Lucina: Match-Up Discussion (UPDATE: Kirby!)

[Locuan]

Alright, I don't normally do this since I usually have little experience on a match-up but this time it's one of the match-ups I played the most in friendlies and in the tournament I participated in this past weekend. This is assuming Mega-Man without customs.

Observations:

Part 1: Mega Man's projectiles
Mega-Man has a lot of tools to keep Lucina away. B, Side B, forward smash in some rare situations, Pellets, in both grounded and aerial versions. Lucina needs to be patient to close the gap. As @Zano mentioned, pellets are an incredible move. As an example, they stop projectiles such as Robin's Arc Thunder, they stop your forward momentum, etc. A walking Lucina is the best Lucina in this case. It sucks being in the dash animation just to have a pellet stop all of your momentum and get punished by it. As for the B, and Side B, there are a few tools you can utilize to get around them somewhat ok-ish. Short Hop air dodge is always something to consider, you can also shield. You need to be careful when shielding Mega-Man's B since it has multiple hit-boxes. Shield drop too early and you will get hit by B. Also, you need to not rely on shielding this move too often. Good Mega-Man players can utilize it to bait you into shielding so they can land a grab. You can also attempt to catch the metal gear but again the Mega-Man player may be utilizing it to cut off your access to A moves. Mix up your defensive options as to keep them guessing and punish them for the incorrect assumption.

Part 2: Lucina in Range
Once you are able to close the gap you have various options. Now normally, one might think that placing Mega Main above you would be beneficial; forcing juggle attempts. While Mega Man does have access to his other aerials he is pretty limited to covering what's below him. For example, his Dair's hit-box comes out in frame 23. Mega Man can also utilize his metal blade, z-drop it or throw it down. Mega Man can also double jump, utilize leaf shield and fast fall an air dodge. The leaf shield is able to prevent punishes on the ground. Mega Man can also try to DI away and fast fall a N-air which comes out on frame 2. Mega Man can also start utilizing his up-b multiple times depending on the stage to escape juggle situations. Again patience is a virtue. Lucina has the tools to respond to each situation. If Mega Man uses his leaf shield and fast falls an air dodge try to punish him in the air after the air dodge. If he utilizes the Metal Blade, you can move out of it's range by observing it's trajectory then punish accordingly.

Mega Man players rely on zoning their opponents. If you get too close for comfort they might try to roll, jump out of reach. They can also grab you and throw you away, or land an attack to achieve the same effect. A good read unto the option they choose can allow you to rack up percentage. Try to maintain Mega-Man at the distances your sword covers. If Mega-Man does leave that range, do not rush him down to try and regain this distance. You will be facing Mega Man's projectiles again by this point and if you are not careful they can punish you and get some damage on you rather quickly.

Part 3: Off Stage Game
If a Mega Man player is off stage, try to KO him at high percents with your bair or fair. In comparison to Mega Man's moves Lucina's Fair and Bair are faster than Mega Man's Fair by 3 and 2 frames respectively. On the other hand, Mega Man's Bair's hit-box comes out on frame 4. That means that his Bair is faster than our Fair and Bair by 2 and 3 frames respectively. So make sure to take note if Mega Man's back is facing you. On the subject of Mega Man's Bair, be careful when recovering from a low angle and close to the stage. Mega Man will try and look to stage-spike you with his Bair; as mentioned earlier its a fast move so it can connect easily if timed correctly.

Part 4: Lucina above Mega-Man
Mega-Man players have a lot of options to harass a Lucina that is above them. U-Air can be spammed to try to catch Lucina off-guard by this projectile based move. Lucina is limited when above an opponent. Her Dair is risky to utilize when falling into the ground as it has a lot of landing lag. Additionally, Mega-Man's U-Smash is a great move and it definitely hurts. Try to force your way out of this situation.

Part 5: Getting the Kill
I will have to get back to you guys on this as I have yet to find a reliable way to get kills on Mega-Man. It is very difficult. If any of you have input please be sure to add it. On another note, you can punish Mega Man after he uses his Smash attacks since they are relatively unsafe. Lucina's forward smash can be used in this situation to get the kill.

Part 6: Miscellaneous Tips
Make sure to ban out DK64 and Duck Hunt stages. Mega Man can camp on the top platforms making it extremely difficult to Lucina to get damage on Mega-Man after he has racked up damage against you. They will look to run the timer down and win by percentage lead.

Counter is a good tool to use against Mega Man's crash bomb since a lot of Mega Man players attempt to force you to shield and grab you. It also works against Leaf shield since it beats most of his options outside of grab.

This was a pretty general look into what I can recall from the Match-up at the moment. There might be some observations that I have made that are incorrect or not optimal. Feel free to correct me if that is the case. Otherwise, I hope this helps give an insight to how Mega-Man will play against you.

40:60

EDIT: Updated with more information. Removed the double up-b misinformation.

 

[sphenco]

On killing the Blue Bomber . .

He can't die.

Good luck.

 

[CopShowGuy]

A little known fact on Mega Man is that he can re-use his Up-B after the dog has disappeared. Be careful if Mega Man forces you to go low. He might be waiting to return to the stage by doing his Up-B twice and placing you in the disadvantageous position.

That doesn't seem quite accurate. He can only use his recovery move once in the air. An exception to this is if he uses it on stage and then bounces off of the grounded Rush a second time. He'll be able to use Rush in the air with his second jump in tact after that. I guess that counts as Mega Man touching the ground. I use that method quite frequently to escape my opponent's respawn invincibility without losing too many of my options.

