Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[Rashyboy05]

Dear Sakurai

Once again you have wasted an opportunity to buff sonic

Okay seriously, why does Sonic need any buffs?

 

[Shaya]

Thread closed for now because the answer to most of your questions is:
No.

Unless it's something ending lag, attribute based. And if so, until we have a flow of that information coming in, you should message me (or another applicable mod if I'm asleep) to reopen this thread or append things to the OP.
You can probably go to your character boards and ask if they think there's anything looming.

 

[Shaya]

Apparently there's a big engine change with shield stun~

 

[Shaya]

I'm testing Link's frames and every single one of his normals causes more shieldstun. With the way the numbers are changed I think this means that there was a change to the formula for shieldstun.

Jab 1: Shieldstun increased from 1 frames to 4.

Jab 2: Shieldstun increased from 1 frame to 4.

Jab 3: Shieldstun increased from 2 frames to 5.

F-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 10.

D-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 5 frames to 9.

U-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 4 frames to 8.

The shieldstun for the rest of his normals change in a similar pattern.

In addition to this it appears that hitlag modifiers on shield may have changed again. Link's f-smash 2 originally had 12 frames of self shieldlag and the opponent only had 10. Now both Link and the opponent have 12 frames of hitlag. His uncharged spin attack was 10 frames of opponent shieldlag, 11 frames of self shieldlag; now it's 11 frames for both. Full charge was 13 frames of opponent shieldlag, 15 frames of self shieldlag; now it's 15 frames for both.

So what does this mean? Well, not only does it mean that potentially everyone is safer on shield, it also means that some multi-hitting moves are true blockstrings now. So you block one hit you're forced to block the rest. Yoshi/Wario/Mario d-air, Mega Man b-air, Sonic/Dedede/Ryu f-tilt are some examples. Not all multi-hitting moves are like this though (e.g. Fox/Jigglypuff/Dr Mario/Kirby d-air, Super Pit Bros/Lucas n-air, Super Pit Bros/Pikachu f-air, Pikachu b-air, rapid jabs), so I'll have to look into why (most likely because even with the shieldstun increase, the gap between the hits on those attacks is just large enough).

I'm gonna check Ryu and Marth next to see what impact this has on them.

This patch was not as insignificant as some may have thought.

So it looks like the engine change from the last patch was reverted, shield hit lag now = hit lag?
We'd need to see on moves with lots of hit lag to be sure, but shielding characters are receiving more hit lag.

Shield stun is seemingly up as well... significantly so...
I'm guessing shield stun now has a base of 3 (from 0) and is scaling slightly better I'll have to run some numbers as we get more to see if I can figure out quickly (fortunately all my shield safety stuff from my data topic will be easy to update!!!).

 

[GeneralLedge]

Shield stun is seemingly up as well... significantly so...

If this stands to be true, I'm significantly happier than I was five minutes ago. And I haven't even updated my game yet.

 

[jmanup85]

So it looks like the engine change from the last patch was reverted, shield hit lag now = hit lag?
We'd need to see on moves with lots of hit lag to be sure, but shielding characters are receiving more hit lag.

Shield stun is seemingly up as well... significantly so...
I'm guessing shield stun now has a base of 3 (from 0) and is scaling slightly better I'll have to run some numbers as we get more to see if I can figure out quickly (fortunately all my shield safety stuff from my data topic will be easy to update!!!).

Question, is that why this happens?

https://twitter.com/_infrom_/status/649196617187246080?ref_src

 

[Shaya]

Question, is that why this happens?

https://twitter.com/_infrom_/status/649196617187246080?ref_src

Most looping hitboxes in the game that I've seen in recent times tend to hit 1 out of 3 frames or 2 out of 3 frames. In the latter case it ensured that the move could not be shield dropped in between. If a move now has a minimum of 3 frames of shield stun there would be no gap available to drop shield or start another shield drop action.

So.... very very likely.

Also
[9/30/2015 8:00:01 PM] JP: And I feel like changing shield damage is, pretty weird by itself
[9/30/2015 8:00:15 PM] JP: I wonder if something else mechanic came with it
Currently 12.48AM

CALLED IT.

