Luigi approach options

[OnFullTilt]

Due to Luigi's wavedash which lets him zoom in with any aerial OR grounded move, he is extremely good at approaching his opponent (He has a few other great ways to approach, later in this post). It is, however, easy to use any one approach option so much that it starts becoming predictable and punishable. With that in mind I'd like to compile as many approach options as possible in this thread, and I'd love for everyone to chime in. For the rest of this post, this symbol -> will show that one move should be performed after another. For instance WD -> Dsmash means that you are performing a wavedash immediately into a down smash.

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Wavedash (WD) approaches
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WD -> DSmash: This should be a go to approach option. DSmash is a fast move with good range and damage. In addition it can often be used in combos (against fastfallers you can sometimes DSmash into DSmash, against other characters the Dsmash pops them up an ideal height for an aerial followup). Plus your opponent may be demoralized due to Luigi being able to breakdance better than them.

WD -> FTilt: If you want a fairly safe move to poke your opponent with then look no further. Due to a mixture of speed, damage, and priority it is the best move for tacking on a bit of damage without too much danger. Just be aware that if this move is crouch cancelled you'll probably get punished, at least at low %'s. This move can also be used on someone near the edge to push them well off and put you in an edgeguarding position. This is probably one of the most commonly used moves out of a wavedash. Be aware that it is very important to properly space this move. If the tip of your foot hits their shield there should rarely be a way for them to punish it, but if you get right next to them the endlag of the move will spell your doom. Slightly.

WD -> Grab: Pretty simple but no less effective. If your opponent is shielding or you think they will be, this will get around it. With a WD -> Jab -> Grab you can grab in certain cases where you otherwise couldn't (perhaps if your opponent was also going for a grab, or if they were going for another out of shield option). Due to Luigi's great grab combos any way to land a grab is swell.

With these three mixups alone I believe that you'd have the basic Luigi approach tools (though you should almost definitely throw in Down B, mentioned later in this post). Still, there are legions of other approach methods that will probably improve your game if you incorporate them, such as...

WD -> USmash: Is your opponent above you? Do you think they'll jump, perhaps for a short hop aerial? This approach should be considered if so. Considering that Luigi's head is even invincible during a part of the attack it can sometimes even get your opponent through their attack without you having to resort to trading. Outside of crazy up B combos this is probably Luigi's best way to KO off the top, so it's great for floaties. If you USmash while facing away from your opponent you'll be able to hit them with the very beginning hitboxes of the move. These beginning hitboxes actually have really good horizontal range, and even can hit grounded opponents, which can make it a nice unexpected KO move when used in this reverse fashion.

WD -> FSmash: Situational, but I believe it has its uses. Like Mario's FSmash, Luigi's arm stays right by his side until right before the hitboxes come out, so you can avoid your opponent's attack and then immediately hit them with this strong move. There is also a weird thing you can do where you make the FSmash completely halt your wavedash momentum, which can get you in just the right place for a charged smash hit. Also the chop sound is A tier for sound effects.

WD -> UTilt: Difficult to land due to a somewhat slow startup and odd hitboxes, and I'm not quite sure it's even worth it. If you CAN land it though it makes an excellent combo starter. One way I've found to make it work is to WD from the ledge with invincibility frames right into this move.

WD -> DTilt: I have no experience with this approach, but I've heard it can be used to shield poke. Due to the hefty damage it causes that alone might be worth it.

WD -> Shield OR WD -> Spotdodge: Both serve a somewhat similar purpose as far as I know, basically a way to approach your opponent when you suspect they may attack. WD -> Shield seems safer, as your opponent may not even be trying to attack you. In addition you can often get a shieldgrab if they hit your shield. If you know that your opponent will attack however and you time the spotdodge well in the WD -> Spotdodge option, then you will be able to retaliate without having to worry about shieldstun and shield knockback. One other advantage of WD -> Spotdodge is that it can be used to get right through Ness's grounded PK Fires, which leaves you a free punish due to the grounded PK Fire's large endlag.

WD -> Short hop -> Fair/Bair: Due to the speed and range of these moves they can be great out of a quick wavedash. They are unsafe on shield but there are ways around that. After the Fair/Bair you can waveland away to safety, waveland towards your opponent if you think they'll roll/WD away, or you can use a second Fair/Bair before landing to stuff their out of shield option.

