Lucas death-chain grab list. (RE-tested! Much better than we first thought!)

[NESSBOUNDER]

Ok, so I decided to test this death-grab on Ness and Lucas for each character, just so we know the actual scope of the situation.

EDIT: It turns out my data was incorrect. I have updated this list with more precise information that factors DI.

Any character who is marked with a "*" means that they were previously thought to be an infinite.

I did these tests in a slow brawl with each character, using two controllers. I would first have the opponent grab Ness/Lucas and pummel, then I would hold sheild and away from the opponent as Ness/Lucas with my left index finger and thumb, and control the other character with my right index finger (for z) and left hand's pinkie (for the control stick).

If Ness/Lucas had time to put up any part of their shield, it means that they are able to spot-dodge an incoming grab or attack. I also immediately jammed down on the control stick to get a spot dodge at the same time the grab would connect.

Keep in mind that for a character who can't infinite grab, the chain grab actually does very little damage and progresses across the stage rather quickly for most of them. On most tournament-legal stages, you will eventually fall off the edge. If you break out of each grab as fast as you can, you will take the minimum amount of damage. It's still bad, but it's still something.

So I'll list this in order of character then: This is the worst that each character can do to you after you break out of their grab.

All tests were performed on LUCAS, by the way. It has been proven that Lucas can DI slightly more than Ness, meaning that in general he's not quite as weak to grabs and can only truly be infinited by himself, and semi-infinited (as in not an infinite, but just as bad as one) by Marth and Bowser.

MARIO: Ftilt
Not much to see here. An Ftilt to the face isn't so bad at all, especially coming from Mario. His Fsmash and Dsmash are too slow and don't reach far enough to hit you.
Verdict: safe

*DK: previously thought to be an infinite. Now can hit with down tilt or Ftilt
Apparently, DI can escape his cargo hold.
Verdict: safe

Link/Toon Link: down smash
Link and Toon Link's grabs are too slow for them to get you again before you can spot dodge. The best they can do is hit with a down smash. It's a strong KO move, so it's still not very nice, but you won't be losing matches solely because of this.
Verdict: safe

Samus: dtilt
Same deal as the Links, except with down tilt instead. It's a hefty attack for Samus, but once again, not too bad either.
Verdict: safe

Zero Suit Samus: ftilt
Not bad at all, really
Verdioct: safe

Kirby/Jigglypuff: nothing
You slide very far away from Kirby and Jigglypuff for some reason. They can't run and grab you again fast enough to get a chain grab going either, and can't reach you with any attacks.
Verdict: safe

Fox: running attack
Originally, I thought Fox could hit with a running attack after the break out, but with DI, it turns out he actually can't reach you with any attack! Any attempts of his to do a running up smash can be thwarted by Lucas's crazy fast jab!
Verdict: safe!

Pikachu: running grab, ftilt
Unlike Fox, Pikachu can still grab you if you DI. However, he has no good KO moves to follow up the chain grab, and he slides very far between each grab.
Verdict: safe

*Marth: semi-infinite
You can DI out of his grabbing range ever so slightly, but he only needs to take a step to catch you again. Can lead into various good KO moves. May as well be an infinite.
Verdict: hopeless

Game & Watch: oil panic
How ironic...
Verdict: safe

Luigi: Ftilt
Lucky his Fsmash is too slow to combo from a break.
Verdict: safe

Diddy: running grab, dtilt
same boat as Pikachu, but doesn't slide as far.
Verdict: safe

Zelda: jump break
For some reason, it's easy to jump break Zelda's grab. However, if you don't jump break, she can follow up with an Ftilt, which isn't TOO deadly.
Verdict: safe

Shiek: running grab, down smash
Good thing she can't KO too well with her down smash...
Verdict: risky

Pit: nothing
whoot! If you DI, Pit can't reach you with his Fsmash. He can't grab you either. He can't even get you with Angel Loop.
Verdict: safe

Metaknight: running grab, ftilt(first hit)
With DI, Meat Knight can at the very most get the first hit of his Fair in. You'll be too far out to get hit by the rest of the strikes. ^_^ He slides VERY far during the chain grab, so you'll take minimal damage no matter what.
Verdict: safe

Falco: running up smash (or hit cancel)
Not so bad really.
Verdict: safe

*Charizard: Running grab
false alarm. Lucas can DI out of the standing grab, but not Ness unfortunately. Charizard can still running grab you though, but he can't follow it up with anything.
Verdict: safe

*Squirtle: running grab, ftilt, waterfall
Squirtle's running grab slides a lot, and Ftilt is really wimpy, so it's OK! Waterfall can be DI'd out of at this range too.
Verdict: safe

