on reaction bit endlag reduction is also welcomed. I'd have these buffs if it meant we lost half our shield damage.

Funny, I was in anguish the moment I heard of the getup attack nerf. I knew that would mean less shieldbreaker for me. I was enraged when I was testing my SB to see if it was any better. I hadn't tested any other moves on shields, but I saw the difference and got ready to start a Marth strike.
Then I was relieved when shieldstun was confirmed.

I'm going to win my next tournament now. As solo Marth. No secondaries or pocket characters to make up 50% of bad MUs. I'm going to win again, thanks to sakurai.

 

[Bribery]

LordWilliam1234 did the calculations for Marth vs shields in 1.1.1 here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/edit?pli=1#gid=1636352940

The shieldstun changes essentially negate the hitlag changes on his sourspots.
His sourspots are just as safe as before, not less safe.
His tippers are MORE safe than before. Safer than his sourspots now.

So in all, Marth was buffed with these changes.

His original post:

Changed the shieldstun values in my frame data sheet. Took one off for all of them to be consistent with how others have been counting the shieldstun frames (no longer counting the frames of shieldlag as one frame of shieldstun). Doesn't affect my numbers for shield advantage.

Also finished with Marth's numbers. I believe it was mentioned earlier in the thread, but he's just as safe on his sourspots as he was before, but his tippers are now MORE safe than his sourspots. Usually only by a frame, but still.

 

[DariusM27]

LordWilliam1234 did the calculations for Marth vs shields in 1.1.1 here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/edit?pli=1#gid=1636352940

The shieldstun changes essentially negate the hitlag changes on his sourspots.
His sourspots are just as safe as before, not less safe.
His tippers are MORE safe than before. Safer than his sourspots now.

So in all, Marth was buffed with these changes.

His original post:

So our "big buff advantage" is that if we land a tipper fair or bair, they will be stuck in shield for a two frames longer than normal?

 

[CommanderRin]

Glad to see F-air and N-air finally being safe. Surprisingly U-air is the safest aerial?

Curious as to safety differences between the Falchions now.

 

[Pugwest]

Shield breaker didn't change at all btw. Idk what you guys are complaining about.

Every characters shield got easier to break so the nerf was needed or else Marth would just one shot any full shield , I still have instant shield pops after 1-2 fairs depending on how long they hold for. So no, no nerfs to Marth this patch but a spacing buff. Cya on the front lines.

 

[Freelance Spy]

So I've been messing around with FSMASH tippered on shield, did not get punished by captain Falcon. It looks like we can act at the exact same time as whoever missed the powershield.

Then again I'm testing by myself.

 

[cerealkiller]

Shield breaker didn't change at all btw. Idk what you guys are complaining about.

Every characters shield got easier to break so the nerf was needed or else Marth would just one shot any full shield , I still have instant shield pops after 1-2 fairs depending on how long they hold for. So no, no nerfs to Marth this patch but a spacing buff. Cya on the front lines.

lol No matter how you try to put it there's just no way around it: Marth GOT A NERF in his shield breaking. What's so hard to understand?

1- A character raises his shield
2- Marth uses Shield Breaker
3- Shield doesn't break as easily
FACT

Are people overreacting? That's another thing. If overall shielding has become less safe that's another thing. If Marth benefits in his neutral game from general changes that's another thing.

Jigglypuff has now a better ShieldBreaker then Marth

From reddit:
equiace 37 pontos 8 hours ago

I love how Marth and Lucina got shieldbreaker nerfs to keep their shield damage fairly constant with this new patch, but Pound slipped right by! It's funny that "No changes" is the biggest buff that Jiggs has ever gotten.

 

[CommanderRin]

I'm glad you all have success with Shield Breaker at your level of play...



Seriously, shield breaker is a hard read or punish and trying to complain about a move that was so slow you could think about dropping shield isn't gonna get you guys anywhere.

Yes, shield damage was nerfed. Deal with it.

Stop feeling entitled each patch. Work with what we have and deal with what we get whether it be beneficial or not.

 

[DariusM27]

ignore accidental post

 

[ARGHETH]

How about, games should be balanced, and when they aren't, the game is crap. And if it's a franchise you care about, you then say something about it because you don't want to see it go down the toilet when you know the problems could be easily fixed.

Sorry for intruding, but what does this have to do with anything?

How about I can complain about my already low tier character getting unnecessarily nerfed all I like, because it makes no sense.

How does it not make sense? SB was nerfed because higher shield stun made it a little too good at breaking shields. Whether or not it was nerfed too much is debatable, but there is definitely a reason behind it. DK also got nerfed, after all...
Also lol at Marth being low tier. Where's every other non-Ike FE character? Bottom tier?

Jiggs has a more legitimate and reliable shieldbreaker than the move that is called "shieldbreaker". That was marth's thing, now I land ineffective shieldbreakers all the time that would have landed me certain early kills.

