Lucario's Technical Data: Frame Data, Attributes, and More! [WIP]

Jaxas · Oct 31, 2014

Hey everyone, a lot of information has been figured out but I figured it would be pretty helpful to get all of this organized in one spot!

I haven't been the one to find most of this, and credit where credit is due:

Thanks to @ MythTrainerInfinity for finding out everything to do with Aura Damage Scaling!
Thanks to @Croi for providing the Gifs and Frame Data!
Thanks to @Aerodrome for providing Walking and Running speeds, as well as Weight.
Thanks to @Shaya for providing Shield and Dodge frame data (Original Post)
Thanks to @Thinkaman and @Dantarion for providing information from the code dump!
- I'll be integrating this data later on, but for now go here.

Basic Attributes

Weight: 99 (20th Heaviest character in the game, counting Monado Art Shulk as different characters)
Dash Speed: Unknown
Running Speed: 34th Fastest (value currently unknown)
Walking Speed: 33rd Fastest (value currently unknown)

Frame Data and Attack Overview

Croi said:
Every spoiler tag contains a .gif animation, slowed to 10 FPS. Every .gif begins one frame before the animation for his attack/action begins and cuts out one frame after he can shield/do something else, unless otherwise stated.

All shield data refers to the earliest you can shield after the action. If the action is an attack, it assumes the attack hits, so it's including the hitstun from the strike. (Tested at 0%)

Up Smash | Up (Tap) + Attack, or tap C-stick up
Hits on Frame| 15 (First Hit), 24 (Second Hit)
Shield on Frame| 77
Damage (0%), Uncharged)| 13% [3% (First Hit), 10% (Second Hit)]
Damage (999%, Uncharged)| 36% [6% (First Hit), 30% (Second Hit)]
Damage (0%, Full Charge)| 17% [4% (First Hit), 13% (Second Hit)]
Damage (999%, Full Charge)| 42% [9% (First Hit), 33% (Second Hit)]
Kill Potential| High

Sweetspot:

Sourspot:

Forward Smash | Side (Tap) + Attack, or tap C-stick sideways
Hits on Frame| 25 (May be faster by as many as 4 frames; @ Croi 's fastest input time still included some of the charging animation)
Shield on Frame| 59
Damage (0%, Uncharged, Sweetspot)| 11%
Damage (0%, Uncharged, Sourspot)| 8%
Damage (999%, Uncharged, Sweetspot) | 27%
Damage (999%, Uncharged, Sourspot) | 22%
Damage (0%, Full Charge, Sweetspot) | 14%
Damage (0%, Full Charge, Sourspot) | 12%
Damage (999%, Full Charge, Sweetspot) | 38%
Damage (999%, Full Charge, Sourspot) | 30%
Kill Potential| High

Short Hop | Jump, and release before airborne
Airborne on Frame| 5

Full Jump | Jump, and hold until airborne
Airborne on Frame| 5

Main Hit:

Late Hit:

Successful Grab:

Whiffed Grab:

Standing Grab | Grab, or Shield + Attack
Hits on Frame| 6
Whiff End Frame| 30

Successful Dash Grab:

Whiffed Dash Grab:

Dash Grab | Dash/Run -> Grab, or Dash/Run -> Shield + Attack
Hits on Frame| 7
Whiff End Frame| 37

Successful Pivot Grab:

Whiffed Pivot Grab:

Pivot Grab | Turn around (Analog stick back) + Grab
Hits on Frame| 10
Whiff End Frame| 35

Pummel | Grab -> Attack
Hits on Frame| ?
Damage (0%)| 0.5%
Damage (999%)| 1.5%

Neutral Special 1: Aura Sphere
"Charge a ball of energy that can damage foes even while powering up. Press again to launch it."

Neutral Special 2: Snaring Aura Sphere
"Charge a slow-moving energy ball that draws opponents in and damages them."