*Ivysaur: Ftilt
You can DI away from this previously-thought infinite standing grab. From there on, Ivysaur has very few options.
Verdict: safe

Ike: AAA combo
Not that bad at all.
Verdict: safe

*Snake: Running grab, Ftilt
Hardly has any slide on his grab. Leads into Ftilt when he's done with you. Still pretty bad, but not an infinite at least.
Verdict: unsafe

Peach: running grab, Ftilt
Same kind of deal as Diddy Kong. Bearable. At least it's not a magic KO move.
Verdict: safe

Yoshi: jump break
Yoshi's grab always has a jump break out. Probably one of the safest characters to fight as Ness/Lucas. Too bad he's considered low tier and nobody plays him. -_-
Verdict: safe

Ganon: jump break
I may need to test this more, but it seems quite easy to jump break out of Ganon's grab. For now, I'll say this is safe. None of his moves are fast enough to catch you anyway.
Verdict: safe

Ice Climbers: FFFFFFFFF!
FFFFFFFF!
Verdict: FFFFFPFFF!

Dedede: nothing (possibly down tilt)
I was very surprised by this too. For some reason, Dedede's grab DOESN'T reach Ness after he breaks out of the hold...and a running grab is too slow. It's strange, but try as I might, I just couldn't get Dedede to grab Ness during the helpless animation.
Verdict: safe (however, you still have his other chain grab to contend with).

Wolf: nothing
previously thought to be down smash, it misses if you DI out. HA.
Verdict: safe

Lucario: Ftilt
I wouldn't expect any less from the honorable Lucario. Always ready to fight fair and square, for the sake of a good match.
Verdict: safe

Ness: running grab, running up smash
Slides a lot.
Verdict: safe

Sonic: running grab, ftilt
Sonic's running grab has hardly any slide at all, making this almost an infinite. Either way, you'll take a lot of damage before he reaches the edge.
Verdict: risky

Bowser: semi-infinite (running grab), ftilt
Look, I know Ulevo tested this, but there's no way I'm wrong this time after testing WITH DI. This is the next step down from an infinite. Bowser has next to zero slide time on his running grab, meaning that by the time he reaches across the stage, you'll be on enough damage for him to KO you with his Bowsah Paunch. The only saving grace is that for some reason it's a lot easier to jump break out of his grab than many other characters.
Verdict: unsafe

*Wario: running grab
Wario's previously thought infinite can be avoided with DI. His running grab has low slide time, and he can't combo into anything from it.
Verdict: safe

Olimar: Fsmash, standing grab if his previous grab was a running grab.
Olimar's weird in that he can grab you twice if his first grab was a running grab. He can't chain grab you, luckily enough, but he can hit you with his Fsmash, which hurts like heck. Either way, Olimar is excellent at grabbing, so this will be a troublesome match up no matter how you view it.
Verdict: risky

ROB: running grab, Ftilt, Dtilt
He seems to slide a fair bit on his running grab, but not as much as Pikachu. His follow-ups aren't too bad either. Dtilt can trip you though.
Verdict: safe

Falcon: Dtilt
The good Captain is too manly to use cheese tactics like this.
Verdict: safe

Lucas: infinite
This is STILL an infinite. I tested with DI this time, and still couldn't escape it. Not once did Lucas have to run or move from his initial location, meaning that Lucas dittoes are still going to be about who gets the first grab, and that Lucas will always dominate Ness.
Verdict: hopeless.

Not quite as bad as we originally thought, thank goodness.

By the way, I thought I'd add that the timing to get a perfect running grab for most of the characters who can chain throw this way is actually VERY strict. If you press Z even just a fraction of a second too late after starting the dash, you'll give Ness or Lucas a chance to spot dodge. NO ROLLING. Spot dodge is the fastest form of evasion available for them in this situation. If you really want to try it, Lucas can use his 1-frame jab, but a grab will always beat that if they land on the same frame.

 

[Levitas]

Careful, this data isn't good for applying to lucas. First of all, you didn't DI the slide (which is relavent to the marth grab). Secondly, even if you had, you HAVE to do this with Lucas, because he can slide farther away. Third, the slide distance does change slightly with respect to damage. Lucas can escape the marth grab range with DI after 20%, but not before.

In other words, this needs more testing before it can be applied to lucas.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Right. I guess that means that Lucas is all around a safer match up against most characters than Ness. I'll go back and test it further with Lucas this time. And yes, for a lot of these I wasn't DI-ing away.

Still, Marth can always do a running grab if you DI away from him.

 

[Levitas]

Fair enough. Thanks for the testing

 

[Mainland]

Thanks for all your work.

