Lucina: Match-Up Discussion (UPDATE: Kirby!)

[Earthboundy]

For Olimar, I recommend countering his Purple Pikmin. Also try and stay close to him. Since Lucina doesn't have to worry about the tipper she can get right in his face.

 

[Angbad]

For Olimar, I recommend countering his Purple Pikmin. Also try and stay close to him. Since Lucina doesn't have to worry about the tipper she can get right in his face.

You'll do well against olimar if you can juggle very well. We don't have a single aerial that goes through any of yours. I think this one is definitely in Olimar's favor though. You have to approach olimar and we have the tools to really wall you out/ punish your approach.

 

[HeoandReo]

If you're talking Wii U Olimar, this is probably around 4/6 Olimar's favour. Pikmin Toss is very good at harassing you and building up damage from long range. His smashes outrange yours, and Angbad said, he's really good at keeping you away. Red and Purple Pikmin kill really early too. Lucina does a bit better in the air, but the question is how to even do it.

If you're talking 3DS Olimar, 30 fps Pikmin make him bad enough to make the matchup even-ish. (50/50 or 55/45 Lucina) The matchup is still kinda the same. Pikmin still have range and hit like a truck but they're also more stupid heavily restricted by what I feel is a very questionable design choice.

Like, Olimar single-handedly dismantles any and all claims that both versions play the same.

 

[Shaya]

It's somewhat a hard match up but at the same time quite a few things are good. This is a match up we can walk and shield in a lot. Pikmin latching is different to prior games and hard to avoid, but they shouldn't even be apart of your consciousness (as much as that contrasts to Brawl, it's just too hard to knock them off [you can counter] without frame trapping yourself).

Olimar's grab is definitely less effective than Brawl, with things such as down tilt and sometimes "panic" jabs being godsends. Those trades tend to not favour Lucina as much as Marth though due to this being a mid-range spacing focused match up.

As always respect Purple side-b's and oli's immediate choices otherwise. Dancing Blade is good in the match up too due to the transcended hits still clashing with pikmins, and shield breaker out ranges most of everything in a pinch.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm not sure which moves work, but it would be worth exploring how to efficiently get Pikmin off of you. Maybe nair? I know characters with mostly disjointed attacks can have trouble removing Pikmin. It's essential because Olimar can get a ton of damage off of Pikmin Throw alone.

Also, I think in the air, Lucina wins since she has more disjointed attacks, most of which are faster. But on the ground, Olimar's jab is very fast, and a great boxing option up close that Lucina may have trouble answering. Also, watch out for his forward smash, since with most Pikmin I think it can outrange most of your ground moves.

 

[Shaya]

As I said, don't worry about Side-B (bar purples). You dashing through or getting in and not caring about side-b will get you larger rewards. You can shield or dodge each individually tick of pikmin if you really want.
But don't nair to try to get them off against semi-aggressive (I think this is generally how Oli plays in this game, in contrast to Brawl) players as he is too small to really ever get hit by it and you're taking whatever punishment Oli feels like bestowing upon you if they believe you're silly enough to try.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys! Thank you all for your input. This following discussion period, we focus on the match-up against Pacman! Lets get started!

 

[Macchiato]

The key to this MU is patience. Up close we beat him, we have more range and kill faster. We're also more mobile than him. We need to wait for an opening before we approach. His fruits can just be shielded and his has no other approach. Once we get close, there isn't much he can do. If he gets super predictable and shields too much, we can hit him with a shield breaker. All in all, imo we win the MU

60-40 favoring Lucy

 

[Locuan]

I just noticed I did not post the links in the Pacman boards so they could help us out... Alright, I'll extend this period for two days instead of rotating as this was my own mistake.

 

[Nu~]

The key to this MU is patience. Up close we beat him, we have more range and kill faster. We're also more mobile than him. We need to wait for an opening before we approach. His fruits can just be shielded and his has no other approach. Once we get close, there isn't much he can do. If he gets super predictable and shields too much, we can hit him with a shield breaker. All in all, imo we win the MU

60-40 favoring Lucy

I'm gonna have to strongly disagree you. Yeah, you may have more range, but our attacks come out much much faster with a lot less cool down. We can easily approach with SH fairs into hydrant drop to secure our landing, and getting to close to us is a death sentence because of how quickly we can overwhelm you with our speedy attacks. Fruits can be sheilded yes, but if we run up behind a melon you have only two options to avoid pain; jump or shield. Both of which will get you punished. A smart pac man player will never be predictable because it goes against our playstyle...the versatility to have multiple playstyles. You are probably one of the easiest characters for us to zone out because the only option you have to avoid fruit is to shield which can be popped by a trampoline, and the only attacks you have to smash the hydrant away in one hit are fsmash and sheild breaker. Both of which will get you punished on cooldown. Then when we get in, we can play rush down and never give you the advantage back. A pacman in advantage is the last thing you want to face.
The only thing you have over us is range...which is closed up by smart fruit gameplay.
Cherry, strawberry, and orange stop SH approaches and rush down.
Orange also gimps you hard due to its good horizontal knockback, forcing you to recover low and hold a dropped hydrant.
Apple covers landings and pops you into the air where you are vulnerable (you can't land very safely against us when a key can immediately break your fall, or uairs that can juggle you)
Melon covers our approach very well as previously mentioned and can be thrown near the ledge to stop all ledge grabbing (when thrown down, it just floats in suspended animation)
Galaxian causes major shield pressure and starts major combos after only the first hit
https://vine.co/v/OjUELIdLAM7
Just for an example. This is guaranteed at around 55% btw.

