Levitas
the moon
This kind of discussion has been happening in kind of a hit-or-miss way on the lucas boards, but I think it's really important to start talking about this in an organized fashion while the metagame's still taking shape.
Basically here's the deal: If we want to see Lucas take a seat in High tier, we need to start doing well in tournaments with lucas. If we want to do well with lucas, it's VITAL that we know every matchup that's likely to appear at tournaments. If you have doubts on whether or not this is necessary, consider this: at the last tournament I attended, 16 out of 48 people played Metaknight.
That means that if we can discover something to break the matchup, it's almost uarunteed that this will carry you through one more round at a tournament.So I'm going to list characters that are likely to appear at a tournament setting, and general strategies that we've discussed, and that's where the discussion will start. Bring up tactics that have worked on each character listed, and we'll all critique those strategies.
Hopefully, this will make some significant headway in Lucas's matchups, and this thread should be a great reference for people who are learning Lucas and need help.
[color="blue"This most recent update is making use of the character rankings that Ankoku's been tracking. This is based off of tournament results, so I think it's appropriate that we focus on the characters that have done well. Information on the characters not in the top 13 that were on the first page before are saved on my personal archive. Just pm me if you want information on those characters, or if you want a copy of my personal archive[/color]
[color="green"]S Rank
Snake (23 top8, 22 top4, 15 wins, 164 pts)[/color]
Snake is heavy and hits hard. Maintain medium range spacing, and spam PK fire. As long as he can't chuck grenades at you, you'll do fine. Watch for his dash attack and mortar slide, they come fast. Pay attention to the snake at ALL times. He'll get you with a C4 or mine otherwise. Don't ever close the gap or he'll get you with a jab, utilt, or ftilt and you'll die.
Edgeguard his cypher with a PK thunder moving in the same direction as him. It wrecks him. If he gets too close to the edge with the cypher, grab him out of it and DON'T pummel or throw. He'll die.
GofG's stuff:
Stay out of range of his utilt and hit him with jabs/ftilts (both clank with his utilt and you can get something out faster than he can afterward.)
Hardcorenesser notes that on smashville, mines blend with the stage.
Meta Knight (26 top8, 27 top4, 7 wins, 142 pts)
Metaknight likes to approach with fairs, run up and grab, or mach tornado at you. You can punish all three of these tactics with wavebounce PK fire. Don't spam it, use it to punish his approaches, as if he catches on, he'll just start to dodge all PK fires.
Metaknight has a lot of priority in all moves. If you see a downsmash coming, sheild, then forward tilt, or if you have time to get in the air, SH Nair at him. Watch for his f-tilt, though.
If you're on a platform, he'll almost always try to approach from below in the target zone of a Dsmash. Use that to your advantage.
From Galeon:
Last tourney I went to, every Metaknight I fought abused up-b to glide attack (possibly down smash after that but this is where mindgames come in) so the answer to that is rolling around. In a hurry so I'll mention other stuff later.
From Galeon later:
Metaknight's Up-B to glide attack is really tough to get around unless you react as soon as he does it. His glide attack will clank any attack you throw out and will get you down smashed if you're close to or on the ground when he uses it. Rolling around Up-B is a little more difficult than it sounds. If you roll past his glide attack as he's reaching the ground, Lucas's roll is slow enough that he'll get tornadoed or turn around Up-B'ed. Good Metaknights will probably go into those 2 options if they see you blocked or at low percent. Down smash is the unsafe choice for them.
What you can do is wait for the glide attack and if he's really close upon landing, you can get a full jab combo in. If he spaces his glide attack, your first jab will have knockback and push him out of range for the rest of the jabs. This is going to get you Up-B'ed. A single jab will get a bit of damage and should bait a reset of sorts if he sees he's hit and you haven't whiffed
your second jab. If he does Up-B after your single jab, it won't hit you. THIS is where rolling comes in. If a Metaknight EVER Up-B's close to you and it doesn't hit you, you can shamelessly roll behind him the second he leaves the ground. From here, you have an advantage because you can challenge his Up-B from below with an up tilt or up air. 90% of the time you'll hit him clean but if he times his glide attack perfectly, he'll clank and have fall time because you should have challenged him when he was above you. Now you can get a jab combo if he's relatively close to the ground, a grab, or possibly a bat if you got him to glide attack noticeably high.
