Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[Darkgun]

As a counterpoint, I would like to note that Lucario has only existed since 2.1, and only really been stable since 2.6b, and due to this, is vastly unexplored. We know Lucario's got a crazy punish game, has trouble in neutral, and has hard matchups with characters that have and use solid zoning options, and that is primarily due to the nature of his design that this is known. Fox is good because, as you said, all of his options are good, which is why we consider his Neutral to be one of the best in the game. But there has been an unimaginable amount of time put into learning not only what Fox's moves can do, but also when an when not to use them. His neutral is the best because we know how and what options to use.

Lucario, on the other hand, has... maybe a year of relevant metagame development, and while there have been quite a few noteworthy players that have picked him up for a short while to try him out or have some fun, in my opinion there is not solid representation for the Steel-Fighting type at this time, which means that the folks who know the game exceedingly well, those that could significantly accelerate the learning of the character's intricacies, are... well, not.

At this time, I would say that Lucario is seated pretty firmly in the middle of... well, pick a tier list (since right now all of that is kind of silly due to lack of data). There is potential for him to improve, but it will take quite a bit of time and effort.

The thing is Lucario can 0-death Fox, he's a fantastic weight to combo (just gotta watch out for CC Shine) and you can Uthrow chain him. It's all about who gets in on who first, which is where Fox has a big advantage.

To my knowledge, Uthrow chains only work on poor DI. If a FF DIs correctly, they will be forced to tech. If you are looking for chain throws, you will have to use tech chases. Also, fun Lucario combo for a spacie: at 0% uthrow(poor/noDI)>usmash(3rd)>aFP>dair(1st)>aFP>tech chase, which should push his damage to the point that they will tumble from utilt (which is important for combo safety).

 

[Risky]

To my knowledge, Uthrow chains only work on poor DI. If a FF DIs correctly, they will be forced to tech. If you are looking for chain throws, you will have to use tech chases. Also, fun Lucario combo for a spacie: at 0% uthrow(poor/noDI)>usmash(3rd)>aFP>dair(1st)>aFP>tech chase, which should push his damage to the point that they will tumble from utilt (which is important for combo safety).

At 0% Try uthrow to ASC, as it will hit him guaranteed before he hits the ground and you can follow up afterwards. If you get a usmash on a spacie, ASC after the first hit and you can get a grab if you do it correctly (if you mess the input up you usually get a large aura sphere which hits anyway, cutely enough). This depends on Usmash spacing as there are a couple nuances to the attack and how to DI it based on where Lucario is when he uses it. It's very very good against spacies though, and should be integral to comboing them.

 

[nimigoha]

Usmash to AFP can be tough to DI out of if you're a FF. Easy kill if you're at the edge and you Charge it.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

So trying to spam/camp a little with AS's doesnt really feel comfortable or safe for me, wish it did! I was just trying it against a roy but it was somewhat punishable, but not really worth it. I think b revearsing into a AS is a good tool to help an approach though.

Also If anyone wants to help develop a rough Lucario MU's then check out the link below. This has been going on for a week or two and it would be great if you could just fill out any character MU's you know at all and Ill post the results shortly. Thanks!

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/9PRZVMD

 

[Risky]

So trying to spam/camp a little with AS's doesnt really feel comfortable or safe for me, wish it did! I was just trying it against a roy but it was somewhat punishable, but not really worth it. I think b revearsing into a AS is a good tool to help an approach though.

I use it a lot in my neutral, and frequently mix it up by shorthopping and canceling the charge if I see them coming towards me into a waveland, aerial, DT, whatever is appropriate in the situation. Or I just throw it out and it stuffs their jump or forces them to shield. Many characters can clank and ignore it, while also hitting you with an aerial or something else (Roy is a perfect example). In cases like these use your best judgment

 

[nimigoha]

I'm finding in the 'heat of battle' I resort to a lot of DA>Utilt.

What should I be looking for after? Mainly play against Lucas, Mario, and Ness.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

In my experience you playing against Lucas is much different then mario or ness. For Lucas you can get some pretty long combos, a typical thing to do after utilit is up smash then cancel that into something, like a fair then up b to them canceled into a nair. This usually sends them off stage with solid damage and if done correctly can lead to a KO. I usually miss something in there though. Something I love to do against lucas is chain grab after utilt. You can easily grab him before he can do anything at low percents and he is pretty much the best weight for chains, make sure to mix it up though to prevent them from knowing which way to DI, down throw and up throw are the best but you can also through in a fthrow at low percents and pick them back up if they fail to attack quick enough, easier then I think every time.

For Ness and Mario I am just starting to develop some strategy for myself, it is much more of a prediction and patience game. They can each nair quick enough out of utilit, so try to read is and shield grab. Or wave dash back and smash or start the combo over or something. I havent delved to much though so if you find more combos on characters like them please post lol

 

[CyberZixx]

How do Lucario players recommend getting out of his combos? It feel nigh helpless if you are hit but there gotta be a way.

