Lucario's overall changes in Smash 4

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I dont have proof but it feels very much more small compared to brawl. Ask anyone who has the game and they should say the same.

It feels his regular grab distance is the same. It feels Force Palm Grab might be smaller... However, regular ol' Pivot Grab range feels buffed.

Seriously, it feels like he can grab about one of his body distance away and I think the grab box for Pivot grab starts where his head is at the time he initiates the pivot grab.

Another thing worth mentioning is... you can still do stuff like SH FAir to NAir based on the opponent's DI. It kinda looks like the hitstun to FAir was buffed, so you can do some weird stuff like FAir to double Jump FAir too.

It looks like NAir's landing lag is the same (2 frames?).

Also due to hitstun buffs, we might even be able to do something crazy like Aura Sphere charge combo to DAir/USmash.

Or even... First hit of FTilt to grab or UTilt. We really need that frame data...

 

[Loota]

I've been doing that AS charge -> upsmash since the beginning basically and I'm not sure if I have ever missed it. It seems totally legit to me at least.

One thing I would like to have tested is that grounded dair on shield (both hits) -> FP seems to be guaranteed at higher percents but I'm not sure how much % we need for it to have enough hitstun. First hit grounded dair -> FP/grab would also be cool to test out if it's as legit as I think (at least it's really hard to react to).

Also, it hit me today that we can't do shorthop fair -> bair anymore, I miss that cross up so much now ;-; Bair seems to have some aura effects come out before the hitbox itself activates which is stupid.

 

[RT]

Bair is just a stupid good move in general.

 

[Zoa]

Here's some help for my fellow Smashers that get confused by Lucario's range:

Think of his moves' hitboxes as exactly as they were in Brawl.


The hitboxes in this game are comprised of bubbles. Lucario's aura attacks in Brawl had clear visuals utilizing bubbles. In this game everything looks like a Force Palm blast, and many portions of these blasts (namely the tips) do not have a hitbox. This can be incredibly confusing. So think of his attacks as if they were still utilizing the Brawl circular hitboxes.

 

[Zoa]

FP grab IS smaller. I ran this on Bowser in training while he did his idle animation. Check my aura research posts. I could grab Bowser close to his hand, yet had to be overlapping his character model for FP grab to work.

 

[RT]

FP grab was probably rebalanced because of how much range the non-grab portion has. Since the grab can be a kill move, it fits with the whole risk vs reward theme.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I keep on forgetting to mention that NAir ends a lot sooner in the air. You might even be able to combo out of the late, back hitbox of NAir.

I am happy we can still do stuff like SH FAir to NAir.

We also have a lot of offstage shenanigans. I am kinda still a bit afraid to chase some characters offstage because of my Brawl instincts.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm very satisfied with all of the changes Sm4sh Lucario underwent through in development. So with all this information soaked up, you guys think a Lucario Q&A Thread is ready to be made for burning questions from Lucario players beginners to Pros? Because I know I have some extreme questions

 

[Meta651]

I think that the Q&A thread should be done, there's already some info and I think a lot of us have question about Lucario...because I also have some questions.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I've been also thinking about opening up a matchup discussion thread, note keyword here is "discussion" since I think it may be a little early to put down ratios.

 

[an1bal]

CAn someone explain the wall grab mechanics? it seems to me you can up b to a wall and then double jump sometimes sometimes just single jump and no up B available.

 

[RT]

From my understanding, it seems similar to how it worked in Brawl.

When you wallcling from ES, you must either land OR get hit by an attack before you can use ES. You do a double-jump by pressing jump, or press away from the wall to walljump. This is not infinite, you will begin to lose height from jumps and wallcling will last shorter periods the longer you do this.

Be aware that you can be footstooled.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hmm is it me or does Force Palm hit boxes last a bit longer?

 

[Kami~]

I guess the site is somewhat working again sooo

has anyone else noticed that lucario'z get up attack (not the ledge one) almost breaks shields if both hits hit the opponents shield? I was playing a fox and he got too close and I tried to use it and after both hits 90% of his shield just disappeared.
This could be useful if you weakened their shield beforehand and they wanted to bait a get up attack or something by waiting in shield.

Forgot what % I was at but I know it wasn't past 80 or so

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Get up attacks wreck shields in general in this game.

I am starting to like NAir a lot more. Since it is two different hits it can be used against air dodgers and grab combos/strings. I think NAir's first hitbox is pretty big, but kinda disappears after.

At low percents I think if we stale stuff like UThrow a bit we can do more combos/strings at mid to high percents. I have been trying out UThrow to NAir to DAir depending on DI and it is not bad against larger characters.

We should study combos because we have a lot of unexplored opportunities with the increased hit stun. Hint: Aura Sphere charge.

