Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[straydoggywog]

Calling them combo strings was probably unwise as that implies a guarantee. What I mean is just a list of Lucario's potential strings. With such a list we could begin theory crafting specific scenarios in which they are applicable, which ones are safer, more guaranteed than others.

For example,

DA>f-tilt>U-Smash.

DA>f-tilt>D-Smash

DA>f-tilt>F-Smash

Now that we have this list we can rank them in terms risk reward and see which one works best in the most situations.

Hell since I've already started I might as well make a list myself and throw them at you all to discuss the benefits and detriments of each.

TO THE LAB!

Edit: Potential resources that could help with this project would be appreciated.

 

[Darkgun]

Well, there's this thread here... and you might find the video thread useful.... I'm not quite sure what else you'd use from around here....

I suppose I'm not quite sure just how you plan on structuring this, but I am most certainly interested.

 

[Alderwin]

I didn't want to make a post for this by itself because odds are it's already been discovered or someone would be like "It's DI'able blah blah, not consistent for every character, not guranteed blah blah" you get the jist.
So I was just playing around while practicing getting my ASC after my fair. Then I just tried to go for aFP and it linked together surprisingly well. I tested it out on a couple of people just the see the %'s that would//would not work for different people and different weights etc etc and found that it is somewhat consistent, granted you are successfully following their DI. But if this has already been found and proven false, that's cool too I just felt cool cause I figured it could be a nice gimp tactic

 

[#HBC | Joker]

that used to be something of a BnB. It's a lot harder to land now, but it can work, and is pretty good when it does. It's certainly known.

 

[bec]

sadly any sort of proper DI shuts fair > aFP down 99% of the time :'( you have to hit with the closest hit/sourspot iirc to make it work pretty much

 

[Alderwin]

Yeah I figured those things, it's a little difficult to practice it with DI when you're just by yourself

 

[Zoa]

Go for dair first hit into aFP. I'm not too sure on the frame data, but I believe it's a guaranteed set up. Dair first hit pops up, can't be CC-ed by anyone except Bowser (armor), and has no knockback scaling to my knowledge. It's also a good set up for a sweetspotted AB from a read. That can't be CC-ed either except for Bowser (armor again).

 

[Darkgun]

fair>aFP is well... I want to call it shenanigan...y, honestly, but it is a heck of a finisher if you catch an opponent trying to use their double jump to come back to the stage. I've been working on ways to link the moves consistently (read as: make it harder for my opponent to successfully DI down+away the fair), but unfortunately there is no way it will ever be an inescapable setup. Heck, I think no DI is safe as well (though with no DI, Lucario can manage a followup).

Also, to my knowledge you can CC dair(1st) (since it has no base knockback), however I think there is no proper window for a punish if you allow the aerial to finish, where there is a small one, should you cancel into a form of FP.

 

[Kankato]

New Lucario Main here. I'm having a lot of trouble landing the first hit in neutral. What are some effective ways to approach the neutral game as Lucario?

 

[nimigoha]

New Lucario Main here. I'm having a lot of trouble landing the first hit in neutral. What are some effective ways to approach the neutral game as Lucario?

DD like crazy.

DD>SH>instant DT>DT cancel can catch people off guard and it's very safe.

Chuck some AS before charging in with Dash Attack.

 

[Zoa]

Ugh. I can't get used to DD. It's a foreign concept to me. Any tips or general advice? Last game I played was Brawl before this a few years ago, so there was no need to really DD thanks to tripping. I really gotta up my neutral game.

 

[Giygacoal]

Ugh. I can't get used to DD. It's a foreign concept to me. Any tips or general advice? Last game I played was Brawl before this a few years ago, so there was no need to really DD thanks to tripping. I really gotta up my neutral game.

The basic idea is you can use DD to trick your opponent or change your direction very quickly. For example, you can dash away from your opponent to dodge an attack, and then effectively punish by quickly dashing back to the opponent while he/she is in endlag and then attacking. It's more useful than a roll (which is too long/laggy to do anything offensive with) yet less risky than a spot dodge in that regard.

Don't feel bad if you don't get solid neutral instantly because Lucario has particularly poor neutral compared to many other characters. At least he has a nice dashdance.

