Lucas has the most technical technical game ever

[Levitas]

I will expand this with full lucas PERFECT frame data once I have it polished. Like frame data you've never seen, the kind that you can only get when you are awesome.


In the meantime, lucas's ATs are the most precise things ever.

Requirements for a zap jump:

Frame 1: input a double jump
Frame 2: input a pk fire


Yes, that's right. you must input a PK fire the frame after you jump. If you input the pk fire one frame late, you'll get the minimum height "hop" thing that we all hate. There is no middle ground.


Requirements for a manual wavebounce:

Frame 1: input a reverse pk fire (aerial)
Frame 4: input the direction you want pk fire to move in.

The other frames don't matter at all. As long as you're doing a reverse PK fire when you start, and hold the direction you want the PK fire to move in, you're golden. Note that if you're running at them that means switching analog stick directions twice, though only one of those has a 3 frame time limit.

Requirement for a wavezap:

Frame 1: jump
Frame 2: reverse PK fire (PK fire the way you want to move)
Frame 5: hit the direction you want the pk fire to move in (opposite frame 2)

Frame whenever you feel like it: do a PsiM and go flying again.

 

[Levitas]

reserved in case of data explosion

 

[c3gill]

I am glad you brought the frame data...... those numbers are pretty crazy. Like the Zap Jump- 1 frame precision? thats ABSURD. and to think that most Lucas players are able to do this more than not, just shows the insanity of the required perfection to play Lucas on a decent level. Even worse than 1 frame (because we can just assume it is IMMEDIATLY after the first input) is properly timing 3 frames.

this info gave me warm fuzzy feelings for playing Lucas. Nice info, Levi- its good stuff!

 

[Irsic]

This gives me a pretty warm fuzzy feeling as I've pretty much perfected zap jumping.

 

[Tyr_03]

Ice Climbers are more technical.

 

[Ussi]

brawl and technical are not hand and hand.

 

[Levitas]

Depends on your definition of technical, Tyr. One frame windows are sick because the only way to guarantee a good input on such a window is to actually time it to as close to 1/60th of a second as possible. If you time it to be 1/120th of a second after, you have a 50-50 shot of falling with a pk fire. if you time it 1/30th of a second after, you have a 50-50 shot of that lame little hop. In fact, to get it w/in 90% consistency, you're usually landing it within 3/200ths of a second later and 11/600ths of a second later (.015 seconds and .018333). That window is .003333333 seconds long, which is pretty darn precise.


Wavebouncing's window is much more lenient mostly due to the fact that you can start pressing the opposite direction any time within the 2 "I don't care" frames that the b reversal gives you.

This data also proves that my conjecture from months ago is correct, that wavebouncing is a reverse b reversal.

 

[PK Starstorm]

Ok, I'm not even going to pretend I know what you guys are talking about. I've seen this "frame" stuff all over the place and have no idea what you guys are talking about. Could somebody direct me to a thread discussing what exactly this stuff means? and another thing, how is it possible for Lucas to ftilt out of shield? Does this have something to do with the frames and stuff?

 

[Levitas]

Ftilt out of shield is just dropping a shield and then ftilting

I'm talking to you about frames now, but if anyone else has questions, click my sig and we'll talk. My apologies if I don't respond immediately, just try again later if that happens.

 

[Irsic]

brawl and technical are not hand and hand.

You are a terrible troll

 

[FireKirby7]

Requirement for a wavezap:

Frame 1: jump
Frame 2: reverse PK fire (PK fire the way you want to move)
Frame 5: hit the direction you want the pk fire to move in (opposite frame 2)

Frame whenever you feel like it: do a PsiM and go flying again.

Holy crap that sounds hard. O_o
Wave zap is the one where you zap jump and wavebounce at the same time, right?
Man, if I could master that, I could recover from anywhere. Nice work on this Levitas.

 

[Levitas]

Someone claimed at one point that lucas's usmash has invincible frames. I don't believe them.

I probed key points with methods that should determine whether he does or not, and it's been all negative.

I'd appreciate it if that person backed their claim with evidence or some more specific data for me to test.

Also, Lucas's ropesnake can never be hit (contrary to my prior beliefs). Not when it's out as a zair, nor when it's about to latch to the edge, nor when it has already latched.

 

[Tyr_03]

In my opinion, something that takes frame perfect timing that isn't 100% necesary to a character's game at all and which is used relatively infrequently does not make that character more technical than a character who has a technique which is undoubtedly an integral part of their metagame (used every match no matter what the situation,) like alternate grabs, and although which does not require frame perfect timing, requires timing which varies based on opponent character weight as well as percentage that will change not only match to match but moment to moment within that match.

Ice Climbers are freaking hard to play "perfectly" or even well. Cool frame data on Lucas though.

 

[Levitas]

Difference of opinion. That's why I didn't say he has the most technical game. I said he has the most technical technical game.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol fair enough

 

[Levitas]

Lucas and ness's PKT tails are exactly as long as each other in terms of "duration"

By this, I mean when either of their bolts pass a point, the tail will cover that point for 27 frames in both cases.


Also, lucas's PKT moves at almost exactly 7/9ths the speed of ness's

 

[ToxiCrow]

Also, Lucas's ropesnake can never be hit (contrary to my prior beliefs). Not when it's out as a zair, nor when it's about to latch to the edge, nor when it has already latched.

