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Lucas versus Toon Link

Kidochi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
19
Location
New Jersey
HOW do you exactly plow through Toon Link's projectiles? I have such a hard time getting to Toon Link himself. When I finally get there, I already built up like 10-30% damage which can be fatal because Lucas is a light character.

Ok Let me describe how he attacks.

First, he uses the double-bow technique (I don't know what its called)

Second, he gets his boomerang and tries to hit me.

Then he uses his double-bow technique.

Next he gets his bomb and jumps above me , drops the bomb, and I roll out.

He does the D-air with Toon Link and catapults the bomb towards my face.

Ok. I finally got enough range to shoot him with my PK fire. But for what cost?

10-30% damage? There's got to be an easier way than that.


(I know about Lucas' F-smash to reflect any projectile. But in Toon-Link's case, Lucas' F-smash is too slow.)
 

J0K3R

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
210
Location
New York.
Start by pk thundering and if it cancels the bow so be it but you dont want to start defesively. This game is about agression. Start by casting an attack as well , hopefully putting you on level ground with him and stumping his generic projectile game.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
Kidochi, you're gonna be on the defensive for this game. Inch forward to him, shielding and/or fsmashing his projectiles, until you see an opening for a SHPKF. When it comes, take it. If you can wavebounce, spam it. It cancels out his arrows, and it comes out faster than his arrows. Eventually you'll be hitting him, if he can't quickdraw (that's what that technique is called.)

If you see that you can eat a projectile in a controlled way so that you end up in range of him, take it. Boomerangs coming in from behind are great for this.
 

onlymaskde

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
1,039
Location
Broboro, NC
Sometimes I have the same problem with a couple of the TLs that I face. The boomerang and arrows get overwhelming at times, and it is sometimes difficult to get to your foe. One thing I find to work is by first jumping (not a short hop), which makes your opponent think you're going to swoop in and attempt to attack with an aerial, but instead, shooting a PK Thunder at them. Maneuver it so it will hit, but don't be so far away from your foe, or else they will have time to react.
 

Levitas

the moon
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
5,734
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
reflect projectiles w/ bat. You have the advantage in the projectile game, just don't bat any bombs.

Edit: Whoops, didn't read the last line. honestly, I spot dodge maybe half, and bat half, and the projectiles are much more sparce once he realizes that you're gonna reflect everything he's got.
 

NESSBOUNDER

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,167
Location
somewhere sunny
I second trying to hit them back with your bat. It's so much easier in this game. You should have no problem batting his boomerang and arrows at range.
 

MTFFFG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
88
Location
Hockey Town
I third that suggestion, not just because of the difficulty but the fun in exploiting the weaknesses in his camping strategy
 

Powda

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
154
Location
Vegas
I gotta say I was looking through that thread of who is lucas's counters and being blown away in disbelief. I sometimes wonder who everyone is playing with.

I have been playing every smash since inception competitively with good to great players. I can testify that Toon link is the best counter as of now to lucas. I mean there are some hard characters to fight who are equals with lucas like diddy or MK...but toon link is a direct counter IMO.

For one he has a shield, he can sit there and block PKF. Second he ahs 3 projectiles that fire almost perfectly to lucases down time. I mean if you get hit and they throw a boomerang, it hits you perfectly before you hit the ground at any percentage between 0 and 50%.

So let's say you break through his barage of projectiles and get in close...You just got in close with one of the heaviest hitters in the game. His down smash has sent me off the stage at 0%...imagine what happens at 20-30 70%. His moves don't have complete priority over lucas, but his attacks reach further so in a way they do.

Ok so PK doesnt work....Getting in close doesn't work...how bout grab spam? Nope...his grab is longer than yours and you get owned in grab spam games.

My last dim of hope was to use the bat to reflect the projectiles back at him...guess what? He can spam them faster than your bat can swing and reflect.

If anyone gets a revelation on how to take down toon link fill me in...cause I am a lucas fanatic and **** almost every character but toon link.

~powda
 

GofG

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
I gotta say I was looking through that thread of who is lucas's counters and being blown away in disbelief. I sometimes wonder who everyone is playing with.