 

[Antonykun]

So it looks like the engine change from the last patch was reverted, shield hit lag now = hit lag?
We'd need to see on moves with lots of hit lag to be sure, but shielding characters are receiving more hit lag.

Shield stun is seemingly up as well... significantly so...
I'm guessing shield stun now has a base of 3 (from 0) and is scaling slightly better I'll have to run some numbers as we get more to see if I can figure out quickly (fortunately all my shield safety stuff from my data topic will be easy to update!!!).

does that mean Sonic is a bigger pain now?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Omg if that shield change is universal, then I think Yoshi dair became an actual threat to shields now.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I'm not confirming anything but from what I've heard it seems like shields have been made weaker (thus why shield breaking moves were nerfed, otherwise they would have been automatic shield breaks in this new patch.) There also seems to be more shield stun, and less shield pushback.

This could be huge.

 

[FullMoon]

So did Sheik become even more impossible to punish now?

 

[Iron Kraken]

Some multi-hit moves like Rosalina's rapid jab and Lucario's Aura Sphere charge seem much more difficult to roll away safely from.

 

[Horseketchup]

So the previous shieldstun formula the community came up with was:

X/2.58

By base 3 increase, would that mean that it's now:

(X+3) / 2.58

or

(X / 2.58) + 3

Either way this rules....I can't contain my happiness

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok, so I followed the exact same procedure outlined in this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/foxys-guide-to-testing-and-labbing.417822/ in 'lab scenario 2' which was written pre-patch, and instead of Link having a 1 frame advantage, he now has a 5 frame advantage. This would seem to indicate (at this very early stage at least) that moves are safer on shield.

 

[RyuIsDio]

I am to believe that Link's Uptilt got nerfed.

 

[Jamurai]

This might explain why strong shield breakers were nerfed. Increased shield stun means you're forced to hold shield for longer, which against strong shield breakers is maybe a tad too strong; shieldbreaker --> 3 HP left on my shield --> have to hold it b/c shield stun --> broken shield. So the shield breakers were nerfed in case the shield stun change made them a bit too easy to break shields with.

This also explains the Lucario video from earlier where Falco couldn't drop his shield against Lucario's aura sphere charging hitbox because it hit him too frequently meaning he was in constant shield stun.

 

[q_e_d]

So did Sheik become even more impossible to punish now?

Pretty much so, yeah.
But now other characters have safer moves as well, so if Sheik now has a very very hard/impossible move,
but other characters actually get hard/impossible to punish moves too that's probably overall a good thing for balancing.

 

[EnderBolt]

Didn't random talking Bush confirm that there are changes to every character?

 

[Horseketchup]

This is literally the best single global mechanic change they could've made to the game. So many ppl have been asking for less safe shields, and they actually did it. This patch could possibly allow shieldstun to approach Melee levels, which imo was pretty much perfect.

 

[GeneralLedge]

So did Sheik become even more impossible to punish now?

I'm going to hypothesize that, with significant changes to shield stun (and HP?), Sheik is going to have a harder time playing it cool. Or, rather, you don't need to be 'as' on-point with your spacing or safe moves as before, because Sheik can't punish you for it as easily.

If Sheik is S tier because the mechanics are tuned in her favor, this is a potentially brutal nerf to Sheik. I expect a tournament upset in the future.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

If you want the full numbers for Link Shaya :

Jab 1: Shieldstun increased from 1 frames to 4.

Jab 2: Shieldstun increased from 1 frame to 4.

Jab 3: Shieldstun increased from 2 frames to 5.

F-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 10.

D-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 5 frames to 9.

U-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 4 frames to 8.

Dash Attack: Shieldstun increased from 5 frames to 10 at the base, 6 frames to 11 at the tip.

F-smash 1: Shieldstun increased from 3 frames to 7 at the base, 6 frames to 11 at the tip.

F-smash 2: Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 10.

D-smash: Shieldstun on the front hit increased from 6 frames to 11. Shieldstun on the back hit increased from 5 frames to 9.