Neutral Special 3: Piercing Aura Sphere
"Charge a faster, weaker energy ball that passes through foes."

Side Special 1: Force Palm
"A punch that unleashes concentrated energy. Will grab the enemy if they're close enough."

Side Special 2: Advancing Force Palm
"Dash forward while using Force Palm. If it doesn't connect, you're left open to attacks."

Side Special 3: Long Distance Force Palm
"A Force Palm attack with more range but less damage."

Attack Hit:

Helpless:

Up Special 1: Extreme Speed
"A dash through the air that ends in an attack. You can swerve midflight with directional input."

Up Special 2: Ride the Wind
"Fly through the air longer but slower than Extreme Speed. Doesn't do damage."

No Offensive Hitbox| Recovery Move Only
Helpless on Frame| ?
Shield on Frame| ?
Kill Potential| None

Up Special 3: Extreme Speed Attack
"Leaves you vulnerable at the start, but sends opponents flying at any point during the dash."

Down Special 1: Double Team
"Prepare for an incoming attack, and counterattack with a sliding kick if struck."

Down Special 2: Glancing Counter
"Dodge to avoid taking damage, and then immediately strike with a strong punch."

Down Special 3: Stunning Double Team
"A counter move that can paralyze your opponent if timed correctly."

Spotdodge| Shield + Tap Down
Invincibility Starts| ?
Last Invincible Frame| 18
Shield on Frame| 28

Forward Roll| Shield + Tap Side (Direction you're facing)
Invincibility Starts| 4
Last Invincible Frame| 18
Shield on Frame| 31

Backwards Roll| Shield + Tap Side (Opposite of the direction that you're facing)
Invincibility Starts| 4
Last Invincible Frame| 18
Shield on Frame| 31

Air Dodge:

Air Dodge Landing:

Helpless Landing Lag| Landing while in the helpless state
Shield on Frame| 40

Aura Damage Scaling Information

Lucario's Aura Damage Scaling Chart by @

MythTrainerInfinity
I'll probably work this data into this thread eventually, however that will take quite a while as there's a lot of info to add and format. For now, MTI's thread works just fine!

Jaxas · Oct 31, 2014

Reserved

Also, if anyone sees anything wrong or missing, please let me know!

CrowGoesCaw · Nov 2, 2014

Don't have a lot of time to look at this atm, but one thing I noticed is missing is Up Tilt seems to have a tipper, which does more knockback and damage.

Jaxas · Nov 3, 2014

CrowGoesCaw said:
Don't have a lot of time to look at this atm, but one thing I noticed is missing is Up Tilt seems to have a tipper, which does more knockback and damage.

Whoops, thanks! It's added now.

MythTrainerInfinity · Nov 3, 2014

Tiny nitpick, but some of the base damages in the frame data is incorrect. If you look at my Aura Chart Jab 1 does 1% at base.

Keep up the good work though.

Jaxas · Nov 3, 2014

MythTrainerInfinity said:
Tiny nitpick, but some of the base damages in the frame data is incorrect. If you look at my Aura Chart Jab 1 does 1% at base.

Keep up the good work though.

Yeah, I ended up using about half the damage values from my previous thread and half from your spreadsheet; I wasn't quite sure which to use for a lot of them (Jab technically does 1.6% damage fresh at 0%: in the waiting room with the sandbag it rounds up to 2, but in training it shows 1%). I'll probably end up using yours instead until I have time to sit down and figure out the more precise decimal values

MythTrainerInfinity · Nov 3, 2014

Jaxas said:
Yeah, I ended up using about half the damage values from my previous thread and half from your spreadsheet; I wasn't quite sure which to use for a lot of them (Jab technically does 1.6% damage fresh at 0%: in the waiting room with the sandbag it rounds up to 2, but in training it shows 1%). I'll probably end up using yours instead until I have time to sit down and figure out the more precise decimal values

There's a quicker way to do it (with the exception of stuff like the Jabs because how low damage they are) without going into Training mode. I'll give you one example (I wanna sleep a bit after work).