Oh and this
https://vine.co/v/OI1LX3tFZOl
Isn't guaranteed, but just shows that a read mid combo can lead to death

The bell is amazing. This item steals kills for us at around 90%. It traps you in heavy hitstun long enough for us to hit you with whatever smash attack we choose. It's also an amazing anti air tool because of its strange trajectory.
And the key...powerful.
Threatens landings, powerful punish tool, combos with fthrow, and can steal kills very early.

60:40 in pac's favor thank you very much

 

[Firedemon0]

Hello Pacman main here. Pac-man lacks range in close combat against Lucina, but he isn't hampered by pressure she can dish out. One good trampoline from Pac-man and he can reset to neutral/mid range. Her attacks outside of smashes lack the damage to one shot our hydrant giving us effective trap options. When she does smash attack Hydrant we can normally follow with a counter attack.

He is very capable of gimping her recovery very easily. Lucina is able to gimp Pacman, but cannot go too deep to do it. Overall most of the Pacman players feel it is in his favor. 60:40

 

[Paper Maribro]

I've played a few Lucinas in my time and it's no walk in the park. Disjoint can be very good against us due to our low overall range but I would say this matchup is firmly in our favour. Fruit are great for punishing your highly laggy landings, your linear recovery is gimped by us fairly easily too but it's not all bad. Once you get in, it's not easy for us to squirm out and your ten frame FSmash is dangerous despite the obvious power difference relative to Marth.

I'd probably call it at 55:45 to us. Maybe 60:40 but it's not a walk in the park by any means and your superior range does mean something even if fruit shuts it down in many ways.

 

[Shaya]

Did we do this with Marth or am I just having the strangest deja vu?

I really have no idea what the match up is, game play wise it's pretty simple, Pacman is an element/mechanic rich character, if you have great experience with item play and solid platformer fundamentals you'll be likely to succeed or do well. Not to undercut Pac's potential, but he feels mostly PvE as a character (my experience with Pac was limited to australia's proximity to Japan lovely pacman/yoshi/greninja wifi meta which I legitimately never lost to and RichBrown since I've been in the USA, who isn't necessarily a pac main at this stage but he's still a high level player using the character).

I'm gonna have to strongly disagree you. Yeah, you may have more range, but our attacks come out much much faster with a lot less cool down.

You're kidding right? "Much faster"? Source please. Cool downs, sure.

We can easily approach with SH fairs into hydrant drop to secure our landing, and getting to close to us is a death sentence because of how quickly we can overwhelm you with our speedy attacks.

Pac doesn't approach this character, ever. And that is honestly one of the most feeble approaches I could possibly think of otherwise. One power shield against a floaty character with telegraphed timings on his forward air due to awkward hitboxes and said floatyness =/= pressuring. Power shield that very obvious hydrant drop and you're getting a free up smash, dash away back air, up tilt, up air, whatever.
But yeah, not buying the speedy attacks and overwhelming the character here. You aren't Sheik.

You are probably one of the easiest characters for us to zone out because the only option you have to avoid fruit is to shield which can be popped by a trampoline, and the only attacks you have to smash the hydrant away in one hit are fsmash and sheild breaker. Both of which will get you punished on cooldown.

What options do other characters have to avoid fruits that Lucina apparently doesn't have?
I won't deny that the swordsmen are probably some of the easiest characters for Pac to zone out. Not sure why trampoline is relevant beyond the one or two time "oh, I didn't know it works like that *roll*"
Also not hitting the hydrant away in one hit is fine considering you cannot do the same either.

Then when we get in, we can play rush down and never give you the advantage back. A pacman in advantage is the last thing you want to face.
The only thing you have over us is range...which is closed up by smart fruit gameplay.
Cherry, strawberry, and orange stop SH approaches and rush down.
Orange also gimps you hard due to its good horizontal knockback, forcing you to recover low and hold a dropped hydrant.
Apple covers landings and pops you into the air where you are vulnerable (you can't land very safely against us when a key can immediately break your fall, or uairs that can juggle you)
Melon covers our approach very well as previously mentioned and can be thrown near the ledge to stop all ledge grabbing (when thrown down, it just floats in suspended animation)
Galaxian causes major shield pressure and starts major combos after only the first hit
https://vine.co/v/OjUELIdLAM7
Just for an example. This is guaranteed at around 55% btw.

Oh and this
https://vine.co/v/OI1LX3tFZOl
Isn't guaranteed, but just shows that a read mid combo can lead to death

The bell is amazing. This item steals kills for us at around 90%. It traps you in heavy hitstun long enough for us to hit you with whatever smash attack we choose. It's also an amazing anti air tool because of its strange trajectory.
And the key...powerful.
Threatens landings, powerful punish tool, combos with fthrow, and can steal kills very early.