Then what happened at 4:06 of this fight?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That video was O_O. IDK why that happened.

Awesome stuff, Levitas. Now I need to remember this topic exists come spring break so I can practice.

 

[S.D]

brawl and technical are not hand and hand.

I agree with this guy.

Good frame data Levitas, makes me feel better about missing the odd zap jump anyway. Also if ropesnake can't be hit why does it just let go of the ledge sometimes?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You mean stretching out but not grabbing it? It can only grab the ledge 3 times without you touching solid ground for some reason. Same with all tethers iirc.

Or do you mean just letting go once you're holding on for dear life?

 

[Levitas]

I got frame perfect shots at lucas's snake with another lucas dsmash, and it never hit. Maybe it has a hitbox on the head of the snake the frame it hits the edge, I'll test that sometime.

 

[ToxiCrow]

I agree with this guy.

Good frame data Levitas, makes me feel better about missing the odd zap jump anyway. Also if ropesnake can't be hit why does it just let go of the ledge sometimes?

it can be hit. look at the video i posted

I got frame perfect shots at lucas's snake with another lucas dsmash, and it never hit. Maybe it has a hitbox on the head of the snake the frame it hits the edge, I'll test that sometime.

you're a good man

 

[S.D]

it can be hit. look at the video i posted

Yeah it clearly got hit there - with insane results.

Maybe i tried to tether a 3rd time wo touching ground then. I didn't know that didn't work XD

 

[The_Bear735]

I like how Lucas's ATs work, but I can't find any consistent practical use for them, other than Bforward to Bdown in air. Zap jumping takes too much precision for something that only helps you if you're under the stage with an extra jump; extremely situational and uncommon for him.

And besides, in Brawl, AT knowledge is not as necessary because their is less focus on an understanding of how to use your character's ATs, and more on how to effectively use your character's ATs. With Lucas, it's just not as easy to pull out compared to an IC hobble.

 

[Levitas]

Zap jumping > magnet pulling.

 

[Irsic]

With a lot of practice, you can find the right situations for all of them.


I use zap jumping A LOT, it's more about hitting people with the rising PK Fire rather than hitting them with anything else once you're up there. Zap jumping requires practice, because I rarely miss it, so it's not impractical to me. I use *magnet pulling very frequently, and thundersliding. You're just not as practiced with them as you should be.

*I use all forms of magnet pulling, including FHPKF reversals, recovering (the given one) etc.

 

[Irsic]

Zap jumping > magnet pulling.

But yeah, this is still true. I use zap jumping probably more than any other technique.

 

[Levitas]

the tether gets hit for a frame or two as it grabs the edge. For a max length tether, this is frame 12. I got it to get hit on frame 12 and 13.

 

[lil cj]

Zap jumping > magnet pulling.

Agreed

I use magnet pull the most
I usually just zap jump to show off and teach noob Lucas'
how to do it lol
Imma start using it more seriously now

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

I Zap Jump more than Magnet Pull, mainly for recoveries and mindgamez. The only time I magnet pull is to manuver around the stage to recover or to mindgame. Not that much though.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Lucas is high tier

 

[prOAPC]

everybody uses magnet pull and zap jump, but almost nobody uses wave zap :S

 

[Levitas]

Nobody has enough technique to do it manually, so only people who bstick have access to it.

It is a pretty demanding technique.

 

[c3gill]

Zap jumping > magnet pulling.

i am of the opinion that neither is better than the other..... they are different AT's with different applications. If used correctly (ideally- still trying to get this down) they can both save stock. Yea they are great fun for mindgames, but when your offstage out of PKT2 range of a ledge- these things can be a lifesaver..

i find that Magnet Pulling generally has more application during matches, for me. I just feel really comfortable recovering with it from offscreen, and it has helped my game improve greatly. Zap Jumping.... well I kinda use this as a last resort, or as some stupid mindgames- mostly because i still only hit it about 50% of the time. BUT! it can have great applications in a game.

Regardless, they both are awesome AT's, and I think we all need to be able to do them at a moments notice, as it could easily be our stock on the line.

Plus, its baller to show off and tell nubs that Lucas has some of the best recovery options in the game

Lucas is high tier

you win.

 

[Levitas]

Plus, its baller to show off and tell nubs that Lucas has some of the best recovery options in the game

Yes.


However, I feel that the zap jump is more important to lucas's game. Difference of opinion, I guess.

 

[ToxiCrow]

you win.

fun fact: when i first started playing brawl, i thought lucas was gonna be high/top tier cuz i used to beat m friends with him
lol i dont think that now

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

fun fact: when i first started playing brawl, i thought lucas was gonna be high/top tier cuz i used to beat m friends with him
lol i dont think that now

lol, I thought the same thing, when I first got Brawl, I didn't know about crap or tiers, and when I started using Lucas, I was like, "This guy has strong smashes. He has to be the best!"

Now, I don't think that anymore.

 

[Natch]

lol, I thought the same thing, when I first got Brawl, I didn't know about crap or tiers, and when I started using Lucas, I was like, "This guy has strong smashes. He has to be the best!"

Now, I don't think that anymore.

I actually thought the same thing. Everyone thought Lucas was gonna be High Tier.

But I still love the guy.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I remember the OMG Lucas for high tier craze. I think it started when we realized how strong the usmash was?

Yeah...if only it stayed that way. <_<