If a Metaknight Up-B's from far away and is going for you, your goal is to run underneath him. By doing that, you're forcing a reaction because he won't be in a good position. He'll most likely aim his glide down to hit you with a glide attack. This is where your mixup comes in. You can either block and jab as he lands to setup for the situation above or challenge him with an up air or Up Smash. Up Smash (I know this is risky, I rarely ever use this move but here's it valid) will catch him if he was ready to clank with something like an up air or something as you'll slide past the range of his glide attack (behind him), if he chooses to glide past you, or will flat out trade. Playing safe would be challenging with up air.
If a Metaknight is tornado'ing close to you, then unfortunately you're going to have to take it. At close range, you won't have time to PK Fire and it will eat your shield easily. If you run away and try to shield the last few hits whe you reach the edge of the stage, the Metaknight can still safely di away so you have no possibility of punishing him. If the Metaknight is dumb and is tornado'ing to get close, PK Fire his face. But to PUNISH the tornado, yes you're going to have to get hit by it probably. As you're rising in the tornado, mash your A button
and attempt to di to either side. What should happen is instead of being launched by the final hit for about 10% damage, you'll come out of the tornado doing a neutral air. If you don't want to do that, then di and hope that the last hit doesn't get you so you can fall with him and up air him back into the air. Your biggest advantage against Metaknight is when he's above you.
EDGEGUARDING!: This is a toughy but you have to do it. The second you get Metaknight off stage, start a PK Thunder. I know you're probably thinking "But Galeon, he can tornado through my PK Thunder cause he's Metaknight and he's broken". Well right before you're about to make contact with him, start making your usual circles. The tornado cannot beat the tail of the PK Thunder. Drive that into his head. Make going low be a scary idea for him by pressuring him with PK Thunder and sending him back out horizontally with it, making it very difficult to recover. From my experiences, after enough time, they usually try to go high. But you have to remember that you have the advantage on Metaknight from below with both PK Thunder and some of your other moves.
NOT Getting Edgeguarded: Your Down Air beats Metaknight's Up-B from below you. But there is a spacing where you will trade or he will win. Practice with a friend so you can see when it's a better idea to beat him or airdodge. Feel free to mix it up. Also remember that its usually safer to come in from high above because its usually harder to get to Lucas when he's high rather than when he's low (they can just fall with you and kill you with a low percent dair).Other Notes: This has been advice on how to fight a tournament Metaknight that abuses these moves or puts you in bad situations. Against general Metaknights that try to outspace you and don't abuse B-Moves, outspace them with PK Fire. The fear of PK Fire usually lets you approach. Against the tourney-style Metaknight, you will usually be approaching only to get intercepted by Up-B or Tornado. Against the normal kind, it is still a disadvantage but it isn't NEARLY as frustrating. Lucas CAN beat the spammy type of Metaknight but it is just very difficult. You always have to be thinking about their options and react instantly to things like Tornado or Up-B. Basically, it's nowhere near unwinnable but I would suggest counterpicking unless you're just that much better or have gotten used to the timings of beating those moves. And that's coming from a Lucas main.
A Rank
King Dedede (7 top8, 13 top4, 6 wins, 76 pts)
His side b is faster than yours, but not by much. In fact, by short hopping at him with pk fires, you can use the "doppler effect" to your advantage and actually outpace him. Nairs and Dairs are good against him since he's so big. Jabs are good too. Hit him out of his up b when it's on the way down with a Usmash, or dodge it and punish the lag with an Fsmash or nair.Hardcorenesser notes that waddle doo's electricity can be absorbed for huge gains.
Mr. Game & Watch (17 top8, 8 top4, 6 wins, 71 pts)
This is a rough matchup. His bair is really tough, but if he starts spamming it, use a low pk fire once or twice. DON'T spam PK fire, he'll bucket it and kill you. Avoid his stuff, if he starts spamming any smashes with IASA frames, just grab, it's longer. Watch for his Dtilts and ftilts, they hit hard. When recovering, try not to use PK thunder ever, unless you're really far away. He'll bucket gimp you and get a full bucket (that kills almost always) out of it. use the tether whenever possible. Jumping with an airdodge can get you past a Game and Watch that chases you off the edge.