The below can be done in Excel in seconds, I'm just explaining it.

Remember, that Lucario's Aura calculation changes when he hits 70%. So, looking at my chart... Between 8% and 68% Lucario's Fully Charged Aura Sphere increases from 12% to 17%. So take the difference between those and divide them. 60/5 is 12. Our damage needs to be 8% to do a 12% fully charged Aura Sphere fresh. Take 4/12 and that's 1/3, so... We do 11 1/3% from fully charged Aura Spheres at zero, fresh.

I just tested it in training mode and 3 fresh fully charged Aura Spheres at 0% do 34% total. So it seems this game works with fractions instead of just decimals? Interesting.

Jaxas · Nov 4, 2014

MythTrainerInfinity said:
There's a quicker way to do it (with the exception of stuff like the Jabs because how low damage they are) without going into Training mode. I'll give you one example (I wanna sleep a bit after work).

The below can be done in Excel in seconds, I'm just explaining it.

Remember, that Lucario's Aura calculation changes when he hits 70%. So, looking at my chart... Between 8% and 68% Lucario's Fully Charged Aura Sphere increases from 12% to 17%. So take the difference between those and divide them. 60/5 is 12. Our damage needs to be 8% to do a 12% fully charged Aura Sphere fresh. Take 4/12 and that's 1/3, so... We do 11 1/3% from fully charged Aura Spheres at zero, fresh.

I just tested it in training mode and 3 fresh fully charged Aura Spheres at 0% do 34% total. So it seems this game works with fractions instead of just decimals? Interesting.

Awesome! Hopefully I'll get working on that tomorrow; I have a bunch of stuff to memorize tonight for a test, unfortunately. Thanks for the tip!

Sunnysunny · Nov 4, 2014

Wow wtf you found the frame data so soon?
I'm really impressed. X_X
Do you mind if I place a link to this page in the guide and possibly use the gifs?

This is absurdly helpful!

Jaxas · Nov 4, 2014

Sunnysunny said:
Wow wtf you found the frame data so soon?
I'm really impressed. X_X
Do you mind if I place a link to this page in the guide and possibly use the gifs?

This is absurdly helpful!

I'm fine with it, but it's actually @Croi you should be thanking/asking, as he's the one who got the frame data; I just put everything together in one place!

~Radiance~ · Nov 13, 2014

i like looking at this because it lets me see what is best OoS and what options may serve as better than others, such as utilt coming out the same frame as jab 1. utilt is so beautiful as always

the fact that dair comes out on frame 4 makes it a great oos option, if not limited purely by the fact that unless you are facing away from someone in shield and are that close you may as well grab.

since force palm comes out on frame 9, can it be jump canceled oos and STILL get the command grab or would it just get the aura blast damage? i can prob go test it out right now, just thought id ask since 3 frames difference for a command grab that kills early seems like itd be a good oos option if it worked

also since i never actually looked at frame data on this, how many frames does it take to drop shield anyway if it is not being pressured?

Jaxas · Nov 13, 2014

Sazzy Latias said:
i like looking at this because it lets me see what is best OoS and what options may serve as better than others, such as utilt coming out the same frame as jab 1. utilt is so beautiful as always

the fact that dair comes out on frame 4 makes it a great oos option, if not limited purely by the fact that unless you are facing away from someone in shield and are that close you may as well grab.

since force palm comes out on frame 9, can it be jump canceled oos and STILL get the command grab or would it just get the aura blast damage? i can prob go test it out right now, just thought id ask since 3 frames difference for a command grab that kills early seems like itd be a good oos option if it worked

also since i never actually looked at frame data on this, how many frames does it take to drop shield anyway if it is not being pressured?

I'll have to double-check, but I'm almost positive that shield-drop was found to be 10frames this time around (as opposed to 14 in Melee and 7 in Brawl).