 

[Aggression]

PSYCO-KINETIC PHLLLASSSSHHHhH

rofl ness has enough advantages

1. insane grabs (Bthrow kills nearly everyone past 120%)
2. Fair is one of the best approaches
3. half his attacks are fast kill moves
4. pk fire is a large character destroyer from 0-80% in a few seconds(rob, ddd, snake, bowser, dk)
5. yoyos mess with people
6. absorption shield
7. pk thunder is a pain sometimes and creates mind games plus pkt2 is gimpable, but if u miss the gimp you get hit and die past 60%
8. hes got a spike that counts too i guess
9. pk flash, FFA, nuff said

"Yoshi: jump break
Yoshi's grab always has a jump break out. Probably one of the safest characters to fight as Ness/Lucas. Too bad he's considered low tier and nobody plays him. -_-
Verdict: safe"

umm in case you dont know he's actually considered the top of mid tier by lots of people including me who kicks the crap out of rob/pit mainers

so i wouldnt be bashing the raptor he got 2nd place in the last big tourney, so yeah

no one is bad enough in this game for low tier, same with god tier

with infinite air/ground dodging i cant see how ANY character is bad
wins are far more determined by who can dodge the best
however some do stand out like snake that camping piece of %@&#!!!!!1
seriously HES ONLY GOOD BECAUSE HES AN UBER CAMPER

we have maybe 8 high tiers and the rest are mid? (ganon is low... hes too slow for 1on1 but FFAs... lets not even go there)

 

[Galeon]

Depressing... I hope you find more inspiring results when you test Lucas with DI.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I, too, hold out hope for Lucas.

*prays*

 

[Azuro]

Man, well this blows. I may not main Lucas/Ness...hell I don't even use them. But this isn't exactly good. They're otherwise decent characters.

 

[Yuna]

What? Broken combos/chaingrabs in Brawl? Inconceivable!

 

[Galeon]

now is so not the time for that ish, yuna.

we're in a time of mourning here at the Lucas boards.

 

[Azuro]

What? Broken combos/chaingrabs in Brawl? Inconceivable!

I'm sorry, but that made me lol a bit.

 

[Tyr_03]

test with Lucas and DI to be sure. If Snake, MK and Marth can do this to Lucas than it's 100% hopeless.

 

[Yuna]

Let's not forget Snake's other chaingrab. Even if you somehow manage to DI it so Snake has to dashgrab or whatnot you, once he gets you at the edge, all he needs to do is downthrow and then rinse and repeat (if it does indeed work).

Weep, Lucases. Not only did you get the worst of tether recoveries, you also got this.

 

[Tristan_win]

heh, about my problems fighting Ness and Lucas

Thanks for the info I'll make sure I put it to good use.

 

[BFG9]

Depressing as this be, I am not going to quit my lucas. The idea is not to get grabbed and keep a good distance..that always been my thing . as for pikachu's grab? just DI upwards followed by a jump. Other than that, let's not lose hope here, lucas still awesome n' stuff :D

 

[∫unk]

Lucas can jump out of grab...

 

[Jeremy Smith]

is there a video of this somewhere because i dont totally get it. are you supposed to grab and then only attack them but not throw?

 

[O Rly?]

Usually I play the role of pessimist and go "OMG OHNOES THE END IS NEAR" but I really don't have to apply it in this case, since in my eyes, the psychic duo have been more keep-away than anything.

I mean, a good chaingrab will ruin them, but so will the usual DDDDT to a lot of other characters, and I don't see that being discussed for banning.

At least not by people who matter.

Right?

Right?

 

[Tyr_03]

The difference is that Dedede's chaingrab is not infinite for most characters. It's usually escapable when you reach the edge of the stage with a few exceptions. The other difference is that Dedede is one character that can do this to other characters whereas the Ness/Lucas chaingrab is possible with many characters and is not even difficult to do. This means that the chaingrabber has a low chance of error.

Because of Brawl's major buff for the defensive player, avoiding grabs entirely is almost completely implausible against a decent player. It will probably not be banned. It just means that Lucas and Ness have pretty much lost their chance at being competitive as any noob can grab you with Marth and get a free forward smash at the very least every single time if not far worse. Escaping it with a jump release is near impossible and would rely mainly on luck as far as I can tell.

 

[hazard99]

is there a video of this somewhere because i dont totally get it. are you supposed to grab and then only attack them but not throw?

I'd like to see this in action too

 

[BFG9]

Agree, we need videos <=P.

 

[Levitas]

There are NO characters to my knowledge that can infinite lucas with this. All require a Dash grab, with a possibility of a couple exceptions. This means they get you to the edge.