From FoxySigma:
About the G&W discussion, though I know it's beat talked to hell, you may think that spamming PKF slows him up (which it does, I usually get hit with one or two for every three I bucket) but you have to remember that dthrow-bucket is a mostly guaranteed combo, and therefore as soon as I get three I'm going to be approaching with SHAD's or shields or rolldodges until I can get a grab off, and then I'm free to bucket more.
If there's any one weakness he has is that once he buckets something he takes a ton of lag. If you know G&W is going to bucket a PKF (and chances are if his bucket is out it takes too much lag to put it back anyways, he'll either bucket it or get hit) then just fire one and run in with a shield-cancelled grab, dash attack, or aerial of your choice. GofG has done it reliably on me many times.As for other notes on the matchup (even though I don't main G&W) is that he is the single biggest counter in the game to your recovery. I can bucket PKT if you're below me (off the stage) for an instantly full bucket which I can easily land, AND stop your recovery, or I can blow you away from your PKT with my uair if you're trying to use T2 as an approach from above, and you absolutely cannot hit yourself with it at that point. Then I'm free to uair juggle you until I feel you're in good position to fall into my usmash.
Marth (17 top8, 13 top4, 2 wins, 66 pts)
No matter what Emblem Lord says, Marth is not top tier. Use PK fire a bunch, punish his laggy moves, watch for his side b, and edgeguard his up b by hitting him on his way up with a PK Thunder from behind. It'll stagespike him.
DON'T get grabbed. It's an instant 30% (at least) on lucas for all intents and purposes.
Wario (2 top8, 6 top4, 9 wins, 65 pts)
I've got nothing on this matchup yet. Please provide input.
ROB (13 top8, 12 top4, 2 wins, 59 pts)
He's heavy and he edgeguards well. Punish his dsmash by jabbing it, you'll win. if he approaches in the air, PK fire. While he's on the ground, try not to force an opening through his tilts and jabs, it'll rack up damage on you quite efficiently. More tips here are appreciated.
Pikachu (3 top8, 12 top4, 3 wins, 54 pts)
Anther flat out wrecks me. As he's the only pika I've played, someone else should talk about this matchup. One thing, though: Magnet his bolts and thunders. You can jump or spotdodge out of absorbing a bolt directly, so that will avoid his approach nicely. Anther likes to hit with the jolt and either run up and grab or SH Fair to Dsmash.
B Rank
Wolf (9 top8, 11 top4, 1 win, 47 pts)
Wolf is heavy, but once he's off the edge, you will know exactly how he's going to recover. This is because his recovery options are non-existant. Also, you can force him to approach by psi magnetting. This is useful because approaching is something that Wolf doesn't excell at. When he's approaching, watch for his high priority bairs as well as making sure you're not in range of his fsmash.
Edgeguard him by circling pk thunder in the path he will take to get back to the stage. Play defensively, and when he stops lasering, use pk fire.
From proAPC:
if wolf use his upB to reach the edge, you can use a down smash near the edge, and it will hit wolf before he can sweetspot
This is only true if he uses a few select angles, otherwise use other methods.
Falco (6 top8, 8 top4, 2 wins, 40 pts)
From Trozz:
I find d-air to be very effective when you're already close range.
From Tyr_03:
Against Fox and Falco their Up B moves can both be edgeguarded with PK Thunder by hitting them with the side of the head. The front of the head will just cancel when it hits these moves but the sides of the head outprioritize it.
From Technomonster:
1) Play extremely accurately and somewhat carefully. Falco is a buff dude and his buffest bit is his 42% chain grab to dashattackusmash combo which is gay. You can try to get out by mashing A, in which case you may neutral air or jab him if he times his janx incorrectly. Otherwise just DI and take it like a man, it won't kill you.
Falco's second buffest bit is his Backair, which is kinda like game and watch's F-air in duration range and priority, with a bit less knockback, and ***** all of your air game and ***** your johns while it's there. Falco cannot pull this off fast enough to counter your approach (but he can f-smash you tho so don't be dumb), so it's good to approach, but it's better not to PK thunder too close to the stage and get a backair to the face, and for the most part don't try to challenge him in the air, you have some good speed and priority but it's like jumping at a Game and Watch or very similar, it looks tempting but is full of **** for you and not them.
Lasers are pretty cake, shield 'em rather than trying to absorb them in a silly manner unless it's really safe and obvious. I like to try to powershield them because it makes Falco angry.
2) In contradiction to #1 go for the **** as often as possible.
