Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[heytallman]

Last time I played a DDD in tournament I 2-0'd him. Granted, he wasn't that good, but Nair really can do well against DDD. When you get DDD offstage, throw PK thunders at him. If he's low, he either has to eat the thunder or airdodge, which makes him have to use another jump, most of the time. If we can get him to up B, that's practically a free upsmash for us, which is DEADLY at higher percents, and just a free 23% at lower percents.

Not to mention if you somehow end up far from them and near a Waddle Doo, say hi to a free 40% recovery (which really no DDD should let happen, but we can dream, can't we?)

I agree 55-45 Lucas' favor. He can CG us, after all.

On an ending note, reflecting a Gordo with Fsmash is far too sexy.

 

[Tyr_03]

Matchup numbers mean almost nothing to me anymore. Winning depends far more on who knows the individual matchup better and obviously, skill level. There just aren't the **** matchups that there were in Melee. No character is unbeatable for Lucas.

The only differentiations I make between matchups are "characters I understand and am strong against" and "characters I don't understand and am weak against."

 

[Neon Ness]

Matchup numbers mean almost nothing to me anymore. Winning depends far more on who knows the individual matchup better and obviously, skill level.

THANK YOU.​

I wish everyone would read this. Matchup discussions would be far less hostile.

That said, Diddy is a character that I still don't know how to handle... I thought jumping and relying on aerials to avoid bananas would be the simple solution, but, not so, apparently. His dash attack opens up a lot of options, so reading the opponent is especially important--it could be an opportunity for Lucas to pivot grab. That's about the extent of my knowledge, though. I seriously need to find someone who plays him, offline or online.

 

[ToxiCrow]

EDIT: ninja'd by Neon

i think numbers are stupid. imo, i think it should be

-advantage
-slight advantage
-even
-slight disadvantage
-disadvantage

 

[HiddenBowser]

lucas isnt going to hit jiggs with pkf and i def think its it jiggs favor

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Bowyer is the best player in the world. Have you seen 'Patience'? That settles everything.

 

[heytallman]

How to beat Diddy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKcL7g3DiIo&feature=channel_page

lawls, this is one of the funniest matches ever. Because there's no way I should beat fliphop that bad.

 

[Nitrix]

Diddy seems like he can give Lucas trouble. I don't really see anything that Lucas has that is really annoying to Diddy. The only thing that I find scary as a Diddy main are Lucas's D-Smash and combos into F-Smash.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Sorry to fill your MU thread but I was suggested to ask this here too:

Hello Lucas boards! Zeldas just started discussing Lucas as a team partner and we´d highly appreciate your help!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232505

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Sorry to fill your MU thread but I was suggested to ask this here too:

The url didn't work. ah well. I'll make my way over there.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Yeah I noticed that too, it´s fixed now.

 

[Maniclysane]

i guess u forgot PKFire.

I'll let Bowyer, a recognized player with a good tourny record, someone who has beat top level players answer this question:

lucas isnt going to hit jiggs with pkf and i def think its it jiggs favor

because you're not looking at our Nair and combo ability. and our jabs our faster than anything DDD has at a close range.

You really think Lucas has big enough jab range to beat out D3's grab, practically an instant 30%? If Jab's truly worked like that, Ike and Captain Falcon would be higher than they are now.

Last time I played a DDD in tournament I 2-0'd him. Granted, he wasn't that good, but Nair really can do well against DDD.

I'd like to know the D3 player. Just curious. A link to the tourny thread would be nice too. You shouldn't bring up bad players in matchup discussions anyways.

When you get DDD offstage, throw PK thunders at him. If he's low, he either has to eat the thunder or airdodge, which makes him have to use another jump, most of the time. If we can get him to up B, that's practically a free upsmash for us, which is DEADLY at higher percents, and just a free 23% at lower percents.

