Lucas General Discussion

[broliftic]

Hey guys, I just started playing Lucas, and I'm having a lot of trouble finding times to use Shine when comboing. It kills almost all my aerial momentum and the range isn't enough that I usually end up juggling with fair instead, and on top of that I feel like the startup time, while low, isn't worth it. Do you have any suggestions for fixing this and/or general beginning Lucas tips?

 

[MrDoubleT]

Mix up your ledge game with magnets to stall your momentum. Also, tethering is generally safer than PK Thunder as a recovery tool. Patience is key against Charizard. If he wants to space nairs against you, you could always camp with DJC PK Freezes and advance once you see an opening. Finally, correct me if im wrong, but even if he spaces his nair perfectly, im pretty sure a grab OoS would still be in range.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

got fifth at the tourney, still got a ways to go...

 

[Xcite]

It's about time we settled this long old discussion. WE all know that Lucas is the 4th space animal, but what animal exactly is he? Support your suggestion with reasoning.

 

[Lukingordex]

Humans are animals too, in case you don't know.

 

[Une]

So wtf is going on. I was playing Lucas on Delfino and I end up in the water right? When I go in the water as Lucas he starts splashing constantly and I can't jump. It didn't happen with some other characters I was playing. God that was pretty dumb.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It might have something to do with Lucas being a fast faller and PM's increased gravity? Did you test it out with Fox?

 

[Badge]

So wtf is going on. I was playing Lucas on Delfino and I end up in the water right? When I go in the water as Lucas he starts splashing constantly and I can't jump. It didn't happen with some other characters I was playing. God that was pretty dumb.

Which version of Project:M are you playing? This sounds like a bug that was fixed in 3.02:

[...]
-Jigglypuff, Ness, and Lucas no longer get stuck in the water
[...]

 

[Une]

Yeah sounds like a bug. Yeah I would fall in the water and he would splash around and I can't jump while my opponent jumps in and spikes me into the great beyond with Mewtwo. I think I went into the water later with Link and Falcon and it was normal.

I think I don't have the most recent version so I'll check that out. It was honestly kind of funny I think. Lucas is just there in the water and I'm frantically yelling at him to jump out while I mash jump and he just splashes around like he's drowning while Mewtwo gets closer and then I finally get smashed down into the deep blue beyond.

Anyway yeah I'll check out the latest version. Thanks.

 

[Darkshooter]

In seriousness though, this dude's some good entertainment!

 

[ZimZam]

Any recommendations on how to incorporate magnets into my game? I'm starting to improve with DJC into PKF but I've noticed that I'm really missing something in my game

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I wish there was a straightforward answer for this, but there really isn't. Basically what you want to do is use Magnet in a way that makes your opponent DO SOMETHING. The most obvious way is to attack shields with Magnet, with you just hold Magnet, jump and do another Magnet, or DJC into an aerial. At this point your opponent will want to do something, whether it be a roll or a jump, at which point you want to follow with a wavedash or a jump.

Besides that you can mix it up, jump at someone and use Magnet in the air to fall with it and then jump to continue pressure or use Magnet in the middle of combos to mix things up (it sets up for Bair very well) Don't get frustrated if you don't pick up on it quickly or use it all that efficiently at first, it's one of the more difficult concepts to understand with Lucas. Keep at it!

 

[Badge]

First things first: I've finished a DJC aerials video tutorial. Primarily meant for new Lucas players, but I went pretty in depth with the mechanics section and should have covered everything you may want to know on that end. I'm also looking for feedback as I intent to make similiar videos for other techniques, too, so that's another reason for you guys to watch and comment.

_______________


Now for the less important: After noticing the reduced landing lag, I've been practicing DJC land canceled PKFs (aka ground distance PKFs or Timing A from my previous post) and while they obviously are really hard to do, it's easier than I first thought. The reasons for this:

• The timing is evenly spaced: jump -> 6 frames later DJ -> 6 frames later PKF.
• The PKF timing is the latest possible in order not to rise during the PKF and the DJ timing is the earliest possible so you can still shoot a PKF without visibly rising. One one hand, this makes it possible to practice the PKF timing by itself (just DJ, wait as long as possible, then PKF without rising significantly) and on the other hand, it makes it easy to identify a mistake whenever something goes wrong: If you shoot a PKF while falling, but it's not the ground distance, your DJ was too late and if you rise while shooting, your PKF was to late. While you can't tell what happened just from this information, if you cancel the PKF before it comes out, you probably didn't PKF late enough, as...
• The DJ is pretty fast. There's two frames where you can DJ before the one you want to hit, so for one it's already difficult to hit those even sooner DJs (the right timing is the fastest I can comfortably go, but this will vary from person to person). Also, Lucas is still rising quite fast from his jump during those frames, so you'll probably be able tell whether your DJ was timed correctly just from watching the screen once you've hit the right timing a few times.

