Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[q_e_d]

Increased Shield Stun is easily the worst thought out change that they could have possibly done for this game.

It just means you can't punish quite as many options as before simply by shielding. This means that if you want to hit your opponent, actually attacking is now better than standing in shield. Not sure how that would make the game more defensive...

 

[Effay]

Quick, someone test Shiek, I really hope she was nerfed HARD

I hope she wasn't. :C

 

[TheWozny]

The Samus boards agree that at higher percents, Jab 1 sends opponents farther away out of jab 2 range, but also at a range where they can't quickly attack her in between jabs.

 

[PHP]

This is unrelated but I think air dodging and spot dodging have more lag at the end. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Dantarion]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/144-to-160/
Are you guys seeing global shieldstun changes? I can look in the data for that

 

[HoodsxX]

Welp... Link = (Bombs now explode on shield; It used to bounce before). https://twitter.com/gazer2014/status/649222545107873793

 

[Lil Puddin]

Edit:

This post was reserved for Marth changes. I fell for the placebo.

He apparently wasn't changed at all except for a Shield Breaker shield damage nerf. So now it's... just a kill move? What was the point of that? It's literally named after its ability to break shields. They should have focused on fixing his moveset.

• He has many blind spots due to missing frames and small hitboxes (both jabs, ftilt, utilt, fsmash, fair, uair, dair, up b).
• He has bad moves (Dash Attack, Dsmash, and DB1) that need attention.
• Dancing Blade doesn't connect properly (DB2 goes right under their feet).
• His throws don't do enough damage and his "combo" throws have the combination of too much knockback and too much end lag for follow-ups.
• His autocancel windows are crap.

This isn't even the half of it. He's still a character that while heavily buffed compared to 1.0.0, relies way too much on kill power and rage. Maybe next patch.

: Yeah. Nothing's worse than relying on pure kill power to get anything done. I mean, the only way it could absolutely be worse is if you had predictable aerial movements, no approaches, laggy kill moves - half of which require precision and reads, and slow movement... All while being super horrible at the niche you're supposed to be in! Phew. I'm glad nobody has that. Because that character would just be AWFUL and on the lowest tier.
: **** outta here, Sheik.
: ty I feel better now.
: *puts on wig and equips a different sword*
: And me as well!

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Looks like perfect shields were changed too. Originally all they did was negate pushback, shield damage, and let you skip shield drop frames. Now they reduce the amount of shieldstun you take too.

Link's Spin Attack shieldstun goes from 11 -> 8.

Link's Jab 1 and Jab 2 shieldstun goes from 4 -> 3.

Link's Jab 3 shieldstun goes from 5 -> 4.

...someone help me figure out a formula for this, testing every single move's frame advantage on perfect shield is gonna end up a huge pain.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Making shields less powerful and making attacks safer means a campier, more defensive meta?
That's a new one.

When shields suck for dealing with zoning safely, how do you even approach vs super mobile or campy characters?

Good players will simply elect to space more safely than they already do.

Good example: Brawl Minus Luigi under 64 levels of shield stun. Nobody ever wanted to approach and be forced to shield.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Welp... Link = (Bombs now explode on shield; It used to bounce before). https://twitter.com/gazer2014/status/649222545107873793

Good for Link, but if this also affects Toon Link this could completely kill the character. Has anyone tested Toon Link's bombs?

 

[Valamway]

Welp... Link = (Bombs now explode on shield; It used to bounce before). https://twitter.com/gazer2014/status/649222545107873793

I don't think that bomb touched the shield; it hit the floor.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Welp... Link = (Bombs now explode on shield; It used to bounce before). https://twitter.com/gazer2014/status/649222545107873793

This is false. They still bounce on shield. Only reason that worked is that it bounced off the shield and then hit the ground, which caused it to explode.

 

[thehard]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/144-to-160/
Are you guys seeing global shieldstun changes? I can look in the data for that

I see rolls and airdodges universally went down some value by one frame? (ESCAPEB and ESCAPEAIR internally)

Another invincibility nerf? Shaya

 

[Nights Owl]

So I guess with the Shield Stun changes, rapid jabs will improve too? I swear people have just rolled out of them before.
I know R-Jabs get pushback after a while, but it seems like they could be decent for shield pressure now? Unless I'm a dunce.

Edit: Yep. https://vine.co/v/eawF5zWXzUE
That looks a bit crazy.