D3 is a pretty heavy guy. I wouldn't expect to get him offstage too often. Now I know why the D3 was probably bad; he tried to land on the stage with his up-b. Most of the time, if D3 is that low, he goes a little above the edge then cancels it, grabbing the ledge.

ok
The matchups is 55-45 our favor not theirs.
Waddle Dee does NOT go through PKF at all.
Bair is good but our PKF spaces better.
Every grab is not 30% more like 20% or something. DDD has a Ftilt out of grab amzing right.

I was wrong about the Waddle Dee, I meant that if they both connect, the PK fire ends and the waddle doo is still walking around, alive. This was my fault. You forget with a PK fire, you don't have a follow up. D3 will be using bair often and he will be able to connect the bairs. And again, you are ignoring grab releases. Dedede has a chaingrab that gives him 30% on you, and could ground break to a dtilt, and I haven't tested anything with air releases.

The jiggz matchup is our favor because we have PKF and our amazing ground game. PKF does go through pound but i've heard that rising pound can get around it. I don't know much about jiggzbut this trust me, our ground game beats jiggz by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar.

You don't know much about Jiggz you say? k. Sorry for responding to you.

 

[Wild ARMs]

I think everyone here forgets one thing about Lucas:
THE HAIR.

He doesn't even use gel! Who can wake up in the morning with THAT kind of awesomeness growing on top of them?

Sorry, just had to ease the tension a bit, no hostilities intended.

Although I main Lucas, I'm a bit neutral in this discussion. I think the problem is that both sides are misinformed of the other. What we really need for a match-up discussion is someone who really knows their stuff about both characters and is able to give an impartial statistic.

 

[Chuee]

D3 is a pretty heavy guy. I wouldn't expect to get him offstage too often. Now I know why the D3 was probably bad; he tried to land on the stage with his up-b. Most of the time, if D3 is that low, he goes a little above the edge then cancels it, grabbing the ledge.


You don't know much about Jiggz you say? k. Sorry for responding to you.

D3 will still get offstage a lot at high%.
Heres how the PKT works. You use PKT which pushes him away from the stage or if he airdodges lower. Anyways. He ran out of jumps. Up-B. You will get the usmash when he's hovering in the air not when he's falling down. Even if he tries grabbing the edge we can ledge hugg and you die.

I know a little about Jiggz. What I know is that she has a great *** aerial game and a **** ground game. Lucas has a bad air game but a good ground game. Jiggz can air camp all she wants but what happens when she falls down? She has to land on the ground so thats when lucas takes action. He can get a ftilt or jab depending on what jiggz does coming down. Airdodge= Jab. Aerial= Ftilt OoS. Jiggz has wall of pain too.
40-60 or 45-55 nothing more.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Maniclysane

1) My PKfire comment had nothing to do with jigglypuff at all. it was directed at your statement on how DDD's bair spaces us really well. our PKfire spaces DDD real well. and you fail at mocking me, because that wasnt even a question.
2) its not only our jabs that help us out. our Nair comes out quickly and racks up so much damage on DDD and we can do a bunch of other things out of it when it Auto-cancels; such as another nair, jab,ftilt, utilt,fsmash etc
3) not once did i say Lucas beats DDD. imo its even or a slight advantage going either way. the reason i responded the way i did not agree with almost anything you said.

the reason this match up is even/slight advantage is because D3 has a chaingrab on Lucas, but Lucas combo's D3.
regarding the jigglypuff match-up, i'll let someone more knowledgeable than take care of it.
and sorry if the way i responded to your previous post offended you

 

[ZMan]

against jiggs space fair, tilts, and smashes and be careful when using usmash and youu be fine. once you get past her novelty she's really easy

 

[HiddenBowser]

against jiggs space fair, tilts, and smashes and be careful when using usmash and youu be fine. once you get past her novelty she's really easy

n o

 

[Count]

I think the matchup is in diddy kong's favor (not by that wide of a margin). tyr and I have played once and I narrowly won, he is probably just as good or a better player overall than me though. So this is kinda how I base my assertion. Lucas seems to have a more difficult time avoiding the bananas than most, and lucas getting hit by a banana offstage seems to hinder him a fair amount.