 

[Locuan]

EDIT: It might have been that he was hit by something that we did not notice. That or a glitch.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think there's a misconception here.

Mega cannot upB twice off stage without the opponent hitting him.

onstage, you can upB, leaving Rush standing there. You can then fall and bounce a 2nd time on him, which refreshing both your 2nd jump and upB. I also should mention that you don't have to wait for Rush to upB again in this manner (he just disappears and pops back in with the new upB).

The only way to use upB again is to 2nd bounce on rush or land/grab a ledge.


Now that I'm thinking about it... I'm wondering if you could upB into the underside of a stage like Lylat and fast-fall fast enough to 2nd bounce before rush leaves. That would be pretty cool.

 

[Locuan]

@ Fenrir VII that seems to be the case. For now I'll assume he was hit by something that we did not notice unless someone is able to recreate a similar effect.

 

[Donut Steel]

Hi there Lucina players. Humble Megamain here, ready and willing to offer what little advice I can. Although that said, just about anything I could offer to the conversation is pretty much overshadowed by this:

Alright, I don't normally do this since I usually have little experience on a match-up but this time it's one of the match-ups I played the most in friendlies and in the tournament I participated in this past weekend. This is assuming Mega-Man without customs.

Observations:

Part 1: Mega Man's projectiles
Mega-Man has a lot of tools to keep Lucina away. B, Side B, forward smash in some rare situations, Pellets, in both grounded and aerial versions. Lucina needs to be patient to close the gap. As @Zano mentioned, pellets are an incredible move. As an example, they stop projectiles such as Robin's Arc Thunder, they stop your forward momentum, etc. A walking Lucina is the best Lucina in this case. It sucks being in the dash animation just to have a pellet stop all of your momentum and get punished by it. As for the B, and Side B, there are a few tools you can utilize to get around them somewhat ok-ish. Short Hop air dodge is always something to consider, you can also shield. You need to be careful when shielding Mega-Man's B since it has multiple hit-boxes. Shield drop too early and you will get hit by B. Also, you need to not rely on shielding this move too often. Good Mega-Man players can utilize it to bait you into shielding so they can land a grab. You can also attempt to catch the metal gear but again the Mega-Man player may be utilizing it to cut off your access to A moves. Mix up your defensive options as to keep them guessing and punish them for the incorrect assumption.

Part 2: Lucina in Range
Once you are able to close the gap you have various options. Now normally, one might think that placing Mega Main above you would be beneficial; forcing juggle attempts. While Mega Man does have access to his other aerials he is pretty limited to covering what's below him. For example, his Dair's hit-box comes out in frame 23. Mega Man can also utilize his metal blade, z-drop it or throw it down. Mega Man can also double jump, utilize leaf shield and fast fall an air dodge. The leaf shield is able to prevent punishes on the ground. Mega Man can also try to DI away and fast fall a N-air which comes out on frame 2. Mega Man can also start utilizing his up-b multiple times depending on the stage to escape juggle situations. Again patience is a virtue. Lucina has the tools to respond to each situation. If Mega Man uses his leaf shield and fast falls an air dodge try to punish him in the air after the air dodge. If he utilizes the Metal Blade, you can move out of it's range by observing it's trajectory then punish accordingly.

Mega Man players rely on zoning their opponents. If you get too close for comfort they might try to roll, jump out of reach. They can also grab you and throw you away, or land an attack to achieve the same effect. A good read unto the option they choose can allow you to rack up percentage. Try to maintain Mega-Man at the distances your sword covers. If Mega-Man does leave that range, do not rush him down to try and regain this distance. You will be facing Mega Man's projectiles again by this point and if you are not careful they can punish you and get some damage on you rather quickly.

Part 3: Off Stage Game
If a Mega Man player is off stage, try to KO him at high percents with your bair or fair. In comparison to Mega Man's moves Lucina's Fair and Bair are faster than Mega Man's Fair by 3 and 2 frames respectively. On the other hand, Mega Man's Bair's hit-box comes out on frame 4. That means that his Bair is faster than our Fair and Bair by 2 and 3 frames respectively. So make sure to take note if Mega Man's back is facing you. On the subject of Mega Man's Bair, be careful when recovering from a low angle and close to the stage. Mega Man will try and look to stage-spike you with his Bair; as mentioned earlier its a fast move so it can connect easily if timed correctly.

Part 4: Lucina above Mega-Man
Mega-Man players have a lot of options to harass a Lucina that is above them. U-Air can be spammed to try to catch Lucina off-guard by this projectile based move. Lucina is limited when above an opponent. Her Dair is risky to utilize when falling into the ground as it has a lot of landing lag. Additionally, Mega-Man's U-Smash is a great move and it definitely hurts. Try to force your way out of this situation.

Part 5: Getting the Kill
I will have to get back to you guys on this as I have yet to find a reliable way to get kills on Mega-Man. It is very difficult. If any of you have input please be sure to add it. On another note, you can punish Mega Man after he uses his Smash attacks since they are relatively unsafe. Lucina's forward smash can be used in this situation to get the kill.

Part 6: Miscellaneous Tips
Make sure to ban out DK64 and Duck Hunt stages. Mega Man can camp on the top platforms making it extremely difficult to Lucina to get damage on Mega-Man after he has racked up damage against you. They will look to run the timer down and win by percentage lead.

