Lucas General Discussion

[zen-bz-]

What's the best way for maneuvering around Icies' pressure? They seem to be quite a bit of trouble if the Icies player is proficient enough.

 

[D e l t a]

Watch Westballz vs Wobbles here
https://youtube.com/watch?v=9f1KNBMaXAs

Notice how he moves in and out of IC's grab range and threat zones, while punishing blizzard very well. Lucas can punish Nana very hard with quick combos. Nair is best in this MU given the multi-hits and grounded hit can shield stab and separate the ICs. Easy for crossups as well and allows Lucas to be safely in their face, unlike characters whose moves drastically decline on shield (see: Falcon, Falco, Sheik, Marth etc).

Nair, jab, Fair, and Dair all go thru ice block, and blizzard can be healed off, but make sure to be spaced slightly back so you can retaliate after the heal.

Best just to find openings and bait ICs. Platforms are your best friend in this MU. Don't get stuck in one space, and wear down their patience.

 

[zen-bz-]

Question for you guys. I didn't do this with hitlag so I've yet to learn the timings for those, but I decided to look further into this tech:
http://gfycat.com/FondPersonalBooby (lol name)
About how useful is something like this? Personally I think it would have quite a few uses because in that gfy alone I feel like Lucas covered space with the magnet and could potentially stop reckless approaches and wavelanded to reposition or follow up on the magnet hit. However I don't see it used a ton. Are there better options than this?

Sorry about all the questions, I'm a very curious person at times

 

[Volume AF]

Question for you guys. I didn't do this with hitlag so I've yet to learn the timings for those, but I decided to look further into this tech:
http://gfycat.com/FondPersonalBooby (lol name)
About how useful is something like this? Personally I think it would have quite a few uses because in that gfy alone I feel like Lucas covered space with the magnet and could potentially stop reckless approaches and wavelanded to reposition or follow up on the magnet hit. However I don't see it used a ton. Are there better options than this?

Sorry about all the questions, I'm a very curious person at times

I've been maiming Lucas for 3 months, and in the short time I've been using him in tournaments and such, this tech is very useful when pressuring on shield (I.e. Mag > Aerial Mag > Waveland), besides this I haven't experimented anything else besides following on pressure with fair, Nair or another multitude of magnets. I'd say just keep trying to combo it into reverse magnet or fair when hit. It's a really great hit and run tool IMO

 

[D e l t a]

If you use aerial magnets, you have 4 more frames to work with because you don't have to deal with jump squat frames. You won't get a perfect waveland out of aerial magnets, but it's safer on shield.

It's good you're asking questions. It keeps our boards active and we can continuously push Lucas' metagame further

 

[zen-bz-]

So as far as confirming the magnet hit goes, I'm assuming this is a good method at higher %s, but not so much at lower %s.
In terms of shield pressure, I think a WD forward instead of backward would be more beneficial to keep on magneting, or maybe just another djc depending on what to do. It could be a potential mixup. If the opponent stays in shield, you can pressure with another magnet then maybe a djc mag or aerial. If they drop it and you approach again, then it could get a confirm and again, depending on the %, you may wanna either waveland on the platform (airdodging away) or any followup normally possible out of aerial magnet, such as djc uair.

And IDK why but recently I've been having trouble doing DJC uair out of magnet. I used to be able to do it fine, but recently, I just sort of forgot and IDK how I did...it's really frustrating. Instead I either do a full DJ after or airdodge because I was waiting for the l-cancel. What I think how I normally do it is:

- SH Mag
- DJC Uair out of hitstop

But the thing is recently it seems really awkward for me. It might just be something I have to memorize with muscle memory, but idk. I could do it before but now I can't and as I said before, it's really frustrating ;_; Maybe I did:

instead? Or maybe ? I don't know. I just like FORGOT and I have no idea why. It also really infuriates me that the earliest you can act out of magnet depends on how long you have it up.

Oh well. I'll probably get the hang of it sooner or later. Just gotta keep trying it.