U-smash: Shieldstun on the first two hits increased from 2 frames to 5. Shieldstun on the final hit increased from 5 frames to 9.

N-air: Shieldstun on the strong hit increased from 5 frames to 9. Shieldstun on the weak hit increased from 3 frames to 6.

F-air: Shieldstun on the first hit increased from 4 frames to 7. Shieldstun on the second hit increased from 4 frames to 8.

B-air: Shieldstun on the first hit increased from 2 frames to 4. Shieldstun on the second hit increased from 2 frames to 5.

D-air: Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 10.

Z-air: Shieldstun on the first hit increased from 1 frame to 4. Shieldstun on the second hit increased from 2 frames to 6.

Spin Attack (Uncharged): Shieldstun increased, from 6 frames to 11.

Spin Attack (Full Charge): Shieldstun increased, from 9 frames to 15.

Shocking Spin (Uncharged): Opponent and self shieldlag is now 16 frames. Previously was 10 frames for the opponent and 15 frames for self (the overall increase is due to the damage buff). Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 12.

Shocking Spin (Full Charge): Opponent and self shieldlag is now 22 frames. Previously was 13 frames for the opponent and 20 frames for self (the overall increase is due to the damage buff). Shieldstun increased from 9 frames to 17.

Link's projectiles did get shieldstun changes, but for some reason most of them also get hitlag changes too. And I'm pretty sure they didn't get any damage changes. And it doesn't seem like the shieldstun changes for the projectiles follow the same formula as his physical attacks.

Hero's Bow (Uncharged): Hitlag reduced from 6 frames to 5. Shieldstun increased from 2 frames to 4.

Hero's Bow (Full Charge): Hitlag reduced from 9 frames to 7. Shieldstun increased from 5 frames to 6.

Power Bow (Uncharged): Hitlag increased from 5 frames to 7. Shieldstun increased from 1 frame to 3.

Power Bow (Full Charge): Hitlag increased from 12 frames to 16. Shieldstun unchanged.

Quickfire Bow (Uncharged): Hitlag reduced from 5 frames to 4. Shieldstun increased from 1 frame to 3.

Quickfire Bow (Full Charge): Hitlag reduced from 7 frames to 6. Shieldstun increased from 3 to 5.

Gale Boomerang: Hitlag unchanged. Shieldstun increased from 3 frames to 5.

Boomerang: Hitlag unchanged. Shieldstun increased from 4 frames to 5. Hitlag on the returning hit unchanged. Shieldstun on the returning hit increased from 2 frames to 4.

Ripping Boomerang: Hitlag unchanged. Shieldstun increased from 2 frames to 4.

I'll get the numbers for Ryu next, hopefully that'll shed some light on the shieldlag changes.

 

[GP2]

Okay I hope this doesn't count at spam but can I ask what the shield tweak to sheik, zelda, and dark pit means?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fox boards thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-1-11-changelog.419094/#post-20218627

Apparently the damage decrease was to Fox's lasers from his throws only, his lasers from Special-B do the same damage. I'm only sharing here, would appreciate if someone could confirm (I'm at work atm).

 

[Nate1080]

So does increased shield stun mean that, for example, Marth gets better? Making his moves much safer on shield and perhaps more combos?

Just curious.

 

[Ulevo]

I do not know if you could before with Yoshi, but you cannot shield drop or act out of shield at all versus Lucario's Aura Sphere or Yoshi's down air. There might be other instances where this has some importance.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Falcon has a momentum change in side-b, and it does 9% instead of 8% ground and 8% instead of 7% air.

So, if the momentum changes are only for side-b 3, does that mean they fixed the Raptor Roost Glitch?

 

[GeneralLedge]

I imagine any heavy hitting or rapid-fire moves will keep sheilds held up longer.

If "heavy hitting" is truly a part of it, all the heavy-weight characters just won the lottery.

EDIT: Forgot Aura Sphere hits rapidly when charging. Point still stands if stronger moves deal more shield stun, though.