Counter is a good tool to use against Mega Man's crash bomb since a lot of Mega Man players attempt to force you to shield and grab you. It also works against Leaf shield since it beats most of his options outside of grab.

This was a pretty general look into what I can recall from the Match-up at the moment. There might be some observations that I have made that are incorrect or not optimal. Feel free to correct me if that is the case. Otherwise, I hope this helps give an insight to how Mega-Man will play against you.

40:60

EDIT: Updated with more information. Removed the double up-b misinformation.

That said, I will note that Lucina's close range options seem much better than Megaman's. It's kind of an awkward position, but Lucina can outrange Mega's U-Smash, U-tilt and D-Smash. I'd bet she could probably out space the D-tilt too. It feels as though the Lucina/Megaman matchup is kind of an awkward one for our favourite Trunks-inspired princess. You'll need to rely on spacing out Megaman's close range options while also staying weary of his projectiles. Megaman's slippery, though, the note about using Up-B to escape juggling is especially relevant. I would recommend going for off the stage kills or trying to catch your opponent while they're trying to get back on the ledge. Hell, try your best to stage spike with Lucina's own Up-B, I can guarantee that Megaman probably won't be getting back after one of those. Be wary of approaches from above, Mega's got some decent options to cover the space above him.

Outside of that, I'm afraid I'm not much help. Hell, I'm probably not much help already. Sorry I can't offer any more.

 

[Locuan]

I had not seen the Lucina/Trunks parallelism for some reason, it's definitely there! Thanks for your input by the way. I had missed the up-b stage spike possibilities as well.

I changed my text color to red. Let's see how this works.

 

[Shaya]

Respect mega's grab, it's annoying and it's (in my experiences thus far) his only zone breaking tool against Lucina.

SH rising air dodge into a landing aerial is exceptionally strong for dealing with mega, he doesn't really have that mid-height or above option that he approaches or pokes with and oos options for relatively well spaced aerials are generally low/not a big problem.

Once mega realises how silly easy/quickly Lucina can get in with that, that's when he starts to play extremely grab + gear centric.

iono, it's probably megas favour a little but swords are surprisingly useful against a character of mega's height + lack of angled (45 degrees/etc) options.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys! I would like to thank the Mega Man mains for all their input on this match-up. Moving on, this discussion period we face off against Zero Suit Samus! Lets get started!

 

[Shaya]

Up-B out of shield from ZSS is a really large problem, one of those "misattack at 80% and die reliably".
It's very easy for ZSS to punish a lot of Lucina's lag in general.

Thinking minimum 60:40 ZSS advantage. Could be worse.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

ZSSamus main here, we can force you to approach, that alone is quite an advantage. ZSSamus has one of the most brutal, if not the most brutal punishing options in the game, so you want to play it rather save, especially while approaching.
ZSS has a lot of laggy moves though that you want to punish.
That includes our dAir, dSpecial with kick, sSpecial, uSpecial, nSpecial (try to get close and punish this with SH approaches), uTilt (one of our favourite moves, very laggy when missed), uSmash (watch out, huge and long hitbox) and sSmash (watch out for the second hit).
Juggling you with uAir into uSpecial is our most favourite and most flashy thing to do. If we do it correctly you can't even do anything about it, but if my memory doesn't fail me, your nAir comes out pretty fast so you could punish any uAir misses with that instead of air dodging but you should know that better than I do anyway.
Our killing options are uAir > uSpecial (kills crazy early), dThrow > uAir (try to DI away to make followups harder, this will combo even above 200%), SH nair FF > dSpecial Kick (you won't see this often and it's very percent dependant), nSpecial > dSpecial Kick (spikes and kills way below 100% near the ledge), bThrow > dSpecial Kick (very percent depandant, DI down to avoid), dSpecial groundpound > uSpecial, nAir FF > uSpecial (could kill at lower percents near the ledge, won't combo on higher percents), nSpecial > uSpecial, dSmash > uSpecial, dSmash > fSmash and of course every kill move on it's own including bAir.

You see it's a long list. The twist is that you want to keep the pressure high (because we have a hard time dealing with it) while staying save enough to not get punished. ZSS generally wants to keep you away and and get out of neutral asap because that isn't exactly our strong point.

Expect a lot of zAirs, nSpecials, spaced SH FF nAirs, spaced dSmashes and grab setups like nSpecial > grab (don't block, rather roll or spot dodge) in the neutral game.

 

[pichuthedk]

It definite feels like 67.5-32.5: for zss whenever I Play lucina's(a lot of them not so good though).

Couple things I noticed when I'm zss is that counter is generally laughable unless you are on the ground /low % s after being down thrown(timing seems perfect and i like always get the counter on the up air follow ups if I'm the lucina).

Laser is obviously a huge problem since you can't always evade the grab follow up.

Down b has 3 different properties you need to be aware of in order to punish (the not so smart zero suits anyways)

1.if she doesn't kick it will footstool /implant you in the ground. After that animation she exaggerates how tough that was and is uMable to act while she's landing (whether she can act before the ground is varied off of height of her

footstool). During that part if your gonna punish her it is imperative you hit her before she lands, also her air movement speed is significantly better the avg/normal. As lucina I like to shield it -> walk up fsmash (don't be greedy and charge it xD).
Or you can jump attack her during flip jump I do nairs if not smashes.