60:40 in pac's favor thank you very much

Those fruits have those impacts, but assuming your opponent knows how each fruit works and their various set ups, you aren't getting much for free, nor are you able to charge to the right fruit all the time. Certain fruits have to be respected, that means "rush down" (something no Lucina playing to win will ever do, mind you) will transition towards walking and reactive options.

You can angle dolphin slash somewhat horizontally so you don't have to come in directly below a hydrant.

 

[Nu~]

You're kidding right? "Much faster"? Source please. Cool downs, sure.

http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
Since you asked so nicely

A lot of people don't know how quick pac-man's attacks are. Outside of his smash attacks and grab, nothing goes over frame 9
I may have exaggerated when I said much faster, but we have quite a few moves faster than yours.

Pac doesn't approach this character, ever. And that is honestly one of the most feeble approaches I could possibly think of otherwise. One power shield against a floaty character with telegraphed timings on his forward air due to awkward hitboxes and said floatyness =/= pressuring. Power shield that very obvious hydrant drop and you're getting a free up smash, dash away back air, up tilt, up air, whatever.
But yeah, not buying the speedy attacks and overwhelming the character here. You aren't Sheik.

What options do other characters have to avoid fruits that Lucina apparently doesn't have?
I won't deny that the swordsmen are probably some of the easiest characters for Pac to zone out. Not sure why trampoline is relevant beyond the one or two time "oh, I didn't know it works like that *roll*"
Also not hitting the hydrant away in one hit is fine considering you cannot do the same either.

When I said fewer options, I meant that you don't have a reflector or another projectile to stop fruit. Leaving you vulnerable to the
throw melon -> dash behind it -> punish your reaction
Which is another approach option we have if we ever have to approach.
And the key can break the hydrant in one hit. Before you say "you need to charge it every time" we can catch our own key by throwing it at the stage and grabbing it while it falls.
Then you have to deal with z dropping from an item that deals 15% per hit.
And please tell me how you are rolling around a grounded tranpoline, or how you are rolling away from a frame 1 trampoline on shield.

Those fruits have those impacts, but assuming your opponent knows how each fruit works and their various set ups, you aren't getting much for free, nor are you able to charge to the right fruit all the time. Certain fruits have to be respected, that means "rush down" (something no Lucina playing to win will ever do, mind you) will transition towards walking and reactive options.

Oh I'm well aware that Lucina won't want to play rush down. That's a death sentence.
You are right. We aren't getting anything for free, but whenever you slip up even the slightest bit, you will be hit for it. The fruit force you to play his game.

You can angle dolphin slash somewhat horizontally so you don't have to come in directly below a hydrant.

Interesting...

 

[Firedemon0]

Pac-man's aerials are fast, we have a 3 frame hurt box on Nair. OOS Nair is one of Pac-man's best shield options. It also has the lowest landing lag at 12. Lucina's fastest is also her nair at 15, but Fair would see more use because of its arc, and happens to be 18 frames. Pac-man has frame advantage on landing with fair as well coming in at 16 frames. We can act faster out of our aerials then Lucina can, excluding Bair, but we do not use it in neutral.

Her shield knockback is lower then Marth's, so Pac-man is able to to get closer with OOS Nair, and drop hydrant applying pressure to Lucina. Lucina is unable to effectively zone compared to Pac-man. She can space in Neutral to try to keep Pac-man out, but not zone because of the obvious lack of projectiles.

Dolphin Slash is an effective OOS shield option against Pac-man when he is at higher percents. Her sword's disjointed hitbox is what makes this match up close as it does. It will hit any aerial we throw out. Her grab is more effective the Pac-man's as well. Her ground game is stronger because of the aforementioned hit boxes. Lucina is forced to be patient with Pac-man, which leads to Pac-man having more options and tactics when trying to approach. You said it yourself that Lucina does not Rushdown, which does allow Pac-man to pick any fruit he needs for his choice of approach.

You also stated that certain fruit need to be respected, which I am going to guess is key for this example. If Pac-man does not dash in, you know that Key will punish any badly timed aerial. So empty hops are going to be a good choice so you can go back into Shield if needed to see Pac-man's response. Pac-man however, can then rush in and Trampoline for extra damage, and hit with Key. Can also drop Hydrant to force you to react to the water pushes, and punish that reaction. We have the cards in that exchange, and similar mind games happen with various fruit, making deep knowledge of options required, but because of our options, we can adapt to the various responses Lucina can do and land the fruit when we need to. Our only weakness is the lag of our smashes limiting our kill options, but with Side-b and Fruit, we have tools that can still kill, just need to work a bit for it.

Pac-man controls the fight, while Lucina is forced on the defensive, this is already on Pac-man's favor, hence the 60:40

 

[dragontamer]

Lucina gets first strike against PacMan, almost everywhere. Grounded approach, Aerial approach, everywhere. If Pacman gets within Lucina's striking distance however, that is PacMan's mistake.

