Lucas General Discussion

[20PK]

http://smashboards.com/threads/watching-little-boys-a-lucas-video-thread.331871/page-8#post-18789580

Posts vids in vids thread. Feel free to feed me feedback.

 

[PubstarJones]

Do you guys have any tips for dealing with crouch cancelling? Lately I've been struggling against characters with combo starting d-tilts, because they are always crouching. I find myself getting destroyed by Roy because no matter what I hit him with, I just get a d-tilt to the face. I'm just trying to find out if I'm just picking the wrong moves, or is it just bad spacing/flubs.

 

[D e l t a]

Do you guys have any tips for dealing with crouch cancelling? Lately I've been struggling against characters with combo starting d-tilts, because they are always crouching. I find myself getting destroyed by Roy because no matter what I hit him with, I just get a d-tilt to the face. I'm just trying to find out if I'm just picking the wrong moves, or is it just bad spacing/flubs.

My personal practice sessions include doing something around the following:

Pracfice fighting the 'Bowser dummy'

Get a second controller holding 'up' before you plug it in so that Bowser constantly crouches. Enter either training mode, set to 'control' for whichever controller is plugged in, and keep resetting the %. Or enter normal mode & set to 0.5x damage ratio. Make sure when you attack Bowser to keep him constantly looking stunned or make him get knocked back / knocked down.

Consistently cross up the opponent on shield or in general. Your attack will hit them and make them face forward while you go behind them. The only thing that will get you immediately is if they CC Fsmash / Ftilt behind you or are expecting the cross-up and turn around to attack you.

The best moves I find to combat CC Dtilt / Dsmash's are cross-up Dair/Nair. The multi-hitboxes from Lucas can't be crouch cancelled, whereas Uair hits above you, Bair has a decent amount of end lag and would have to be RAR'd, and Fair can be CCd easily at most %'s.

Against Roy / characters that CC, they're expecting you to attack– go for more grabs (sparingly of course). Be safe on spacing and take note of every time you get CC'd– Were you spaced incorrectly? Was your attack too weak? What was their %?

 

[Mao Gakuji]

I've been using DJC NAir->DTilt a lot to push opponents towards the ledge without much commitment. When you fastfall a DJC NAir it also beats ccing clean (edit) at mid percentages against heavies (/edit) (forces a knockdown), although I didn't think of that before and usually fell back to spamming Magnet against ccing opponents. In particular DJC NAir feels like it fits better into a Magnet/DJC FAir neutral than sh NAir.

Made a 3.5 TAS :

It's so...beautiful...I have no words to describe this.

 

[20PK]

Randomly played ZSS against a scrub the other day and I like her play style a lot so pulling a Pink Fresh and gonna make her my secondary. Good complement to Lucas you think (covers any bad matchups/balances out playstyle/etc.)? Not as good as my Lucas yet obvs.

 

[Eisen]

@Badge I was actually coming into this thread to post about how little of commitment Dtilt is and how well it can combo into Lucas' other moves. It's better to rush in with a dtilt than a magnet, because there's less commitment. If you land the dtilt, go crazy, but otherwise fall back. One drawback to it though is you have to get in quite deep and have some momentum, otherwise the opponent will go too far to follow up with anything but dash attack or something.

I'll try to see what kind of success I can get with nair > dtilt approaches.

Also, at 0:37 in the TAS video is why I think that middle flub hit on fair needs to be gone lol

 

[D e l t a]

@Badge I was actually coming into this thread to post about how little of commitment Dtilt is and how well it can combo into Lucas' other moves. It's better to rush in with a dtilt than a magnet, because there's less commitment. If you land the dtilt, go crazy, but otherwise fall back. One drawback to it though is you have to get in quite deep and have some momentum, otherwise the opponent will go too far to follow up with anything but dash attack or something.

I'll try to see what kind of success I can get with nair > dtilt approaches.

Also, at 0:37 in the TAS video is why I think that middle flub hit on fair needs to be gone lol

tl;dr I like Dtilt as a mixup and it's a cool move that I've gotten used to in 3.5.

==

The hitbox of Dtilt has better priority and range as well as knockback. Magnet takes a few longer frames to come out, but is safer on shield and has better followup potential. Dtilt's knockback doesn't allow for as many guaranteed followups either. They both take a bit of running momentum to pull off unless you WD forward then do the move. Both solid options at most %'s.