2. The kick obvious issues but when she connects the kick off anyone/thing she bounces upwards and into a crouching position till she hits the ground ¥
(Again like footstool she can if high enough when she kicked be able to act before hitting the ground).
However she will always go to the same distance aND can't move horizontally at all. Same punish with f smash or nair/fair or if your feeling lucky sh approaching shield breaker xD.

3. Spike which is death off stage, in order for the kick she does to be a spike zss must hit you with the outermost hit box.

Not sure how to continue but in anycase special notes.
-Laser causes you to slide so if your on bf watch your footing or your potentially asking to be laser'd for a force get up.

-if your at the edge and zss dash attacks you we will always go behind you don't just standing grab upsmash seems like optimal punish.

-Lasers commitment level scales with the ZSS's discretion, meaning she doesn't have to fully commit to laser in case anyone doesn't know unlike brawl zss can let go when ever and the laser will fire, obviously only difference is the size/speed.
it will be all small fast lasers until she fully charges it.

-easy edge guard for dumb ZSS's would be hit them off -> watch lucina brush her hair like Marth while waiting for zss -> jump and nair her off again when she flip jumps (aim for the apex of her flip jump) -> jump/ run off and fair her.

-from my perspective as lucina I really like the dtilts, dancing blade at times like the edge, back hit of up air to up tilts at low % especially when they think dair will save them.

One last note you ladies should try to not chase zss off stage when she's knocked off or you guys might end up like this captain
falcon I murdered the other day.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-plW1mlzsyE&feature=youtu.be

Omg ninja edit very important zss fully charged laser doesn't just let her kick you she can flip jump and implant you -> Down smash up b if you don't mash very well and she may get the up b even if she sees you mashing.

 

[roymustang1990-]

Pretty hellish match up .I think it's 70:30 in zss's favor. She just has better tools that tear us apart. @_@

 

[HeoandReo]

4/6 ZSS's favour at best for Lucina. I don't feel it's too much worse than that though. Maybe 35/65 but this matchup doesn't scream 3/7 to me.

It's a bit rough because ZSS pretty much can do everything Lucina does only better and with a paralyzer for free setups, but there are certain bits of her kit that you can abuse. Like Tobi said ZSS has a few staples that can be punished either with good approaches (blaster) or with proper positioning. (fsmash) Flip Jump is slow and laggy when ZSS finishes it, but it does a lot of damage and can stun you as well so proceed with caution. And if the ZSS is any good, she's probably not going to use dair because it's not really a good air option, but if she does that means a free punish for you because it's super laggy and pretty easy to shield. If you're really gutsy you can intercept with counter, uair, utilt or even usmash.

Aerial approaches work OK if only because you really want to get past that blaster. You can also powershield it, but I like attacking in the air versus ZSS since that lets me start putting on pressure and most ZSSes I fight don't really have the ability to defend themselves from air-to-ground assault. I usually favour short hop fair/nair into Dancing Blade to cross up depending on where they end up going.

Her grab is slow, but it covers a lot of ground and can grab on the way back. Punishing it is a bit risky because of the last point and it can even prevent some escape options if you need to get out of there. Unlike other tether grabs, this is one that you really have to respect so keep an eye out for it.

ZSS is possible to gimp, since her upB doesn't really cover much distance horizontally or vertically. You have to deal with flip jump and take away her second jump though, so it's a bit risky but it's possible to take a stock early with this method.

Generally, you want to space really well against ZSS so that you can get good punishes on her while preventing her from doing the same to you. Get in there when she's forced to commit to something and respect all her tools in the meantime. You have to play pretty patiently in this match, knowing when to switch from offense to defense.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Brutal. Unarguably in ZSS's favor. This MU forces a hell lot of patience if you want to win. To date, I've only won once against a competent ZSS.

 

[EnGarde]

Don't rely on empty short hops for spacing/baiting. Zair has crazy range.

The biggest difficulty with edgeguarding ZSS is that we have a versatile selection of recovery options, 2 of which don't force us into helpless, that allows us to mix up recovery. I can recover high with flip jump, horizontally with tether (note that we don't get ledge invincibility until we actually touch the ledge, so you can still edgeguard the extended tether), and vertically with boost kick.

You need to be comfortable with your reading ability, and know how to shield well. It's hard to deal a lot of shield damage as ZSS, and our grab has such commitment, so patience and spacing on the ground is key.

Also, I lurk streams. >.< So, I can share this. Here are 3 matches of LiquidKen's Marth (not Lucina) vs ZSS (@Daisy101, is this you?) , and Ken wasn't able to win (not even close). Please note this is a netplay friendly, not a tournament set.

www.twitch.tv/liquidken/v/3641886?t=1h37m45s

 

[pichuthedk]

Aerial approaches from lucina get stuffed hard from up smash / up air (even timed up tilts) . Even after all that you have to wary of random Yolo boost kicks from zss be ready to di at a moments notice which isn't the easiest when your forced to keep committing to pressurING her unless you have a lead.

Walking and Shielding is definitely key but you lucinas have a sexy walk speed I'm sure you all know the drill xD.

 

[HeoandReo]

Aerial approaches from lucina get stuffed hard from up smash / up air (even timed up tilts) . Even after all that you have to wary of random Yolo boost kicks from zss be ready to di at a moments notice which isn't the easiest when your forced to keep committing to pressurING her unless you have a lead.