 

[Zoa]

The basic idea is you can use DD to trick your opponent or change your direction very quickly. For example, you can dash away from your opponent to dodge an attack, and then effectively punish by quickly dashing back to the opponent while he/she is in endlag and then attacking. It's more useful than a roll (which is too long/laggy to do anything offensive with) yet less risky than a spot dodge in that regard.

Don't feel bad if you don't get solid neutral instantly because Lucario has particularly poor neutral compared to many other characters. At least he has a nice dashdance.

Is this out of the initial dash length? What are my general options out of DD?

 

[bec]

DT is great but it isn't a get in for free card. if you become at all predictable with it your opponent will learn to just stick out a hitbox and catch you either on the startup before intangibility (12 frames of vulnerability) or as your intangibility ends. DDing, run up dtilt, SH aura spheres (to some extent) are decent approaches to neutral. DA rocks if it hits but it has a lot of lag if you miss and is liable to get you punished if you're not careful

SH/shffl fairs are pretty good at just sticking out a hitbox to keep your opponent at bay and if you hit you can ASC it or cancel into DT. also not the easiest move to punish and will keep you opponent within reach if you do hit.

 

[Darkgun]

Global options out of DD are: DA, jump (and thus jump cancel options), pivot smashes, usmash, side/up special, grab. Actually useful options for Lucario out of a dash dance are... well, usually straight up evading an attack with the dash backwards and then punishing with the dash forwards (likely with either DA or a JCgrab). Additionally, it is fairly easy to dash just beyond the dash startup animation, crouch out of dash and attempt to connect with sweetspot dtilt. Thanks to the sheer potential of Lucario's combos, I'm of the mind to believe that it is usually a good idea to apply positional pressure by DDing just outside of an opponent's threatened space, but it feels way unsafe.

 

[KhanYe]

Is there anyone in the lab who can tell me what moves Lucario has that can knock Squirtle out of Withdraw? I've been playing my Tink against that matchup, but if I can get some more options with Lucario, it'd really help me.

 

[bec]

if withdraw is side b (not too familiar with squirt's moveset terms) then spaced dtilt should knock him out immediately i believe, and also dair are pretty good for getting him up to the percent where anything will knock him out. you can dair right over his little shell

 

[Kankato]

Questions for the scientists!

How fast is the optimal ASC?
How many frames are between ftilt -> force palm & how many frames of blockstun does ftilt cause?
If ftilt -> palm is not guarenteed, do you think Lucario could condition opponents into roll buffers using strings like jab/DA -> tilt -> palm, then once they start rolling punish them with jab/DA -> ASC -> punish?
Solid followups on grounded palm at low %?
Is aerial (Nair, fair, dair) -> DT punishable (how many frames until Lucario is free to move)?
If I jab a sheild, do I have any options that can beat a shield grab?
Edge guarding tips would be appreciated as well.

Thank you in advance for answers~

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

If you're tying to force rolls. DA/Jab > Dsmash > DT makes people roll like crazy. My opponents just don't know where to go when my Lucario is all over their ***.

I've never been punished for Aerial > DT. It's just too safe for the opponent to punish.

 

[Kankato]

I've noticed DA->ASC is safe on block from max range depending on your opponent's grab range. Do you think it's a good idea if the opponent blocks DA max range or is there something safer?

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I've noticed DA->ASC is safe on block from max range depending on your opponent's grab range. Do you think it's a good idea if the opponent blocks DA max range or is there something safer?

If you get your DA blocked at max range I honestly don't think its that safe of an option because your opponent is too far away from you. This is mostly at lower percents though, at higher percents they'll still be in hitstun. If their reaction time is fast enough and they have decent OoS options (say like Marth's fair in this situation) they can turn that split second ASC into a punish. I also wouldn't DT behind the opponent with a max range DT because you'll be in range to be Dsmashed (depending on the character you're facing). I'm not saying it won't work, but just be warry that you can be punished for that. If your opponent blocks a full range DA you should choose from your smash attacks, or your tilts, according to range and position. Then either ASC or DT. Like I said before, the safeness of ASC differs from character to character though. However, if you're in a situation where you have pretty good offensive momentum built up it wouldn't be a bad idea. Because the opponent will likely roll or WDOoS to distance their self from you, to prevent their percentage from adding up.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Am curious what Lucario's bad matchups are. He's a character I've been eyeballing for a long time and he might be fun to play as a secondary. :o

 

[CBO0tz]

I just watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs7rk2Z3nZM&feature=youtu.be
And my Christ it was amazing.