And I believe you can only jump cancel USmash and USpecial, not side specials; I've read a few times that it's changed in this game, but I haven't seen any evidence you can do so...
Would certainly be nice if so, though!

~Radiance~ · Nov 13, 2014

i checked and felt really dumb, because of course it cant and i shouldve known that since i always did rising dblade oos as marth in brawl. sadly doesnt work.

since its ten frames to drop it sounds like shield pressure will be safer then, at least against people who try to drop shield as opposed to using oos options. even then though, lucarios fastest option would be dair oos which takes a total of 9 frames to come out when you add in the 5 it takes to get airborne and the 4 for the hitbox to come out. hm. ill have to look into this more, ive always been a huge fan of aerials and smashes oos, but looks like it may not be as safe now.

Jaxas · Nov 13, 2014

Sazzy Latias said:
i checked and felt really dumb, because of course it cant and i shouldve known that since i always did rising dblade oos as marth in brawl. sadly doesnt work.

since its ten frames to drop it sounds like shield pressure will be safer then, at least against people who try to drop shield as opposed to using oos options. even then though, lucarios fastest option would be dair oos which takes a total of 9 frames to come out when you add in the 5 it takes to get airborne and the 4 for the hitbox to come out. hm. ill have to look into this more, ive always been a huge fan of aerials and smashes oos, but looks like it may not be as safe now.

Yeah, honestly Lucario doesn't seem to be that strong OoS, but then again I haven't looked at frame data for other characters that much before.
Fastest options are:
- Grab (Frame 6), though this has relatively poor range
- Dair (Frame 9), also poor range
- JC Usmash (Frame 16? 1 for JC + 15 until hit, if that's correct)

Can you Jump Cancel into a Utilt in this? I don't remember; if so then we'd have a frame 7 Utilt with solid range OoS, but I don't believe you can...
I'll go test

----- EDIT -----
Yeah, dang; didn't think so. I guess that leaves us with just the options above, which are all relatively slow...
Do note though that JCUsmash and shield drop -> Utilt OoS are the same frame count, so anything you can punish with Usmash you can hit from further with Utilt

MythTrainerInfinity · Nov 13, 2014

Shield DI will make the most out of our grab. Don't forget we have death combos UThrow to double jump UAir that will kill some characters when both of us are around 60-80%.

Also, we do have Air Walk, basically a rising DAir OoS if someone smacks our shield. I've done a lot of notation for it in Brawl.

We also have Double Team which will easily punish a lot of laggy moves and aggressive opponents. If we buffer it through a shield drop that's only 14 frames. Or if we jump that's 9.

~Radiance~ · Nov 13, 2014

DT OoS seems pretty good still given that most characters should still be able to hit us when we short hop. a 9 frame move with good kill power is nice as a read, given that its reactionary due to the amount of frames its out. I also forgot about dair';s physics being different when hit on shield, that could be useful.

tbh most of the time I'm doing fair oos even though its not amazing frame wise. #marththings

Jaxas · Nov 13, 2014

Sazzy Latias said:
DT OoS seems pretty good still given that most characters should still be able to hit us when we short hop. a 9 frame move with good kill power is nice as a read, given that its reactionary due to the amount of frames its out. I also forgot about dair';s physics being different when hit on shield, that could be useful.

tbh most of the time I'm doing fair oos even though its not amazing frame wise. #marththings

I do Fair a bit too much myself, same reason. That and mis-space Dair, because I'm trying to use Falco's spike in Brawl...

Anyways how do you do the rising Dair? Just anytime you use it OoS or something?

MythTrainerInfinity · Nov 13, 2014

This is old and applies to Brawl, but still should somewhat apply and answer your question.

I. Basic Descriptions:

Air Walking: This involves someone whacking Lucario's shield then Lucario jumps out of shield, uses DAir, and rises with it. You can move horizontally with it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58b6ForL4fc#t=1m21s

Momentum through hitstun: DAiring when we are in hitstun.

