M2K stuff about Marth (big update first post)

[User33]

I just have one question M2K: What exactly did you want in Brawl?

You don't care about Subspace, Events, Stage Builder, Target Test, etc like you said already
You can't play online
You don't care about new characters because you just play Marth
You don't care about items, or really about stages.

So all you care about is gameplay. So you hate that any techniques are lost, and don't like the changes in the physics.

So pretty much, you wanted Brawl to be exactly like Melee. Not even Melee 2.0. Melee 1.0. Now that that's become clear, why did you even buy Brawl, knowing full well that you just wanted Melee with no changes?

 

[Aesir]

I just have one question M2K: What exactly did you want in Brawl?

You don't care about Subspace, Events, Stage Builder, Target Test, etc like you said already
You can't play online
You don't care about new characters because you just play Marth
You don't care about items, or really about stages.

So all you care about is gameplay. So you hate that any techniques are lost, and don't like the changes in the physics.

So pretty much, you wanted Brawl to be exactly like Melee. Not even Melee 2.0. Melee 1.0. Now that that's become clear, why did you even buy Brawl, knowing full well that you just wanted Melee with no changes?

Do you read? cause thats not what m2k has been saying at all.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I just have one question M2K: What exactly did you want in Brawl?

You don't care about Subspace, Events, Stage Builder, Target Test, etc like you said already
You can't play online
You don't care about new characters because you just play Marth
You don't care about items, or really about stages.

So all you care about is gameplay. So you hate that any techniques are lost, and don't like the changes in the physics.

So pretty much, you wanted Brawl to be exactly like Melee. Not even Melee 2.0. Melee 1.0. Now that that's become clear, why did you even buy Brawl, knowing full well that you just wanted Melee with no changes?

Why should you even care?! You should be grateful that he's still helping you, despite all that!

 

[Chexr]

Hah helping. Right

 

[J.L]

who does azen use in brawl? Also, who else besides toon link and Marth do you see as being top tier? possibly Sonic? ahha

 

[spoonyd]

I don't think Pit is getting enough credit yet even tho Marth still seems better. He's just too good and likely to be at the top at least at the beginning. First few tourneys will prolly feature a LOT of Marth dittoing.

 

[thumbswayup]

azen uses ike, he also says ike is too good so expect him to be top tier.

 

[NJzFinest]

User33, please leave this thread.

Come back when you are literate and capable of typing insightful posts.

Thanks in advice.

 

[J.L]

no way... i thought marth can gimp Ikes recovery easily. How come m2k keeps saying his marth got *****.

 

[Miggz]

I just have one question M2K: What exactly did you want in Brawl?

You don't care about Subspace, Events, Stage Builder, Target Test, etc like you said already
You can't play online
You don't care about new characters because you just play Marth
You don't care about items, or really about stages.

So all you care about is gameplay. So you hate that any techniques are lost, and don't like the changes in the physics.

So pretty much, you wanted Brawl to be exactly like Melee. Not even Melee 2.0. Melee 1.0. Now that that's become clear, why did you even buy Brawl, knowing full well that you just wanted Melee with no changes?

Its not a matter of making Brawl exactly like melee. Its the fact that they didn't ADD IN any new tactics along with the tactics in melee. I mean, not only did they take out everything but as of now, it seems like they didn't add in anything new. Kinda like giving someone lemonade with no sugar and no ice. That is what is bugging some ppl. And besides, who cares if he or anyone else don't like it as much? Just play what you like. You can't call him a hater cause he is remaining quite loyal to the smash community...so please think b4 u jump into some next level assumptions. =/

 

[dragonslayingmarth]

Yet another opinion by a person whose had his hands on brawl (for 2 weeks now 30-40 hours of gameplay with all characters) and I'm above average in melee if I do say so myself.

So far, I have to agree with most all of what m2k says ABOUT the game. Combos are almost non-existent besides the 2-3 instant jab combos every character has. Most 'combos' I've done on my friend have just been juggles wherein I hit him with some launcher or up-air and just wait on the stage until he comes down, it has become extremely hard to do follow-ups in terms of aerial combos (which imo was what made the physics/engine of melee so fun, so sporadic, yet so fluid). The reason why many players so far aren't very satisfied with the competitiveness of brawl, me included, is because so many elements that made melee a great competitive game have been taken out. But alas imo the game isn't 'terrible' as m2k said, as for me it is still extremely addicting/fun. However only time and the smash community will tell if brawl lives up to the competitive gaming excellence that was melee (strong community ~ strong game are very 'strongly' correlated read october,2007 post http://jchensor.blogspot.com/ )

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Hah helping. Right

Uhhh..... Mew2King's post was one of the most informative in all the Brawl boards and the most informative in the Brawl Marth boards, and you are belittling his help? You claim that this isn't helpful? You say that the countless hours that Mew2King will most likely put into this game won't help us?