 

[bec]

How do Lucario players recommend getting out of his combos? It feel nigh helpless if you are hit but there gotta be a way.

crouch cancel at earlier percent, his anti-CC tools are somewhat weak. learn to DI/SDI better as well - combo DI is usually away from lucario if i remember right but i may be wrong. what character do you play? some characters have good tools to break his combos if you can get a quick move out (usually nair)

 

[Darkgun]

How do Lucario players recommend getting out of his combos? It feel nigh helpless if you are hit but there gotta be a way.

Using your C-Stick to buffer a roll or spot dodge OoS when under shield pressure gives some pretty solid escape options, since you can safely shield the first hit of practically every combo ever if you buffer a roll out of it. Note that it isn't impossible to cover such responses, but it is much harder to punish the roll, especially if it is used to avoid a smash. Additionally, if the Lucario is on top of his game,shielding fsmash in grab range will lead to (what I believe to be... I haven't exactly got to check yet) an inescapable FP, but the timing is pretty strict, so still buffering a roll will still work as the safest option.

If you're wondering about how to not get swept away by the crazy combos once you've been hit, his upwards knockback moves are predominantly DI'd left or right, and his forward comboing hits (so... practically every attack, spare utilt, uair, usmash) are DI'd down and away, with intent to either CC>punish or enter shield. If I am not mistaken, his moves are also subject to a bit more SDI than normal, so that's an option to help. Additionally, Lucario has a few DI mixups (Nair, Bair, Fsmash, Dsmash, Dair) that are killing moves, which can be DI'd using traditional survival DI.

 

[CyberZixx]

Thanks for the tips. I find this character hard to fight as his counter play is so unique and that gets in my head. I suppose I don't gotta respect his sideb grab that hard and can actually do things from shield and CC.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

http://projectmgame.com/en/characters/lucario
So I was reading through the Lucario description for fun and found that it hasnt been updated for the new update. I came right here after I noticed that it said his aura meter resets to 0 when he dies, but its actually reset to 1 charge. They might be some other things wrong there too but I'm gonna go practice instead of delving deeper

 

[Giygacoal]

They might be some other things wrong there too but I'm gonna go practice instead of delving deeper

It has always said "steel/fighting" instead of "fighting/steel", but apparently I'm the only person who cares about that.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

How do you neutral game with this guy? He feels awkward to play until you actually get something going.

 

[nimigoha]

Dash Dancing is really really important for Lucario. His projectile is okay, but the amount of hitstun it gives your opponent isn't great. On one of aMSa's streams he showed some neutral game stuff. He said his favourite approach is either just Dash Attack or DT>Jab>FP (the FP is the other way from the Jab, so if you slid right, you jab right and cancel into FP left). This covers a decent amount of distance relatively quickly.

 

[Darkgun]

How do you neutral game with this guy? He feels awkward to play until you actually get something going.

There was previously a discussion of this very topic. If I recall correctly, said discussion could be summarized to "Lucario's neutral experience is pretty rough. Think C. Falcon movement, where your super huge dash dance is replaced with DT and AS." Said differently, it is easier to play Lucario's neutral like a punish character than it is to play aggro, since most of his options aren't all that safe, he doesn't have the greatest of air control, nor the greatest of disjoint, nor any solid zoning options.

That said, in my opinion, if you can find a way to scare your opponent into shield any time you approach, things will likely go much more smoothly.

 

[Giygacoal]

How do you neutral game with this guy? He feels awkward to play until you actually get something going.

Dash-Dance camp and throw out aura spheres (the not-super aura sphere is actually at its strongest if it's released right before it finishes charging in this game). If your position is really good and you have a charge, then you might be able to approach. Other than that, yeah, Lucario's neutral game is pretty poop to our current knowledge.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

There was previously a discussion of this very topic.

A'ight, I'll make sure to give it a read, thanks for your insight and the link.

Dash-Dance camp and throw out aura spheres (the not-super aura sphere is actually at its strongest if it's released right before it finishes charging in this game). If your position is really good and you have a charge, then you might be able to approach. Other than that, yeah, Lucario's neutral game is pretty poop to our current knowledge.

Is it the strongest damage-wise, knockback-wise or both? I'm assuming knockback-wise.

 

[Giygacoal]

Is it the strongest damage-wise, knockback-wise or both? I'm assuming knockback-wise.

I'm not 100% sure, but it's probably both.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I found out yesterday that I struggle in the Zelda MU and confirmed that CF MU is really inconsistent for me, sometimes I feel like its in his favor a lot and get salty. Then other times I dont, but I think thats just when Im playing really well. What do you guys think about Zelda? CF?

 

[BFlake]

I found out yesterday that I struggle in the Zelda MU and confirmed that CF MU is really inconsistent for me, sometimes I feel like its in his favor a lot and get salty. Then other times I dont, but I think thats just when Im playing really well. What do you guys think about Zelda? CF?

