Mario Match-Up Guide 2014

[KoopaTroopa895]

I think it is about time we try and update our matchup guide. It has been a while and we need a good place to centralize all this theory crafting.

Like the old match-up guide I would like to get through most of the top tiers first, but if you have a bunch of random knowledge about one character you'd like to post about go ahead. Please at the very least keep posts relevant about match-up discussion. I am using the 2010 tier list as for the order.

Match-ups finished, the finished match-ups are in green, while the unfinished ones are in red.

Currently Discussing
Fox
Fox
Falco
Jigglypuff
Sheik
Marth
Peach
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Samus
Pikachu
Mario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Link
Young Link
Zelda
Roy
Mewtwo
Yoshi
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu

 

[KoopaTroopa895]

The old two match-up guides(some of it is outdated but it is worth a look.
2007
http://smashboards.com/threads/marios-matchups-updated-may-15-2007-only-missing-zelda.83826/

2010
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-mario-match-up-discussion-thread-now-on-falcon.286647/

 

[JazzDynamite!]

I'd be down for this discussion.

However, one thing I think we should avoid is the use of ratios (such as 50:50). I've always felt that you can't really quantify match ups and it'd actually be more accurate to just describe them in terms like even, soft counter, hard counter, etc. (kinda more in line with the style of the '07 list)

 

[Britex]

Out of all the top tiers, I think Fox is Mario's easiest match-up, although that's not saying much. He doesn't have huge range like Marth or Sheik and doesn't have Falco's lasers to shut down our approach, meaning Mario has a good chance in the neutral game.

I'd also say that the punishes both characters get out of grabs in this match-up heavily favors Mario. The plumber can chaingrab Fox up to 50-60% with up-throw, and after that down-throw can chaingrab up to really high percent. Both of these grabs keeps the character really close to Mario, giving him ton of punish options.

In regard to the edgeguard game, Mario has solid tools to deal with Fox's recovery. A good back-air and up-air, walljumps and the cape makes Mr. M pretty scary on the ledge if he reads Fox's recovery. I'd like to give a special shoutout to fireball and down-air, which I think are two very good underused options. While fireball aren't the best projectiles, their trajectory are perfect for hitting a space animal during his up-b and you can sometime use the hitstun of the fireball to follow up with a quick up-air. Down-air on the other hand has a big hitbox and lasts for a while, so it's a move that's really easy to hit on a recoverying spacies with. If say Fox's is recovering right below the ledge on yoshi's story, Mario can simply grab the ledge and short-up dair the firefox, forcing fox/falco to do it again. If they don't react fast enough you can edgehog them and if they do, you can simply repeat the process until they mess it up or until you feel ready to go for the kill with something like a drop-off cape, nair, etc.

Even with all of this, the match-up is still in fox's favor because Mario has few tools to deal with the pressure and speed of Fox; and a Fox that doesn't try to play fancy and just plays a solid, unflinching shine back-air, run in aerials and up-smash, up-air for kill is hard to deal with. It's also somewhat easy for Fox to edgeguard Mario since all he needs is one shine while we usually have to hit them with a tons of aerials or a really well-placed cape to do the same. Fox has the better kill power too in this match-up.

Imo, this match-up is 60-40 at worse, but certainly winnable for Mario. Very fun match-up.

In regards to stages to pick or bans, Yoshis is Mario's best stage but also a very good fox stage, this will create very volatile and quick matches. FD is probably in our favor due to chaingrabs, while Pokemon with its low ceilling makes fox kill us pretty early. Dreamland gives a lot of spaces for fox to run around, but Mario can be played pretty fast so it's not that big of an advantage for him. Battlefield is even, and Fountain is kinda like yoshis but the platform aren't as good for us there, I think. I might just be biased because I don't like this stage.

Well, that my thought on the match-up.

 

[KoopaTroopa895]

Alright I'm finally done with school and my workload has decreased, so I am finally going to start writing on these. Expect one later tonight.

 

[a rookie]

So what exactly do we have to write about? Just the Fox matchup? Or?.... :o

 

[Britex]

For now, just the Fox matchup. We'll switch to Falco when we're down with Fox and we'll move down the tier list just like that.

 

[KoopaTroopa895]

So what exactly do we have to write about? Just the Fox matchup? Or?.... :o

Essentially the whole point of a match-up guide is so current Mario players can exchange all the information they have and learn from each other. The next main reason is that newer Mario players can check here for quick up to date melee meta. So on to how I feel about this match-up

Mario vs Fox

This match-up is generally a fun but ridiculously hard match-up.