PacMan however can close to footsie distance and then pelt with Strawberries and Oranges while using superior mobility to stay outside of the reach of Lucina's sword. Lucina has a difficult time closing the "last inch" of distance against PacMan.

PacMan can on occasion enter inside of Lucina's "zone" to start baiting Lucina's attacks. But I feel like PacMan's strategy is mainly staying safe, and baiting out Lucina's high-cooldown attacks. Pac-Man's 3-frame SH Nair is a universal punish on almost all of of Lucina's distance closers. (Dash attack, SH Nair, SH Fair). 10% damage and knocks Lucina off the neutral game. It begins to threaten Orange-gimps.

A walking Lucina threatening UTilt and FTilt is probably the best approach vs PacMan. (I respect Lucina's superior walking speed...) Her startups are pretty good, especially her FSmash threat. But on the ground, PacMan has the faster Jab and faster FTilt. In the Air, we have faster startups on Nair and Fair. Lucina commands a considerable "dead-zone" where she can strike PacMan (while PacMan whiffs everything). But when PacMan is "in", our faster Jab and FTilt give us a slight edge in the extremely close CQC game.

PacMan just has to stay outside of the dead zone. If he's too close, Jabs / FTilts are to our advantage. If PacMan is too far, Cherry, Strawberry, and Orange make life considerably more difficult for Lucina.

-----------

Trampoline is an amazing tool to keep Lucina in a disadvantaged position. You cannot roll, you cannot shield, you cannot do anything to the Trampoline. Lucina's best option is to wait behind the trampoline or maybe SH over it threatening a Fair. In any case, the Trampoline buys PacMan time to charge up his fruit, and makes the opponent more predictable.

Rolling, walking, dashing, or anything onto the Trampoline will force Lucina to jump high, and when PacMan is under you... your options are limited. Fair and Nair whiff, and Lucina's Dair is a dangerous attack to commit to with not nearly as good of a hitbox. PacMan is normally beaten out by Lucina's superior range on Nair and Fair, but if lifted high by the trampoline then Lucina is definitely at a disadvantage.

---------

Offstage, Lucina's average recovery gets rocked by Orange. She has a very difficult time recovering high or mid vs PacMan. Recovering low every time leads to Hydrant or Bair. In contrast, PacMan has easy-mode "super-low" recovery. He can recover from an angle far deeper than Lucina can punish.

---------

This isn't PacMan's easiest matchup. But with proper spacing I feel like its 55:45, PacMan's favor. PacMan doesn't get easy-mode aerial victories against you like he does against a lot of the cast. Lucina's FAir is surprisingly good still, despite its nerfs from Brawl / Melee. But ultimately, Lucina has a very big problem against Cherry, Strawberry and Orange. Especially Orange. And that gives us the edge in the battle.

FYI: the first fruit on our Bonus Fruit charge are Cherry, Strawberry, and Orange respectively. The fact that these three fruit are our best tools against Lucina is a critical advantage.

 

[MDAVE]

Pac-Man definitely beats Lucina in this match-up. With his quite decent offstage game and his projectiles from his neutral special (which each have various effect) could put Lucina in a bad position. Though, this matchup is far from unbeatable. With good spaced aerial moves we might just be able to enter his territory. 55-45/60-40 is what I'd say, mostly because of the extra range Pac-man gets from below the stage and with his down special.

 

[Shaya]

55:45 seems fair (for Pac). Just because I'm willing to underrate the character when she's currently so "weak". But by design I don't think the match up is there for Pac at all, you win purely by the notion that you're able and willing to hold shield indefinitely [with the right fruit] and that Lucina cannot kill. But after all my experiences with Pac, I don't think he's a great character either, your character doesn't just "win" by virtue of everyone being mostly on the same wavelength about Lucina's viability/strength.

The questions/factors that haven't been brought up by your side (although I bring it up on mine) is the reliability of power shielding your stuff. Your fruit can be grabbed/taken from you and used against you, something seemingly not even a contention from your side of the match up (I played against ZSS for 6 years in Brawl, 3 armor pieces > Pac's fruits, doing well, heck sometimes dominating first stock against her was possible even against Salem). I don't think your fruit are that amazing in as many situations as is made out, a power shield means I'm able feasibly to use your fruit against you as will a well timed aerial or air dodge (which we can insta throw back at you), a power shield means you're at a positional disadvantage no matter what because you're without a fruit and your character's normals are honestly pathetically matched against Lucina's sword in any air vs air, ground vs ground (dtilt and DS), ground vs air scenario; I have to mildly respect hydrant although back air cleanly beats it and hits you through it without us getting touched.

Full hop retreating fair from Lucina is something your character doesn't have the mobility to beat and only one of your fruits can reliably punish it. It does get you the time to freely charge a fruit if you're aware of the situation, but it means we can choose mid-range options that will beat your fruit throws head on as well as your shield with little risk. On a more risky choice that's still effective, sh air dodge aerials work too (we can air dodge and use all 4 of our aerials before landing, this times well with that perfect landing cancel hijinx too to some extent).

And please tell me how you are rolling around a grounded tranpoline, or how you are rolling away from a frame 1 trampoline on shield.