 

[Horseketchup]

Extra shieldstun means campier meta. Have you seen Brawl Minus Luigi and what he did under 64 levels of shield stun? That was an extremely campy meta because nobody in the right mind wanted to approach and be forced to shield.

Increased Shield Stun is easily the worst thought out change that they could have possibly done for this game.

I don't follow Brawl minus, but I don't see how making every attack safer on shield would lead to a campier meta. Increased shieldstun should lead to shields shutting down less approaches, allowing players to directly challenge shields more easily. I like Smash 4 but my main issue has been that shield is too safe, so yes to me this is the best thing they could've done.

 

[iceman9746]

Omg if that shield change is universal, then I think Yoshi dair became an actual threat to shields now.

As if it already wasn't?

 

[Valamway]

Good example: Brawl Minus Luigi under 64 levels of shield stun. Nobody ever wanted to approach and be forced to shield.

How is that a good example?
It's so niche and so far removed from actual core Smash play that I have no idea what you're talking about.

Even for playing keep away, shields were the safest option.
I can't think of a character that will be able to outcamp Ganondorf now that couldn't before...

 

[inphinitii]

Looks like perfect shields were changed too. Originally all they did was negate pushback, shield damage, and let you skip shield drop frames. Now they reduce the amount of shieldstun you take too.

Link's Spin Attack shieldstun goes from 11 -> 8.

Link's Jab 1 and Jab 2 shieldstun goes from 4 -> 3.

Link's Jab 3 shieldstun goes from 5 -> 4.

...someone help me figure out a formula for this, testing every single move's frame advantage on perfect shield is gonna end up a huge pain.

Seems like it takes off only 25% of the shield stun.

 

[Boney]

The Samus boards agree that at higher percents, Jab 1 sends opponents farther away out of jab 2 range, but also at a range where they can't quickly attack her in between jabs.

Uhm no? Only two guys including you said that..

 

[Shaya]

LordWilliam1234

The shield stun values you have, are on average +1 higher than what I expect them to be.
Shield stun I thought rounded down (floor) rather than up (ceiling) but a lot of the values you're providing on older ones is ceiling. But otherwise hmmmm

Also dantarion's link is already dead?blahahahh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't follow Brawl minus, but I don't see how making every attack safer on shield would lead to a campier meta. Increased shieldstun should lead to shields shutting down less approaches, allowing players to directly challenge shields more easily. I like Smash 4 but my main issue has been that shield is too safe, so yes to me this is the best thing they could've done.

It becomes more campy because good players simply will refuse to put themselves in positions where they're forced to shield, meaning they will run away, spam projectiles more, or simply wait for you to commit before going to town.

So thus, Sheik went up a tier. She can both run away, projectile camp, and space extremely safely and rarely needs to shield.

 

[Sinister Slush]

As if it already wasn't?

Not really no.
If people were too silly to just simply hit him when doing a rising dair offstage or shielding on a platform, the worst it'd do is shieldpoke eventually to get 3/4%
With the change, it keeps them stuck in shield longer afterwards and allows him to breathe on the shield now even during his landing lag from dair to break it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

When shields suck for dealing with zoning safely, how do you even approach vs super mobile or campy characters?

Good players will simply elect to space more safely than they already do.

Good example: Brawl Minus Luigi under 64 levels of shield stun. Nobody ever wanted to approach and be forced to shield.

Slow/big characters get ruined by high shield stun. What is Bowser supposed to do to approach if he can't run up and shield?

 

[Valamway]

Slow/big characters get ruined by high shield stun. What is Bowser supposed to do to approach if he can't run up and shield?

Run up and throw out hitboxes?
What a novel idea.

 

[Shaya]

My current formula that seems somewhat accurate with the range of values I have thus far from Link:
No certainty but:

Shield Stun = floor(damage/1.8) + 3

from damage/2.56

Damage    Expected Stun    New Stun    Assumption
2.5    1.025390625    4        4.4583333333
4    1.5625            5        5.3333333333
5    2.05078125    5        5.9166666667
8    3.125    7        7.6666666667
9    3.515625    8        8.25
10    3.90625    8        8.8333333333
11    4.296875    9        9.4166666667
13    5.078125    10        10.5833333333
14    5.46875    11        11.1666666667

Oh yeah this also assumes moves are being tested fresh; in other words damage being 5% higher.