Dtilt is a nice momentum starter in neutral in terms of making your opponent being forced to retaliate from the knockback on hit or from getting hit in shield. They either have to shield grab the Dtilt (buffer a spot dodge after Dtilt possibly?) or the Dtilt sends them back enough that you could followup afterwards. I like using PKF or dash dancing -> aerial afterward. Dash attack sometimes works.

***** One thing any Lucas mains aspiring to become Neon level or higher should try doing is use running DJC Fair instead of dash attack. For instance, I use Dtilt -> DJC Fair in place of dash attack on most characters and I've found greater success as it's way less commitment and can followup into any of the followups you normally get from Fair. If it lands on shield it's way safer than dash attack on shield *****

Nair -> Dtilt is pretty safe pressure overall. Nair is really good if you land the aerial and ground hitbox then followup with Dtilt. The knockback is pretty weird when you land both hits in rapid succession and has better followups than just hitting them with Dtilt or Nair. Maybe that's just me lol

 

[Pwii]

Ok, I've been messing around with techchases after reading Gravy's optimal techchase guide for Melee falcon, and I think I've come up with a really good way to techchase spacies. Basically if you're close enough to punish a tech in place with a magnet, I feel you're close enough to react to tech rolls away with dash attack/fair, which pops them up into a combo. I don't know how to apply the frame data math, but after testing it a bit on cpus in training mode I think it's feasible. What do you guys think?

 

[D e l t a]

Ok, I've been messing around with techchases after reading Gravy's optimal techchase guide for Melee falcon, and I think I've come up with a really good way to techchase spacies. Basically if you're close enough to punish a tech in place with a magnet, I feel you're close enough to react to tech rolls away with dash attack/fair, which pops them up into a combo. I don't know how to apply the frame data math, but after testing it a bit on cpus in training mode I think it's feasible. What do you guys think?

Meant to drop this info somewhere:

Lucas can cover tech in place with magnet, JC grab if they tech roll away at the spot where your magnet would normally hit the standing tech, or JC the magnet into a short hop Bair / Dair / Nair going behind you if they tech roll towards you.

Can also magnet at the spot where they would tech in place and wavedash out or release magnet -> turn around grab.

 

[Pwii]

Meant to drop this info somewhere:

Lucas can cover tech in place with magnet, JC grab if they tech roll away at the spot where your magnet would normally hit the standing tech, or JC the magnet into a short hop Bair / Dair / Nair going behind you if they tech roll towards you.

Can also magnet at the spot where they would tech in place and wavedash out or release magnet -> turn around grab.

Whaaaaaat is that frame tight?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Glad to see you're still at it @Badge always entertaining

 

[D e l t a]

Whaaaaaat is that frame tight?

uhh I'm not 100% sure. Somebody check my frame data calculations haha. I theory craft in a more general sense, but here's what I came up with:

Grab takes 11 frames + 4 frames to jump cancel + however many frames it takes you to react to a tech roll. If predicting tech in place, you'll be holding magnet to hit them the first frame they're not intangible from the tech in place.

Let's say it takes you about 4-7 frames to react to tech roll as opposed to tech in place. They've been rolling for about half of the roll animation at this point so you can most likely perform the JC grab out of magnet without needing to be frame tight. Even if you're a little bit slower than the 7 frames reaction, the average player will pull up shield in expecting you to attack right after if you condition them to think this way. There's also a number frames where the opponent is vulnerable and unable to pull up shield or spot dodge.

tl;dr If you condition the opponent to pull up shield because you tech chase using aerial attacks, you might be able to pull off magnet to cover no tech / tech in place then read the tech roll away and punish with the JC grab. If you're slightly off on the timing, you may still get lucky and grab them in the first few frames they start to pull up shield.

 

[D e l t a]

Adding on to the above post...

Extra blurb about grabs & tech chases
It may be that it's late and I like to ramble on, but enjoy my breakdown of why this works if you choose to read on further.

When Lucas players get all hyper aggressive with their attacks, shield pressure, and tech chasing, they sometimes forget to keep it simple and go for grabs. If you're a player that begins attacking constantly during tech chases, the opponent will begin to buffer pulling up shield.
**Be aware that players like myself will use a buffered spot dodge to avoid being grabbed on getup (hold shield + Cstick down)**
The first available frame you are active, the character will start a spot dodge. This can be used to punish players who are off by more than a frame with their tech chases. Sometimes it's better to attack in these tech chase situations, other times not. Generally if you're too slow to perform this tech, go for Nair / Dair as a followup on tech chases rather than magnet -> grab because of the low commitment and multiple hitboxes available from Nair/Dair.

When does tech chasing as mentioned above with magnet occur?