 

[Bellioes]

Handsome Jack was actually at our Montreal weekly yesterday. He actually ended up taking first place which is great. Anyways, I dont have too much experience with the mu and was hoping you guys could help me out.

First of all, is fair>aFP guaranteed? He took off like 4 of my stocks in total during our three tourney sets and I have no idea how to di it. Up throw/DA/Dtilt>fair>aFP was really hurting me but I dont see it at high lvl play so I am pretty sure its my DI.

Also, I had no idea what he was doing half the time during his combos and just tried holding shield... Someone told me buffering rolls is the answer. Is this true? Does crouchcancelling work too?
Thanks in advance for the help guys. I see it a lot on the Diddy boards so I hope asking for tips against your own character is cool with you guys.

 

[bec]

lucario can stomp anyone who doesn't understand the matchup.

DI away, crouch cancel and yes buffer rolls or spot dodges out of his shield pressure. fair > aFP only works if its not DI'd correctly for the vast majority of cases. also spot dodging can wreck lucario since most of his moves have a lot of end lag. I'd type more but I'm on my phone @_@

 

[CBO0tz]

I really wanna see a very good Lucario vs. a really good Mewtwo MU.

 

[Darkgun]

I really wanna see a very good Lucario vs. a really good Mewtwo MU.

I have no idea where to find it, which is likely the problem at hand, but I do know that the SoCal players iPunchKidz (Lucario) and Kaos (Mewtwo) practice together quite a bit. From what I recall hearing at LTC2, there isn't much uploaded to YouTube, but the SoCal area streams often. If you can find some of their streams, you may be able to find what you're looking for.

 

[CBO0tz]

I have no idea where to find it, which is likely the problem at hand, but I do know that the SoCal players iPunchKidz (Lucario) and Kaos (Mewtwo) practice together quite a bit. From what I recall hearing at LTC2, there isn't much uploaded to YouTube, but the SoCal area streams often. If you can find some of their streams, you may be able to find what you're looking for.

Cool, I'll look them up later. Thunksfershuring

EDIT: after seeing Pokken Lucario in action, I think PM Lucario needs his shield replaced with an Aura shield. Similar to Yoshi with his egg as a shield. Thoughts?

 

[Tomo009]

So does anyone have a list of FP aura charge guaranteed kill %s on different stages?

It's really annoying to test this without 2 controllers and I've just been testing on FD, I really want to know when I should be going for it as it seems to vary a lot.

CPU Jigglypuff dies at 88% on FD whereas Falco/Wolf die at 139%.

It's based entirely on fall speed with no weight factoring in right? 51% is a very large difference though.

I want to know when it's guaranteed haha, the CPU seems to just always DI up.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Can you cancel aerials I'm kind of new to Lucario.

 

[bec]

aerials cancel into specials but not other aerials

 

[paxinchristo]

So there's a local tournament coming up in my area and I was hoping to get some matchup/stage counter-pick advice for a few specific characters:

Marth (getting in on him is nuts sometimes, and Lucario is combo food for him especially)

Mewtwo (annoying as heck for me. Huge range, specials that allow him to get in and out of your space, etc)

Lucas (I simply haven't fought against enough Lucas mains to know the matchup and/or counter-picks).

I would really appreciate some advice/tips!

 

[Tomo009]

I'm not a particularly amazing player but I have a lot of experience against Marth at least.

Your dash dance is nearly as godly as his so try to dance around just outside his fSmash range, watching for dash attacks, if he whiffs something obviously you get an opening. If he short hops dash away a bit further then try to run in for a grab.

Crossing up Marth is incredibly powerful, so short hop downB at the right range can often get you in.

If you end up above him honestly try to downB in an unexpected way or go for the ledge or something because we float right into his sword otherwise.

I find Marth likes to recover low so throwing out aura spheres is not a particularly useful thing, instead I like to go straight for an edge hog and hop back on stage to punish if he upBs on stage. You could try to gimp with aerials but I find that pretty difficult to do through the sword and upB in particular near stage.

Similarly I find it really hard to recover against Marth, have to do some pretty weird things I think, really feel like aura is a necessity. Things like drop down wall jump upB above stage aura cancel to avoid Marth's edge guard.


Not much experience against Mewtwo I just know I hate the matchup, try to predict teleport destinations and punish in the short window, I guess.