The cheek of some people.

 

[Count Alphez]

read the first post. impressive sounding.

i dont have the time for all these custom combo moves people have worked out. signature moves and what not. if your good, you'll win, if your not, youll lose. you shouldnt be able to make up some ridiculous lingo to explain marth combos, most of these dont work in the real person vs person fights, even if you can think and act fluently enough to pull them off.

PS, i'd like to add, after reading the above posts. impressive and insightful as M2K's post is. i'll be the first to say that the vast majority of it is not helpful. in fact, in real battle circumstances, it is totally useless. great for fun and testing out some interesting moves. but for a fighting game like SSBB... useless, totally

 

[User33]

They didn't add in any new techniques Miggz? First read the advanced tactics sticky, and then remember that the game has been out for two weeks. Then realize that its way to early to say that.

Also, quote from M2K from gamefaqs:

i play it cuz everyone else is, that's the main reason. If people just stuck with melee id be much happier

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

read the first post. impressive sounding.

i dont have the time for all these custom combo moves people have worked out. signature moves and what not. if your good, you'll win, if your not, youll lose. you shouldnt be able to make up some ridiculous lingo to explain marth combos, most of these dont work in the real person vs person fights, even if you can think and act fluently enough to pull them off.

PS, i'd like to add, after reading the above posts. impressive and insightful as M2K's post is. i'll be the first to say that the vast majority of it is not helpful. in fact, in real battle circumstances, it is totally useless. great for fun and testing out some interesting moves. but for a fighting game like SSBB... useless, totally

Biggest nonsense post in these boards.

 

[Ryan-K]

Biggest nonsense post in these boards.

QFT, lol that was really bad.

How is connecting several moves in a fighting game and know how they act useless are you mentally challenged or something?

Like seriously count whatever the hell your name is have you done ANYTHING competitive in your life ever? It could be 3rd strike volleyball checkers or barbie's horse adventure or something but I doubt you have ever competed in anything serious in your life considering your attitude, lmao.

 

[Miggz]

They didn't add in any new techniques Miggz? First read the advanced tactics sticky, and then remember that the game has been out for two weeks. Then realize that its way to early to say that.

Also, quote from M2K from gamefaqs:

*sighs* They don't seem to have any "next level/advanced" technique yet, which is what I mean. The footstool thing is cool, but there isn't anything (as of now) that can separate the wicked players from the noobs/meh players. Then again, I read somewhere the creators made the game like that on purpose. But anyway, point is, if there truly is a technique out there , what could it possible be? Taunt cancel? See what I mean? Its just hard to imagine an ultra wicked technique in brawl. What else is there? But like I said, I don't care anymore. Brawl is mad fun to play and I enjoy it, so no worries here. If i wana do some waveshines or marth combos, I'll play melee. XD

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

*sighs* They don't seem to have any "next level/advanced" technique yet, which is what I mean. The footstool thing is cool, but there isn't anything (as of now) that can separate the wicked players from the noobs/meh players. Then again, I read somewhere the creators made the game like that on purpose. But anyway, point is, if there truly is a technique out there , what could it possible be? Taunt cancel? See what I mean? Its just hard to imagine an ultra wicked technique in brawl. What else is there? But like I said, I don't care anymore. Brawl is mad fun to play and I enjoy it, so no worries here. If i wana do some waveshines or marth combos, I'll play melee. XD

Yeah, I agree. Most of the "advanced" techniques are pretty basic gameplay mechanics, there's little there that seems difficult and nothing that seems as revolutionary as L cancelling or wavedashing.

I can only hope that techniques like that will appear in the course of Brawl's lifespan.

 

[Mr.C]

I want you to want me
I need you to need me
I love you to love me
I'm begging you to beg me

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah, I agree. Most of the "advanced" techniques are pretty basic gameplay mechanics, there's little there that seems difficult and nothing that seems as revolutionary as L cancelling or wavedashing.