Uptilt to shieldgrab ***** Falco and as far as I can tell is 100% gaurenteed lol, because Falco will always either downair or airdodge after an uptilt, and for some reason never jump. Good for 25% and maybe a good edgeguard to boot.
Falcos like to Forward B recover to the middle of the stage. This is u-smash city population Falco. Do this a few times, and he'll try to go for the ledge, which takes longer and is funny to **** with PK thunder and D-smash (Falco can be d-smashed out of his up-b and side b at the right angles at the edge).
3) Also PK Fire and f-tilt that mofo to make him tech and then tech chase and throw him off the stage or f-tilt him again whatever you like. Remember to shield as he lands out of his falling animation to stop your momentum and approach the direction you predict quickly.
Ike (11 top8, 5 top4, 2 wins, 36 pts)
Ike is my favorite matchup in the game. Wavebounce pk fires and he can't touch you. If he wants to close the gap from afar with a side b, just sit on a platform or get behind him from the air. Avoid his smashes, especially his usmash. Always recover to the edge, never onstage. Watch for his fast utilt, jab combo, and bair, and dodge everything else.
Fox (5 top8, 7 top4, 1 win, 31 pts)
Lucas's tilts wreck fox. Jabs are great, too. If he starts to laser, magnet a few. PK fire doesn't get back to you if he shines it, as long as you're wavebouncing.
From Tyr_03:
Against Fox and Falco their Up B moves can both be edgeguarded with PK Thunder by hitting them with the side of the head. The front of the head will just cancel when it hits these moves but the sides of the head outprioritize it.
Donkey Kong (6 top8, 5 top4, 2 win, 31 pts)
Input here would be great.
Kirby (8 top4, 1 win, 29 pts)
Peach (3 top8, 7 top4, 1 win, 29 pts)
From technomonster: Peach has a lot of quick moves and a lot of priority. Lucas has an advantage in the matchup, however.
1) Peach can't close distance quickly enough to accurately punish well spaced PK fire or B-sticked unless you use it in tight quarters. PKF is super spammable in this matchup. Try to match her height when she floats over to let her know that we're not playing that game.
2) Peach's best move is down-airing on your head, and she can do it repeatedly and chase your roll with a f- or b-air if she's good. You can PKT out of shield to get out of it if your timing is excellent.
3) Peach's jab is fast as **** and you won't be fast enough to grab any of her aerials if she cancels them into jabs correctly. Just wait for it and grab out of the jab, and hope your big *** head doesn't get hit.
4) D-smash is still pretty good for pressuring. Memorize the timing with shield lag, and FJ D-air to escape!
5) Land those KO moves! You can always find a way to upsmash a Peach!
This is more a battle of attrition than it is a kill or be killed matchup. Just make sure your PKFs aren't getting predicted and punished, and you aren't dropping your shield too early in her pressure strings and you'll be fabulous.
Olimar (11 top8, 6 top4, 29 pts)
Ice Climbers (4 top8, 6 top4, 1 win, 27 pts)
Lucario (4 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins, 26 pts)
Toon Link (3 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins, 25 pts)
Sonic (4 top8, 3 top4, 2 wins, 23 pts)
Pit (5 top8, 3 top4, 1 win, 19 pts)
Zero Suit Samus (3 top8, 3 top4, 1 win, 17 pts)
C Rank
Diddy Kong (7 top8, 3 top4, 16 pts)
Luigi (1 top8, 4 top4, 13 pts)
Lucas (4 top8, 3 top4, 13 pts)
Ness (3 top8, 1 top4, 1 win, 11 pts)
Bowser (1 top8, 3 top4, 10 pts)
Jigglypuff (3 top8, 2 top4, 9 pts)
Zelda (1 top 8, 2 top4, 7 pts)
Sheik (1 top8, 2 top4, 7 pts)
D Rank
Captain Falcon (2 top4, 6 pts)
Mario (3 top8, 1 top4, 6 pts)
Ganondorf (3 top8, 1 top4, 6 pts)
Link (2 top8, 1 top4, 5 pts)
Pokémon Trainer (1 top4, 3 pts)
Yoshi (1 top4, 3 pts)
Samus (2 top8, 2 pts)
One last note: If you're righting an FAQ or have one and want to use the info in this thread, I preapprove it as long as you credit this thread. If you're posting in the thread and don't want it used in FAQs, just say so and I won't move your tips to the first post. If not, I'll add the ideas to the first post and credit the contributors. That seems fair to me.