Sorry for trolling, work is boring. Tyr come to sloth I'd love to MM/friendly you again :D, your lucas is amazing.

 

[Tyr_03]

I don't think I'm coming to Sloth. It's my nephew's birthday this weekend and I'm really burnt out from going to Columbus and Athens the past few weekends.

I've played Alphazealot a few times since we played last so maybe I'll have some actual experience against you this time lol. Aaaand I have some fun counterpicks to take you to. You've been warned lol.

Might be a while til we play though. I'm going to be in Boston at a music camp for most of June.

 

[Count]

That's sad about you being gone so long. EVERYBODY has good counterpicks against diddy, especially in the MW where every frickin stage is legal. As good as a character as diddy is, there's a lot of pressure on us to win game one because so many stages in the MW screw us so bad. But I can't wait until our next meeting , I'm sure it will be quite scary with your AZ experience.

 

[Maniclysane]

Maniclysane

1) My PKfire comment had nothing to do with jigglypuff at all. it was directed at your statement on how DDD's bair spaces us really well. our PKfire spaces DDD real well. and you fail at mocking me, because that wasnt even a question.
2) its not only our jabs that help us out. our Nair comes out quickly and racks up so much damage on DDD and we can do a bunch of other things out of it when it Auto-cancels; such as another nair, jab,ftilt, utilt,fsmash etc
3) not once did i say Lucas beats DDD. imo its even or a slight advantage going either way. the reason i responded the way i did not agree with almost anything you said.

the reason this match up is even/slight advantage is because D3 has a chaingrab on Lucas, but Lucas combo's D3.
regarding the jigglypuff match-up, i'll let someone more knowledgeable than take care of it.
and sorry if the way i responded to your previous post offended you

No problem, I was being kind of a douche. I read my post again and it's obvious I posted out of anger more than I did out of disagreement. Don't bring up points made by other players from months ago, because things change. Veril has only played and seen me on wifi, and no where else.

The problem with the jabs, is D3 is going to almost always go for a grab onstage. It has really big range, and is really hard to avoid. A D3 can ignore your jabs and just grab you. Never forget D3 lives longer than anyone with DI, and is going to live for a long time. Combo's are not going to ruin D3. Lucas is really light, so he has to make the best of everything in order to keep up his combos. What Luca's could do to possibly kill D3 safely, I don't know. The stick is a good kill move, u-smash is never going to hit a good player, dsmash I guess. I'd like to see a good Lucas beat a good D3. I really can't imagine lucas having an easy time killing D3, even with all the "Amazing" nair combo's he can do.

 

[Levitas]

reflex counterpicks DDD with lucas. And wins.

Lucas isn't light. He's solidly in the middle of the pack, and his small frame is advantageous.

Shields are really good, especially on characters that have poor mobility but good range like DDD. Lucas is effective at hitting shields until the person gets hit.

Dair leads into fsmash a lot of the time, fsmash is decent on its own, and you can actually dsmash or usmash DDD should you force an up b.

DDD's slow air movement makes PKT viable for offstage torment, and makes the fact that dsmash and usmash punish his up b more relevant.

 

[Kataefi]

I didn't really know where to post this, so I thought this thread would decent to tell you guys to hop over to this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242427

We're discussing the zelda vs lucas matchup so any input would be great!

 

[Attila_]

against jiggs space fair, tilts, and smashes and be careful when using usmash and youu be fine. once you get past her novelty she's really easy

jigglypuff 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpzhJ...A924E&index=12

jigglypuff 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A73-I...A924E&index=13

jigglypuff 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4yva...A924E&index=14

jigglypuff 4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXQ94...A924E&index=15

in the end i only won cause he kept running into my smashes... her aerials own lucas', and she gimps pretty easy too. all you can do is space, so lucas has to work waaay harder than jiggs does to get stuff done, putting it in her favor.