I can only hope that techniques like that will appear in the course of Brawl's lifespan.

L canceling isn't that revolutionary since it was in SSB64 and is a very easy thing to use since it is used all the time and is not situational.
Now on wavedashing I can understand and even then remember that for some characters it wasn't a viable option.

 

[BentoBox]

Its not a matter of making Brawl exactly like melee. Its the fact that they didn't ADD IN any new tactics along with the tactics in melee. I mean, not only did they take out everything but as of now, it seems like they didn't add in anything new. Kinda like giving someone lemonade with no sugar and no ice. That is what is bugging some ppl. And besides, who cares if he or anyone else don't like it as much? Just play what you like. You can't call him a hater cause he is remaining quite loyal to the smash community...so please think b4 u jump into some next level assumptions. =/

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145529

Most of said tactics in melee were not intended by the developers. You're giving ssbm devs undeserved praise. Or rather, you're praising their lack of foresight, nothing else. With the amount of time SSBB's devs spent on the game, it was pretty obvious years before playing the game that all of those would be gone.

 

[IrArby]

I think we were expecting their "foresight" to extend far enough to realize that those glitch tactics were important to pretty much everyone on these boards and alot more besides. So if you really want to nag and analyze every little thing someone posts, than were actually PISSED that they DIDN'T have the foresight to see what they were doing by changing Brawl so much without adding (as Miggz said) any lumps of sugar.

And without that extra sugar Brawl just won't be as sweet as it could be. lol But by all acounts its still very sweet!

 

[BentoBox]

I think we were expecting their "foresight" to extend far enough to realize that those glitch tactics were important to pretty much everyone on these boards and alot more besides. So if you really want to nag and analyze every little thing someone posts, than were actually PISSED that they DIDN'T have the foresight to see what they were doing by changing Brawl so much without adding (as Miggz said) any lumps of sugar.

And without that extra sugar Brawl just won't be as sweet as it could be. lol But by all acounts its still very sweet!

Are you that self-centered to think that this game was actually built with competitive players in mind? That they would care enough about the 0.01% of the fanbase would scream and cry in outrage for all these exploits to be left in (which would basically constitute bad design since they were aware of it this time around) ? I'll say it again, our SSBM is not the game they designed. They didn't lack foresight this time around, your mistake was to believe that they had any from the very start.

Check the link.

And the fact that Lag canceling was in both of the previous installments doesn't say anything about the designers' intent in actually having such a feature in the game. SSBM was rushed and had a pre-mature launch, everybody knows that. It was in Brawl's beta phase as well, through different means, and was consequently removed. Stop thinking you know.

edit: Yes, I do acknowledge Brawl's problems, but to have expected anything more (though there is still room for improvement) was foolish.

 

[J.L]

Can someone tell me how to gimp Ike's recovery with Marth? You just counter on the ledge when he tries to get back?

 

[Mr.C]

Can someone tell me how to gimp Ike's recovery with Marth? You just counter on the ledge when he tries to get back?

If hes forced to quick draw just jump in front of him before he gets to the edge. You can also counter if he goes above the edge when using Aether.

 

[Miggz]

Are you that self-centered to think that this game was actually built with competitive players in mind?

And the fact that Lag canceling was in both of the previous installments doesn't say anything about the designers' intent in actually having such a feature in the game.

edit: Yes, I do acknowledge Brawl's problems, but to have expected anything more (though there is still room for improvement) was foolish.

I read your link. Thanks for showing that to me, it did help clear up allot of things. But, some things didn't make all that much sense. What I'm about to say is a real question by the way. lol Are you saying that when developers make their games they just release it and months later pretend it doesn't even exist? Cause that is the impression I got reading that post. How could the developers NOT know about players taking their game to another world of play? That is like sending a computerized camera in space and not even bother to look at the pictures it took when it returns to earth 7 years later. I'll admit that since youtube didn't exist back then keeping up with their game might have been harder, but at the end of the day, there is NO excuse for the developers. Possible "glitches" from their game is only a google away. Keep in mind I'm not saying you are wrong, but I find it funny that developers were clueless bout these things. If some random guy who lives in the middle of the Atlantic on a small island who became the skilled smasher he is because he took the initiative to research advanced techs, then I can't see how the very own creators couldn't do so.