Basically here's the deal: If we want to see Lucas take a seat in High tier, we need to start doing well in tournaments with lucas. If we want to do well with lucas, it's VITAL that we know every matchup that's likely to appear at tournaments. If you have doubts on whether or not this is necessary, consider this: at the last tournament I attended, 16 out of 48 people played Metaknight.
That means that if we can discover something to break the matchup, it's almost uarunteed that this will carry you through one more round at a tournament.So I'm going to list characters that are likely to appear at a tournament setting, and general strategies that we've discussed, and that's where the discussion will start. Bring up tactics that have worked on each character listed, and we'll all critique those strategies.
Hopefully, this will make some significant headway in Lucas's matchups, and this thread should be a great reference for people who are learning Lucas and need help.
[color="blue"This most recent update is making use of the character rankings that Ankoku's been tracking. This is based off of tournament results, so I think it's appropriate that we focus on the characters that have done well. Information on the characters not in the top 13 that were on the first page before are saved on my personal archive. Just pm me if you want information on those characters, or if you want a copy of my personal archive[/color]
[color="green"]S Rank
Snake (23 top8, 22 top4, 15 wins, 164 pts)[/color]
Snake is heavy and hits hard. Maintain medium range spacing, and spam PK fire. As long as he can't chuck grenades at you, you'll do fine. Watch for his dash attack and mortar slide, they come fast. Pay attention to the snake at ALL times. He'll get you with a C4 or mine otherwise. Don't ever close the gap or he'll get you with a jab, utilt, or ftilt and you'll die.
Edgeguard his cypher with a PK thunder moving in the same direction as him. It wrecks him. If he gets too close to the edge with the cypher, grab him out of it and DON'T pummel or throw. He'll die.
GofG's stuff:
Stay out of range of his utilt and hit him with jabs/ftilts (both clank with his utilt and you can get something out faster than he can afterward.)
Hardcorenesser notes that on smashville, mines blend with the stage.
Meta Knight (26 top8, 27 top4, 7 wins, 142 pts)
Metaknight likes to approach with fairs, run up and grab, or mach tornado at you. You can punish all three of these tactics with wavebounce PK fire. Don't spam it, use it to punish his approaches, as if he catches on, he'll just start to dodge all PK fires.
Metaknight has a lot of priority in all moves. If you see a downsmash coming, sheild, then forward tilt, or if you have time to get in the air, SH Nair at him. Watch for his f-tilt, though.
If you're on a platform, he'll almost always try to approach from below in the target zone of a Dsmash. Use that to your advantage.
From Galeon:
Last tourney I went to, every Metaknight I fought abused up-b to glide attack (possibly down smash after that but this is where mindgames come in) so the answer to that is rolling around. In a hurry so I'll mention other stuff later.
From Galeon later:
Metaknight's Up-B to glide attack is really tough to get around unless you react as soon as he does it. His glide attack will clank any attack you throw out and will get you down smashed if you're close to or on the ground when he uses it. Rolling around Up-B is a little more difficult than it sounds. If you roll past his glide attack as he's reaching the ground, Lucas's roll is slow enough that he'll get tornadoed or turn around Up-B'ed. Good Metaknights will probably go into those 2 options if they see you blocked or at low percent. Down smash is the unsafe choice for them.
What you can do is wait for the glide attack and if he's really close upon landing, you can get a full jab combo in. If he spaces his glide attack, your first jab will have knockback and push him out of range for the rest of the jabs. This is going to get you Up-B'ed. A single jab will get a bit of damage and should bait a reset of sorts if he sees he's hit and you haven't whiffed
your second jab. If he does Up-B after your single jab, it won't hit you. THIS is where rolling comes in. If a Metaknight EVER Up-B's close to you and it doesn't hit you, you can shamelessly roll behind him the second he leaves the ground. From here, you have an advantage because you can challenge his Up-B from below with an up tilt or up air. 90% of the time you'll hit him clean but if he times his glide attack perfectly, he'll clank and have fall time because you should have challenged him when he was above you. Now you can get a jab combo if he's relatively close to the ground, a grab, or possibly a bat if you got him to glide attack noticeably high.