Walking and Shielding is definitely key but you lucinas have a sexy walk speed I'm sure you all know the drill xD.

You guys are right. I probably haven't played against good ZSSes where I am. Even so spacing is crucial in this matchup, just like any other with Lucina, and I try to do that when approaching - trying to prevent ZSS capitalizing in response by hitting at the very end of my range.

I do agree on the general gameplan for Lucina though - just being really careful and patient the whole time because ZSS is fast enough to do really nasty things to her. Lucina generally has to play really defensive against faster characters in my experience.

 

[Sillybananas]

Zzs feels a lot like the Diddy MU, and I'd say most of the reasons that make Diddy threatening can be applied here.
Of course I'm referring to the reliable combo and kill game mostly.

The projectile can force an approach, but in terms of being neutral, I'd say it's more of a 55:45
Her neutral b travels too slow to spam and really provoke anything, the real threat is from retreating side-b's/zairs. That alone gives her the spacing she needs to avoid short hop aerials/ most of our kit.

No doubt we'll be bringing the fight to her, but a large part of that this game is pressuring rather than actually approaching. I know this isn't an exact answer to the MU and that it might sound like cheese, but conditioning is huge here. Create situations that build predictable habits out of the ZzS. I'm speaking from little experience actually playing against any ZzS, but I've seen and studied enough to understand the char. The idea of your approach should threaten enough to silicate a punishable response.

- (in neutral) The biggest tool we have in this match up is our shield. With her less than average grab, ZzS will more than likely be using aerials or attacks in general over a grab, giving us the edge we need to start conditioning. Yes poke is still a thing, but the point is to approach with the shield, not use it in neutral and let it diminish.

- (in neutral) Note that her kit in general has very little lag aside from specials/grab, which can sometimes cause a player to get ahead of themselves. A patient ZzS can cause more trouble than a aggressive one, but should they be throwing out moves left and right, tilts, upb, and forwardb are our #1 options. Her kit lacks real priority, abuse that. Like others have stated before, even for other match-ups, you really don't to be in the air. If you do find yourself against a ZzS willing to play safe, well... Good luck lol. I never said this was easy or simple.

Her recovery is very good, but not invincible. A big issue with most ZzS players is that they are way too predictable with the down b off stage. Even though it is rather safe, we should be preemptively be spacing for it. If you haven't already, play a few games as ZzS and down-b a few times to really learn the distance it covers. You'll be surprised, and you can ready those uairs and possibly fairs next time. If they up-b back, the distance is not great, and they will most likely need to slide on the lip to get back, use this to block with counter, or even bair.

Sorry if this doesn't help or make sense, but tldr: take a walk in her shoes to learn the ropes and a good defense is the best offense. Like I said, feels a lot like the Diddy MU. Not as hopeless though, I find a steady mind and sword can definitely hold their own. 60:40 ZzS on a bad day ^^

 

[pichuthedk]

Well I'm glad you were able to take the time to " become the hunter" so to speak a few things though down b actually is a mind game in itself , due to the fact that she can choose where her landing point will be.

I'm sure everyone must have seen at some point by now she can go as far 2 and 1/2 a side b length or go as short the middle of her down smash range (literally barely moving horizontally).

Random thing to consider I'm not sure if the people I've faced have just sucked or I just had the right conditions met each time (rage , their % and move stale queue)

I've landed what looked like a mini dash attack lock on zss and then a Mario once.

I kinda feel like if your not overzealous in the neutral game that lucina has that 60:40 so being in ZSS's grill and pressuring her via down tilts or up tilts dancing blade to juggle her and punish dumb ZSS's that spam dair is imperative for that extra %.

Nice mixup for bad ones is to grab them near ledge and pummel release deciding to either try a dtilts gimp(down b literally almost delivers her to you) or run off Yolo nair/ fair(try to intercept tether with nair or possivlpossibly dancing blade 1-> dolphin slash stage spike.

Last useless thing I have to say I guess is if you guys are looking for counter kills especially on fsmash remember to aim for that second kick really makes or breaks if her impulsive attempt to smash you will be worth it.

If your close to zss and she up bs try up and through her and away if your far (ie you got stunned from Down smash whe the it's max range or point blank she can up b u)

Sorry for long post just play both chars and have done both match ups (also waiting to start work again T.T)zss slaughters lucinas who dash to much.

 

[Locuan]

Alright everyone thanks for your input! This discussion period we face off against Little Mac. Let's get started!

 

[GunBlaze]

Alright everyone thanks for your input! This discussion period we face off against Little Mac. Let's get started!

The floor is his turf. Dat F-Tilt and armored Smashes tho.

 

[HeoandReo]

I'd say this is 4/6 Mac. Absolute best would be 45/55, but Mac has the advantage overall. I've dabbled in a little bit of Mac, so I'm somewhat confident in this ratio this time. It's not a 'grab Mac and you win' sort of match - the trouble is actually getting it safely.

Lucina is kind of slow when it comes to the endlag of her attacks, and Mac can take full advantage of that. This is the lynchpin of the entire matchup. Lucina wants to space Mac really well and get him to the ledge, while Mac wants to bait attacks and commitments out of her so that he can punish them.

Lucina's goal is to get Mac offstage or at least work to reduce his ground dominance. Spacing him out as he approaches is a bit risky, but is her prime option. She can punish reckless approaches with Dancing Blade and other things to rack up damage, and if Mac is too close for comfort, upB out of shield works well unless he's jabbing.