I can also say that the landing lag from normal DJC PKFs feels awfully slow once you've experienced how land canceled PKFs would feel (not that I would be able to get them consistently yet). I also feel like practicing this has significantly improved my other tech skill and at the very least I'm now much more comfortable with all kinds of DJCs PKF.
Typing this out just in case someone's looking for another tech to practice or has too much time at their hands. It's also quite fun to practice because most failed tries still are either normal DJC PKFs or land cancel, so even failing feels quite fluent (in contrast to, say, jcing your magnets too soon and then being stuck in them for an eternity).

 

[SpiderMad]

Only thing lacking is more specifics on the execution and variant styles for it, which is something probably the good Lucas players should all give a video of the method they use like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMLHdf-1R0 Your claw method is pry best for DJCs but then you either gotta switch to the claw or play in the claw

You didn't cover involvement of the Magnet alongside stuff, and DJCs of things like Zair and Specials

 

[Badge]

The reason magnet and DJC PKF weren't mentioned is that I'll cover those in their own videos. I wanted to keep things simple and only use concepts that are either character-independent Smash knowledge or had been explained in the video. Alternating Magnet and DJC Aerials will be covered in some way in the Magnet video. I totally forgot about DJC ZAir and will have to think of were to put it. It seems to be coded slightly differently (you can't release the jump button during the first 6 frames of ZAir and still get a cancel), so I can't just put a "ZAir works too!" into the description - probably will, though.

I tried to give as many tips as possible for the execution without going into preferences, but ultimately everbody will have to find out what works best for him/her. I'd probably need help to give any good tips for controller handling as I just doubleclaw myself, but if I get enough input on that side, I'll definitly try to pass it down in the tutorials on Magnets and DJC PKFs.

Edit: I've added a note about ZAir and PKF in the description that should suffice until I can point to other guides.

 

[SpiderMad]

i might make a video of my method, right now im makin this thing on crazy stuff. this is the rd, i'm replacing all the clips with better stff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcYyr6Xm8iU

I might start tas'ing in the future, there's so much I can imagine with things but I have to waste my time getting technical to do them myself. right now my computer can barely run dolphin so i have to use training room and record the screen with a cam

 

[nimigoha]

Has anyone much better than me as a novice (only played 'technically' for 6 months) tried Z jump?

I picked it up just over a month ago and see a huge improvement with all my jump techs. Spacies have become a million times easier for me, because you don't have to move your thumb between jump and B for any shine techs.

Aerials in general have become easier.

Just wondering as it's an option I never see yet the advantages it's brought me far outweigh the 2 weeks it took to get used to (after playing casual smash for ~11 years).

If you want to give it a go, don't be discouraged initially. It will feel off, you'll SD a lot, and relearning pretty much all your tech is a pain, but it's made me a lot more consistent. I hated it and was disappointed after I'd recognized the benefits, but after sticking with it it has massively paid off.

I can see it being useful for Lucas as a spacie, but even more so because of the DJC applications.

Oh also I suppose it works easier for people who currently use middle finger for R and pointer for Z. I don't move between them to jump.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Got 7th of 49 today, lost to Chu and Pink Fresh.

 

[Y-L]

Anyone know if a well spaced fair is safe on shield?

 

[PsionicSabreur]

If spaced well and timed perfectly I think a DJC/shffl/otherwise landing fair is 0 on shield, so yeah, along with the range it's quite safe even given not-so-perfect timing. Just not as amazing as magnet, of course.
The hitbox thread has data about shield advantage, if you need any more info on that. Just in case I'm mistaken of course, or if you want info on other moves.

 

[Zurangatang]

What are the basic skills with Lucas that a new player should focus on practicing?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Definitely Double Jump Cancel, it is one of the most important tools Lucas has and by getting a strong handle of it early on it will definitely help your development over time with him.

 

[Zurangatang]

Definitely Double Jump Cancel, it is one of the most important tools Lucas has and by getting a strong handle of it early on it will definitely help your development over time with him.

DJC is better than SHFFL?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

DJC is better than SHFFL?

Yup! It's especially important when it comes to jumping out of Magnet.

 

[Zurangatang]

You just need to instantly input the attack after two jumps? Do you need to l cancel with it?

 

[Y-L]

You just need to instantly input the attack after two jumps? Do you need to l cancel with it?