WD -> Dash -> Jump cancelled grab: Like WD -> Grab from above but lets you achieve more precision and/or distance.

WD -> Up B: You've got guts kid. If you get a really good read you can perhaps make this work, but the vast majority of the time (I think) Up B as an attack is more used and simply better for punishment than for approaching. The big risk of this move combined with the low chance that you can hit someone while approaching with this are the reasons for that.

WD -> Misfire: More useful than it may seem. The misfire isn't actually too fast, so getting closer before using it gives your opponent less time to react. Also on short characters if you don't WD towards them you may soar right over their heads.

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Other approach options
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Fireball -> Waveland: This is a bit tough to do, as not only is the timing weird but it's pretty strict as well. It's really good however for a number of reasons. If you want to create space to approach later you can fireball and then waveland away. If you want to close distance somewhat safely you can fireball into a waveland towards your opponent. If they shield the fireball you can grab or jab -> grab. If they clank the fireball with a move just smack em with something (Luigi does have a lot of options).

Down B: A really great move, and another go to approach. It rapidly moves Luigi left/right, clanks with most projectiles, and when it does so you quickly regain control of Luigi. This means that you can use this to advance through projectile spam. It closes distance quite quickly with a lasting hitbox (sorta) so you can hit an opponent from far away, and then if you hit them you can mash b a little to connect with a 2nd hit of Down B, which will then lead perfectly into an aerial that lets you oust your opponent from the stage, which will then give you an edgeguard chance. It can also be used as an unexpected combo starter. It's also fairly safe on shield since if you mash b a bit after hitting a shield you'll usually be high enough where your opponent can't hit you after shield stun.

Dash attack: Please no. This move apparently has some niche uses from what I've heard but using it as an approach option is probably not one of them, due to being one of the most punishable moves in the game. If you know of a good time to approach with this move I'd honestly be very curious to hear it. EDIT: I've read (I believe from Broasty) that this is a great move to use on an opponent who is near the ledge with their shield up, as it will force them off.

Misfire: Usually better as a punish option, but it can work if you get a good read. It's very easy to react to from a distance so make sure it's a REALLY good read unless you're really close to your opponent, as misfire is easy to punish if shielded/reacted to in time.
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Odd trick(s)
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Did you know that you can B reverse things while on the ground? If Luigi wavedashes and then B reverses a fireball while sliding it'll change his momentum just like it does on the ground. This could possibly be good for approaching but probably isn't.

Anyways that's all I can think of for now, though I may edit this post later if I remember something. If I didn't mention something I either didn't remember it or didn't realize it may be important, so feel free to bring it up. Anyways I hope this can be helpful for anyone having trouble with this part of utilizing Luigi. May your shoes be ever buttery!

 

[L9L]

As somebody who's just starting out in PM, this guide has been very helpful to me. Gotta practice up now!

 

[OnFullTilt]

As somebody who's just starting out in PM, this guide has been very helpful to me. Gotta practice up now!

Ah, glad I could help someone! I'm still learning Luigi myself but feel free to ask any intermediate questions.

 

[Broasty]

Good **** OnFullTilt, you covered pretty much everything I was eventually hoping to post about in a future guide! Few notes you and others might be interested in:

It's worth noting shield slides. You can shield slide two ways:
Running Shield Slide (RSS) Start Run->Hold Shield
Wave Dash Shield Slide (WDSS) WD->Hold Shield

Both have their spacing options. Here's a way to look at it:
Opponent doesn't respect you (keeps advancing towards you) and thinks if they can throw out an advancing forward attack, do the RSS if they're closer and WDSS if farther (don't do either to approach if the opponent is too close). If you're put in a bad spot, OOS WD your way outta there to somewhere you want to be (follow them or back off).

Here's your OOS (excluding OOS WD) options (worth noting based off game experience in competitive matches) in order of how often you should be using them:

OOS Grab: You can Chain Grab a large amount of the cast via DThrow (excel sheet coming soon!) and follow up Pummels and later with either an aerial combo or combo finisher. At the end of the day, you come out with your strongest punish. If your grab hitbox touches your opponent the same time as they attack you, you take damage BUT CONTINUE THE GRAB. Always go for the grab unless you either can't, or are going for a combo finisher that you can't land from DThrow because they've gained too much damage (leading to further knockback). Oh also, BThrow is a kill move is done near edge of stage and at higher percents.