If he has KO punch, DO NOT DO ANYTHING UNLESS YOU ARE SURE IT WILL HIT AND IT WILL WORK. Lucina's endlag is slow enough for Mac to come in and get the punch pretty much whenever he feels like it. Play really carefully when Mac is in this stage, although fortunately it doesn't take much to force him out of it.

Mac's goal is to not get grabbed. He doesn't want to stay close if he can't do it safely. Lucina's grab is decently ranged compared to most of the cast and she can send him off a good distance. A Mac should usually try to hit and run for Lucina - hit her when she makes a commitment with an attack, and keep away otherwise to watch out for her sword.

If Lucy grabs him she can keep him off the stage with her sword without much fuss. However, Mac can counter to punish your followup and recover, or if he's not sent too far he might even side B which can stuff what you're doing so don't be overzealous to strike immediately. If you think he'll do something, bait it out and punish that instead, maybe with another throw offstage.

Do try to be careful if Mac sends you offstage instead though. If he doesn't end up killing you outright, Mac can actually gimp Lucina with fair if he wants to risk it, since it sends her out too far and too low for her to make it back. This has happened to me before, so I'm inclined to warn you about it. (And incidentally I've done this lots of times using Mac)

Platforms are good for Lucina, since they can limit the influence that Mac has on the stage and force him to make predictable approaches. Little Mac is one of the more stage dependent characters by virtue of his traits, so keep this in mind when fighting against him.

Also try to get familiar with some of Mac's hitboxes and attack properties. His fsmash can sometimes whiff if you're right next to him since it travels a bit of distance, allowing you to potentially punish with a grab release combo or something. You can counter his smashes, but unless the timing is precise, it'll get into the super armour. Still an OK result though, since more damage on Mac still means it's easier to keep him off.

 

[Langston777]

hold dat shield

 

[eshu125]

I strongly believe this is waayy in lucina's favor. Like, at least 70/30. Playing rock paper scissors for little mac's life every time you send him off-stage, coupled with the edgeguarding options that lucina has, makes his advantages on the ground seem almost negligible.

 

[Venks]

Sup! Little Mac main here. Also wrote a bit about the match-up here.

They talk about the matchup in this video and say it's 8-2 in Little Mac's favor. I don't personally think Little Mac dominates the matchup anywhere near that hard. No matter how good Little Mac is against any character he's always two consecutive reads away from losing a stock at any percent. Between Lucina's fAir and Dolphin Slash, she can gimp Little Mac a lot easier than other characters can due to her impressive range.

But Lucina really has to put in the work to get Little Mac offstage. Her neutral game is pretty bad against him as she's all about controlling the stage. Little Mac is the third fastest character in the game so getting in the proper position to use her aerials safely can be difficult. I think Lucina's down-tilt is especially useful in this matchup due to how ground dependent Little Mac is, but if the move is used too much then it'll be beat out by super armor.

And yeah Lucina does not have the best recovery herself. Little Mac's down smash hits under the stage so with perfect timing he can knock Lucina away from the stage when she tries to use Dolphin Slash to recover. She's generally not getting a second chance if she gets knocked away from the ledge. Depending on percent of course.

 

[Funkermonster]

I strongly believe this is waayy in lucina's favor. Like, at least 70/30. Playing rock paper scissors for little mac's life every time you send him off-stage, coupled with the edgeguarding options that lucina has, makes his advantages on the ground seem almost negligible.

If you think this matchup is dominated by Lucy, you clearly haven't played a good Mac.

1. EVERYBODY can edgeguard him offstage, even himself. So for Lucy it's really not that super amazing. And having a horrid recovery alone isn't enough to just put the MU to your advantage. And as a Lucina player myself, I think its worth noting that Lucina's recovery is terrible too, and Mac's Down Smash can still beat her out of Dolphin Slash when she tries to recover with it as it hits below the stage with good timing and spacing, since Dolphin Slash doesn't always sweetspot the ledge.
2. What Mac has are safe moves, and plenty of them. Just when you think you can punish one of his whiffed moves, he'll end punishing your punish since his moves have way too little cooldown, AND he has Super Armor while you don't. Lucy's moves on the other hand, are not safe. Has so much endlag on her smash attack, and nearly every move she has other than Dtilt and Shield Breaker is pretty unsafe on shield. This is especially important against a quick guy like Mac, where the lack of hitlag modifiers are really gonna hurt you.
3. You both have counters, but Mac's counter is definitely stronger than yours with a higher damage multiplier and better knockback. Try to use shield breaker on him, and he'll make you eat **** for that. Your counter is still strong, but it's just his is better.
4. Given how much endlag she has on most of her attacks, she doesn't have as many options to avoid the KO Punch as some other characters do. You can't counter it (except the Air Version) and he can true combo into it from his Dtilt, quite possibly his Nair too.

In the End, I'd say [announcer voice] THE WINNER IS........

 

[Shaya]

I don't feel Mac's moves are "safe", what the hell.
If you think his smash attacks cannot be punished than you aren't playing against good players either.
Stuff like your forward and down tilts aren't that effective. Down tilt is short range in the match up and your first hit of ftilt at 4 frames is pitiful range for the (last time I saw frame data for it) mid-teen frame second hit. Dancing Blade and shield breaker's transcended priority can deal with all of your pokes mostly reactively outside your range.