Jumping out of hitstun: At the end of hitstun you can jump and perform a rising DAir. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl5kwiA1MH0#t=1m51s

Fast Fall DAir: If you fast fall and DAir at the right time you will sorta stall in the air, but still move down with it.

II. Additional mechanics/tips to known ways to DAir:

Air Walking:

Master this and you will be able to punish a number of kill moves.

Depending on shieldstun you have more or less time to pull this off. It is not a good idea to use this against low lag moves/jabs because there is a good chance you'll mess it up or get hit.

Theoretically you could use this against any and all attacks that bat at your shield, but as stated its not always the most ideal choice.

Shield DI/SDI grants you greater horizontal distance.

So basically its easier to do this against moves that result in more shieldstun aka moves that can kill.

A common concern is that your shield is knocked too far by common kill/powerful moves, however, this is not always true. If you use shield DI you will have more distance to work with.

If you move horizontally when doing this it becomes incredibly hard to DI out of it.

Can be performed out of a perfect shield, but it becomes harder to perform because you have fewer frames to execute it.

A good way to practice would be against a Snake with them dropping Nades. You can then apply additional shield pressure.

Momentum through hitstun:

At low percents/through quick multi-hit moves you can literally perform this while (fast) falling and move down at the same speed. However, this is very easy to punish, so be careful.

If your opponent is under you and they are trying another move to juggle you might have enough room to use DAir.

Obviously this can be used for momentum canceling.

Fast Fall DAir:

If you are crafty with this you may be able to shield poke with the second hit. Ex. Feet that are not covered by the shield.

If you attempt the above make sure their shield is a bit smaller or you have a good chance of getting punished.

This can be performed in such a way where only the first hit comes out and you land. Then you can follow up with something else. Against a clever opponent, however, you have a chance of getting punished during the time it takes you to do something else.

~Radiance~ · Nov 13, 2014

i knew about doing it off of shield pressure, but did not know you could do it if you jumped after hitstun, thats pretty cool and looks really useful. do you know if that has carried over from brawl? if we dont id be willing to test it with someone, or im sure i could get someone around my area to help me test it.

another note: double team shortens our SH when done, so its a pretty reliable punish oos. im sure that was known by most already, but its nice because it means moves like jab on shield or some slow multi hit tilt are easily punishable with DT SH OoS (yay pretentious use of short hand notation)

*edit: this is a rather specific question but do we have any need for a guide/testing of any sort around here? I was really active in making guides and testing stuff back in the pika boards for brawl, and as a lucario main this time around im really interested in giving back to the community and contributing. When i first picked up robin i made a guide on what moves hit OoS since his aerials are wonky. It seems that lucario may have some issues with out of shield options in regard to frames. would anyone like to see a guide on the following?:

looking at every characters tilts and whether lucario can or cannot punish them OoS. for example, ike ftilts our shield. id look at can we fair him, drop shield and ftilt/dtilt, drop shield and fsmash. id look at all options that hit our shields from both grab range and just out of grab range, as this would effect whether or not drop shield force palm would be an option or not.

this is kind of confusing, but i can look into making this as it would be nice to know if someone tilts or smashes our shield from a given distance if we have any options that are able to punish. just let me know if people feel like this would be useful and ill start it.

Jaxas · Nov 13, 2014

Sazzy Latias said:
this is a rather specific question but do we have any need for a guide/testing of any sort around here? I was really active in making guides and testing stuff back in the pika boards for brawl, and as a lucario main this time around im really interested in giving back to the community and contributing. When i first picked up robin i made a guide on what moves hit OoS since his aerials are wonky. It seems that lucario may have some issues with out of shield options in regard to frames. would anyone like to see a guide on the following?:

looking at every characters tilts and whether lucario can or cannot punish them OoS. for example, ike ftilts our shield. id look at can we fair him, drop shield and ftilt/dtilt, drop shield and fsmash. id look at all options that hit our shields from both grab range and just out of grab range, as this would effect whether or not drop shield force palm would be an option or not.

this is kind of confusing, but i can look into making this as it would be nice to know if someone tilts or smashes our shield from a given distance if we have any options that are able to punish. just let me know if people feel like this would be useful and ill start it.