• Weak hit SH Fair
  • Approx. 20-40% on some floaties & most midweights, 30-70% on fast fallers & heavies
  • If you're landing and going to followup with a magnet, you'll be accounting for the lag from Fair, time for magnet to startup and hitlag from magnet to hit them. This will cover no tech, tech in place, and as mentioned above, tech roll away.
  • **The tech chase situation mentioned above will almost always happen after these types of SH Fairs and rarely at other times.**
• Dair pop-up
  • Obv. the pop-up takes till about 20% on every character not crouch cancelling, so on floaties it prob won't ever happen since they'll go too high up past 30% On heavies/ffers it could work around 40-70% due to massive hitstun from pop-up
  • The way that Dair hits, you have to be on top of them. To followup with magnet means you're precisely positioning yourself, at which point you're trying too hard There's probably way better [guaranteed] followups at this point.
• Magnet when not CC'd, but DI'd slightly down & mostly away or no DI with the lower %'s
  • Doubtful on floaties at any %, possible on heavier midweights & fast fallers from 30-60%?
  • Less frequent to happen, but still a possibility. You want to style so you go for magnet -> magnet stuff. After magnet, chasing down with another magnet and the enemy having fall into this sort of situation seems very rare IMO
• Down Throw on fast fallers if they DI fully behind you
  • Happens at mid % - approx. 40ish up to 80% Anything above below and they'll just hit the ground right away or go too far to followup
  • Probably something more optimal to use than Dthrow in this case. Upthrow will get guaranteed Uair/Bair followups and if your back is to the ledge, back throw would clearly be the best choice hands down.

 

[20PK]

I haven't read all the recent Lucas discussion here so I might be bringing up points already covered, apologies in advance.

For some reason these last couple of days something just clicked in me and I've been able to extend combos, whereas before I wouldn't at all nearly - I think it's a combination of me playing a little ZSS and also realizing I should use FAir more. Among other things I found myself doing DJC PKF -> grounded magnet -> wavedash back -> (DJC) BAir a couple of times. I suspect this has limited usage however, given that the distance of the wavedash back needs to correspond to the magnet knockback.

Also, I've been practising grounded magnet to DJC aerials, mostly FAir, quite a lot. I can get it most of the time, but again magnet knockback often proves to be a problem. Grounded magnet to rising aerial sometimes works, depending on the magnet knockback. FAir -> DJC mag with significant knockback from magnet might avoid the problem of extending the combo, but it seems to me to be slower than vice versa, although maybe that's just because I'm not as used to it? IDK.

Also, I seem to be doing rising aerials when I try and do aerial magnet to DJC, or if not rising aerials than at least aerials at a significant height. Is it possible to get them closer to the ground or is the combo only limited to usage when the opponents at that specific height in the air?

 

[D e l t a]

I haven't read all the recent Lucas discussion here so I might be bringing up points already covered, apologies in advance.

DJC PKF -> grounded magnet -> wavedash back -> (DJC) BAir a couple of times. I suspect this has limited usage however, given that the distance of the wavedash back needs to correspond to the magnet knockback.

Also, I've been practising grounded magnet to DJC aerials, mostly FAir, quite a lot. I can get it most of the time, but again magnet knockback often proves to be a problem. Grounded magnet to rising aerial sometimes works, depending on the magnet knockback. FAir -> DJC mag with significant knockback from magnet might avoid the problem of extending the combo, but it seems to me to be slower than vice versa, although maybe that's just because I'm not as used to it? IDK.

Also, I seem to be doing rising aerials when I try and do aerial magnet to DJC, or if not rising aerials than at least aerials at a significant height. Is it possible to get them closer to the ground or is the combo only limited to usage when the opponents at that specific height in the air?

The first combo you mention is a thing. I do this a lot actually, but I don't DJC the Bair, I'll simply short hop the Bair. Grounded magnet -> short hop aerial works from 0-70% and it's something that I do a lot. Mag -> aerial works especially well on space animals. I'll use Mag -> Bair at low % and unless they CC the magnet, the Bair will either force them into a jab reset situation, or you can followup according to the way they get knocked back

Short hop your magnets into Fair / Uair. The reason you may be thrown off is that it takes 4 frames longer to use a DJC Fair from a grounded magnet than with an aerial magnet due to the jumpsquat frames (similar to Fox/Falco's shine -> aerial)

If you accidentally are doing rising aerials, make sure you're tapping the jump button, rather than holding it. I use jump -> tap jump -> cstick for DJC aerials. Tap jump allows a 4 frame jump buffer and will input jump for 1 frame rather than acting as holding a jump button.