Because the scenarios in which you would trampoline us as that type of shield-punish can be seen a mile away and -will- be rolled out of. Using it as a ground zoning tool sounds a lot better, but it does allow us to dash into it and 1-frame jump aerial I think (if it isn't bounced on more than 2 times).

 

[dragontamer]

I grant Lucina the power / KO factor advantage, especially on the ground.

But I'm convinced that Power-shielders are reading the PacMan player, not in fact reacting to the fruit. In my experience, Power-shielding opponents get their timing mixed up when I mix up between Cherry, Strawberry, and Orange. Only when I let my instincts and habits slip do opponents get consistent power-shields against my fruit.

With careful randomization of timings, basically anything between Cherry through Apple (fruits 1 through 4), the power-shielding players are left with a regular shield, which leads to PacMan's advantage IMO. I will concede that switching up the timing (especially slowing down to Apple) provides additional openings for Lucina to exploit. But I consider the approach very difficult for Lucina nonetheless.

Apple is the latest fruit I'm willing to grant Pacman in the neutral game with Lucina approaching. Key and Galexian obviously stub Lucina's approach, but they take too long to charge up for assuming we're in a footsie situation.

You're not power-shielding one projectile thrown at a constant speed (ie: the ZSS Brawl armor situation). You're power-shielding four potentially different projectiles, launched at potentially times, each with its own speed and properties.

Honestly, I'm more concerned about Lucinas who can time a catch in combination with Lucina's Dash attack than power-shielders. The dashing-animation forces PacMan into a rough position, often forcing me to throw the fruit at an obvious time. (Especially with dash -> shield breaker, the obvious "Block the Dash Attack" strategy isn't exactly very reliable)

Full hop retreating fair from Lucina is something your character doesn't have the mobility to beat and only one of your fruits can reliably punish it.

I count three: Orange, Bell, and Key.

Orange and Key punish the landing. Bell punishes you while still in the air (and probably threatens USmash from the stun, or at very lease UAir or Nair). Apple and Galexian are a bit slower, but I wouldn't be surprised if they forced Lucina to double-jump nonetheless... ceding an advantage to the PacMan player.

In any case, retreating from the fight plays to PacMan's advantage. We can charge up to a higher-level fruit, set up a Trampoline, or set up a Hydrant trap. Lucina doesn't gain anything by granting PacMan more time. If Lucina is retreating or playing passively, that's more time for the PacMan player to set up a complicated trap.

Complicated traps include: Hydrant Launch (probably Bair->FTilt, or FSmash launch), Hydrant-assisted Fruit throws, Hydrant-dashing, or Melon approaches etc. etc. These take time to set up, but definitely provide PacMan a considerable advantage if we decide to assault.

Because the scenarios in which you would trampoline us as that type of shield-punish can be seen a mile away and -will- be rolled out of.

Personally speaking, I'm not confident in using trampoline as an offensive move against Lucina. PacMan needs to be too close for comfort, and a whiffed Up-B leads to a hard punish from Lucina.

On the other hand, a trampoline set up between Lucina and PacMan can provide extra time for a multi-stage trap setup (or at least, charge to higher-level fruit). Lucina's only real approach when a trampoline separates the two is a SH Fair/Nair or Full-hop Fair/Nair. All ground options lead to a disadvantage as you run into the trampoline.

 

[Shaya]

I edited my post a bit FYI.

Funnily enough, only key is a problem of those three to avoid, but we still have our second jump or we can time a catch on it, but it's the last charge so it wasn't the one I was referring to (it's galaxia or whatever).

Lucina can rush you down in mid-range from a power shield for a guaranteed punish.
"Pac cannot be power shielded reliably"
Then unless we have nothing else to add from my edits, we're done because that crosses the line for me in terms of theory/reality (which cannot be resolved without seeing tournament play). Also there are two or three speeds for item throws, armor pieces bounce off of shields and characters (hence they can be reliably thrown and caught while maintaining positive frame advantage on shield) and off of the ground (vertically), and you can catch and instant throw them from the air with little lag. They also can be invincible dropped (dropping them from an air dodge). Let's not forget glide tossing on top of this.

If you didn't power shield ZSS armor pieces, you would lose your first stock, sometimes two and she could maintain three of them at once.
If you would like to provide me frame data which shows that your item charging and throws are stupendously fast (like sub 10 frame start up + a mid-range reach in sub 15 frames) then your stuff is going to be power shielded on reaction.

 

[dragontamer]

Hmm... I can agree to the 15-frame challenge, while it doesn't match my Smash4 experience yet. From other fighting games, 15-frames matches up to the reaction speeds of tournament-level players pretty well.

I don't really have the throw-speed for PacMan, but I'll try to work on that data next time I get the chance.

I can fully agree that power-shields grossly give an advantage in this game. I have used power-shields against other projectile heavy characters (Link, Rob, etc. etc.) to get "in" and past projectiles with huge advantages. But my current experience with opponents only had a few players good enough who can power-shield me consistently... and those few stopped being able to power-shield when I switched up my timing / fruit.