 

[D e l t a]

I sometimes use A and tap jump (automatically does up direction for Uair). Oher times, Z (my jump button) & Cstick.

Whatever works for you honestly

 

[zen-bz-]

How useful is wavebounce PKF in the neutral, if there are any uses of it? I know wavebounce mag has some uses and I imagine wavebounce PKF would too.

 

[nimigoha]

I find that the tricky part of using PKF is when your opponent closes the space between you. I wavebounce most of my DJCPKF since it puts me a little further away from them.

Even just running at your opponent and doing SH wavebounce PKF is okay in occasional situations.

 

[zen-bz-]

It seems that not a lot of Lucas players use d-throw > u-smash, yet it seems like it's a neat confirm/kill option to me. Why's this? Is there something better to do at around that % for each character? Or is it just because those Lucas players decide to do something else at that time/they have a reason not to?

 

[prem]

It seems that not a lot of Lucas players use d-throw > u-smash, yet it seems like it's a neat confirm/kill option to me. Why's this? Is there something better to do at around that % for each character? Or is it just because those Lucas players decide to do something else at that time/they have a reason not to?

generally dthrow upsmash only works at lower percents where it wont kill (like 0% on zelda its confirmed), and then on other characters it works at kill percents with dthrow to dacus upsmash if the opponent doesn't know the matchup and di behind them at these percents. Slight di gets around dthrow dacus for quite a few characters but on hard di a lot of people go for it

 

[D e l t a]

I use OU Upsmash on floaties like Zelda, Marth, Kirby, Mario, etc. if they don't DI. I don't believe it works on Jiggs at 0% cuz they can jump out. Depends how my combos feel that day and if the opponent has good DI / combo DI. If I can't get more than 30% I'll just Upsmash. It's also good to get momentum back or secure a lead. People get flustered by OU Upsmash lol

As for regular Upsmash, I primarily use it for killing heavies / fast fallers over 80%.

Most people don't Upsmash from Dthrow because there's tons of startup on Upsmash and the opponent can jump out and punish the end lag of whiffed Upsmash. Generally it's better to Dthrow -> Bair or Dthrow -> Uair -> Bair.

 

[Eisen]

So, this may sound a little bit weird, but I've been experimenting with using dash > jump > reverse magnet (not b-reverse/wavebound) as a bum-rushy approach over forward magnet. Of course, it's finnicky to try to experiment with on wifi, but I feel like it has merits. Namely, if you end magnet quickly enough, your momentum from the dash/jump will still be active, and thus you/Lucas will be closer to where magnet sends the opponent after launch. Also, it feels like it has potential to throw people who gravitate toward the sides of the stage off, and if they completely eat the move, they're launched offstage. Any thoughts?

 

[Xcite]

So, this may sound a little bit weird, but I've been experimenting with using dash > jump > reverse magnet (not b-reverse/wavebound) as a bum-rushy approach over forward magnet. Of course, it's finnicky to try to experiment with on wifi, but I feel like it has merits. Namely, if you end magnet quickly enough, your momentum from the dash/jump will still be active, and thus you/Lucas will be closer to where magnet sends the opponent after launch. Also, it feels like it has potential to throw people who gravitate toward the sides of the stage off, and if they completely eat the move, they're launched offstage. Any thoughts?

Might as well use wavebounce magnet if you're looking to get the same reward with a lot less risk involved. I understand that you may be looking for away to get someone offstage, but the risk is too high considering you're jumping to the opponent with no hitbox. Not saying it can't be used as a cross up, I think I could see something like that being used for techchasing.

 

[trancex]

For people looking to master DJL on battlefield-height platforms:

1: Input Jump
2: Jumpsquat
3: Jumpsquat
4: Jumpsquat
5: Jumpsquat
6,7,8,9,10,11,12: Wait
13: Input DJ

Play around with it in debug mode to get the visual cue down. Basically input the DJ on the 8th frame after your JS frames. Your bottom collision point will be about .2 Lucases below the platform.