 

[GP2]

So does increased shield stun mean that, for example, Marth gets better? Making his moves much safer on shield and perhaps more combos?

Just curious.

I want to say yes. They essentially nerfed marth because the new shield mechanics made him too broken.

 

[FlynnCL]

While most of the fighter changes were underwhelming, this more than makes up for it.

Aura Sphere charge on shield is absolutely hilarious.

 

[Ambler]

Increase sheildstun? interesting.
Can someone do some tests into shield health too? me and my brother both commented that Ness' PK Fire was doing a lot more shield damage than normal right after the update and according to the datamined stuff the damage remains the same, but I haven't seen anyone else talking about it.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I do not know if you could before with Yoshi, but you cannot shield drop or act out of shield at all versus Lucario's Aura Sphere or Yoshi's down air. There might be other instances where this has some importance.

It's thankfully not a thing for Yoshi, it's apparently everyone due to shield stun changes.
http://smashboards.com/threads/magical-engimatic-land-1-1-1-patch-notes.419067/page-9#post-20220207

 

[GeneralLedge]

Just to clarify: Do these changes to shield stun affect perfect shielding? My hype from previous posts relies on PS'ing being brought down the scale.

 

[HoodsxX]

Someone should mention that you can't jump, roll, or drop shield against Lucario's Neutral B move anymore... Forced to SDI it insanely unless you want to be shield broken 100% of the time...

 

[Anijunkie]

Just went into training with Lucina. No damage changes whatsoever. Haven't tested shield damage, just overall percent damage. Used kuroganehammer as a reference point. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Lucina

 

[q_e_d]

So does increased shield stun mean that, for example, Marth gets better? Making his moves much safer on shield and perhaps more combos?

Just curious.

Basically, attacking a shield is now safer for every character.
Characters who benefit most from this change are those who have attacks that were possible but hard to punish before, those attacks should now be safe on some characters who could punish them before, and others can only get less significant punishes.
I don't know Marth well, but this could very well apply to him.

 

[David Viran]

Just to clarify: Do these changes to shield stun affect perfect shielding? My hype from previous posts relies on PS'ing being brought down the scale.

Well PS before always had the shield stun before so I would assume it does.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Extra shieldstun means campier meta. Have you seen Brawl Minus Luigi and what he did under 64 levels of shield stun? That was an extremely campy meta because nobody in the right mind wanted to approach and be forced to shield.

Increased Shield Stun is easily the worst thought out change that they could have possibly done for this game.

I think this is largely determinant on how much shieldstun they've actually added. We don't really have a number yet but if it's really slight than IDK, cause this game had less shieldstun than Brawl initially IIRC

I agree that too much shieldstun would wreck this game but I have to evaluate and measure how much has been actually added first.

 

[Valamway]

Extra shieldstun means campier meta. Have you seen Brawl Minus Luigi and what he did under 64 levels of shield stun? That was an extremely campy meta because nobody in the right mind wanted to approach and be forced to shield.

Increased Shield Stun is easily the worst thought out change that they could have possibly done for this game.

Making shields less powerful and making attacks safer means a campier, more defensive meta?
That's a new one.

 

[Ulevo]

It's thankfully not a thing for Yoshi, it's apparently everyone due to shield stun changes.
http://smashboards.com/threads/magical-engimatic-land-1-1-1-patch-notes.419067/page-9#post-20220207

I am aware, I am just pointing out the specific abuse cases where this is relevant.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Hmm, I double checked this as well and you're certainly correct (5 instances = 40%). The mystery of what's now 1.5% I wonder?

Fox's lasers from down throw do 1.5% each (he shoots 4 lasers total), doing 7% total damage. Before the patch the total damage was 9%.
- The face percentage values I got doing down throw was 1 > 3 > 4 > 6 > 7
- I played the game at 1/4 Hold Speed and found that Fox shoots 4 lasers doing 1.5% each then the opponent takes 1% and gets knocked away.

His other throws remain untouched from what I see, and I see someone complaining about Fox's jabs being changed again on the Fox boards but I'm pretty sure that's just placebo or something