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Meta Mario Matchup Thread

IndigoSSB

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Apr 14, 2015
Messages
441


Main Matchup Thread


Mario Frame Data

Corrin Frame Data

Widely considered as having some of the best frame data, Mario is considered one of the best characters in the game. He has a solid projectile, in my opinion the best reflector in the game, and a top notch close range game. The battle between dragons and plumbers commences!

Goal of Primary Discussion:

  • Find our strengths in this matchup
  • Discuss our cons in this matchup
  • Choose our best stages for this matchup
  • Discuss Neutral Game
  • Discuss Ledge Game
  • Discuss Off Stage Game
  • Discuss Stock Ending
  • Discuss Advantage
  • Discuss Disadvantage
  • Overall Tips
  • Summary

Character Specific Topics:
  • Spacing game with our disjoints
  • Optimal ways to get out of Mario's combos
  • Viability of Dragon Fang Shot with risk of Mario's cape
  • Counterpicking
We can discuss who wins this match-up and develop strategies against this specific character. This discussion will end with an agreed match-up ratio.

Schedule
Week 4: Fox
Week 5: Captain Falcon

Also, at the end of your posts mention what characters you'd like to discuss in the future. I'd like to know what match-ups people are generally interested in.
 
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IndigoSSB

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Apr 14, 2015
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I'll also drop this video here. It goes without saying that Ally's Mario is more polished than Esam's Corrin, but I still think it's worth analyzing.


 
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Sucio Guapo

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Mar 31, 2016
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Hey guys I'm a Mario main and I have some things to say about this matchup. Btw s/o to indigo for bringing me to this thread. After watching Esam v. Ally, probably the best showcase of the mu, this is what I've collected:

On paper, people may think this is a one-sided matchup due to Corrin's superior range. However, when you dive deeper into the matchup, it's suprisingly better for Mario.

Corrin's main aerial approach options seem to be nair and fair. Spacing these moves incorrectly can lead to Mario shield grabbing you and using oos nair. I don't believe we can punish crossed up bair with oos up smash nor oos bair. F smash and side b has outrageous range, can't be punished with our shield plus our puny range, and scares the crap out of us. Your juggle game isn't necessarily as effective here bc Mario's air speed lets him drift away. Also, unsafe neutral bs will give Mario massive punishes, which you guys DO NOT want. My tip would be to use anti-airs in your tilts and maybe up smash (idk) to stuff Mario's aerial approach options.
Overall, while Mario does do relatively well, Corrin's disjoints are still bothersome. I'd say 45:55 Corrin.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
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Aug 25, 2012
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I don't think Mario's air speed factors into escaping Corrin's juggles since opponents who are hit by Corrin's aerials are in hitstun for a considerable amount of time. You're right though, spacing our aerials against Mario is incredibly important since we don't want to eat unnecessary damage.

Also, Ryuga v. Ally is a better match to analyze since ESAM's Corrin is in its infancy.
 
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Garde Noir

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 3, 2014
Messages
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I don't think Mario's air speed factors into escaping Corrin's juggles since opponents who are hit by Corrin's aerials are in hitstun for a considerable amount of time. You're right though, spacing our aerials against Mario is incredibly important since we don't want to eat unnecessary damage.

Also, Ryuga v. Ally is a better match to analyze since ESAM's Corrin is in its infancy.
While I agree with your last statement, it's also worth noting that Ally falling into the traps of a relatively new character at the time is different than Ally getting hit after learning what the character can do.
Ally seems a lot more solid on the OoS options against Corrin in the ESAM matchup, and his follow-ups are harder to avoid. ESAMs juggles seem pretty okay, but his edgeguarding game needs work, and I'd argue that is more important, since Mario has a fast, but more predictable recovery. I think ESAM opens up a little too often, whereas Ryuga tends to play a little more safe with juggles and pressure instead of misread punishes on Fsmashes and Dragon Fang and takes earlier leads because of it.
 
