Earthboundy
Smash Apprentice
For Olimar, I recommend countering his Purple Pikmin. Also try and stay close to him. Since Lucina doesn't have to worry about the tipper she can get right in his face.
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You'll do well against olimar if you can juggle very well. We don't have a single aerial that goes through any of yours. I think this one is definitely in Olimar's favor though. You have to approach olimar and we have the tools to really wall you out/ punish your approach.For Olimar, I recommend countering his Purple Pikmin. Also try and stay close to him. Since Lucina doesn't have to worry about the tipper she can get right in his face.
I'm gonna have to strongly disagree you. Yeah, you may have more range, but our attacks come out much much faster with a lot less cool down. We can easily approach with SH fairs into hydrant drop to secure our landing, and getting to close to us is a death sentence because of how quickly we can overwhelm you with our speedy attacks. Fruits can be sheilded yes, but if we run up behind a melon you have only two options to avoid pain; jump or shield. Both of which will get you punished. A smart pac man player will never be predictable because it goes against our playstyle...the versatility to have multiple playstyles. You are probably one of the easiest characters for us to zone out because the only option you have to avoid fruit is to shield which can be popped by a trampoline, and the only attacks you have to smash the hydrant away in one hit are fsmash and sheild breaker. Both of which will get you punished on cooldown. Then when we get in, we can play rush down and never give you the advantage back. A pacman in advantage is the last thing you want to face.The key to this MU is patience. Up close we beat him, we have more range and kill faster. We're also more mobile than him. We need to wait for an opening before we approach. His fruits can just be shielded and his has no other approach. Once we get close, there isn't much he can do. If he gets super predictable and shields too much, we can hit him with a shield breaker. All in all, imo we win the MU
60-40 favoring Lucy
You're kidding right? "Much faster"? Source please. Cool downs, sure.I'm gonna have to strongly disagree you. Yeah, you may have more range, but our attacks come out much much faster with a lot less cool down.
Pac doesn't approach this character, ever. And that is honestly one of the most feeble approaches I could possibly think of otherwise. One power shield against a floaty character with telegraphed timings on his forward air due to awkward hitboxes and said floatyness =/= pressuring. Power shield that very obvious hydrant drop and you're getting a free up smash, dash away back air, up tilt, up air, whatever.We can easily approach with SH fairs into hydrant drop to secure our landing, and getting to close to us is a death sentence because of how quickly we can overwhelm you with our speedy attacks.
What options do other characters have to avoid fruits that Lucina apparently doesn't have?You are probably one of the easiest characters for us to zone out because the only option you have to avoid fruit is to shield which can be popped by a trampoline, and the only attacks you have to smash the hydrant away in one hit are fsmash and sheild breaker. Both of which will get you punished on cooldown.
Those fruits have those impacts, but assuming your opponent knows how each fruit works and their various set ups, you aren't getting much for free, nor are you able to charge to the right fruit all the time. Certain fruits have to be respected, that means "rush down" (something no Lucina playing to win will ever do, mind you) will transition towards walking and reactive options.Then when we get in, we can play rush down and never give you the advantage back. A pacman in advantage is the last thing you want to face.
The only thing you have over us is range...which is closed up by smart fruit gameplay.
Cherry, strawberry, and orange stop SH approaches and rush down.
Orange also gimps you hard due to its good horizontal knockback, forcing you to recover low and hold a dropped hydrant.
Apple covers landings and pops you into the air where you are vulnerable (you can't land very safely against us when a key can immediately break your fall, or uairs that can juggle you)
Melon covers our approach very well as previously mentioned and can be thrown near the ledge to stop all ledge grabbing (when thrown down, it just floats in suspended animation)
Galaxian causes major shield pressure and starts major combos after only the first hit
https://vine.co/v/OjUELIdLAM7
Just for an example. This is guaranteed at around 55% btw.
Oh and this
https://vine.co/v/OI1LX3tFZOl
Isn't guaranteed, but just shows that a read mid combo can lead to death
The bell is amazing. This item steals kills for us at around 90%. It traps you in heavy hitstun long enough for us to hit you with whatever smash attack we choose. It's also an amazing anti air tool because of its strange trajectory.
And the key...powerful.
Threatens landings, powerful punish tool, combos with fthrow, and can steal kills very early.
60:40 in pac's favor thank you very much
http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzUYou're kidding right? "Much faster"? Source please. Cool downs, sure.
Pac doesn't approach this character, ever. And that is honestly one of the most feeble approaches I could possibly think of otherwise. One power shield against a floaty character with telegraphed timings on his forward air due to awkward hitboxes and said floatyness =/= pressuring. Power shield that very obvious hydrant drop and you're getting a free up smash, dash away back air, up tilt, up air, whatever.
But yeah, not buying the speedy attacks and overwhelming the character here. You aren't Sheik.
When I said fewer options, I meant that you don't have a reflector or another projectile to stop fruit. Leaving you vulnerable to theWhat options do other characters have to avoid fruits that Lucina apparently doesn't have?
I won't deny that the swordsmen are probably some of the easiest characters for Pac to zone out. Not sure why trampoline is relevant beyond the one or two time "oh, I didn't know it works like that *roll*"
Also not hitting the hydrant away in one hit is fine considering you cannot do the same either.
Oh I'm well aware that Lucina won't want to play rush down. That's a death sentence.Those fruits have those impacts, but assuming your opponent knows how each fruit works and their various set ups, you aren't getting much for free, nor are you able to charge to the right fruit all the time. Certain fruits have to be respected, that means "rush down" (something no Lucina playing to win will ever do, mind you) will transition towards walking and reactive options.