Now onto the quotes I selected of yours. I'm sorry but your first comment killed me. How does that make that person selfish? When making a fighting game of course you have to keep the competitive players in mind. This isn't a one player game like Final Fantasy. A game should have strict variables which can accurately determine a winner in the end., especially a fighting game. Can't put it any simpler.

This next quote, to me is not stupid but it isn't too smart either. There are 3 smash games in total, the first 2 having canceling. Although you're right in the sense that technically (heh tech, irony) canceling doesn't have to be in the next one, but its far from stupid to make such an assumption. If you take a series of math courses, you expect to learn bout add/subtract/multiplication/division. You go onto the next level of math (1i.e. melee) and you encounter the exact same things, shouldn't shock you. But when you get to the next level math class, (Brawl) what do you expect to learn/see, Latin? No! You expect the add sub ect. To me, same thing with smash (math) there are certain things you expect to see as you move on to different levels. My point? Yes, you are right that there is no point stating this, but its still very logical to expect it.

You're last line takes the cake, hell the bakery! But I won't bore you with a rant about that one. Keep in mind I'm not pissed or anything. I still enjoyed/learned quite a bit from your post. =)

 

[BentoBox]

1. I read your link. Thanks for showing that to me, it did help clear up allot of things. But, some things didn't make all that much sense. What I'm about to say is a real question by the way. lol Are you saying that when developers make their games they just release it and months later pretend it doesn't even exist? Cause that is the impression I got reading that post. How could the developers NOT know about players taking their game to another world of play? That is like sending a computerized camera in space and not even bother to look at the pictures it took when it returns to earth 7 years later. I'll admit that since youtube didn't exist back then keeping up with their game might have been harder, but at the end of the day, there is NO excuse for the developers. Possible "glitches" from their game is only a google away. Keep in mind I'm not saying you are wrong, but I find it funny that developers were clueless bout these things. If some random guy who lives in the middle of the Atlantic on a small island who became the skilled smasher he is because he took the initiative to research advanced techs, then I can't see how the very own creators couldn't do so.

2. Now onto the quotes I selected of yours. I'm sorry but your first comment killed me. How does that make that person selfish? When making a fighting game of course you have to keep the competitive players in mind. This isn't a one player game like Final Fantasy. A game should have strict variables which can accurately determine a winner in the end., especially a fighting game. Can't put it any simpler.

3. This next quote, to me is not stupid but it isn't too smart either. There are 3 smash games in total, the first 2 having canceling. Although you're right in the sense that technically (heh tech, irony) canceling doesn't have to be in the next one, but its far from stupid to make such an assumption. If you take a series of math courses, you expect to learn bout add/subtract/multiplication/division. You go onto the next level of math (1i.e. melee) and you encounter the exact same things, shouldn't shock you. But when you get to the next level math class, (Brawl) what do you expect to learn/see, Latin? No! You expect the add sub ect. To me, same thing with smash (math) there are certain things you expect to see as you move on to different levels. My point? Yes, you are right that there is no point stating this, but its still very logical to expect it.

4. You're last line takes the cake, hell the bakery! But I won't bore you with a rant about that one. Keep in mind I'm not pissed or anything. I still enjoyed/learned quite a bit from your post. =)

1. I did not say they didn't know about the extent to which we abused those exploits. What I'm saying is that even if they knew about them, unless they were playing competitively themselves or closely watched the scene and the way it developed as well as kept in touch with the community itself and their thoughts about the game, then they'd have no idea about the importance and significance of these exploits for our community. FPSs and other fighting games do not rely as much on exploits to be considered playable on a competitive scale, why would developers want to come to such conclusions? To realize that the game they designed (which is not what we're playing) was deemed bad by the mass (see M2K's "we need WD in brawl thread). And then comes the issue of actually justifying the implementation or rather leaving untouched exploits that they became aware about as a designer. That alone could hurt his image, regardless of what this community wants.

2-3. What makes you believe that the smash series were intended to be highly competitive and not simple party games such as Mario Kart, Mario Party, Goldeneye, etc? This is Nintendo. And I don't see how Brawl's current state doesn't allow for determining a highly skilled player from a bad one. And we've already proven that whatever it is that they intend on designing, we'd take their games to greater heights. There was thus no reason for them to implement anything counter-intuitive such as l-canceling. Again, we do not know if they were meant to be in the game in the first place. Assuming can sometimes be justified but claiming to be right when there is an uncertainty cannot. Unless your name is in the credits, all of this is mere speculation.