OOS SJP (Up Special): Opponent above 75%? In most cases, that means it's about that time to go in for the kill. This is REALLY great with RSS since it punishes Dash Attacks REALLY hard. Only go for this if you know they're gonna die. Otherwise, stick to grab Mr. Swaggatron.

OOS Jump->Aerial Attack: If you're fighting a matchup that you know you can bust out an aerial safely to go for shield pressure and break the shield, go for this (Dair is the best for this). Don't even think about it if you're not 100% sure you'll break that shield because you could've done more damage with the grab.

OOS USmash: Notice how it's last? It's because majority of the time, the opponent will be on the ground and in front of you if you want to use an OOS option. Let's run through situations here:

Opponent in front of you:
Why didn't you grab? Seriously, I can't stress the important of grabbing. Grabbing is faster (Remember the animation, head starts at back, hit box starts, and THEN the head arcs forward) and allows for better combo/punish options.

Opponent above you: First question, can you grab? No. Ok, alright so you can't grab. Are they too low for OOS Jump->UAir->Swagtastic Aerial Combo of death? Yes, so don't you dare screw yourself over and ruin your punish. That means they're in PERFECT position for getting wacked with your head. Go for it. Wait...hold on... this is ALL assuming you JUST blocked their attack using that shield earlier, if you wait even a little to long, the long end lag of the attack will get YOU punished during your own punish.

Opponent behind you: Ask yourself this: How close is the opponent? If they're close enough to get caught by the beginning of the headbutt (study that animation), then do it. If they're too far, go for OOS Jump->Bair and follow up with whatever is right for the time.


One last thing about spacing and approach. If you have an opponent advancing on you and you know they will go for a grab (uh oh especially if we're talking about Shiek) then Dash Backwards->WD Towards Opponent->Pivot Towards Opponent->DSmash. This is a GREAT punish option and should be practiced til it's muscle memory. Also useful on attacks from matchups where you want to AVOID the possibility of a grab at all costs (*cough*Shiek*cough*) and you want to punish an attack OR a grab...whatever the opponent chooses to throw out because they're so fast that you literally don't have the reaction time to react accordingly. Watch Weegee Master Eddie Mexico demonstrate here: http://youtu.be/gVNIMh0CvAk?t=3m14s

Hopefully I can find more practical uses in the field of Momentum Canceled Shields (WD->Dash->Shield stops ALL momentum).

 

[L9L]

@ Broasty , @ OnFullTilt , any advice on how to mitigate Luigi's slipperiness after blocking an attack and then properly punishing? For example, I was playing an Ike yesterday who liked to dash attack. I knew it was punishable but kept getting pushed too far out of range to grab OOS. I tried short hopping forward into Fair or Nair but he kept F tilting me out of the air.

 

[OnFullTilt]

@ Broasty , @ OnFullTilt , any advice on how to mitigate Luigi's slipperiness after blocking an attack and then properly punishing? For example, I was playing an Ike yesterday who liked to dash attack. I knew it was punishable but kept getting pushed too far out of range to grab OOS. I tried short hopping forward into Fair or Nair but he kept F tilting me out of the air.

My general OOS game is a little weak honestly so you should probably focus on Broasty for this one. Usually I get a punish from someone hitting my shield due to me predicting their attack and then sliding into it with either WD->Shield or Dash->shield (which Broasty refers to as "Running Shield Slide (RSS) Start Run->Hold Shield"). As in I purposefully shield while sliding towards them before their attack even comes out. Due to the fact that I was sliding towards them, their attack makes me halt in place instead of being pushed back, leading to an easy punish. If they hit your shield while you are standing still (maybe if you shielded by reaction instead of prediction) then as far as I know you're not likely to get much. If their move is especially laggy you could try WD OOS into something (forward tilt maybe if the lag is small, or a grab perhaps if the lag is larger) but otherwise you may not be able to get anything. Sometimes even when standing still a move will not knock you back very far but it does not seem to be the case with this dash attack from what you've said. Once again, Broasty may know something here that I don't. An alternative is spot dodging the attack instead of shielding it- if you can predict that dash attack consistently (and it seems like maybe you can) then this would give you an extreme punish.