 

[prOAPC]

jigglypuff 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpzhJ...A924E&index=12

jigglypuff 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A73-I...A924E&index=13

jigglypuff 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4yva...A924E&index=14

jigglypuff 4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXQ94...A924E&index=15

in the end i only won cause he kept running into my smashes... her aerials own lucas', and she gimps pretty easy too. all you can do is space, so lucas has to work waaay harder than jiggs does to get stuff done, putting it in her favor.

fix your links

 

[Noobicidal]

We over at the Ganon boards are rediscussing the Ganon versus Lucas match up, and we would appreciate some of your input, assuming you aren't too busy with another match up discussion. Any comments would be appreciated, and I thank you in advance for your time.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202473

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

What's so confusing about the Oli matchup?

We can easily edgehog his recovery and out projectile him.

But he can beat our aerial game, our ground game, his incredible grab is, just that, and he can gimp the crap out of us.

I say, 40-60 him.

 

[prOAPC]

he beats our ground game, and that's the worst part, but not our aerial game. His aerial mobility is not really good, his aerials attackas has good priority, but that depends on the pikmin his using, and his aerials have lag upon langing.
olimar has a hard time gimping Lucas
i say 50-50, Lucas can win the match up, but this is a match up you hae to know REALLY well, if not, you're going to lose

 

[HailCrest]

are yellow pikmin immune to PSI?

 

[prOAPC]

immune to the hexagons (nair, dsmash, dair...) and pk thunder
if you use dsmash for example, when a yellow pikmin is attached to you, the attack will last more than normal, but the pikmin won't hurt you

 

[HelpR]

as a general rule of thumb, if olimar manages to get pikmon on you, the safest move you can use to remove then is Fsmash. however, if it's any color other then yellow, nair will do quite nicely.

An interesting thing to note is that while the pikmin are immune to the hexagons, any move that hits them physically can also kill them. for example

The physical hitbox of ftilt, your feet on dair, your foot on fair, your foot on bair, and the foot on utilt.

one thing to keep in mind however, is that for lucas, most of this spots happens to be the sour spots of his attacks, so it will likely take several hits to remove any yellow pikmon that hang on.

So to speak, if a yellow pikmin gets on you, uair if you're away from the olimar if it's near the top of your body, dair if it's near the bottom, fair if it's near the front. if you're really desperate to get them off, fsmash.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol don't use Fsmash to get pikmin off of you. That's just asking to get grabbed. I usually use Dair to get them off. It won't kill yellows but they will come off and it's a lot safer than most things. Sometimes I use Nair too.

 

[smash64]

tell em tyr!

 

[prOAPC]

2 jabs are enough to get pikmins off

 

[Zodiark]

I use F-smash to return the pikmins to the sender

 

[themrskills]

Hey, it's good to be back. I've been gone so long(waiting for Mk stink to waft away). So, Lucas gotten any more prestige in the world? As for the Oli matchup, personally I find this one about 60-40 Lucas favor. The best approach I find is sh pk fires. It keeps pikmin off you, and gets in for some decent aerials where oli really can't do much. Once you're in there though, watch out for that demonic grab

 

[Ingulit]

as a general rule of thumb, if olimar manages to get pikmon on you, the safest move you can use to remove then is Fsmash. however, if it's any color other then yellow, nair will do quite nicely.

Attacking Pikmin stales the move you use, so you'd be staling your F-Smash. I'd N-Air 90% of the time and just avoid yellows at all costs. At any rate, pick a move that you can stale with little repercussion.

I'm just visiting because themrskills said to

 

[themrskills]

I want it known and publicized that I am out there campaigning on important threads to keep these Lucas boards alive, and Ingulit is typed proof of that!!! ^^^^^^

 

[~Nasty~]

Just for a little more input on the discussion, if a pikmin misses you or you are really close to olimar, dtilt kills pikmin and after 2 or 3 dtilts olimar would trip (depending on spacing) and you can get in a fsmash.

Not too sure if this works all the time but i did it to my friend on more than one occasion.. any ideas?

~Nasty~

 

[Zodiark]

I say 60-40 Olimar's favor too .