The data here isn't final, wait for the tests with Lucas (and with Lucas DIing the break)

Yuna, Lucas's recovery is the best of those with tethers by far, due to the fact that he has other options that are amazing themselves.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

There are NO characters to my knowledge that can infinite lucas with this. All require a Dash grab, with a possibility of a couple exceptions. This means they get you to the edge.

The data here isn't final, wait for the tests with Lucas (and with Lucas DIing the break)

Yuna, Lucas's recovery is the best of those with tethers by far, due to the fact that he has other options that are amazing themselves.

It doesn't matter. Even with a dash grab, a Marth can get Lucas within KOing range due to the low slide on his running grab, and then follow with a down smash to KO. It may not be a true infinite, but it's still a free KO.

And DI doesn't do much. I tested it again and it makes only a slight bit of difference in Marth's case, moving Lucas JUST out of reach of a standing grab (Marth literally brushes his face with his fingers.) There's no way you could avoid a running grab, or even a step-grab with DI alone.

 

[Levitas]

The dash grab takes more frames, though. At the very least, this introduces a margin of error into the marth's game, making it harder to do this.

But yeah, it's bad policy to count on the other guy to suck.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The dash grab takes more frames, though. At the very least, this introduces a margin of error into the marth's game, making it harder to do this.

But yeah, it's bad policy to count on the other guy to suck.

This is true.

Having said that, the margin for error is quite small. But with Brawl's buffering system, it's easier than it should be. Still, if you break out just as they're still hitting Z, there's chance that they may put up their shield by accident, which gives you time to escape. That's the best hope there is, unfortunately.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, Lucas's recovery is the best of those with tethers by far, due to the fact that he has other options that are amazing themselves.

I never said his recovery sucks. I said his tether sucks.

 

[Yuna]

This is true.

Having said that, the margin for error is quite small. But with Brawl's buffering system, it's easier than it should be. Still, if you break out just as they're still hitting Z, there's chance that they may put up their shield by accident, which gives you time to escape. That's the best hope there is, unfortunately.

A good player would learn how long they can hold onto someone and only hit Z for as many times as it's safe and then wait for the grab release.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

A good player would learn how long they can hold onto someone and only hit Z for as many times as it's safe and then wait for the grab release.

If they stop hitting Z, it allows you to jump break.

As long as Ness isn't in a state of hit-stun from a grab attack, a jump break is possible, so in order to force a frontal break, they pretty much have to keep hitting repeatedly.

 

[Trozz]

Competitive play on a game without patches keeps diluting.

 

[TechnoMonster]

I just did some testing with DI, and Lucas can't break out of Marth's grab by spot-dodging, even with DI, however, simply holding away seemed to make the grab just miss every time which is an interesting note.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Marth can do a dash grab and continue it. Makes it technically not infinite but ends with a forward smash so you're probably dead anyway.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Yeah, but you can mash like crazy, and only take like 5% damage per, so it's not so bad.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Yeah, but you can mash like crazy, and only take like 5% damage per, so it's not so bad.

Doesn't matter. It's still a free Fsmash PLUS extra damage.

 

[R!S3]

What? Broken combos/chaingrabs in Brawl? Inconceivable!

hahahahaha

i love it

 

[Tyr_03]

We should just spam the tactical board with countless ban requests for this idiotic CG.

 

[metalmonstar]

For some reason when I tested it with Ivysaur, the Ness and Lucas almost always got out. It just seems to me that Ivysaur jabs too slow to keep them in constant stun.

Also when I did Lucas versus Ness there seem to be this small window in which Ness could act before I could grab him again. I want to training to try it on 1/4 speed and it seems Ness is able to recover from the break out. However when I set him to attack, jump, or dodge it didn't seem like he could get out even if he could act. The CPU tried Rolling, the roll animation would start just as I grabbed him, He tried walking a way a couple of times. Movement started up but he got nowhere before being grabbed again. I don't know if this means that Lucas or Ness can escape being regrabbed by Lucas or not.

It seems though that most aren't truly infinite. Marth does about 80 damage using this grab across the stage and Charizard does about the same. So that should make Earthbound players feel a little bit better.

 

[Trozz]

Marth can connect his CG in to a f-smash too easily for me to feel any better.

 

[Levitas]

really, this is going to hurt maybe 3-4 matchups for lucas. Marth is the only one that gains that much, and he's the only one that can realistically chaingrab lucas. Ness is frowndged, though.

Also, Nessbounder's data is flawed at this point. It can also not be used for Lucas at all. Lucas cannot chaingrab himself, for example.

 

[AnubisGX]

Phew. This is making me feel better. The fact that one of my greater opponents uses marth doesn't make me feel better.