 

[Broasty]

@ Broasty , @ OnFullTilt , any advice on how to mitigate Luigi's slipperiness after blocking an attack and then properly punishing? For example, I was playing an Ike yesterday who liked to dash attack. I knew it was punishable but kept getting pushed too far out of range to grab OOS. I tried short hopping forward into Fair or Nair but he kept F tilting me out of the air.

As OnFullTult said, if you're still, you'll end up sliding. And if you're sliding, you'll become still after taking an attack. Considering the slidy-ness is what gives Luigi an offensive edge...this is the flip side of the coin of being an offensive character: not being defensive. If you know the opponent is going to approach, you need to resort to other means of punishing...in this case of Ike's Dash attack, you're best either doing any the following:

Throw out a fireball in advance to stuff him in case he goes for the Dash Attack. Needs to be in advance, be aware this keeps the game in neutral.

WD Backwards and throw out a fireball during the WD. Ike should be at your mercy if you kept the right spacing during this.

Take the hit with a standing shield (yes I know I said not to, but this IS an option) OOS WD backwards and fireball. Game will turn slightly towards your favor either choice they take (take the fireball by going forward, shield the fireball, or back up and lose spacing). Keep in mind if they choose to shield, they could end up reflecting the fireball on you. Other big possibilities are SHFFL Nairing the fireball while backing up, which would be bad for you if you try to approach without being observant. Or, Countering the fireball to hit you when you're expecting them to do something completely defensive so you end up being hit.

Obviously the second option is your best punish, however you may have noticed it's the hardest to do since your spacing and reaction needs to be perfect....this is pretty much the story of Luigi's life. Space perfectly or perish. Always remember space behind you is super important since it's a means of doing all of these options that AREN'T based on prediction. Try to stay in the middle of stage at all costs...unless you're edge guarding him. And back to what OnFullTilt said, you want to be on the offensive by Sliding towards Ike, not Ike coming to you.

It's also worth noting Ike is a hard matchup for Luigi...most likely the reason StrongBad picked it against me in our money match at CEO lol.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I'd actually put Usmash above Up-B or aerials OoS. In my experience (mostly playing G&W, Kirby, Ganondorf, Lucas, Falcon), I get crossed-up a lot, and at low percents Usmash is basically a higher-damage Dthrow. Also, Luigi's head is invincible for it, so it's got good priority.
I feel really unsafe using aerials OoS, and in particular would rather WD Usmash than Bair.
WD OoS shouldn't be understated. Shield grabs are really good at a certain level, where they become a bad habit that must be broken to progress. Luigi's grease may slide him away a lot, too far for a grab, but he's usually within easy range for a WD U/Dsmash (or grab if you're real sure), which I think is by far his most used option.
Looking at Ike's dash attack in particular, assuming he hits you for the least disadvantage, he'd be on frame 22 and you'll have 6 frames of shieldstun, which leaves you 17 before he can act. WD takes 4 for jumpsquat and 10 for landing, leaving 3 frames to get a hitbox out before he can shield, 6 before he can jab. Luig's Jab is out frame 2, U/Ftilt frame 4 (don't forget down-angled ftilt does 10 extra shield damage), Dsmash/Dtilt/Up-B frame 5, and grab frame 7. A similar option is to jump then Cylcone, which takes 10 frames total.
Shield slides are definitely very important against sword characters, though. That and "slidestepping" (a sliding sidestep) are the best bets for getting in on them. I'd prefer to not play footsies for long against Ike, as he'll get comfortable enough to QD, so I'd rather initiate things with slidesteps until he starts getting suspicious, then start throwing in Dsmashes or something.

 

[L9L]

Good stuff, thanks much for the info, Luigi Nation.

Maybe there is a better place to discuss this, but since it's a logical extension of the approach game I'll ask the question here. So let's say my approach game was solid and I'm putting the heat on with well spaced Bair's. I want to go in for a ground combo. I approach with another Bair, they shield it. I've found myself getting grabbed for the trouble of going in. I feel my Bair's are both low to the ground and well spaced, so I'm thinking it's an issue of not properly following up shield pressure. That, or needing a different approach option altogether.

Once Luigi does get in, how does he best apply shield pressure on a turtley opponent?