Played a fair few Lucas players, interesting matchup, I feel he is the perfect combo food for Lucario but also vise versa. I think we lose this matchup pretty badly because of Lucas' fireballs and DJC/SHFFl approach, but if you can get a hit on Lucas, we are just as likely to kill him as he is to kill us so it isn't totally hopeless. Just have to struggle through a tricky neutral game and land a hit, downB through PK Freeze seems pretty effective though.

 

[monkokaio]

At what percent is Lucario's damage range in PM?

Maybe that's a poor way of wording it, but as we all know in Brawl Lucario's damage output and knockback go up as his percent increases. But did the PM crew leave Lucario at 0% power all the time? Or did they use an inbetween number like 75%?

I haven't done any testing on the matter, and I don't think it even really matters at all. Just genuine curiosity here.

 

[paxinchristo]

I'm pretty sure the PM developers took that feature out in exchange for his "EX meter"-esque mechanic in the form of his aura charges.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

At what percent is Lucario's damage range in PM?

Maybe that's a poor way of wording it, but as we all know in Brawl Lucario's damage output and knockback go up as his percent increases. But did the PM crew leave Lucario at 0% power all the time? Or did they use an inbetween number like 75%?

I haven't done any testing on the matter, and I don't think it even really matters at all. Just genuine curiosity here.

I couldn't really give you an exact number but it's around the 76%, which is close to 1.00 for his old Aura calculations. Not exact but it's pretty close.

If you can combo, his low % damage about is still good if you link your stuff together on good reads of DI and knowing your opponents options in those situations.

 

[Nemiak temp]

What is this character and how do I?

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

What is this character and how do I?

This is a Lucario...

 

[Caketastic]

Hey guys, I'm Handsome Jack from the recent Xanadu video! I'm not on smashboards often, but I'm easily reached on the ssbpm subreddit and I'm going to be joining the lucario skype group soon.

Bellioes, I had a blast at montreal. You guys have a great scene and awesome players. :]


I was on a smash bros spiritual journey road trip a few weeks ago, thats how I made it to Xanadu. Traveling for smash is hard when you live in Wisconsin. I got to stop at tennessee for a great tourney at a local gamestore where I fought a few well known dudes. I fought Soft, Abate, and KOKingpin there and took third in singles and dubs.

Abate has a great mewtwo, we fought twice in the bracket and each time it was last game last stock (minus the very last fight where he two stocked me). He was a super friendly guy and I loved fighting him. Soft had no clue what lucario was in pm. He played falco for our first set. I got three stocked the first game, then three stocked him twice in a row to win the set. Fought him again in losers and three stocked his marth and fox as well. KO Kingpin is a hero and a great player. If you guys ever get to go to tennessee, its a great time.

Xanadu was a very interesting experience. Our crew in Wisconsin has a really diverse set of character picks (Lucario, Ike, squirtle, Lucas, Zard, Gdubs, Samus, Zelda, Roy to name a few). In terms of power ranking for wisconsin, its always up in the air, but for pm i think im either 5 or 6.

Xanadu had Diddy, Lucas, and mario. Only fought three people who didnt play those characters. Italian ninja is an awesome guy and was super respectable. His link has incredible item game tech, and is overall my favorite link to watch. The way I played in the match was boring to me due to my heavy reliance on dash attack to forward smash, but it was effective since link can be hit with that almost all of the time.

I've been playing melee recently and its opened my eyes to smash. Transferring melee knowledge into pm is very VERY useful for lucario. I'll talk technique with you guys for hours on skype if you all want.


If anyone is going to the big house 4 i'll be there. I'll play tons of friendlies, so if you want to fight let me know. I'll be the loud autistic dude with the Fighting Spirit t shirt that quotes Gurren Laggan 24/7.

 

[nimigoha]

A though I just had.

As we know, it's pretty difficult to land a kill move outside of Dsmash or ACFP when your opponent is at really high percents. DA doesn't really kill and eventually stops leading into things.

What would you think about DA having fixed knock back, allowing you to follow up from it regardless of your opponent's percent?

At least then you have an easier time cancelling into your killing Dsmash or ACFP at high percents.

I think it could be broken, as it becomes almost a 'guaranteed kill' (because other dash attacks don't do that already right /s) eventually.

What about one that has drastically reduced KBG, so you're still able to get decent followups past 100%, but not at like 150%.

Why is this thread so dead.