If a Metaknight Up-B's from far away and is going for you, your goal is to run underneath him. By doing that, you're forcing a reaction because he won't be in a good position. He'll most likely aim his glide down to hit you with a glide attack. This is where your mixup comes in. You can either block and jab as he lands to setup for the situation above or challenge him with an up air or Up Smash. Up Smash (I know this is risky, I rarely ever use this move but here's it valid) will catch him if he was ready to clank with something like an up air or something as you'll slide past the range of his glide attack (behind him), if he chooses to glide past you, or will flat out trade. Playing safe would be challenging with up air.
If a Metaknight is tornado'ing close to you, then unfortunately you're going to have to take it. At close range, you won't have time to PK Fire and it will eat your shield easily. If you run away and try to shield the last few hits whe you reach the edge of the stage, the Metaknight can still safely di away so you have no possibility of punishing him. If the Metaknight is dumb and is tornado'ing to get close, PK Fire his face. But to PUNISH the tornado, yes you're going to have to get hit by it probably. As you're rising in the tornado, mash your A button
and attempt to di to either side. What should happen is instead of being launched by the final hit for about 10% damage, you'll come out of the tornado doing a neutral air. If you don't want to do that, then di and hope that the last hit doesn't get you so you can fall with him and up air him back into the air. Your biggest advantage against Metaknight is when he's above you.
EDGEGUARDING!: This is a toughy but you have to do it. The second you get Metaknight off stage, start a PK Thunder. I know you're probably thinking "But Galeon, he can tornado through my PK Thunder cause he's Metaknight and he's broken". Well right before you're about to make contact with him, start making your usual circles. The tornado cannot beat the tail of the PK Thunder. Drive that into his head. Make going low be a scary idea for him by pressuring him with PK Thunder and sending him back out horizontally with it, making it very difficult to recover. From my experiences, after enough time, they usually try to go high. But you have to remember that you have the advantage on Metaknight from below with both PK Thunder and some of your other moves.
NOT Getting Edgeguarded: Your Down Air beats Metaknight's Up-B from below you. But there is a spacing where you will trade or he will win. Practice with a friend so you can see when it's a better idea to beat him or airdodge. Feel free to mix it up. Also remember that its usually safer to come in from high above because its usually harder to get to Lucas when he's high rather than when he's low (they can just fall with you and kill you with a low percent dair).Other Notes: This has been advice on how to fight a tournament Metaknight that abuses these moves or puts you in bad situations. Against general Metaknights that try to outspace you and don't abuse B-Moves, outspace them with PK Fire. The fear of PK Fire usually lets you approach. Against the tourney-style Metaknight, you will usually be approaching only to get intercepted by Up-B or Tornado. Against the normal kind, it is still a disadvantage but it isn't NEARLY as frustrating. Lucas CAN beat the spammy type of Metaknight but it is just very difficult. You always have to be thinking about their options and react instantly to things like Tornado or Up-B. Basically, it's nowhere near unwinnable but I would suggest counterpicking unless you're just that much better or have gotten used to the timings of beating those moves. And that's coming from a Lucas main.
A Rank
King Dedede (7 top8, 13 top4, 6 wins, 76 pts)
His side b is faster than yours, but not by much. In fact, by short hopping at him with pk fires, you can use the "doppler effect" to your advantage and actually outpace him. Nairs and Dairs are good against him since he's so big. Jabs are good too. Hit him out of his up b when it's on the way down with a Usmash, or dodge it and punish the lag with an Fsmash or nair.Hardcorenesser notes that waddle doo's electricity can be absorbed for huge gains.
Mr. Game & Watch (17 top8, 8 top4, 6 wins, 71 pts)
This is a rough matchup. His bair is really tough, but if he starts spamming it, use a low pk fire once or twice. DON'T spam PK fire, he'll bucket it and kill you. Avoid his stuff, if he starts spamming any smashes with IASA frames, just grab, it's longer. Watch for his Dtilts and ftilts, they hit hard. When recovering, try not to use PK thunder ever, unless you're really far away. He'll bucket gimp you and get a full bucket (that kills almost always) out of it. use the tether whenever possible. Jumping with an airdodge can get you past a Game and Watch that chases you off the edge.
From FoxySigma:
About the G&W discussion, though I know it's beat talked to hell, you may think that spamming PKF slows him up (which it does, I usually get hit with one or two for every three I bucket) but you have to remember that dthrow-bucket is a mostly guaranteed combo, and therefore as soon as I get three I'm going to be approaching with SHAD's or shields or rolldodges until I can get a grab off, and then I'm free to bucket more.