 

[Jamwa]

i lost 8adge's post about how to shield pressure with grounded vs aerial multimags, can someone remind me what the inputs are for the best shield pressure with frame data and stuff.

 

[Scraket]

Quick overview of Lucas shield pressure in 3.5:

move | hits on frame | max shield advantage | notes
Magnet | 5+ | +4 (into jump) | repeating hits hit 8 frames after end of shieldstun; second Magnet in rotation sh->airborn Magnet->DJ->landing Magnet hits on frame 7
FAir | 5 | +0/-2 (sweetspot/sourspot)
NAir | 4 | -4
DAir | 4 |-5 | hits 2&3 hit 3/4 frames after end of shieldstun respectively
UpAir |4 | -1 | takes 5 more frames to land on hit after perfect DJC -> essentially -6
BAir | 12+ | -2/-3 (sweetspot/sourspot)
Jab 1 | 2/3 (near/far) | -10/-9 | +0/+1 into Jab 2
Jab 2 | 8 | -17
DTilt | 3 | -9
Grab | 11 | - | ignores shields (duh!)

Noticeably between 3.0 and 3.5 what I was referring to as Multimagnets v1 and v2 (or grounded and perfect Multimagnets) have somewhat switched roles. The oddity where Magnet takes longer to hit if you land before it does now due to changes to landing detection doesn't occur anymore for a Magnet performed on the first airborn frame after a jump (you land 1 frame later), which makes v1 Multimagnets much better. Due to the changes to to Magnet stalling, the second aerial Magnet in the v2 rotation now also lands faster and thus gets delayed by 2 frames. If done perfectly the difference between the two now is that v1 alway leaves a 4 frame window between shieldstun and Magnet hits, while the window alternates between 5 and 3 frames for v2. Also, as 3.0 Lucas player probably now, v2 is that much harder to do. v1 is also a bit easier now because of the additional hitlag.
Edit: You don't land too soon, but still land if you delay the first airborn magnet by an additional frame. Thus you know have the mixup between v1 (static actable no-hitbox window of 4 frames for opp), old v2 (window +1/-1) and delayed v2 (window +2/-3).
Another Edit: You can still do v2 Multimagnets almost like in 3.0, but you have to full jump or you get a 2 frame delay on the first hitbox of the second magnet and of course they lost shield advantage. Perfectly done v1 has 4 frames where the opponent can act and no hitbox is out during each iteration, v2 has a 5 frame window after the grounded and a 1 frame window after the aerial magnet (which is enough to escape with frame 2 invincible rolls/moves).

Safest bet for default pressure right now is probably grounded Multimagnets (they're also not that hard to do.) Obviously wavedashes backwards for calling hits/if scared. As for mixups, these seem effective:

• Airborn magnet: 1+ frame larger escape window between magnets but opens up most real good mixups. SH it shouldn't be reactable for the opponent until after the followup, because the visual difference is barely noticable even without the shield animations, fullhopped or delayed the difference is much more noticable. Mixups out of airborn magnet:
  • Retreating DJC FAir: Should always hit the sweetspot (-> +0) and hits on the opponent's second actionable frame, i.e. it's super safe. Also hits after a magnet connection depending on percentage.
  • Stationary DJC FAir: Relatively good advantage (depending on which hitbox connects) and also your second fastest option. Good compromise between catching fast options now and preserving advantage.
  • DJC NAir: Catches buffered spotdodges/rolls if done perfectly and also every other oos option (will also also often just keep opponent shieldstunned if they tried to manually act oos). Relatively bad advantage on shield. Can shieldpoke low.
  • DJC UAir: relatively slow, because the opponent is in front of you (will usually hit frame 7 or so, comparable to a magnet in this position), and also usually not that good on shield, because you'll take a while to land unless you ffed very well. Can shieldpoke high, though.
  • Waveland: Similar to grounded WD backwars, but a little bit faster/safer if done correctly.
  • Magnet: Leads back to grounded magnet. If you either used a full jump before the airborn magnet or delayed it to your second airborn frame from a sh the window after an airborn magnet can be significantly smaller than after a grounded magnet, but it's harder to do. Much more lenient than in 3.0 as your second magnet will fall faster and especially so if shorthopped (which is suboptimal.)
  • Hold & land: See below, about the same as for grounded Magnet. Should the opponent be able to react to airborn magnets this becomes more useful.
• JC Grab: Good ol' grab, will hit one frame later than normal grabs oos and thus lose if the opponent timed his grab equally well. Also obviously loses to spotdodge, but beats shield clean.
• DJC Aerials: Comparable to the variations out of an aerial magnet, but they take 1 frame longer (you have to DJ first) and grounded Magnet had given you 3 frames less effective advantage, making them a good deal weaker in this position.
• Holding Magnet: Just holding magnet isn't very good, but as a mixup it can throw of any timing the opponent may have.