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Copy pasting my 2 cents on the match-up from another thread
Just from my experience and from what I heard, watched and understood about the match-up, so if there are any objections or any other points anyone wants to raise, feel free to post

Well, in this match-up, you're suppose to use your disjoints and range against Mario, since Mario's overall range on his moves isn't all that impressive (to put it lightly). Mix up your spacing tools between SHFF f-air, n-air, b-air, and d-tilt. Try not to jump too much because if you're too predictable with your aerials, most competent Mario mains would just adapt, dash to you while you're in mid-air to close the distance and (attempt to) punish your landing and we all know that Corrin's landing options are (not bad but) lacking. The main advantages Mario has is in this MU is that once he manages to land his combo starters, you're gonna take a lot of damage, but he still needs to get through your wall

Mario's approaches such as grab, b-air and d-air are not that hard to deal with. N-air gets annoying though only because the only reliable way you can actually deal with it is by using f-air, b-air (although it's frame 13 so) or IP, but the thing is you can't really get that much out of retreating f-air or b-air. There isn't really any potential string you can net from landing the moves from that certain scenario or position so you're gonna have to settle for the low damage output. Regarding IP, just don't use it too much. Like, IP is really good. Don't get me wrong, but it gets predictable and most players might just shield it the next time they anticipate you using it. Shielding is kinda not that helpful because Mario's n-air barely has any end lag so it's hard to punish. I think maybe a reverse u-air could work against Mario's n-air approaches. Like, the latter hitbox of u-air could beat out Mario's n-air and you can even get some follow ups out of it. Not sure about this one, just thought of it now. Lol. (Edit 2: Just saw the new heat map for Corrin's grounded moves. U-tilt seems to do a fair job in stuffing Mario's n-air based from what I saw. I guess) Use your jab or d-tilt (both are frame 5 and are your fastest options on the ground) against Mario when they're trying to grab you. If you don't feel comfortable using both those moves, then a retreating f-air or n-air will work, or just run away and IP. Other than jab and IP, pivot grabbing should also be another option to take note of. In case they start dash > shielding to deal with jab/aerials/IP, use your pivot grab. You don't get much out of throws (other than positional advantage), it's your best option against an opponent that's trying to dash > shield. Well to be honest, I still think you can actually deal with dash > shield by spacing your aerials properly (use those retreating aerials) but grabbing is your safest bet against shield

Regarding DFS, uh. Y'know, having a projectile is great and all but Mario has a reflector so be careful. Don't be predictable with it. In fact, you should refrain from DFS in the neutral frequently. Just to play it safe. Use it though for tech chasing when you can or use it off from a n-air or f-air. Just don't throw it out that often. Dragon lunge.... yeah. No. Not repeating myself for this one. Counter surge, well, it's a counter so use it if you're confident that you can predict what your opponent's next move is. I'm not sure if you can counter out of Mario's d-throw combos

When it comes to combo'ing Mario, well, try not to overdo it because he could n-air out of Corrin's strings. Just go for the true combos or maybe start a string on him then maybe see how the Mario player reacts. If he's the type that jumps out to escape combos, that's a queue for you to punish their landing. If they're the type that n-airs out almost all the time. Just bait out the n-air then punish them for throwing it out. If they're the type that air dodges, well, punish it

I'd love to talk about perfect pivoting and how it really helps in the MU but eeeh. Don't think a lot of people have grinded or practiced PP'ing yet (correct me if I'm wrong) so I'll refrain from talking about it

Here are some video footages of the match-up. Some of these may be outdated (maybe only the first video) but it's all I can scrounge for in the archives:
 
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Hero_2_All

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 2, 2016
Messages
168
So i'll add some two sense because I played 2 good Mario's in my local bracket last night. Obviously the biggest thing is for the love of all that is holy do not let Mario grab you. Really it comes out as does mario get grabs? no? corrin wins. Yes? Mario wins. From the experience of the matches I'd say its easier for corrin to keep him out than him to get a grab, but only slightly. The first Mario was around my skill level and game one right off the bat he got a couple grabs and gained a huge lead, but I managed to wall him out and make a comeback getting to a last hit last stock situation for both, but a bad read resulted in me eating an u-smash. He didn't feel confident in his Mario after the comeback, and quickly switched to his Diddy to take the next game. Next Mario in losers was apparently PR'ed in Socal at one point named U Lee (really nice guy btw). He took game 1 and 3 pretty handily while I somehow managed to wall him out and took game 2. This somewhat has me inclined to think maybe this match up is a little bit in corrin's favor. As he was the clearly better player, but I managed to take a game pretty handily when I walled him out.
 

OceloT42

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Also it's good to keep in mind that fireballs can interrupt both your dragon lunge instant pin,and your water ball thingy.
Other than that, I'd say it's in Corrin's favor.
 
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