The neutral game favors fox(as does every neutral game really). He dash dance alone covers a lot of room. The priority of his aerials are also huge. Up-tilt can stuff Mario in the air and losing your combo to a one frame shine is disheartening. Basically he can out space the hell out of you(I'm really bad at explaining the neutral game). Mario's main tools to combat this are uptilt crouch canceling and just baiting him and punishing him when he misses(whiffing). Up-air can also catch them above you, and if you've got the read and the spacing right forward smashing a fox is something as well. You can also stuff them with down air to catch their short hop aerial. And I guess a surprise Up -B especially out of shield works as well. A lot of it(at least to me) feels like you as a Mario need to react to a really obvious approach(like a fox short hop neutral air'ing from far away). Read him with up-smash and finally occasionally just straight up guessing(not recommended). Just know that the fox neutral game is all about stuffing him, and then trying to destroy him once you get in.

With destroying him in mind let's talk about the punish game. Mario's most notable punish tool is his grab of course. Up-throw leads from 0 - 40/50ish%. It's also important to note that while up-throw is a chain grab from zero it is ridiculously hard to get a re-grab in the first 10% or so. So you have to make a read if you do go for the re-grab at zero percent. It is the same problem with down-throw where the d-throw chain grab starts around 50-60ish%, but reacting to it is hard because down throw is so fast. Also not enough people practice the down throw chain grab(from a personal feeling standpoint). Down-throw is amazing because the fox does not hit the platform on the d-throw chaingrab due to them not bouncing very high. Where in the up throw chain grab Fox will hit the platform of most stages around 15%(excluding dreamland which I haven't tested). Making it harder to get the punish. Anyways the chain throw aside from grab you have a lot of options. Up-tilt, up-air, d-smash, u-smash, f-smash(if they miss the tech)all of these tools are available from a grab and have different outcomes and grab leads into a lot. A lot of these are DI dependent and it is important to experiment with them as much as you can. Up-throw up-smash with no DI can lead into a second and sometimes third up-smash. D-throw up-tilt if DI'd improperly around 60% leads into a free re-grab. D-throw up-smash around 120% can kill Fox. D-throw D-smash at stranger percents with no DI can send Fox in the opposite direction as a DI mixup. These are just a few examples(and anybody who has more please list them), but Mario is literally a giant imagination full of possibilities and it is important to experiment with a lot of it on your own.

I'll be back later to talk about edgeguarding and a lot of other punishes later today.

EDIT: will post tomorrow as smashboards is going through maintenance, writing it now though. look forward too it

 

[BrandyB]

Fox is definitely the most fun top tier matchup in my opinion. It's challenging in the best possible way, and so rewarding when you win.

I don't have much to add on the matchup, but I guess I can talk stages even though it's pretty straight forward. FD is a great stage to counterpick to (if they don't ban it of course, which most people do). But it's good to keep in mind if you play any other characters in tournament like I sometimes do. At my most recent tournament I was playing Falco against a Fox and he counterpicked to FD assuming I would stay Falco, so I switched to Mario and F'd him up (no pun intended). So that's just something to keep in mind. Besides that, Yoshi's is obviously good for recovery (Up-B wall jump) and FoD is decent too since Fox typically kills off the top and we kill of the sides/with edge-guards. Battlefield is battlefield. Dreamland might be good if you got an aggro-fox on your hands and you want some more room, but I've personally never taken a fox there. Oh and ban Pokemon Stadium.

 

[Madbro]

I think this needs to be updated. ; /

 

[VegiLohrd]

I need some help against marth. I just can't seem to beat his range. What should I do?!

 

[a rookie]

I need some help against marth. I just can't seem to beat his range. What should I do?!

For Marth, approaching as close to him as possible w/ shield is pretty good. Also, mixing up your run in timing w/ cape is pretty good if you time it accordingly. If he does any move and you time cape perfect, you turn him around while he's doing the initial move and you get in for free. But full hop, waveland fireball is good. Even a fireball in general might be good to open up a Marth. Don't forget to CC if he's only poking you to death. You could get away w/ a CC dsmash(very fast) or fsmash(for more range). Other than that, you have to know Marth's ranges, especially tipper ranges and practice shielding in those areas. Ftilt is your longest poke besides cape and it's pretty fast if you WD then ftilt. Comes out pretty fast, but always try to hit w/ the tip if possible since they can't shield grab it at that distance. Hope this helped :/