To show what I mean with v1/v2 multimagnets:

Multimangets V1
View attachment 38275

Multimagnets V2
View attachment 39054

Jamwa

 

[Eisen]

Might as well use wavebounce magnet if you're looking to get the same reward with a lot less risk involved. I understand that you may be looking for away to get someone offstage, but the risk is too high considering you're jumping to the opponent with no hitbox. Not saying it can't be used as a cross up, I think I could see something like that being used for techchasing.

I considered that, but wavebounce isn't without risk, either. It feels really inconsistent unless you're right in their face (in order to get the release hit) since you change directions so rapidly in wavebounce. Magnet's hitbox goes inside Lucas and just a tiny bit behind his neck anyway, and hitting with his body isn't too hard, imo. Wavebounce is a lot harder of a thing to learn how to do, especially in high stakes, high pressure matches. Mess up and you could be in a very different position than you were hoping to be. Maybe that's just me because I've never cared for wavebounce until now. I feel like it has very niche uses, but enough to where I decided to pick it up, especially for PKF approaches/fakeouts.

Basically, I just feel like the added difficulty doesn't really add anything except positional advantage or preferred stage position. I guess both could be used for different situations? Wavebounce if you need to rack up on-stage combo damage, reverse if you're looking to take the stock.

 

[Jamwa]

wavebounce is worth learning, very good at baiting SH approaches and using reversed momentum + forward facing hitbox to challenge aerials

 

[D e l t a]

I could see WB mags being useful, but the hitbox comes out pretty quick (frame 5) and you can jump cancel right away on whiff, which means you can do a retreating Fair / PKF that will work better as a bait than the one mag. If it connects, you'll be +4 on their shield and be able to start shield pressure, or you'll have a combo started.

Likewise, I use approaching grounded mags and WD back as baits. It's pretty low commitment and if they connect I can get a combo started or link into a kill.

 

[zen-bz-]

Lucas has a plethora of movement options with magnet alone and I really want to start utilizing them more. B turnaround, b reverse, and wavebounce mags are all super amazing to use to position yourself optimally. I want to practice these for SF2 and I want to really show how it can be used.

Some useful stuff I found via experimentation and whatnot:
This is assuming mag hits don't connect:
Run in a direction -> b turnaround mag -> djc uair with better hitbox
Run behind opponent -> b turnaround/reverse mag (dependent on position) -> djc fair (sweetspot should work if spaced right)
A pretty obvious one, but b turnaround mag near the ledge into bair works against opponents recovering high really well.
If any of the mag hits connect you can link them into uair or nair (again fairly self explanatory/obvious)
Also you can b turnaround mags against spacies/fastfallers who fail to DI and just grounded mag -> wd back into turnaround mag them over and over for easy %

I'll definitely work on mag positioning more and see what other cool stuff I can find.

 

[D e l t a]

A huge difference between Melee and PM, yet rarely talked about, is RAR (Reverse Aerial Rush). If this were not in the game, magnet positioning could be huge. Since it's not, I feel like whiffing a reverse magnet then DJC'ing an up air is to say the least, pointless. You're sacrificing a double jump and wasting extra frames to throw a move out.