It could be an issue of matchup experience right now. In the long term, I agree with the assessment that players will gain 15-frame reaction speeds as you claim.

Funnily enough, only key is a problem of those three to avoid, but we still have our second jump or we can time a catch on it, but it's the last charge so it wasn't the one I was referring to (it's galaxia or whatever).

Interesting. Orange and Apple both feel like they move faster than Galexian. So if you are considering Galexian as a punish... I'd count Orange, Apple, Galexian, Bell and Key. Orange and Apple set up an advantageous position for PacMan. I can agree that they're not extremely threatening but they definitely knock Lucina up and out into a disadvantaged position. Bell however sets up an easy KO FSmash or USmash, so I'd consider the Bell a strong threat.

 

[Shaya]

Bell is pretty awesome but hard to aim, I tend to find I get hit by them in the air if anything. Galaxia's looping was what I found best because it restricts my ability to fast fall through at high heights and covers most of my aerial choices while you do have the time to run in and be in advantageous position (it's also a lot easier for you to recatch than other fruits usually, maintaining the advantageous state).

 

[Firedemon0]

You also have to keep in mind that yes, you can grab Pacman's fruit, but that leaves you with limited responses if you want to keep away. Space with a few side B strikes or trying to use zdropping against Pacman to get aerials back. Pacman in the meantime is now able to close the gap because of a delay in sh aerials. He is not just his bonus fruit. Pacman would still have hydrant and trampoline and less threat from her attacks. Pacman can also return the favor if you throw the fruit with powersheilding.

Any character can catch the fruit, it is something a pacman player should know. We know the limitations when holding it, and you would only get one good throw excluding any zdropping attempts.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys! I'll be at APEX2015 this weekend so the following discussion period will be a bit longer. As soon as I get back from New Jersey I will update the thread.

Anyways, this discussion period we will focus on the Fox match-up. Let's get started!

 

[EndlessRain]

And here to kick off a discussion in the Lucina boards is a Fox main ._.
I used to play Marth a bunch and Lucina is obviously quite similar in terms of raw data, so I'll be leaning on that a little.
I think this MU is pretty even, with Lucina having a slight edge:
Let's start with Fox's game-opening options: Laser is the most common one. I will let you in on a little secret. It is not that good. A lot of people who don't play as Fox or against him that much will overestimate this move a lot. If a Fox starts the game by spamming these. Many Lucina players will jump to avoid them. THIS IS WHAT FOX WANTS. Lucina can reach Fox before he gets off more than 2 shots. So making a beeline for him and attacking or grabbing is the best option. If he fires a third shot, you have a guaranteed whatever. If he attacks, shieldgrab, if he shields, grab. Simples. If you jump, then he can follow you into the air and get of many more lasers. It's hard for Fox to

 

[roymustang1990-]

And here to kick off a discussion in the Lucina boards is a Fox main ._.
I used to play Marth a bunch and Lucina is obviously quite similar in terms of raw data, so I'll be leaning on that a little.
I think this MU is pretty even, with Lucina having a slight edge:
Let's start with Fox's game-opening options: Laser is the most common one. I will let you in on a little secret. It is not that good. A lot of people who don't play as Fox or against him that much will overestimate this move a lot. If a Fox starts the game by spamming these. Many Lucina players will jump to avoid them. THIS IS WHAT FOX WANTS. Lucina can reach Fox before he gets off more than 2 shots. So making a beeline for him and attacking or grabbing is the best option. If he fires a third shot, you have a guaranteed whatever. If he attacks, shieldgrab, if he shields, grab. Simples. If you jump, then he can follow you into the air and get of many more lasers. It's hard for Fox to

I disagree

Once fox gets his momentum going due to his insane speed,it's very hard to turn that around

Lucina is better off taking blast shots than getting hit by his jab,u tilt, dash attack which all follow up nicely into other moves for easy percent

match up is looking 60-40,in fox's favor.

 

[KenMeister]

Ugh....I'm going through these discussions and Lucina has soooo many negative matchups, it's depressing.

 

[Locuan]

We did not have much discussion regarding the Fox match-up. But, as always, thanks to the fox mains who visited our thread and helped us out! We will go back to the match-up at a later date. For the new discussion period, we will focus on the Robin match-up! Let's get started.

 

[LIQUID12A]

I dunno, really, but I'm pretty sure it's in Robin's favor. A well played Robin has the means to keep Lucina away until their tomes burn out. And careless close combat can result in getting smacked by a Levin Sword. Robin is vulnerable to an extent while charging tomes, but you won't be doing anything besides initiating mindgames up close and slowing the charge a little bit.
It's optimal to hit Robin in those few precious seconds when they are vulnerable; such as a whiffed Arcfire. Baiting spells(i.e faking landing into a Thoron only to jump again if possible) is also viable, but smart players will try to outplay you on that.

Lucina runs faster than Robin, for what it's worth, so that's a small plus for her. Feel free to argue.