 

[TheWozny]

Uhm no? Only two guys including you said that..

Excuse my mistake.

People on the Samus board believe that the first hit of her Jab has increased knockback at higher percents.

 

[Horseketchup]

My current formula that seems somewhat accurate with the range of values I have thus far from Link:
No certainty but:

Shield Stun = floor(damage/1.8) + 3

from damage/2.56

Move Damage Expected Stun New Stun Old Stun!?
Link Jab1 / 2 2.5 1.025390625 4
4.4583333333
Usmash 1 4 1.5625 5 2 5.3333333333
Bair1 4 1.5625 4 2 5.3333333333
Link Jab 3 5 2.05078125 5
5.9166666667
Fair1 8 3.125 7 4 7.6666666667
Utilt 9 3.515625 8 4 8.25
Fair2 10 3.90625 8 4 8.8333333333
Dtilt 11 4.296875 9 5 9.4166666667
Ftilt 13 5.078125 10 6 10.5833333333
Dash attack 14 5.46875 11 6 11.1666666667

Whoa....if this is even close to true then we now have have higher than Melee levels of shieldstun

:O

A 10% attack in Melee: (10 + 4.45) / 2.235 = 6 frames of shieldstun


A 10% attack in Smash 4: (10 / 1.8) + 3 = 8 frames of shieldstun

 

[Crazc]

: Yeah. Nothing's worse than relying on pure kill power to get anything done. I mean, the only way it could absolutely be worse is if you had predictable aerial movements, no approaches, laggy kill moves - half of which require precision and reads, and slow movement... All while being super horrible at the niche you're supposed to be in! Phew. I'm glad nobody has that. Because that character would just be AWFUL and on the lowest tier.

literally my character

 

[Ghostbone]

More shield stun doesn't make the game more aggressive. (64 shields are worthless, and that game is incredibly campy)
Shield is like the best approach in this game, now it's slightly worse

 

[jmanup85]

This isn't very good, like, at all. I hope that math is wrong ( no offense Shaya )

 

[GeneralLedge]

It becomes more campy because good players simply will refuse to put themselves in positions where they're forced to shield, meaning they will run away, spam projectiles more, or simply wait for you to commit before going to town.

Guess people'll have to learn how to punish campers, now.

 

[Valamway]

More shield stun doesn't make the game more aggressive. (64 shields are worthless, and that game is incredibly campy)
Shield is like the best approach in this game, now it's slightly worse

You and the Brawl Minus guy are pointing at 64 shieldstun as if this engine change puts the game anywhere near that level.

It doesn't.
This game had more powerful shields than any other Smash, and this change makes them less safe, not unsafe.

 

[Shaya]

This isn't very good, like, at all. I hope that math is wrong ( no offense Shaya )

None taken... this is quite drastic...

You and the Brawl Minus guy are pointing at 64 shieldstun as if this engine change puts the game anywhere near that level.

It doesn't.
This game had more powerful shields than any other Smash, and this change makes them less safe, not unsafe.

Brawl shields were probably better for their shorter lock frames.

 

[Scootch]

Are these all of the changes? Or are these just the ones we know about right now?

 

[Zage]

This game had more powerful shields than any other Smash, and this change makes them less safe, not unsafe.

This 100%, and imo It isn't even a bad thing considering how strong and polarizing shield grab is. Sitting in shield could be a dangerous option now.

 

[Tinkerer]

Misc changes:
The Wii Fit stage now occasionally uses the British voice in the American version, and the American voice in the English European version.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Run up and throw out hitboxes?
What a novel idea.

Doesn't work vs. projectiles. Also risky because Bowser isn't Sheik and has actual endlag. Grapplers need strong shields.

 

[Dantarion]

Also dantarion's link is already dead?blahahahh.

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/144-to-160

 

[Meru.]

This game had more powerful shields than any other Smash, and this change makes them less safe, not unsafe.

Shields had slightly lower hitstun in Brawl and shieldgrabs were waaay better in Brawl.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Whoa....if this is even close to true then we now have have higher than Melee levels of shieldstun

:O

A 10% attack in Melee: (10 + 4.45) / 2.235 = 6 frames of shieldstun


A 10% attack in Smash 4: (10 / 1.8) + 3 = 8 frames of shieldstun

This is approaching critical levels of horrible horrible ideas. Oh dear lawd.