I like reverse mags to run behind -> crossup shield into anything like a Fair / Nair especially. Grounded turnaround Mag on shield -> grab is a great mixup as the magnet holds them in shield just long enough to JC into a grab. Mag -> grab is highly underused.

==

IMO, the main use for turnaround mags is aerial combos. Almost always, magnet turnaround -> Bair is best. Seen when following up sourspot Fairs the opponent DI's hard in, or when they get hit by the furthest hitbox in front of Lucas' Uair that sends opponents slightly forward and upwards that sets up for a Bair.

If you're fast enough, turnaround -> Uair to throw in some jank DI mixups could prove interesting, but again, I feel that landing while holding the opposite direction (a 1 frame turnaround) into an immediate jump to get a followup would work better.

==

Lemme know if you find anything else on magnet stuff. Personally I only see magnet positioning good for crossups on shield or finishing combos.

 

[trancex]

Have you guys tried doing RAR DJC uairs to whiff punish at mid percents? It's better to RAR because the 1st hitbox comes out behind him, it comes out fast, and has great combo potential.

 

[D e l t a]

Actually, no lol. Gonna try this maybe. The only reason I don't use it is simply because there's virtually 0 hitstun on the move and it really sucks when the opponent ASDI's down and punishes me for trying to punish them. I did Dthrow (no DI) -> Uair against a Diddy around 30% and they immediately smash attacked me out of my ending lag.......

 

[MelloGrunty]

something i'm struggling with is playing at the ledge while recovering. i recently watched pink fresh playing at super project mondays @ xanadu, and i'm trying to do some of the funky shenanigans he does (like dropping down, magnet, re-tether, drop down, magnet delay to bait an attack and ledgedash back on). i haven't looked back at the vods yet so it's probably not exactly stuff like that, but that's sort of what i can remember off the top of my head. does anyone have some recommendations on how to play better at ledge? i remember seeing gifs someone (i think it was delta?) posted about jumping from ledge and using magnet on the first few available frames to cancel momentum, and i'm labbing it but i haven't gotten it to a decent success rate. until i get better at it and other options, i'm stuck with doing scrubby fairs and djc nairs after ledgehops. i figure that while i'm labbing the magnet to a 9/10 point, i should mess around and practice other ledge mixups, and if you guys have recommendations for that sorta thing i'd appreciate them a lot.

also, i remember there being a highlighted part in the DJC video that talked about using DJC to maintain ledge invincibility while throwing out a fair. is that still possible, or has the removal of strong disjoint gotten rid of that?

while we're talking about ledge game, does anyone have recommendations for edgeguarding? maybe certain tools to exploit, or ways to practice spiking people with bair before they can get to ledge? possibly stuff like interrupting recoveries with PK freeze or PK thunder? for example, i remember scraket showed me a way to drop down and magnet against tether recoveries to interrupt them while they reel up.

 

[nimigoha]

Jumping from ledge below 100% instantly has ~16 frames of actionable intangibility (if I'm reading the frame data correctly, that seems a bit high...) which is plenty of time to throw out a magnet. If you do it quickly (like the first or second airborne frame) then you should be able to wavedash out of it if you hit a shield. Will play around with this in debug to see how long you're intangible and whether it gets through shield before you can get grabbed.

But ledgejump>magnet is a really really solid option to get back on stage.

DJC Fair still works with intangibility.

I wouldn't recommend edgeguarding with Up B since it has so much endlag (unless you want to clank another Lucas/Ness Up B for real cheese but they're pretty easy to edgeguard so I'd file that under unnecessary style lol).

There's no real catchall edge guarding strat, we've got 41 matchups, most with unique recoveries. Are there any that are giving you trouble?

My roommate (not going to win any majors soon but he can SH Bair waveland with Ike) was giving me trouble edgeguarding (Ike's big dumb stick) but recently I've figured it out. If he Up Bs above stage, it's actually not too difficult to sweetspot a Fair, Magnet turnaround, then drop down and grab ledge and you're pretty covered. If he Up Bs at stage level without a perfect sweetspot, Lucas's late Dash Attack is a killer. Looking forward to trying these out on slightly more skillful Ikes haha but it was fun to figure it out for myself. That being said, there are a bunch of people here who likely have opponents who play different characters including ones you might have trouble edge guarding so ask specifics for sure!