Interesting...You can angle dolphin slash somewhat horizontally so you don't have to come in directly below a hydrant.
Because the scenarios in which you would trampoline us as that type of shield-punish can be seen a mile away and -will- be rolled out of. Using it as a ground zoning tool sounds a lot better, but it does allow us to dash into it and 1-frame jump aerial I think (if it isn't bounced on more than 2 times).And please tell me how you are rolling around a grounded tranpoline, or how you are rolling away from a frame 1 trampoline on shield.
I count three: Orange, Bell, and Key.Full hop retreating fair from Lucina is something your character doesn't have the mobility to beat and only one of your fruits can reliably punish it.
Personally speaking, I'm not confident in using trampoline as an offensive move against Lucina. PacMan needs to be too close for comfort, and a whiffed Up-B leads to a hard punish from Lucina.Because the scenarios in which you would trampoline us as that type of shield-punish can be seen a mile away and -will- be rolled out of.
Interesting. Orange and Apple both feel like they move faster than Galexian. So if you are considering Galexian as a punish... I'd count Orange, Apple, Galexian, Bell and Key. Orange and Apple set up an advantageous position for PacMan. I can agree that they're not extremely threatening but they definitely knock Lucina up and out into a disadvantaged position. Bell however sets up an easy KO FSmash or USmash, so I'd consider the Bell a strong threat.Funnily enough, only key is a problem of those three to avoid, but we still have our second jump or we can time a catch on it, but it's the last charge so it wasn't the one I was referring to (it's galaxia or whatever).
I disagreeAnd here to kick off a discussion in the Lucina boards is a Fox main ._.
I used to play Marth a bunch and Lucina is obviously quite similar in terms of raw data, so I'll be leaning on that a little.
I think this MU is pretty even, with Lucina having a slight edge:
Let's start with Fox's game-opening options: Laser is the most common one. I will let you in on a little secret. It is not that good. A lot of people who don't play as Fox or against him that much will overestimate this move a lot. If a Fox starts the game by spamming these. Many Lucina players will jump to avoid them. THIS IS WHAT FOX WANTS. Lucina can reach Fox before he gets off more than 2 shots. So making a beeline for him and attacking or grabbing is the best option. If he fires a third shot, you have a guaranteed whatever. If he attacks, shieldgrab, if he shields, grab. Simples. If you jump, then he can follow you into the air and get of many more lasers. It's hard for Fox to
Believe it or not, but Robin is at her strongest when she is carrying a tome.I dunno, really, but I'm pretty sure it's in Robin's favor. A well played Robin has the means to keep Lucina away until their tomes burn out. And careless close combat can result in getting smacked by a Levin Sword. Robin is vulnerable to an extent while charging tomes, but you won't be doing anything besides initiating mindgames up close and slowing the charge a little bit.
It's optimal to hit Robin in those few precious seconds when they are vulnerable; such as a whiffed Arcfire. Baiting spells(i.e faking landing into a Thoron only to jump again if possible) is also viable, but smart players will try to outplay you on that.
Lucina runs faster than Robin, for what it's worth, so that's a small plus for her. Feel free to argue.
lol chucking knowledge I'm going to have to use that from now on whenever Robin throws a tome. Thank you kind sir for this.*sigh* How about we get some replay data instead? I'm willing to do matches if you're interested, @ Locuan .
Now as for theory, Robin's Thoron and Arcthunder defeat Lucina's counters, so you cannot counter them. Shulk's pretty much the only guy who can(Forward Vision), but aside from that Lucina needs to understand her way of approach.
As far as the Levin Sword and Bronze Sword goes, both Lucina and Robin are on even ground in the air. The only difference: Lucina has a better DAir, allowing her to spike Robins that recover low with Elwind. Bronze Sword NAirs can gimp Lucina offstage, so she needs to dodge those(countering them does squat since you'll be too low to recover after the animation unless you're pretty high up and not too far from the ledge).
Arcfire is Robin's means of keeping Lucina out, just like Marth. Considering the run speed, Lucina can get under Arcfire about 1.5-2 seconds into the cast since she dips low like Marth does. At that point Lucina is in Robin's no-no zone.
Nosferatu is still a recovery tool as always.
Elthunder is an attempt at a landing trap that Lucina can counter, but the downside is Robin could gain some stage control, so decisions decisions. Thunder is just a straight-up poke.
As for the durability mechanic: BEWARE OF BOOKS. Lucina can counter, but even then Robin's gonna be chucking knowledge at Lucina when he thinks there's an opening. Countering does discourage going in for the book again, aside from shielding. If you shield a book, Robin can get it again just through Z-Catching and he can use it again.
I saw this a bit late. If you are still up for some matches let me know. I'm not great by any means but I hope it can help out in the match-up knowledge aspect.I'm willing to do matches if you're interested, @ Locuan .
I haven't played against a lot of Lucina so I won't dicuss on this thread...
But as only Game & Watch's players know about his strengths, I'll tell you what they are :
- His UpSmash is totally invincible from frame 4 to 26. Best attack he has.
- Ftilt and Dash Attack have huge priorities and are good zonning tools.
- His grab game is godlike (good range, fast startup, deadly combos).
- Can land a lucky Judge after a Dthrow (depending on the %, obviously).
- He's light and can escape of almost every juggle with his UpB.
- Insane edgeguard game, while being almost impossible to edeguard.
- Disjointed hitboxes on every moves.
- Very fast jab.
Cons:
- Can kill only with Uair, smashes and edgeguards.
- Aerials are unsafe, so you can easily punish a mistake.
- Although he can't be edgeguarded, he's light and easy to kill.
- Has trouble against swordsmen because they outrange him...
To me, he is underestimated. He is not a low tier at all.