I have been playing every smash since inception competitively with good to great players. I can testify that Toon link is the best counter as of now to lucas. I mean there are some hard characters to fight who are equals with lucas like diddy or MK...but toon link is a direct counter IMO.
Powda: Smash Noob
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2

Who are these good players? Do you live in Ken's neighborhood? Perhaps you went to college with Ikki? Maybe you were Captain Jack's gay lover? How many tournaments have you entered in? What were the names of the tournaments? Who did you main in Retro and Melee?

ITT Noobs.

For one he has a shield, he can sit there and block PKF. Second he ahs 3 projectiles that fire almost perfectly to lucases down time. I mean if you get hit and they throw a boomerang, it hits you perfectly before you hit the ground at any percentage between 0 and 50%.
While you are firing PKF, he cannot attack you. Do you understand this? It isn't meant to be an offense in this case, but a defense. Your PKF will eat all of his projectiles, and if he tries to pull one out, most likely he will eat a PKF.

They vastly decreased stun time for all attacks in Brawl. You can airdodge the boomerang.

So let's say you break through his barage of projectiles and get in close...You just got in close with one of the heaviest hitters in the game. His down smash has sent me off the stage at 0%...imagine what happens at 20-30 70%. His moves don't have complete priority over lucas, but his attacks reach further so in a way they do.
Toon Link absolutely does not have more range than Lucas. Toon Link has some of the worst range in the game; his entire game is built around setting people up for getting hit by his smashes, since he can't just pull them out because they don't have good enough range. Your dsmash will clank with his dsmash and you can then shield the fsmash that's coming, shield grab him, and combo from there. If you suspect an fsmash coming, just shield grab it. He shouldn't go for the grab since it's a KO for you if he misses.

Ok so PK doesnt work....Getting in close doesn't work...how bout grab spam? Nope...his grab is longer than yours and you get owned in grab spam games.
No, you shouldn't grab spam. You are correct. You know why? You really shouldn't ever grab spam.

My last dim of hope was to use the bat to reflect the projectiles back at him...guess what? He can spam them faster than your bat can swing and reflect.
This isn't meant to be the end of projectiles, but rather a good way of trying to interrupt a double quickdrawed arrow. Don't bother trying to reflect every single projectile, but surely, with a decent combination of fsmash and shields and spotdodges, you can avoid nearly every single projectile he throws at you while you approach him.

If anyone gets a revelation on how to take down toon link fill me in...cause I am a lucas fanatic and **** almost every character but toon link.
Howabout you read this thread?


You look rather arrogant when no one's even heard of you and you have no gameplay vidoeos on youtube, and yet you claim to be a lucas "fanatic" and that you can "****" every other character.

I am under the impression these good players you have been playing are perhaps your close friends, or maybe computers.
 

Levitas

the moon
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
5,734
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Powda, I have no clue what to say about the matchup. Your aerials outspace his, you've got a better option for dealing w/ projectile (the bat is fast enough for boomerangs and uncharged arrows, and if the charge, then you can approach), you've got superior kill moves, and lucas is far cooler.

That said, make sure you're bsticking (or at least optimally wavelanding back) when using PK fire, as it'll give you time to reflect whatever isn't eaten by the PK Fire.

I'm surprised, nobody's pulled anything difficult to deal with off against my lucas, so I'd assumed it wasn't a big issue for Lucas.
 

Powda

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
154
Location
Vegas
GofG, sorry I'm not part of the circle jerks yet, I'll show myself the door. I've been reading this forum for a little over a year now and it's just by chance I decided to make my first posts today. You probably won't hear much more out of me after your lovely welcoming.

That being said, Videos plz. No sarcasm, I really want to see. Theorycraft is so fun ain't it?

/respect Levitas

Edit
Sorry I don't play well with kids, no offence to the rest.
 

MTFFFG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
88
Location
Hockey Town
GofG "Powda: Smash Noob
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2

Who are these good players? Do you live in Ken's neighborhood? Perhaps you went to college with Ikki? Maybe you were Captain Jack's gay lover? How many tournaments have you entered in? What were the names of the tournaments? Who did you main in Retro and Melee?

ITT Noobs."

im considered a smash noob as well but this post just made me lol
 

GofG

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
Don't call the competitive smash community a circle jerk just because you aren't in it.