Drop down to Magnet will certainly hurt Z tethers because of the slow reel up but ZSS and Ivy can reel really quickly and might be able to do it and get around Magnet depending on their position.

 

[zen-bz-]

Yeah I agree that strong hit uair may be better with RAR than b turnaround mag. B reverse mag however could potentially lead to a DJC Uair even if the hit doesn't connect.
If the initial hitbox of mag hits the opponent, it leads into a DJC uair at lower % or another aerial mag followup.
If the original hitbox doesn't get them, they fade back and head back in, DJC uair could still connect if they fail to respect range.
------------------------------------------------
Today I decided to see how mag could be utilized with PS2 platforms. Let's assume Lucas is right here:

Both the opponent and Lucas have various options they can do here. I'd like to think that Lucas running off and using mag can cover some of the options the opponent has.
This can be applied to Lucas running off on any side or either platform. For the sake of testing, I decided to do it with Lucas running inward. Explaining running outward in theory shouldn't be too difficult, though feel free to correct it.

Here's a video of three options Lucas has with mag while on a platform: b turnaround, b reverse, and wavebounce - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEgMo0AhMzQ
(I couldn't get a gfy because gfycat was being dumb)

Starting with b turnaround:

I personally don't see this as very useful if Lucas is heading inward unless the opponent overextends to the left/right (dependent on stage position). When Lucas heads near the edge however, the opponent is more likely to go for an edgeguard situation. As such, throwing out a b turnaround mag can potentially convert into an edgeguard situation for Lucas as opposed to against him due to a connecting hit. If the opponent has a longer range I'd advise against this unless the hit is near confirmed. Then there's also the possibility of a flub and getting the reverse hit, so you'd need to be well spaced for this and know that the hit can be confirmed.
EDIT: After testing some other stuff turnaround mag may be useful for landing sweetspot fair.

I don't like b turnaround mag as much as b reverse mag in this scenario. I actually find b reverse mag to be a lot more useful.

It's similar to b turnaround except it's a lot more likely to connect. You cover the option of if the opponent is under the platform yet positioned on either side instead of the center, as opposed to completely on the other side of it. You also get some of the same benefits as a b turnaround mag where it can convert into combos or edgeguard situations. Also, it's good for catching people off guard and there won't be a lot of time for them to react.

I don't find wavebounce mag useful at all. It barely repositions you and the same could be done with a shield drop mag or just a regular platform drop, but wavebounce mag requires more inputs and precision with them. I won't use this.
Thoughts?

 

[D e l t a]

Check out my post "Lucas Semi-Hax Dash." Complete dissection there of what I'm describing.

Ledge jump magnet is fully invincible until the jump cancel window. At that point, you can JC grab, waveland back to ledge or go forward, input a DJC Fair, etc. Lots of options to give yourself some breathing room.

If you do a frame perfect ledge jump the second you grab ledge (not hard, just mash jump or buffer the jump holding Cstick up), then input magnet 8-9 frames after Lucas jumps from ledge. The visual cue is looking as his feet when you're just over the ledge. In debug mode, you'll notice a dust cloud appear the frame you can act. Practice that timing and it becomes super easy to be consistent with.

There's also wavelands from ledge jump under 100% that Hyperflame is a bigger fan of. I like ledge jump mags because I can force my opponent to respect my range at the ledge and if they get to close, it pulls them offstage and sets up for a ledge guard reversal, where I'm no longer at a disadvantage.

I'm still working on labbing ledge jump -> ledge cancelled DJC Fair which should be safer, but more difficult in execution. Haven't gotten it yet, but I want to practice this again soon.

==

To practice Bair spikes at the ledge, get Fox CPU in training mode, throw them offstage, pause for a slight second (stops the Fox from acting), then punish their UpB. You'll learn the timing as it's consistent, and the spacing is up to you. If you throw them off normally, they'll double jump sweetspot the ledge; this is where the pause is most important.