4. To have expected Melee 2.0 was foolish because of the aforementioned reasons.

The problem is that M2K knew more about SSBM than Hal.

 

[IrArby]

The game wasn't marketed exclusively or even mainly to competitive players but you can't deny that its the competitive players that have kept melee popular for the last 7 years. Sure people would still play it but doesn't smashboards have the largest online gaming community? Is that not a testament to the accomplishments of competitive smashers? So don't you think that the Nintendo would consider the largest competitive gaming community when they do the next installment of Smash? (Insert "Yes" here) You make a good point about the reputation issue with "bad developing" by leaving the glitches in. I have a very recent version of Melee where certain glitches aren't possible. It sucks but from a reputable standpoint taking them out is like a preemptive defense against would-be critics.

And once again, back to the foresight issue. They obviously did not have much foresight becuase the players who will keep Brawl popular (competitive smashers) aren't happy with everything in Brawl as it stands. And its obvisously important to keep brawl popular because
A. lots of people who don't have Wiis yet will be clamoring for Brawl once they do.
B. Brawl's popularity amongst the players encourages more people to buy that Wii and the game and
C. If this games is only cool for a year than Nintendo loses alot of credibility. Since this is one of the most anticipated games ever I don't think Nintendo would want to dissapoint.

So, to what you said: yes competitive smashers aren't Nintendo's main audience and yes I am selfcentered for wanting a really kick *** game with in-depth play. In all fairness I think most of us are a little upset (some more than others) at Nintendo. Thats our common ground. The real argument here is whether or not you or I believe that Nintendo cares that were not happy. I say yes, you say no.

 

[BentoBox]

The community is always the one making the last judgment. The devs would not guess by themselves that Brawl will, supposedly, not be played 6 years from now because of this. And I don't blame them. Sakurai's getting nothing but praise by all the critics. The game is a masterpiece to the eye of the casual. The only people that are unhappy are the hardcore players that couldn't be satisfied either way because what they demand was deemed (or could be) unreasonable. But really, the competitive scene won't die because of that. It could very well be alive 6 years from now, all you need are dedicated players to host events worth investing time into, and I don't believe we'll be running short any time soon. I don't think that the actual intensity of the competitiveness is much of a concern to the developers either, as long as it lives on. The ball is on our camp.

 

[greenblob]

Off-topic: Z-canceling was in the official online manual for Smash64. Also, "exploit" is a loaded term. Almost anything can be called an "exploit."

On-topic: Does the ledge-hop bair edgeguard work? Since it's much better to recover from below the stage now, I'd think that the bair edgeguard would be much more important.

 

[BentoBox]

WDing needed to exist else dodging into the ground would get us stuck in it. Even now, WDing is still there, but they had to change the engine itself to make it less abusable (exploitable).

Didn't know about z-canceling, I stand corrected =o.

 

[Warlock*G]

WDing needed to exist else dodging into the ground would get us stuck in it. Even now, WDing is still there, but they had to change the engine itself to make it less abusable (exploitable).

Didn't know about z-canceling, I stand corrected =o.

Is Brawl based on an existing engine or is it totally new?

 

[Miggz]

Totally new.

 

[Warlock*G]

So there's no Havoc engine involved, or any of its parts?

 

[NJzFinest]

Off-topic: Z-canceling was in the official online manual for Smash64.

This is true. Only thing was, I would only Z-Cancel Link's Dair because I thought it was the only move needed to be Z-Canceled
Anyways, that's how I realized there was L-canceling in Melee, I simply assumed lag canceling moves would carry over.

 

[Lord Knight]

And this is why you shouldn't post **** here Jason. Everyone here is being really immature.

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^^This

90% of the people in this thread have posted incoherent trash and acted as if this is a complaint thread.

 

[Miggz]

Yeah, its funny how this topic totally went overboard.

 

[h1roshi]

i dont care for marth but an interesting and informative post nonetheless...peace

-hiro

 

[thumbswayup]

i think it's WAY too early to make these judgements on brawl. it was obvious from the start nothing would ever come close to replacing melee, so just accept it and move on. it's not like you can do anything about the game now anyway. if it pisses you off that much, go back to melee. hell, i'd like everyone to play both at a competitive level. but that won't happen so im going to just go all out with brawl and have fun.