Pound only hits 6 frames earlier and still has less shield damage than SB.

It's a perfectly legitimate complaint if there ever was one. So bugger off.

How nice.

And why are you this mad? Do you really use SB that much?

 

[DariusM27]

Sorry for intruding, but what does this have to do with anything?

How does it not make sense? SB was nerfed because higher shield stun made it a little too good at breaking shields. Whether or not it was nerfed too much is debatable, but there is definitely a reason behind it. DK also got nerfed, after all...
Also lol at Marth being low tier. Where's every other non-Ike FE character? Bottom tier?

Pound only hits 6 frames earlier and still has less shield damage than SB.

How nice.

And why are you this mad? Do you really use SB that much?

I'd be just as upset if they nerfed Ike. He is higher tier than marth but he is still not deserving of nerfs.
Nerfing a character that is already at disadvantage is the problem.

 

[CommanderRin]

Stop feeling entitled to character balance. I wish people understood that this game isn't "meant" to be competitive. We shaped it that way.

 

[cerealkiller]

Stop feeling entitled to character balance. I wish people understood that this game isn't "meant" to be competitive. We shaped it that way.

That was true in Melee, maybe even Brawl. But I stopped believing in that i Sm4sh. Why on earth would Nintendo bother to adjust a few IASA frames, ending lag, startup, 1% damages changes, etc etc that absolutely no casual would ever notice, months after release? Competitive play that's the answer.

 

[Didier337]

Shouldn't we be glad that shields got a nerf?It benefits all characters,granted some more than others but smash 4 is heading toward the right direction little,by little.

Pros:
-Has multiple kill options
-Good edge guard game
-Counter forces the certain characters to be creative with their recovery(Ike,Link,Roy,Little Mac,Ness,etc)
-One of the best vertical recovery
-Can dash Trot
-Tipper(Enough said)

Cons:
-Lacks safe neutral pressure
-Lacks Strings
-Weak punish game

Now can we focus on figuring out if this patch can defeat these cons or improve some of his pros?

 

[Cactusblah]

Stop feeling entitled to character balance. I wish people understood that this game isn't "meant" to be competitive. We shaped it that way.

Sakurai and Nintendo clearly acknowledge the competitive community now. They wouldn't make all of these specific balance changes otherwise.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Shouldn't we be glad that shields got a nerf?It benefits all characters,granted some more than others but smash 4 is heading toward the right direction little,by little.

Pros:
-Has multiple kill options
-Good edge guard game
-Counter forces the certain characters to be creative with their recovery(Ike,Link,Roy,Little Mac,Ness,etc)
-One of the best vertical recovery
-Can dash Trot
-Tipper(Enough said)

Cons:
-Lacks safe neutral pressure
-Lacks Strings
-Weak punish game

Now can we focus on figuring out if this patch can defeat these cons or improve some of his pros?

Come on, his most reliable Kill option is Upthrow at 150% Unless you guys found a guaranteed setup for kills before that...

Still love Marth, though.

 

[AkumaKing]

Come on, his most reliable Kill option is Upthrow at 150% Unless you guys found a guaranteed setup for kills before that...

Still love Marth, though.

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not...But he has much better kill options.

 

[DariusM27]

Come on, his most reliable Kill option is Upthrow at 150% Unless you guys found a guaranteed setup for kills before that...

Still love Marth, though.

Short hop, nair1 fastfall, fsmash...

Or usmash, grab, db, or up b

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Short hop, nair1 fastfall, fsmash...

Or usmash, grab, db, or up b

Maybe Upsmash if that actually guaranteed combos. DB, upB and Non-Tipper Fsmash are hardly gonna kill before these same ultra high% I talked about unless it's right next to the ledge. Not even talking badly of Marth, there's characters that can't confirm a KO no matter what, like Yoshi, for example.

Am talking about an guaranteed KO that can be confirmed reliably before 140+%. Most of Marth's stuff is really situational and if you're unlucky not-perfect, good enemy will just live to those % where these can kill. Versus like.. A Sheik, maybe you'll get a lucky tipper Bair KO earlier, but I'm not seeing how this will cut it at 100%.. Maybe I'm just bad? Just don't reply with Dair spike combos, the Utilt/Uair footstool techs or anything else that is "gimmick".

Perhaps tipper jab mixups? But it's not even 50/50 there.

 

[Didier337]

Maybe Upsmash if that actually guaranteed combos. DB, upB and Non-Tipper Fsmash are hardly gonna kill before these same ultra high% I talked about unless it's right next to the ledge. Not even talking badly of Marth, there's characters that can't confirm a KO no matter what, like Yoshi, for example.


Perhaps tipper jab mixups? But it's not even 50/50 there.

Apparently you missed the cons

"-Lacks Strings
-Weak punish game"

but marth has very reliable kill moves and if your not going for tippers why are you not using lucina?