Same thing goes for Ike. I learned to punish his recovery after practicing an hour or so every day just trying to punish the UpB. On that note, best times to punish are if you can get underneath him and use a rising Uair when his sword is near Battlefield platform height, or if he's low to the ground, you can Bair spike him easily with a falling Bair.

 

[D e l t a]

Sorry for double post, but zen-bz- being airborne with a grounded opponent right below him, there's little Lucas can really do. I like the magnet options he can do if say and opponent is rushing at him on a platform and they're farther away. Then wavebounce mag allows him to retreat with a JC-able, forward facing hitbox. And falling off plats with mags at the beginning of matches is a nice mixup I've begun using. As for the turnaround mag, that's better as a mixup. If the opponent thinks you're going to run away off the platform and they try to chase you, a quick magnet turnaround in their face could catch them off guard. At that position on a platform however, a drop down Nair / Dair would suffice better than any other tricky counter attack.

 

[Kipcom]

After thinking about it for a bit, I don't want fair to be a sex kick at all. I like the relatively low amount of endlag fair has in the air.


Non transcendent nair to beat some projectiles would be cool though.

 

[D e l t a]

Could make it somewhere in-between Luigi Nair and Lucas a fair. Something like Marth's Fair

Like, I get the whole "got gud" or learn to be better at timing & spacing, but with the need for close to frame perfect timing to consistently go even with projectiles and the risk being getting hit by said projectiles, it's pretty lame how bad Fair is. Especially since I can use any other character that has similar hitboxes that stay out longer and beat projectiles 10x easier. I.e. Marth, Snake, GnW, Ivy, Fox/Falco, etc.

IMO the character that comes closest to Lucas in terms of our problem with projectiles would be Wolf. Even then, he has a reflector, more powerful CC and higher traction to punish projectiles at lower %'s, and his Blaster which is better on startup and cooldown compared to PKF. Starting to see more and more why Neon chose Wolf....

 

[trancex]

Check out my post "Lucas Semi-Hax Dash." Complete dissection there of what I'm describing.

Ledge jump magnet is fully invincible until the jump cancel window. At that point, you can JC grab, waveland back to ledge or go forward, input a DJC Fair, etc. Lots of options to give yourself some breathing room.

If you do a frame perfect ledge jump the second you grab ledge (not hard, just mash jump or buffer the jump holding Cstick up), then input magnet 8-9 frames after Lucas jumps from ledge. The visual cue is looking as his feet when you're just over the ledge. In debug mode, you'll notice a dust cloud appear the frame you can act. Practice that timing and it becomes super easy to be consistent with.

There's also wavelands from ledge jump under 100% that Hyperflame is a bigger fan of. I like ledge jump mags because I can force my opponent to respect my range at the ledge and if they get to close, it pulls them offstage and sets up for a ledge guard reversal, where I'm no longer at a disadvantage.

I'm still working on labbing ledge jump -> ledge cancelled DJC Fair which should be safer, but more difficult in execution. Haven't gotten it yet, but I want to practice this again soon.

==

To practice Bair spikes at the ledge, get Fox CPU in training mode, throw them offstage, pause for a slight second (stops the Fox from acting), then punish their UpB. You'll learn the timing as it's consistent, and the spacing is up to you. If you throw them off normally, they'll double jump sweetspot the ledge; this is where the pause is most important.

Same thing goes for Ike. I learned to punish his recovery after practicing an hour or so every day just trying to punish the UpB. On that note, best times to punish are if you can get underneath him and use a rising Uair when his sword is near Battlefield platform height, or if he's low to the ground, you can Bair spike him easily with a falling Bair.

It seems to me that Hyperflame doesn't really go for ledgejump wavelands. He does traditional ledgedashes from a ledgehop, presumably to be consistent above 100% and below and because you get an extra frame of invincibility if you're frame perfect.