Mac does not have answers to full hop rising retreating aerials. This is one of the few match ups in the game for Lucina (or Marth) where they're actually safe using their pokes because you aren't pressuring Lucina at a height you need to double jump for and for catching the landing you don't have shield as a sound tool due to general poor OoS options/no grab game (Lucina's antithesis is OoS options).

KO Punch is hard to get around for her. Dancing Blade aerial stalls are the only bet (or platform stages). Fortunately Lucina has the nice options for Mac's KO punch, with up throw inducing tumble at 0% to not needing much damage for aerials to do the same.
Down Smash edge guarding is a real thing and can definitely take stocks. Lucina doesn't have a move as reliable to hit characters, even Mac, from on stage to kill the recovery as they don't reach below the stage well at all. Counter/Fsmash/Dtilt can though.

I think it may be up to 60:40 in Mac's favour, but this is otherwise one of Lucina's best match ups in the game tool wise.

 

[Langston777]

He didn't really do a good job explaining the MU because for some reason he thinks we are going to try to counter pkt2.

wait, why wouldn't we? In my entire experience fighting ness the worse that happens is that ness flies right through you and both players are unharmed. past 50% if it lands offstage the counter will kill ness.

the ness i spar with is extremely flowchart but can Ness potentially hit Counter's recovery frames by delaying pkt2 enough? i figure you'd be able to react quite well enough to something like that.

 

[Venks]

I don't feel Mac's moves are "safe", what the hell.
If you think his smash attacks cannot be punished than you aren't playing against good players either.
Stuff like your forward and down tilts aren't that effective. Down tilt is short range in the match up and your first hit of ftilt at 4 frames is pitiful range for the (last time I saw frame data for it) mid-teen frame second hit. Dancing Blade and shield breaker's transcended priority can deal with all of your pokes mostly reactively outside your range.

Mac does not have answers to full hop rising retreating aerials. This is one of the few match ups in the game for Lucina (or Marth) where they're actually safe using their pokes because you aren't pressuring Lucina at a height you need to double jump for and for catching the landing you don't have shield as a sound tool due to general poor OoS options/no grab game (Lucina's antithesis is OoS options).

KO Punch is hard to get around for her. Dancing Blade aerial stalls are the only bet (or platform stages). Fortunately Lucina has the nice options for Mac's KO punch, with up throw inducing tumble at 0% to not needing much damage for aerials to do the same.
Down Smash edge guarding is a real thing and can definitely take stocks. Lucina doesn't have a move as reliable to hit characters, even Mac, from on stage to kill the recovery as they don't reach below the stage well at all. Counter/Fsmash/Dtilt can though.

I think it may be up to 60:40 in Mac's favour, but this is otherwise one of Lucina's best match ups in the game tool wise.

Little Mac is pretty safe on his attacks, but it's dependent on spacing. If Little Mac is using down tilt from max range then Lucina can punish with side special or jab if your timing is spot on.

Lucina can punish the first hit of Little Mac's forward tilt, but not if he's spacing so he only hits with the second hit. She also can't punish properly spaced side smash or up smash because they both have too much push back on block.

You say Little Mac doesn't have an answer to retreating aerials, but I did just post a video where Little Mac dashes in between them. Third fastest character has its perks. Not saying it's easy, but it is doable.

 

[eshu125]

Plenty of Little Mac's moves are punishable. F-tilt is really his only really good option against you but, as I stated before, getting just one grab makes up for it.

I know that little mac can get gimped by virtually everyone, but to deny that lucina doesn't have some of the best tools for doing so might indicate that perhaps you simply don't know how to play lucina the most effectively off-stage, rather than me not facing little mac players that know how to play him effectively on the ground. She will always beat out his side-b, and can also fair combo him at earlier/mid percents with correct spacing. Fighting little mac off-stage is just a simply flowchart and if it's followed 50% of the time he gets hit (mostly thrown) off-stage he is going to lose a stock. Simply get in position to cover a high option, and if he doesn't do it then you either fair him or wait, ff fair, then recover. If he dodges the low option you can up-b as he's recovering and if he misses the tech he's dead. If he doesn't miss the tech, you're back on stage and once again in an advantageous position to keep him from getting stage control and resetting into another ledgeguard opportunity.

I can see the matchup being 55-45 in lucina's favor at worst, but to argue that little mac has an advantage is downright heresy!

 

[Locuan]

Hey everyone! Thanks you all for your input. This Discussion Period, we focus on the battle against the King of Koopas! Let's get started!

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Thanks for paging the king of evil. Hoping @ J Jerodak is willing to give his 2 cents as well even though he mostly experimented against Emblem Lord from the Marth section.

Bowser is a very even fight for Lucina. While Bowser has tools to punish any properly guessed over-commitment (much like the Mac matchup), we have no super armor or spectacular zone-breaking tool (pretty much just our dash attack) to use against Lucina's maze of sword hit boxes and shield breaker mixups. At best, Bowser must play carefully to maintain stage control with simple shield, pivot, and firebreath tactics, all of which are easy for Lucina to pressure through. Bowser can also mess with your spacing, as his hurt box shrinks when he uses Fortress. This can force an aerial to whiff when it normally wouldn't have. Both characters have great options once the neutral game breaks down, and each have good off-stage games against each other. Truly, just like the Bowser vs. Marth matchup, a very intense fight with several notable differences between FD (your advantage) and Battlefield (Bowser's advantage). KO difference is negligible if you're taking full advantage of your off-stage power.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Seconding the equal aspect. Bowser has enough tools to keep Lucina guessing, but at the same time, there are things that come out somewhat slowly from Bowser to be punished.