 

[SoBMudkip]

Robin is slightly favorable in most matchups with sword fighters. Arcfire effectively shuts down the rush down ground game and pressures Lucina at mid range. Thoron can punsish careless moves at any range, and is effective for edge guarding or killing. A good Robin player will not be so focused on charging the thunder tome, so you can forget about any openings there. Lucina also doesn't have many approach options on Robin due to her shorter range and lack of projectiles. A good strategy is if you see Robin trying to shieldgrab your aerial approaches, use a shorthop shieldbreaker to force Robin to evade the attack.

Last thoughts: Robin will try and keep Lucina at bay with spells while using arcfire and arcthunder to lead into high damage combos. I think Robin has a slightly superior aerial game, so Lucina must use the counter to safely contest in the aerial game.

 

[Silverfox117]

Lucina is fast and has a longer sword... That is all I can say about this match up for her. Robin just has way too many tools for her to compete. Robin has guranteed kill set ups as low as 100 percent. Lucina has to rely on a hard read to kill. Also Robin racks up damage much faster than Lucina does.

Counter is easily baited, and should not be used very much against a good Robin player. Also did you know that if you are slightly above Lucina/Marth you can elwind there up b, or if you have good timing and they are recovering low you can stage spike with bair.

I will say that for the most part due to Lucina's longer range she beats Robin in the air. You could use that to your advantage. Just watch out for Robins up air.(Its scary, and kills way too early, and beats out most other aerials for no reason. )

I dunno, really, but I'm pretty sure it's in Robin's favor. A well played Robin has the means to keep Lucina away until their tomes burn out. And careless close combat can result in getting smacked by a Levin Sword. Robin is vulnerable to an extent while charging tomes, but you won't be doing anything besides initiating mindgames up close and slowing the charge a little bit.
It's optimal to hit Robin in those few precious seconds when they are vulnerable; such as a whiffed Arcfire. Baiting spells(i.e faking landing into a Thoron only to jump again if possible) is also viable, but smart players will try to outplay you on that.

Lucina runs faster than Robin, for what it's worth, so that's a small plus for her. Feel free to argue.

Believe it or not, but Robin is at her strongest when she is carrying a tome.

 

[Ultimastrike]

*sigh* How about we get some replay data instead? I'm willing to do matches if you're interested, @ Locuan .

Now as for theory, Robin's Thoron and Arcthunder defeat Lucina's counters, so you cannot counter them. Shulk's pretty much the only guy who can(Forward Vision), but aside from that Lucina needs to understand her way of approach.

As far as the Levin Sword and Bronze Sword goes, both Lucina and Robin are on even ground in the air. The only difference: Lucina has a better DAir, allowing her to spike Robins that recover low with Elwind. Bronze Sword NAirs can gimp Lucina offstage, so she needs to dodge those(countering them does squat since you'll be too low to recover after the animation unless you're pretty high up and not too far from the ledge).

Arcfire is Robin's means of keeping Lucina out, just like Marth. Considering the run speed, Lucina can get under Arcfire about 1.5-2 seconds into the cast since she dips low like Marth does. At that point Lucina is in Robin's no-no zone.

Nosferatu is still a recovery tool as always.

Elthunder is an attempt at a landing trap that Lucina can counter, but the downside is Robin could gain some stage control, so decisions decisions. Thunder is just a straight-up poke.

As for the durability mechanic: BEWARE OF BOOKS. Lucina can counter, but even then Robin's gonna be chucking knowledge at Lucina when he thinks there's an opening. Countering does discourage going in for the book again, aside from shielding. If you shield a book, Robin can get it again just through Z-Catching and he can use it again.

 

[Silverfox117]

*sigh* How about we get some replay data instead? I'm willing to do matches if you're interested, @ Locuan .

Now as for theory, Robin's Thoron and Arcthunder defeat Lucina's counters, so you cannot counter them. Shulk's pretty much the only guy who can(Forward Vision), but aside from that Lucina needs to understand her way of approach.

As far as the Levin Sword and Bronze Sword goes, both Lucina and Robin are on even ground in the air. The only difference: Lucina has a better DAir, allowing her to spike Robins that recover low with Elwind. Bronze Sword NAirs can gimp Lucina offstage, so she needs to dodge those(countering them does squat since you'll be too low to recover after the animation unless you're pretty high up and not too far from the ledge).

Arcfire is Robin's means of keeping Lucina out, just like Marth. Considering the run speed, Lucina can get under Arcfire about 1.5-2 seconds into the cast since she dips low like Marth does. At that point Lucina is in Robin's no-no zone.

Nosferatu is still a recovery tool as always.

Elthunder is an attempt at a landing trap that Lucina can counter, but the downside is Robin could gain some stage control, so decisions decisions. Thunder is just a straight-up poke.

As for the durability mechanic: BEWARE OF BOOKS. Lucina can counter, but even then Robin's gonna be chucking knowledge at Lucina when he thinks there's an opening. Countering does discourage going in for the book again, aside from shielding. If you shield a book, Robin can get it again just through Z-Catching and he can use it again.

lol chucking knowledge I'm going to have to use that from now on whenever Robin throws a tome. Thank you kind sir for this.

 

[Locuan]

I'm willing to do matches if you're interested, @ Locuan .