 

[D e l t a]

Not saying he always does it. I was saying as opposed to throwing out the magnet hitbox then wavedashing out, he simply will ledge jump waveland and skip magnets altogether.

 

[trancex]

Ah, I see that now.

 

[Eisen]

Advice against Fox/Falco in neutral? Their nair approach is really hard to stuff and seems to... outrange magnet? Maybe it was just the last couple times I tried it, but Fox's nair just completely destroyed my magnet approaches. DJC stuff is hardly rewarding in that MU... or as the character in general I feel like.

 

[max$]

Hey everyone I'm not new to smash but I am new to the boards. I am having a bit of trouble with SH Magnet > DJC Aerial. Also for my control scheme I have tap jump off and I jump with Y.

ALL Help is very much appreciated.

 

[nimigoha]

Hey everyone I'm not new to smash but I am new to the boards. I am having a bit of trouble with SH Magnet > DJC Aerial. Also for my control scheme I have tap jump off and I jump with Y.

ALL Help is very much appreciated.

How long have you been playing PM/Lucas/smash and what other smash games do you play?

You need tap jump on with Lucas, hands down. I'd also recommend Z to jump but that's why I asked the above questions, whether you're a seasoned Melee player or a Smash 4 player would affect this.

 

[max$]

I have been playing Smash for about 10 months now mostly Melee. Just Recently got into PM and Lucas. Also a Fox main in Melee. Also about my button scheme I saw that Pink Fresh turns tap jump off so I tried it and it kinda stuck with me. Is it necessary to use tap jump or can i do all the same tech with it off.

 

[nimigoha]

You can it's just unnecessarily more difficult. That will be why you're having trouble with Magnet>DJC aerial. Your right thumb is trying to do 3 things in very quick succession! Easier to jump out of magnet with Tap Jump and Aerial with Cstick or A. Or, like me, jump out with Z depending on the situation.

Raw DJC Fair/Uair will also be incredibly difficult with just Y to jump. The best way is jump button for your grounded jump and then Tap Jump for the DJ, which is better since even if you hold it you won't do a rising aerial.

 

[zen-bz-]

Hey everyone I'm not new to smash but I am new to the boards. I am having a bit of trouble with SH Magnet > DJC Aerial. Also for my control scheme I have tap jump off and I jump with Y.

ALL Help is very much appreciated.

PREFACE:
I HIGHLY recommend you turn tap jump on. In fact, it's not even a recommendation. It's just a necessity in my opinion. Leaving it off will hinder you in a lot of cases with DJC aerials, most notably uair.
With that aside:
A good idea is to try and split up your actions evenly amongst both of your hands. I know PewPewU made a video on it a while back describing how splitting your actions means less stress on one hand and greater consistency when performing tech. The example he used was Falco shine bair. If you just use the left stick for the down portion of down b (maybe side portion of bair), then your right hand will rush to b, then y, then a/c stick. Take that, as opposed to down on left stick for down b, then up to jump. This splits up the actions amongst your hands and it's another reason why I find tap jump on to be so useful, especially DJC aerials. Going from y -> tap jump -> up on c stick or a is much easier to me than y -> y -> a/up on c stick
As for performing different aerials with DJC mag, it's personal preference but I try to follow the "split up my actions" rule as much as I can.
Really the two main hits you'll connect out of SH DJC mag are Uair (most common) and nair (less common yet still useful).
Uair - Mag -> Up on left stick -> up on c stick. Hitting A is also good because your hand is near that spot from hitting b. I just prefer c stick for any aerial that isn't nair.
Nair - Mag -> Press y -> Press a. YES I know this breaks the rule but I find it necessary to. Trying to do it with tap jump is too inconsistent IMO, due to an accidental uair when you mean to go with nair. This deals more % yet knocks opponents away from you AND they can SDI it. So this is a good mixup yet I wouldn't recommend doing djc nair primarily out of mag.

I know sometimes fair works as well but you'll just end up getting the sour spot most of the time and you could be doing something better/more guaranteed (see uair).

Hope this helps!