I like this matchup precisely because of it's equality.

 

[Jerodak]

I feel like this is practically the same match-up, so i'm going to pretty much going to be reiterating a post I made in this thread here http://smashboards.com/threads/journey-of-the-star-lord-vs-bowser.377696/ with a few little tweaks.

This is very much a momentum-based match, and the way it goes down is that the first character to get sent offstage has a major disadvantage because neither character has the best recovery and both are good at edgeguarding. Both characters are solid in the neutral and neither one has a single option that the other can't feasibly answer. It really all comes down to which player is better at playing footsies and can maintain their composure the best and be the least predictable when sent offstage. The only reason I'd say that Lucina does not do quite as well as Marth is the lack of a Tipper, because Bowser does not need to worry about Early K.Os from Tipper Fsmash or anything. However, Lucina's damage is more consistent than Marth's so her average damage over time is going to be better, which might make up for that but I'm not sure, in either case. I still don't think that's quite enough of a reason to say that Bowser has any kind of advantage; I feel like this is an even match-up.

 

[HeoandReo]

I used to think that the match was a bit more in Lucina's favour, but I'd have to agree with everyone else on this being squarely even. Although I'm a bit of a pessimist matchup-wise for her, I want to say that Lucina has a slight advantage. However, I would say that her advantage is very slight. (Probably like 52.5/47.5) Both characters have weaknesses that the other can press an advantage over. Bowser's fatness means Lucina can press and maintain pressure if she gets advantage, although Bowser has some good tools that can keep Lucina out like his jab and tilts. That and he kills much earlier.

One thing that I notice when I play Bowsers is that I find that he has very few options to reliably escape combos and juggles. Partly because of his size, but also because his actual options for escape aren't that great if you're directly below him. Dair and Bowser Bomb are really bad options for escaping with (Unless BB catches a ledge) because of endlag and predictability. Also, you can counter them really easily for big damage or a kill. Fast fall fire breath is good to return to neutral, but Bowser's low air speed still runs the risk of Lucina catching him.

Because of this type of scenario, I agree that one of the key aspects of this matchup is stage control, and what stage you end up playing on. On a place like FD, Lucina wins because Bowser gets few options to safely escape combos and stage control is a bit easier for her because of its size. On Battlefield, Bowser wins because the platforms mean he doesn't have to use his bad escape options (or they're at least not hilariously risky) and the smaller space is more conducive for Bowser to rack up damage and press his power with.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser spams up angled ftilt whole game.

Lucina tries to counterpoke whole game.


Best matchup ever. 50-50

 

[warionumbah2]

I think the Matchups in lucinas favor because she has more range and kill power. Even though he got heavier slightly, Hes still light which is good and he lost a lot of kill power. Lucina is also faster which is good. I see it as 60to40 in lucinas favor

This is all wrong, MK hasn't lost his kill power if anything he's gained more. Shuttle loop OOS,F-smash,D-smash 2nd hit,U-smash,Dimensional Cape,Bair and Nair. Lucina also isn't faster than MK in terms of running speed or in attack frames, MK is clocked within top 10 dash speed he also has better grab game and dash attack that all link into other moves.

MK has good options on the ground: Dash grab,Dash attack,Rising Dair,Mach Tornado. Not to mention solid OOS tools such as Nado that can dish out 22% if fully connected and for killing he can shuttle loop, this is very useful against Lucina as her moves aren't that safe on shield. So Lucina loses on ground, i agree her range is far better in the air or ground but like Marth her aerials have horrible end lag and her tools on ground like Marth isn't very good which you're all aware of anyway.

Its a shame this MU got thrown under the rug. If this counts as spam tell me since you're talking about Bowser atm. Thought i needed to address this.

She loses the neutral game, can't kill as early nor as reliably,MK has a guaranteed shuttle loop follow up after dash attack at high percent, can't edgeguard MK due to diverse recovery options, MK can intercept her recovery with Nair, Mk deals more damage his Tornado does more damage than her F-smash and SB fully charged or not. All MK has to do is stay just out her range and punish anything that is remotely laggy which is pretty much all her ground moves besides Dtilt. Lucina's fastest move is Dtilt which is 3 frames slower than Mk fastest ground move which is Dtilt but unlike hers nhis can trip and set up combo's.

Her options when she's being combo'd is bad, only thing she can do when being juggled by uair is airdodge or counter. Air Dodge can get punished HARD as in 18-22% from one move, her counter will mostly whiff because Mk will be right under her and she swings her sword infront of her.

Pros for MK
+ Faster frame attacks all around
+ Better mobility
+ Better ground options
+ Better off stage game
+ Better punish tools
+ Better recovery
+ Reliable kill set ups
+ More kill moves
+ Smaller hurtbox

Cons for MK
- Less Range
- Lightweight

I kid you not that's his only cons in this MU, 60:40 in MK favor if OP reads this edit please include this in the OP since you won't go back to discussing MK again and there were no valid insights to the MU.

 

[Locuan]

The MK match-up might not be up for this discussion period but you are free to discuss any match-ups in this thread @ warionumbah2