That sounds pretty helpful, actually! Let me know if you need help, as well

MythTrainerInfinity · Nov 13, 2014

Sazzy Latias said:
i knew about doing it off of shield pressure, but did not know you could do it if you jumped after hitstun, thats pretty cool and looks really useful. do you know if that has carried over from brawl? if we dont id be willing to test it with someone, or im sure i could get someone around my area to help me test it.

another note: double team shortens our SH when done, so its a pretty reliable punish oos. im sure that was known by most already, but its nice because it means moves like jab on shield or some slow multi hit tilt are easily punishable with DT SH OoS (yay pretentious use of short hand notation)

Air Walk works almost just like it did in Brawl. However, it looks like you have to tilt your shield when taking the shield hit to be able to do it horizontally in this smash iteration. That's the only difference I've found thus far.

Shield DI is absolutely crucial in this.

Jaxas · Nov 14, 2014

MythTrainerInfinity said:
Air Walk works almost just like it did in Brawl. However, it looks like you have to tilt your shield when taking the shield hit to be able to do it horizontally in this smash iteration. That's the only difference I've found thus far.

Shield DI is absolutely crucial in this.

For Shield SDI, you have to tap the direction and make sure the analog stick is back to neutral before the hitlag ends, yes? It seems like if you hold it too long then you roll; is that correct, or am I missing something?

~Radiance~ · Nov 14, 2014

you can easily tilt it up by just holding it up right or up left since you wont jump oos unless you have tap jump on, thats the easist way to do it imo.

and yea if youd like to help me at all id love some help. Ill probably get a friend to help me with testing what moves on shield we can punish from a set distance, but if youd like to maybe take a certain amount of characters and test them we could split up the work. we could always just do it together and chat via skype or such. leme know what floats your boat (ill be gone most of this weekend for a wedding)

Jaxas · Nov 14, 2014

Sazzy Latias said:
you can easily tilt it up by just holding it up right or up left since you wont jump oos unless you have tap jump on, thats the easist way to do it imo.

and yea if youd like to help me at all id love some help. Ill probably get a friend to help me with testing what moves on shield we can punish from a set distance, but if youd like to maybe take a certain amount of characters and test them we could split up the work. we could always just do it together and chat via skype or such. leme know what floats your boat (ill be gone most of this weekend for a wedding)

I'm actually going to be rather busy this weekend myself; potentially 2 tournaments as well as studying for tests on Monday...
But that sounds good; send me a message on Skype (Jaxas.Scarlet), Facebook, or Google Talk (Jaxas.Scarlet@gmail.com). Any of them work for me

~Radiance~ · Nov 14, 2014

Added you on Skype. Skype name latiaslulu. Hit me up whenever you have free time

Jaxas · Nov 20, 2014

Hey everyone, @Thinkaman and @Dantarion got some more data!
Thread here, and I'll be integrating this in once I have time.

Jaxas · Mar 26, 2015

Oh wow, I forgot to request this a while ago; my bad everyone.

I haven't played Lucario for a while; if this is still useful could a mod please pass ownership to someone who'll keep this better updated? Thanks!

Marse14456 · May 20, 2015

Hey im new here! not sure if this would be the right place to ask, but i was watching this youtube vid with a very good lucario in it, and he seemed to cancel his aura sphere charge with no lag, and he was able to act out of it immediately anybody know anything about this? Heres the link to the vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKVV4iqidD0 you can see him use this tech somewhere around 12:30.

Lucario's Technical Data: Frame Data, Attributes, and More! [WIP]

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