I'm sorry if I overreacted, but I don't like it when people who appear to be noobs try to say that they're an authority on a character.

If you truely are involved in the competitive smash scene, then I apologize, but otherwise, don't give your advice like its made of solid gold.
 

Powda

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
154
Location
Vegas
If you feel like discussing my credentials, do it privately. No need to beat your chest in the threads.
 

Kidochi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
19
Location
New Jersey
Yes. Please no fights. We're all on different levels and there's no reason to bash other people who are less experienced than you are.

Having said that, I'll still try my best reflecting and dodging but those still won't get me close to Toon Link.

And also, I have another character problem. >.< g2 deal with that.
 

Galeon

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
617
Location
Miami, Florida
I'm actually going to agree with Powda. I don't know how good/bad the Toon Links you've all fought were, whether TL was their main or not, or if they've fought Lucases before. But, don't even begin to think that its going to be as easy as batting everything back at him.

His arrows are fast enough to not be able to bat them on reaction. You'd have to anticipate it and if he expected you might reflect, then you're going to get hit by whatever hit he feels like smacking you with for it. Reflecting is great for his boomerang though and if you actually did predict the arrow correctly.

As for approaching, Levitas, I'm going to have to disagree with you. You said that your aerials outspace his. Toon Link may not be Marth but if anything your aerials are about equal in range, his probably being slightly bigger. If you're advancing, you have two reasonable moves to do that with, fair and nair. Approaching with pk fire is just going to get you hurt if he blocks/avoids it at medium or close range. Approaching with fair will get punished by anyone who's familiar with the move and is aware of how easy it is to get close to lucas after he throws the kick out, especially when you have a sword (and bairs/dairs or uairs aren't great for advancing/spacing, dair might beat his uair though if his timing's off).

If I was playing TL and a Lucas faired into me to close the distance, I would instantly d-smash or u-smash out of shield or simply retreat/boomerang if he di'ed back. Seriously, fair sucks for approaching and its the only 'safe' thing that you could throw out at medium range without worrying about him simply jabbing/u-tilting your aerial. If you know he's expecting a pk fire however, a nair is perfect and will lead to TL getting harassed as the gap has been closed. But if he predicts a nair, you will be u-tilted / baired repetitiously for it.

I've gone against a really good TL and I know that on FD, Lucas has to put himself into bad situations to get close. What I have been trying to do is see how useful f-tilt is for approaching. I know it clanks with boomerangs and I think arrows so they disappear and you're a step closer. Bombs you could probably catch with the right timing of an f-tilt but since it takes time to actually pull out, you could just block it and step forward.

Lixivium gave the best piece of advice though, don't take TL to FD. If you have to take it there, get close to him on the ground, not through the air.

EDIT: One other thing. Try to find out if he's a toon link that spams projectiles to damage/keep range or a TL that uses projectiles to punish reactions. The second kind you have to be a lot more careful about. The kind that mindlessly spams when he's away, though, is kind of easy to get around. Fight him like any other spammer. Bat aggressively and close the gap. But for the kind of TL that waits, you'll end up whiffing and being punished so watch patterns and react accordingly.

EDIT2: Started b-sticking tonight so you can take that unsafe pk firing pretty lightly. But if you're b-sticking them then it's not really advancing anyways, so eh.
 

MaximoSmasher

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
146
Location
NJ
I gotta say I was looking through that thread of who is lucas's counters and being blown away in disbelief. I sometimes wonder who everyone is playing with.

I have been playing every smash since inception competitively with good to great players. I can testify that Toon link is the best counter as of now to lucas. I mean there are some hard characters to fight who are equals with lucas like diddy or MK...but toon link is a direct counter IMO.

For one he has a shield, he can sit there and block PKF. Second he ahs 3 projectiles that fire almost perfectly to lucases down time. I mean if you get hit and they throw a boomerang, it hits you perfectly before you hit the ground at any percentage between 0 and 50%.

So let's say you break through his barage of projectiles and get in close...You just got in close with one of the heaviest hitters in the game. His down smash has sent me off the stage at 0%...imagine what happens at 20-30 70%. His moves don't have complete priority over lucas, but his attacks reach further so in a way they do.