If there's any one weakness he has is that once he buckets something he takes a ton of lag. If you know G&W is going to bucket a PKF (and chances are if his bucket is out it takes too much lag to put it back anyways, he'll either bucket it or get hit) then just fire one and run in with a shield-cancelled grab, dash attack, or aerial of your choice. GofG has done it reliably on me many times.As for other notes on the matchup (even though I don't main G&W) is that he is the single biggest counter in the game to your recovery. I can bucket PKT if you're below me (off the stage) for an instantly full bucket which I can easily land, AND stop your recovery, or I can blow you away from your PKT with my uair if you're trying to use T2 as an approach from above, and you absolutely cannot hit yourself with it at that point. Then I'm free to uair juggle you until I feel you're in good position to fall into my usmash.
Marth (17 top8, 13 top4, 2 wins, 66 pts)
No matter what Emblem Lord says, Marth is not top tier. Use PK fire a bunch, punish his laggy moves, watch for his side b, and edgeguard his up b by hitting him on his way up with a PK Thunder from behind. It'll stagespike him.
DON'T get grabbed. It's an instant 30% (at least) on lucas for all intents and purposes.
Wario (2 top8, 6 top4, 9 wins, 65 pts)
I've got nothing on this matchup yet. Please provide input.
ROB (13 top8, 12 top4, 2 wins, 59 pts)
He's heavy and he edgeguards well. Punish his dsmash by jabbing it, you'll win. if he approaches in the air, PK fire. While he's on the ground, try not to force an opening through his tilts and jabs, it'll rack up damage on you quite efficiently. More tips here are appreciated.
Pikachu (3 top8, 12 top4, 3 wins, 54 pts)
Anther flat out wrecks me. As he's the only pika I've played, someone else should talk about this matchup. One thing, though: Magnet his bolts and thunders. You can jump or spotdodge out of absorbing a bolt directly, so that will avoid his approach nicely. Anther likes to hit with the jolt and either run up and grab or SH Fair to Dsmash.
B Rank
Wolf (9 top8, 11 top4, 1 win, 47 pts)
Wolf is heavy, but once he's off the edge, you will know exactly how he's going to recover. This is because his recovery options are non-existant. Also, you can force him to approach by psi magnetting. This is useful because approaching is something that Wolf doesn't excell at. When he's approaching, watch for his high priority bairs as well as making sure you're not in range of his fsmash.
Edgeguard him by circling pk thunder in the path he will take to get back to the stage. Play defensively, and when he stops lasering, use pk fire.
if wolf use his upB to reach the edge, you can use a down smash near the edge, and it will hit wolf before he can sweetspot
This is only true if he uses a few select angles, otherwise use other methods.
Falco (6 top8, 8 top4, 2 wins, 40 pts)
From Trozz:
I find d-air to be very effective when you're already close range.
From Tyr_03:
Against Fox and Falco their Up B moves can both be edgeguarded with PK Thunder by hitting them with the side of the head. The front of the head will just cancel when it hits these moves but the sides of the head outprioritize it.
From Technomonster:
1) Play extremely accurately and somewhat carefully. Falco is a buff dude and his buffest bit is his 42% chain grab to dashattackusmash combo which is gay. You can try to get out by mashing A, in which case you may neutral air or jab him if he times his janx incorrectly. Otherwise just DI and take it like a man, it won't kill you.
Falco's second buffest bit is his Backair, which is kinda like game and watch's F-air in duration range and priority, with a bit less knockback, and ***** all of your air game and ***** your johns while it's there. Falco cannot pull this off fast enough to counter your approach (but he can f-smash you tho so don't be dumb), so it's good to approach, but it's better not to PK thunder too close to the stage and get a backair to the face, and for the most part don't try to challenge him in the air, you have some good speed and priority but it's like jumping at a Game and Watch or very similar, it looks tempting but is full of **** for you and not them.
Lasers are pretty cake, shield 'em rather than trying to absorb them in a silly manner unless it's really safe and obvious. I like to try to powershield them because it makes Falco angry.
2) In contradiction to #1 go for the **** as often as possible.
Uptilt to shieldgrab ***** Falco and as far as I can tell is 100% gaurenteed lol, because Falco will always either downair or airdodge after an uptilt, and for some reason never jump. Good for 25% and maybe a good edgeguard to boot.