 

[D e l t a]

The one nice thing about Lucas being in Smash 4 now is all the new avatars and user created content on sites like Deviantart. Finally we can update our pictures lol

 

[20PK]

The one nice thing about Lucas being in Smash 4 now is all the new avatars and user created content on sites like Deviantart. Finally we can update our pictures lol

I don't even like smash4 but I cried during that trailer

 

[One Approved]

Just wondering, what do you guys use to set up kills on the really floaty characters? I was playing against a Kirby the other day, and getting the damage added up onto him wasn't any more difficult, but once he got to anything resembling a high %, the usual Dair -> Up Smash didn't work, because he was too floaty and would be sent too high from the Dair. I know that Up Throw is a good way to kill them, but I don't know of any ways to set it up other than PK Freeze, which I feel gets pretty obvious after a while. Do you guys have any suggestions for KO setups? Doesn't have to be with up throw/up smash, just anything that can get the job done.

 

[D e l t a]

Just wondering, what do you guys use to set up kills on the really floaty characters? Do you guys have any suggestions for KO setups?

Note: "high %" for floaties is 70-100, mid % is about 40-70. For everybody else (heavier weights / fast fallers), mid % typically occurs around 60-90, high % around 100-130.

tl;dr Make sure to secure kills at high %, otherwise you will have to be patient and attempt to find a grab or convert off a PKF -> Fair / Nair. Fish for Dair -> Upsmash at high %, Dair If they get too much % on them, fish for Uair kills. These are relatively safe and have little room to punish.

==

The best kill options from lowest to highest %

• Dair -> OU Upsmash
  • Works from 55-90% for the most part. Covers tons of vertical space and the OU adds an extra kick
• Dair -> Upsmash
  • Your basic BnB combo. Only kills reliably from 60-80%. Anything more / less and they'll either not die or they can jump out
• Sweetspot Bair
  • Guaranteed if spacing is correct. Occurs from ending of a Uair combo string or pop-up after Dair.
  • Kills begin around 90% if sweet spotted, 120% if not fully sweetspotted
• PKF -> Upthrow
  • Check the upthrow kill %'s for exact numbers in my Lucas guide. They're listed under the table in the section "compendium for Upthrow kill %" Rough estimate is 120% minimum to kill on most stages
  • If they aren't jumping out of PKF, shielding it, or countering the PKF in any way, wait a half a second after PKF hits, then go to grab. If you don't wait, the grab will whiff. Waiting can also bait a double jump
• PKF -> Nair / Sweetspot Fair
  • 120-140% roughly. Make sure the final hit of Nair connects to send them flying. For Fair, be spaced out to hit with the tip of the move
• Uair (typically while they're in the air)
  • This move is very underrated in 3.5 as it has more knockback which results in better kill potential. In 3.02, the move would not kill until 200%+ whereas 3.5 Uair secures kills beginning around 160% off the top
  • If closer to the ground, Uair will take closer to 170-180% before it closes out stocks
  • Very safe to fish for. High risk reward

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

What about DJC Dair > Fsmash? Does that not work anymore?

 

[Pwii]

Just wondering, what do you guys use to set up kills on the really floaty characters? I was playing against a Kirby the other day, and getting the damage added up onto him wasn't any more difficult, but once he got to anything resembling a high %, the usual Dair -> Up Smash didn't work, because he was too floaty and would be sent too high from the Dair. I know that Up Throw is a good way to kill them, but I don't know of any ways to set it up other than PK Freeze, which I feel gets pretty obvious after a while. Do you guys have any suggestions for KO setups? Doesn't have to be with up throw/up smash, just anything that can get the job done.

Dair->Bair can work sometimes. The best thing to do is abuse their high percent to get stage control. Use nairs and fairs to get the off to edgeguard them, or uair to juggle them. Lucas is actually fairly good at juggling because he jumps so high so fast with uair, it really pressures them. But yeah, I'd just go for edgeguards / juggles until you get it.

Also the timing is tight, but I believe if they botch the DI on a dthrow you can bair. I have trouble doing it, but it's an option that stops working around the time uthrow kills. Also good DI for uthrow is death Di for bthrow, so don't forget that.

 

[D e l t a]

I listed the guaranteed kills. Of course you can always get Dthrow -> Bair kills around 90-110% if their DI is bad both on the Dthrow and possibly the Bair

What about DJC Dair > Fsmash? Does that not work anymore?