Ok so PK doesnt work....Getting in close doesn't work...how bout grab spam? Nope...his grab is longer than yours and you get owned in grab spam games.

My last dim of hope was to use the bat to reflect the projectiles back at him...guess what? He can spam them faster than your bat can swing and reflect.

If anyone gets a revelation on how to take down toon link fill me in...cause I am a lucas fanatic and **** almost every character but toon link.

~powda

I use PK fire by suprise, don't spam it! PK thunder and PKT2 Are probably your best shots at racking up damage. I usually jump into the air and keep him busy with PKT until I land. Oh, and get him to miss with his dair smash, you can retort with needle pull. OR if you needle pull
in advance you can hit him before he even gets close. I kill alot of toonlinks this way.

I'm a big fan into Nair into a smash attack.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,001
Location
Raleigh, NC
Err... MaximoSmasher... PKF is a great move to spam. PKT is way too punishable.

What do you mean by needle pull?
 

Galeon

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
617
Location
Miami, Florida
its a mother 3 reference. For Lucas's up-smash, he pulls a needle out of the ground and that explosion thing above his head is the effect, I guess. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.
 

hazard99

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
45
I have a quick question. I do not have the game in my dorm, so I cannot test this out, but I'm planning on entering a tourney in april (I got 3rd place in the last tourney I went to using PT.. and I don't really like him too much).

Many of the players in the tournament use toon link, and they all spam his dair. I want to know if Lucas' upsmash and PKT2 have priority over this attack.

Thanks :)
 

MaximoSmasher

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
146
Location
NJ
Err... MaximoSmasher... PKF is a great move to spam. PKT is way too punishable.

What do you mean by needle pull?
It is a great move to spam just not against toonlink with his arrow spam being faster. PKT Is also more unpredictable, so if you're safe no sense in not using it.
 

Galeon

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
617
Location
Miami, Florida
I have a quick question. I do not have the game in my dorm, so I cannot test this out, but I'm planning on entering a tourney in april (I got 3rd place in the last tourney I went to using PT.. and I don't really like him too much).

Many of the players in the tournament use toon link, and they all spam his dair. I want to know if Lucas' upsmash and PKT2 have priority over this attack.

Thanks :)
yes u-smash beats it without trading.
 

MTFFFG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
88
Location
Hockey Town
I have a question involving the pk fire and attacks that diminish in knockback. Does the pk fire or psi magnet or pkt lose their knockback after extended use?
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
836
Yes, all attacks suffer from diminishing returns, including PK attacks. I always go for KOs and Gimps right when I spawn for this reason.

TL is effective against Lucas, but I don't think it's a counter in the league of Meta Knight. Use your PKT more, it's very good against TL, both as an edge guard and as a juggle/damage builder at range, and avoid his smashes like the plague. You should be able to live to very high percents, while TL won't be able to avoid the stick and the boot forever.



This is a good thread, lets not attack each other's rep all the time.
 

-NEOLINK-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
450
Location
Michigan
Try to bat the boomerang, cancel out the arrows w/ PK fire or PKT (more likely PK fire), and dodge the bombs. My brother plays as TL so i have to deal with it.
 

Powda

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
154
Location
Vegas
Someone mentioned the PKF is faster than Toon Links projectiles, so if you were to spam it right back at their spam it would eventually hit them. I tested this even with the B-stick and toon link's projectiles were not slower. Am I doing something wrong? If I can't get it to work in a test how do you guys do it in live combat?

Thx in advance.
 

Levitas

the moon
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
5,734
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
I couldn't find a post where someone says that. Check the vid compendium though, there's 21 new vids of someone vs toon link, and from the one I checked out, they're pretty good.
 

Powda

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
154
Location
Vegas
They even admitted Those were the first 21 games they played since they unlocked TL. NO offense to the players but TL will play better. I am up to game 7 and have yet to see him use his Dsmash even once and let Lucas off the hook a few times.

But this is still premature maybe once I reach video 21 I'll be satisfied ;)

BTW B-sticking improves games against TL extensively, Like night and day IMO.

Edit - Skipped right to video 21 and am very pleased. Saw some bomb juggling, good Dsmashes, decent projectile spam. I can say I am impressed. I am looking forward to seeing these guys play again after a few weeks of practice.
 
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