You want to do your first jump with y then tilt to jump for the second one so you can do both almost instantly then yes you need to l cancel.

 

[Zurangatang]

Is downthrow under a platform to upsmash when they get up on the platform a reliable combo? I managed to do it a lot at a tournament I played last week but I wasnt sure if they just werent versed in the Lucas matchup.

 

[Inserio]

I'd say it depends. If they wait and input a roll right before it would hit, you'll miss entirely, and if you do it too late during their get up, they can just shield it. Or if you do it as they're hitting the platform and they tech, it'll whiff as well.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

On the flipside, if you hold it for their tech and release correctly they can't do anything about it. It's important to remember that USmash has a pretty forgiving hitbubble and lingers for just a moment.

 

[nimigoha]

I find OU Upsmash downright ridiculous and I love it.

There's no reason for the PMBR to buff this move on a character as agile and with such combo/killing potential as Lucas. But they did!

Especially when you play with casual people and they don't DI downthrows. You can just kill them in 3 hits.

 

[DeFish]

I find OU Upsmash downright ridiculous and I love it.

Have you seen the hilarity of the DACUS yet? I audibly giggle every time I fly across the stage to kill some poor soul that thought he was safe.

 

[nimigoha]

Have you seen the hilarity of the DACUS yet? I audibly giggle every time I fly across the stage to kill some poor soul that thought he was safe.

Oh yes, as soon as I found out I could glide across half the stage charging a 42% dealing kill move with a hitbox the size of Dedede I got right on that.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Especially when you play with casual people and they don't DI downthrows. You can just kill them in 3 hits.

It's funny because even if you DO DI the DThrow Lucas can still kill with USmash. If they DI slightly so they kinda go behind you you typically need Offense Up to hit them and if they DI it fully you can typically follow up with DACUS. The latter is pretty character dependent, but it's very solid. The timing is SLIGHTLY different than an immediate DACUS since you have to turn around first, but it's only VERY slight.

Also, nothing's funnier than doing OU DACUS into a Shield.

 

[Inserio]

Also, nothing's funnier than doing OU DACUS into a Shield.

Yeah, it's a surprisingly safe option if they shield it, considering how lethal it can be. DACUS can be completely stuffed though if they just attack you while you're sliding; and you'll most likely lose your charge even if they don't get hit by anything in that case.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I take it back!

 

[nimigoha]

Also, nothing's funnier than doing OU DACUS into a Shield.

Let me hit you with this move that I either kill you with or get punished for.

JK you shielded and now I'm on the other side of the screen.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I broke my first shield with OU USmash, it was truly a glorious feeling. <3

 

[Burnsy]

Got 5th again last night. Meh.

Lucas still strikes fear in the hearts of men.

 

[Moth101]

I'm struggling to find ways to initiate shield pressure with Lucas. What are some ways you guys get next someone safely to exert pressure close up? I feel like a lot of the time if my approach wasn't successful (as in leading to combo game) I either have to reset to neutral or I get punished in some way (whether that be shield-grab, losing stage control or something else). Also what do you think about Lucas in doubles and things that make him scary there?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

With Lucas there are a couple ways to get shield pressure started. The most basic is to approach after chucking Ice from a Double Jump Cancel, you can follow the PK Freeze a good distance before it's gone, just follow a few basic rules: Don't approach the same way, mix up using PK Freeze again, running up too them, and shorthopping, likewise switch up what you do, that is to say, don't always do Fair after following it (This is assuming they don't get hit/shield it) Once you start to get closer more options are available TO you.

From closer range DJC Fair and Short Hop/Running Magnet are excellent, safe ways to get pressure started. For example, if you jump at someone and start magnet and they try to jump to avoid your attack, you can jump after them and choose the correct move to deal with their option. If you actually touch their shield with your Magnet then you can get shield pressure going. With Fair (and other aerials if you use them correctly) it's all a matter of making sure you've got your DJCs down and your spacing correct. Another important element of doing this is, if you ARE hitting their shield with an aerials it's important that you select an aerial that will let you end up BEHIND someone's shield. Once you're in someone's face, if they're ALREADY holding their shield up, it's best to go for Magnet pressure as it's your safest bet.

As far as Doubles go, I haven't played him a whole lot, but he's probably got some nice things going for him. Obviously being able to heal off a partner's projectile/energy based moves would useful, he has fast and weak moves that could be used to save partners (Uair, Magnet, Sourspot Fair), and good followup moves in Bair and any of his OU Smash attacks. I'd take this advice with a grain of salt and/or wait for better, but it'd be worth giving a shot hitting up the lab and testing some stuff out. It's just what comes to mind immediately for me.