Falcos like to Forward B recover to the middle of the stage. This is u-smash city population Falco. Do this a few times, and he'll try to go for the ledge, which takes longer and is funny to **** with PK thunder and D-smash (Falco can be d-smashed out of his up-b and side b at the right angles at the edge).
3) Also PK Fire and f-tilt that mofo to make him tech and then tech chase and throw him off the stage or f-tilt him again whatever you like. Remember to shield as he lands out of his falling animation to stop your momentum and approach the direction you predict quickly.
Ike (11 top8, 5 top4, 2 wins, 36 pts)
Ike is my favorite matchup in the game. Wavebounce pk fires and he can't touch you. If he wants to close the gap from afar with a side b, just sit on a platform or get behind him from the air. Avoid his smashes, especially his usmash. Always recover to the edge, never onstage. Watch for his fast utilt, jab combo, and bair, and dodge everything else.
Fox (5 top8, 7 top4, 1 win, 31 pts)
Lucas's tilts wreck fox. Jabs are great, too. If he starts to laser, magnet a few. PK fire doesn't get back to you if he shines it, as long as you're wavebouncing.
From Tyr_03:
Against Fox and Falco their Up B moves can both be edgeguarded with PK Thunder by hitting them with the side of the head. The front of the head will just cancel when it hits these moves but the sides of the head outprioritize it.
Donkey Kong (6 top8, 5 top4, 2 win, 31 pts)
Input here would be great.
Kirby (8 top4, 1 win, 29 pts)
Peach (3 top8, 7 top4, 1 win, 29 pts)
From technomonster: Peach has a lot of quick moves and a lot of priority. Lucas has an advantage in the matchup, however.
1) Peach can't close distance quickly enough to accurately punish well spaced PK fire or B-sticked unless you use it in tight quarters. PKF is super spammable in this matchup. Try to match her height when she floats over to let her know that we're not playing that game.
2) Peach's best move is down-airing on your head, and she can do it repeatedly and chase your roll with a f- or b-air if she's good. You can PKT out of shield to get out of it if your timing is excellent.
3) Peach's jab is fast as **** and you won't be fast enough to grab any of her aerials if she cancels them into jabs correctly. Just wait for it and grab out of the jab, and hope your big *** head doesn't get hit.
4) D-smash is still pretty good for pressuring. Memorize the timing with shield lag, and FJ D-air to escape!
5) Land those KO moves! You can always find a way to upsmash a Peach!
This is more a battle of attrition than it is a kill or be killed matchup. Just make sure your PKFs aren't getting predicted and punished, and you aren't dropping your shield too early in her pressure strings and you'll be fabulous.
Olimar (11 top8, 6 top4, 29 pts)
Ice Climbers (4 top8, 6 top4, 1 win, 27 pts)
Lucario (4 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins, 26 pts)
Toon Link (3 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins, 25 pts)
Sonic (4 top8, 3 top4, 2 wins, 23 pts)
Pit (5 top8, 3 top4, 1 win, 19 pts)
Zero Suit Samus (3 top8, 3 top4, 1 win, 17 pts)
C Rank
Diddy Kong (7 top8, 3 top4, 16 pts)
Luigi (1 top8, 4 top4, 13 pts)
Lucas (4 top8, 3 top4, 13 pts)
Ness (3 top8, 1 top4, 1 win, 11 pts)
Bowser (1 top8, 3 top4, 10 pts)
Jigglypuff (3 top8, 2 top4, 9 pts)
Zelda (1 top 8, 2 top4, 7 pts)
Sheik (1 top8, 2 top4, 7 pts)
D Rank
Captain Falcon (2 top4, 6 pts)
Mario (3 top8, 1 top4, 6 pts)
Ganondorf (3 top8, 1 top4, 6 pts)
Link (2 top8, 1 top4, 5 pts)
Pokémon Trainer (1 top4, 3 pts)
Yoshi (1 top4, 3 pts)
Samus (2 top8, 2 pts)
One last note: If you're righting an FAQ or have one and want to use the info in this thread, I preapprove it as long as you credit this thread. If you're posting in the thread and don't want it used in FAQs, just say so and I won't move your tips to the first post. If not, I'll add the ideas to the first post and credit the contributors. That seems fair to me.