Once again, I listed guaranteed kills. You can obviously catch the opponent off guard with first / second hit of Dair. Fsmash / Ftilt flub hit work pretty well. The only thing is that they can do is CC shield / spot dodge / roll / any action below 10 frames startup and escape IMO

EDIT: 1st / 2nd hit of Dair -> Fsmash wasn't a true combo in 3.02 IIRC. In 3.5 they only added about 3 frames more end lag to his Dair, so this should still be possible to get DJC Dair -> Fsmash as you mentioned

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Uh, it was definitely a combo in 3.02, which is why I asked. DJC First Hit Dair > Fsmash WAS definitely possible

 

[D e l t a]

I'd have to re-check to make sure, but I thought you could CC the Dair then shield in 3.02 before Lucas' Fsmash came out?

Edit: So I double checked his frame data and apparently Fsmash comes out on frame 7.... 0_0

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

If we're taking that into consideration why list Dair > Usmash if they can SDI into the ground and tech away?

Yes, Lucas Fsmash is very fast, that's why it worked, loool.

 

[D e l t a]

If you get ONLY the 3rd hit of Dair that pops them up, from there it's a free Upsmash / Bair at the %'s listed

Side note: this is something I've been working on to avoid my opponent SDI'ing into the ground

As for Dair -> Fsmash, I always thought his Fsmash came out like frame 10-15 LOL. I'll double check this tomorrow. The more I look at the numbers, the more it seems like this will still work in 3.5

 

[D e l t a]

Yes, Lucas Fsmash is very fast, that's why it worked, loool.

Brb gonna start spamming Fsmash for kills more often haha

 

[Scraket]

in 3.02 first hit of djc dair was an infinite that you could get a free fsmash out of. I've heard that the djc dairs only work at higher percents in 3.5 but I'm not sure if the fsmash still works

 

[Sartron]

I'd have to re-check to make sure, but I thought you could CC the Dair then shield in 3.02 before Lucas' Fsmash came out?

Edit: So I double checked his frame data and apparently Fsmash comes out on frame 7.... 0_0

Forward Smash comes out on frame 14.

 

[D e l t a]

I'm gonna go with first hit Dair being able to combo into Fsmash. Most people don't even react to the first hit or are in too much hit stun. And yes, the first hit was an infinite if you were fast enough in 3.02, whereas 3.5 works at higher % due to increased grounded hitstun relative to %

 

[D e l t a]

Forward Smash comes out on frame 14.

How come in the frame data it's listed as "active hitboxes frame 7-9," unless I read this wrong somehow

 

[Sartron]

How come in the frame data it's listed as "active hitboxes frame 7-9," unless I read this wrong somehow

You forgot to include the 7 frames of startup that is listed right before it.

 

[D e l t a]

Ok. I thought that was saying 7 frames before the active hitboxes were out. Thanks for the correction. 14 frames makes way more sense than 7 frames for an Fsmash

 

[Kipcom]

What about DJC Dair > Fsmash? Does that not work anymore?

It should, actually. The DJC dair infinite should also still work to some extent in 3.5, but only at higher percents now, as opposed to at any % in 3.0....So i guess it's not an infinite when I put it that way. I think 8adge confirmed it.

 

[eatthischair]

Who's a good secondary for Lucas? I play Wolf as well, but since they're pretty similar, he doesn't really cover Lucas's bad matchups

 

[D e l t a]

Who's a good secondary for Lucas? I play Wolf as well, but since they're pretty similar, he doesn't really cover Lucas's bad matchups

He kinda does IMO. Play Marth or some other disjointed character. They're both relatively quick, but the disjoints are extremely helpful and it feels amazing. Mario's fireball spam is useful if you need to camp more. Yoshi somewhat due to the extra CC and positive MU on some other chars like Marth

 

[eatthischair]

Who would you say wolf does well against that lucas doesn't? It could be just me, but I usually struggle with the same chars (shiek, d3, yoshi) no matter who i pick.
I think ill pick up Ike. not sure if I should wait for 3.6 nerfs though haha

 

[Pwii]

3.6 nerfs

If they do this I'm gonna be so mad. Lucas doesn't need nerfs.

If anything fix the weird reverse/weak hit hitbox on his magnet.

 

[D e l t a]

I was playing a little bit of the 3.6 build. The only thing changed is his new special taunt. There may be minute changes I'm unaware of.

 

[eatthischair]

If they do this I'm gonna be so mad. Lucas doesn't need nerfs.

If anything fix the weird reverse/weak hit hitbox on his magnet.

Sorry I was referring to Ike, because of everyone is (m2k) complaining about him. Lucas is definitely extremely well balanced in this version.