 

[OnFullTilt]

As far as I know doing a bair low to the ground is a bad idea in a lot of cases, since that means you can't waveland afterwards. I think that bair is unsafe on shield so the way you get around it is by doing a short hop into a bair into a waveland- the waveland is what makes the bair shield safe. You CAN do a second bair out of the shorthop instead of the safe waveland, just be aware that you're suddenly turning it into a risk/reward situation instead of having fairly safe shield pressure.

So then what are ways to apply fairly safe shield pressure? The SH->bair/fair->waveland is one way. You could use a well spaced forward tilt if you're not sure if they'll hold up their shield or not. If you're confident that they will hold it up for a while you can go for a DTilt to destroy their shield. If you think they'll hold it up for a very long time just go for a grab or a jab->grab when applicable. Also I've been experimenting with fireball->waveland towards my opponent and if they shield the fireball then the hitstun allows a grab in some cases.

As far as I can recall those are the safer and more general ways to shield pressure. There are however a few more things to keep in mind...
- As Broasty has mentioned you can dash attack someone holding their shield by the ledge to knock them off. This may even lead to a KO as he has said. In fact, here is some juicy info that Broasty has shared in another thread:
"D-Tilt eats shields and safely pushes you away (if the opponent has their shield up). If you want to go for shield pressure and pop their bubble to go for an easy SJP at the end of the day, link it after either your 1st or second Jab if you catch your opponent in shield during the combo. If it doesn't break? No probs, you're pushed away to safety...where you can continue to work on breaking the shield. If it does...well...I don't need to tell you that.

Also, Dash attacks are great to push shielded opponents towards the edge of the stage off the stage. If you learn those matchups right, you can place yourself appropriately for a followup Dair for kill/punish maximization."


- If you accidentally up B on a shielded opponent... it is completely safe! At least if it's done right. When you up B a shielded opponent you get pushed WAY back, which can then let you edge cancel the up B and instantly regain control of Luigi. Up B on a shielded opponent isn't really shield pressure techniacally- it's used when you think they'll drop their shield due to being scared of your possible shield pressure.

Also if you ever have questions about anything most of us active Luigi mains use this thread I think: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...d-people-actually-play-this-character.331675/

 

[DMG]

Are you sure that you can CG a lot of people with Dthrow? If you have to run or WD for the grab, you usually keep that momentum and it works against you when you try to throw them. Squirtle has that issue with his Uthrow (used to be even worse, when Uthrow was totally sucky).

 

[Broasty]

Are you sure that you can CG a lot of people with Dthrow? If you have to run or WD for the grab, you usually keep that momentum and it works against you when you try to throw them. Squirtle has that issue with his Uthrow (used to be even worse, when Uthrow was totally sucky).

I noticed most of the time, if someone can get CG'd, it's using a JC Grab the first frame you can act. Every character has a different throw animation speed, either based on size of character or weight (more than one character may share values of this speed). This timing can be determined on the spot by waiting for the vibration of the controller to completely end during the throw animation and then acting. Can the opponent DI? Yes, however in many cases they are limited to about two possibilities of where they can DI to. As far as data specifically on that goes, that's a phase of research I'll get into after I'm done with the CG chart for the last 5 character with no DI. As far as that momentum goes, you can wait for it to stop while you throw in some pummels (number depending on percent range and your opponent's mash speed). Also, in case you're wondering, I have been trying CG's while playing competitively in the Orlando area and I've got an idea of how the data will correlate between the No DI and DI options, so at the end of the day, yes, I do believe you can CG a lot of people. It's just that the range of percents and cast which the CG is guaranteed is limited, rather than a read that's very similar to a tech Chase (majority of the time for Luigi's CG's).

(Sorry for the off-topic post guys)

 

[OnFullTilt]

(Sorry for the off-topic post guys)

Eh, if someone is keeping the Luigi boards alive in any manner I can't really complain.

Are you sure that you can CG a lot of people with Dthrow? If you have to run or WD for the grab, you usually keep that momentum and it works against you when you try to throw them. Squirtle has that issue with his Uthrow (used to be even worse, when Uthrow was totally sucky).

If in fact you were actually thinking that the sliding would bring Luigi to the end of the stage, ending a chain grab, then it would not affect him because DThrow sends people behind Luigi. EDIT: Broasty just edited his own post and made what used to be the rest of mine obsolete, whoops.