I feel Lucario is a punish character now more than ever and you have to play safe and use counter approaches to get into your combos so in the zelda MU she can be way safer and force you to do the approaching and good luck getting in without a surprise cause her range and nature of her hitboxes just annihilate lucario's options (sex kick, nair, utilt, ftilt, fsmash) not to mention nayru's which will reflect AS' and is super safe unless you bait it from them. Definitely zelda's favor. As for CF I play this MU almost ritualistically and I would say it's at most 53-47 in lucario's favor cause once falcon starts something on you you're gonna eat a lot of % and there are many opportunities for him to d/uthrow > knee kill you but you can also combo the hell out of him as he falls fast but your main goal is to get him off stage with fair, dair, fmash, or FP(grab or no grab) then master edge guarding him which honestly is easy compared to any other character.

 

[Giygacoal]

Zelda is definitely a tough one because of both her moves and her anti-lucario combo floatiness.

I'm pretty bad at the Falcon MU because I couldn't figure out what to do about that dash dance, but I was/am, probably just a noob at it, especially at the time. You can get consistent combos thanks to Falcon's physics, though.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Hey, can some of you knowledgeable Lucario mains come on over and help us with this stage counterpick thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-counterpick-chart.353842/#post-16681821

We're trying to compile a list of what stages are good/bad for different characters.

 

[Tomo009]

Does anyone know exactly how the aura meter works?

I was trying to do some testing on how much aura each move builds, but I'm getting inconsistent results for some moves, I think they just have strange values which are throwing me off.

14 single jabs and 3 down or forward smashes seem to consistently build exactly 1 aura stock but other moves are giving me trouble.

 

[bec]

last i heard it was 1.2 points of aura for every 1% damage done on contact with anything but grabs/pummels (i think including aura sphere itself) and then .6 points of charge for every "1%" damage done on shield.

 

[Tomo009]

last i heard it was 1.2 points of aura for every 1% damage done on contact with anything but grabs/pummels (i think including aura sphere itself) and then .6 points of charge for every "1%" damage done on shield.

Well that would explain it, only seems to be A moves though, B moves also don't build any.

 

[bec]

it's appeared that i got aura from both force palm and extreme speed hits but i could be wrong, there is sometimes a delay between acquiring the charge and it showing up on his paws

 

[BFlake]

I know at least Extreme Speed does build meter cause I have on some occasions started a combo in which I did not have glowing hands before the ES but once I got a couple hits in I could cancel it on reflex once a couple the ES hits connected.

 

[Tomo009]

Maybe it is a training mode bug? I did both extreme speed and force palm 10x each and still it took 14 jabs to gain a stock.

EDIT: OK extreme speed does build meter, force palm doesn't

 

[Giygacoal]

Why are Shiny Lucario's eyes blue?

 

[GunBlaze]

Maybe it is a training mode bug? I did both extreme speed and force palm 10x each and still it took 14 jabs to gain a stock.

EDIT: OK extreme speed does build meter, force palm doesn't

What?!

 

[batistabus]

 

[Risky]

I will be using this for many years to comes.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Any other lucario players in washington?

 

[nimigoha]

I dunno if you guys have watched the videos yet or noticed, but in this aMSa match at ROF he uses the wall jump B revers ASC here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=k3sMdAketKU#t=474

It's one thing to use a technique in training, but to invent (?) something like this and use it in tournament without messing it up is pretty great.

 

[BFlake]

aMSa is such a beast. I practiced that wall jump myself and could only get up and past the training room wall like 3 times workin at it for hours. Thanks for calling my attention to more aMSa Lucario nimigoha!

 

[Zoa]

Just some theorycrafting after my latest play against other players here in central FL:

• Luc has a lot of single hit attacks with sweetspots in his combo game. What if that was expanded and changed upon some?

• For instance, make fair have a single hitbox at the outset that consists of the 11% hitbox sourspot in the current version. Would make fair combo into itself better outside OHC and be a better lead into OHC specials.

• Ftilt reverted to Brawl mechanics. It had a start up of 12 frames that produced two hitboxes right after another. The second lingering hitbox could let OHC flow better and produce a safer option for a grounded attack on shield.

• What if Usmash had only three hits instead of five so DI or SDI would be harder? Or if the last hit had a hitbox with a better horizontal hitbox so it could hit easier?

What do you guys think? What are some theorycrafting ideas you've had?

 

[bec]

not a lot that i havent posted in my 4.0 lucario thread but

have the hitbox on fair out for longer. thats all i want changed about it tbh. the hitbox is gone before his leg drops. i kind of feel like a sex-kick hitbox duration could help his neutral game.

maybe have nair be one long hitbox that starts with the current first hit power and diminishes until the attack is finished. could also help approach a bit.

.....give him better air speed? that one kind of speaks for itself

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Luca would be gdlk if he had a sex kick instead of Tatsu.

Better air speed might be too much, I feel like his current speed suits him well.

 

[Risky]

The fact that he can cancel at any point when it hits makes a sex kick seem a little overpowered.