I saw this a bit late. If you are still up for some matches let me know. I'm not great by any means but I hope it can help out in the match-up knowledge aspect.

We did not have much discussion on this match-up so we will have to return to it at a later date. It's important to note that we need to come up with numbers as to who has the advantage above the other character. This will help us greatly in the future. This discussion period we focus on the Mr. Game and Watch Match-Up. Let's get started!

 

[X3I]

I haven't played against a lot of Lucina so I won't dicuss on this thread...
But as only Game & Watch's players know about his strengths, I'll tell you what they are :

- His UpSmash is totally invincible from frame 4 to 26. Best attack he has.
- Ftilt and Dash Attack have huge priorities and are good zonning tools.
- His grab game is godlike (good range, fast startup, deadly combos).
- Can land a lucky Judge after a Dthrow (depending on the %, obviously).
- He's light and can escape of almost every juggle with his UpB.
- Insane edgeguard game, while being almost impossible to edeguard.
- Disjointed hitboxes on every moves.
- Very fast jab.

Cons:
- Can kill only with Uair, smashes and edgeguards.
- Aerials are unsafe, so you can easily punish a mistake.
- Although he can't be edgeguarded, he's light and easy to kill.
- Has trouble against swordsmen because they outrange him...

To me, he is underestimated. He is not a low tier at all.

 

[SeanS]

G&W player chiming in, this matchup is not in your favor.

G&W ADVANTAGES

G&W completely destroys Lucina's air game. Perfectly spaced Fairs are still punishable with G&W's dash attack, which leaves Lucina low and hanging in the air, which does not let her act consistently. Bair is punished similarly. Dair and Uair are necessarily unsafe because of their endlag.

Badly spaced moves will generally lead to G&W grabbing you for upwards of 20% damage each time, or at least getting dash attacked or hit OOS. In fact, sometimes just being in the air can expose you to up B shenanigans, which are not punishable by attacks or counters and must be air dodged.

Lucina has poor recovery options. Standard jump to up B is punished by offstage rushing fair / up B, up B onto onstage has enough lag to be punished with an Ftilt even if not predicted, side B delayed recovery is also punishable by an offstage rushing fair / up B, and fully charged shield breaker recovery can be Usmashed / Fsmashed / up B'd depending on the angle. Also, recoveries from deep under can get you turtle trapped into a stage spike attempt. One hit from G&W as you recover is usually sufficient to kill you (or trap you into second hop Fair if a sourspot Fair is landed).

Lucina's moves have too much commitment to edgeguard G&W effectively. The only real option is ledge hog to spike, and any good G&W will not give you the rare opening for that.

Lucina does very little damage off throws and has very few followups with them. This is problematic because throws are a significant part of how you deal with G&W.


LUCINA ADVANTAGES

Dtilt, used intelligently, is pretty decent at forcing odd angles of approach from G&W.

Counter can negate certain high probability followups, i.e. dash attack chains at specific percentages, some throw strings at specific percentages. However, if read, it will lead to a very high amount of damage being dealt to you in this particular MU.

Shield Breaker is fantastic for mixups against this character's floaty approach and sometimes nets you the kill.


OVERALL

This is 65-35 in G&W's favor. Lucina must run a very tight prediction game in order to win because of how even the slightest bit of poor spacing can get her punished and because of her poor throwing. Commonly, good Lucina players save Shield Breaker for hard reads and mostly rely on Dancing Blade mixups against me to artificially create unpredictability and a sense of danger when they don't know what to do, but they always run the risk of getting punished as a result.

 

[roymustang1990-]

I haven't played against a lot of Lucina so I won't dicuss on this thread...
But as only Game & Watch's players know about his strengths, I'll tell you what they are :

- His UpSmash is totally invincible from frame 4 to 26. Best attack he has.
- Ftilt and Dash Attack have huge priorities and are good zonning tools.
- His grab game is godlike (good range, fast startup, deadly combos).
- Can land a lucky Judge after a Dthrow (depending on the %, obviously).
- He's light and can escape of almost every juggle with his UpB.
- Insane edgeguard game, while being almost impossible to edeguard.
- Disjointed hitboxes on every moves.
- Very fast jab.

Cons:
- Can kill only with Uair, smashes and edgeguards.
- Aerials are unsafe, so you can easily punish a mistake.
- Although he can't be edgeguarded, he's light and easy to kill.
- Has trouble against swordsmen because they outrange him...

To me, he is underestimated. He is not a low tier at all.

By invincible frames,you mean super armor,right? :0

 

[X3I]

No. Invincible.
He takes 0% and ****s you.

 

[Shaya]

I play a hell of a lot of G&W

Yep, Up Smash is invincible, very lovely move.
I don't think it's 65:35, it could be a solid advantage for either character though.


Lucina's commitments in trying to get to the ground are just destroyed by up smash and dash attack. However, just about everything you touch our shield with is punishable, while things such as full hop fair maintains respect from G&W.

I honestly feel as if G&W's killing ability will get the worst of him in this match up.

 

[Locuan]

Alright guys thanks for the discussion. This discussion period we begin the analysis on Pit! Let's get started.