 

[Steam]

I'll hit the lab for a bit and see what can register as true combos involving aura sphere charge.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm hoping for OoS+Utilt & OoS+SH+Nair, hitting with the aura attack behind Lucario. That's good enough for me, for now

 

[Steam]

I know uthrow -> nair is a true combo at low%. Lucario can upthrow to fair at low% too but it's kinda a pain to do on the 3DS and get combos from, but you can do it.

sideB -> dash attack works at low%. you can definitely combo into AS charge out of fair if you can get the spacing right. I'm having a hell of a time spacing though with no C-stick

 

[Kami~]

About the Rosalina MU

grabbing her at any point is extremely dangerous when luma is around of course but lucario might have a solution with upthrow since it's 2 hits. The 2nd hit knocks luma/any non grabbed character away if she is near rosa at all making you safe after the grab cooldown. if you were to do dthrow for example you would get punished/killed by luma since it's only 1 hit and doesnt affect luma in anyway

It was mentioned earlier in this thread but upthrow can kill anyone that isnt grabbed near lucario if they get in the hitbox of his u-throw

 

[Zoa]

So I decided to come back to Smash 4. Figures. Mewtwo hype.

Anyways, I present my hitbox research on Lucario's aerials! All done in 1/2 and 1/4 speed on training.

Dair's hitboxes still have okay horizontal hitboxes. I'm even able to hit with the first hit facing directly at a jumping Mario close to his character model. The major change was how they connect into each other. It's much more difficult to do. My only major successes are if Lucario's character model is directly upon the opponent. The hitboxes extend all around Lucario's "shorts", feet, and some invisible circular hitboxes about the size of Brawl dair.

Uair was weird testing this out, however I'm confident I got it. The hitbox covers all of Luc's legs, "shorts", and the aura burst. The aura burst has no horizontal hitboxes. What you see is what you get.

See fair's trail? It covers all that. However in order for the beginning to hit you must be overlapping Luc's legs.

Only the aura trail from nair hits. It is massive though. The angle at which Luc spins, coupled with lingering hitbox and good reach help. Nair doesn't hit behind you until a weak hitbox pops up late in the move. Not even in Luc's character model unless you overlap the large opposite hitbox.

Bair's hitbox consists of Luc's outstretching arm, the aura burst, and very narrow vertical hitboxes that exist outside of the illustrated aura burst.

 

[DrSoussou]

Hey guys! I've been all over the Greninja boards but I missed you all so I thought I'd pop in and see what was going on. Good to see the analysis still flowing. I'm still using Lucario as my secondary (he and greninja have great overlapping coverage as far as matchups go) so I'll be here more often, hopefully.

Might be unrelated or already-mentioned, but I was curious to know if Lucario still has the ffall near opponent into quick FP command grab. Thanks

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hey guys! I've been all over the Greninja boards but I missed you all so I thought I'd pop in and see what was going on. Good to see the analysis still flowing. I'm still using Lucario as my secondary (he and greninja have great overlapping coverage as far as matchups go) so I'll be here more often, hopefully.

Might be unrelated or already-mentioned, but I was curious to know if Lucario still has the ffall near opponent into quick FP command grab. Thanks

Yeah, you can start FP right before landing and grab. It feels like the grab frames have been buffed though.

 

[Zwzchow]

Wrong thread oops

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think when I work on updating this I'm going to turn this into a guide, thoughts?

 

[Masonomace]

I think when I work on updating this I'm going to turn this into a guide, thoughts?

I dig it.
Suggestion: maybe it'd be a introduction of displaying changes between Brawlcario & Smash4cario, & then the guide follows, telling us about each attack input & how they integrate into Lucario's general play-style & such.

Overall my thought about a guide is for approval.

 

[MisterSonic]

With the 3DS version out soon, we're gonna get a huge influx of new information on what changed with Lucario from smash 4, I'll be updating this OP on all the information that is 100% confirmed to have been changed or is the same. If you have any information that is confirmed, provide a link to the evidence and posts that confirm something is the same or is change.

• Overall

Aura has been buffed for how much it influences him compared to Brawl, moves seems to scale differently with aura in terms of knock-back and damage.
His smash attacks have been claimed to be faster.
He skins are green, purple, dark gray, and the rest are shades of blue.

• Jab

Jab is the same in terms of knockback, the animation and hitbox is slightly differently. Might be slightly harder to link the whole thing together.

• Dash Attack

Still not affected by Aura. Seems to kill pretty decently. Lag seems to be mostly the same from Brawl, it doesn't have the follow up potential it had in Brawl it seems, not sure needs more testing.

• Ftilt

Is a forward swipe, not a double hit poke anymore. It can be angled.

• Dtilt

Seems pretty much the same from Brawl.

• Utilt

Same as Brawl mostly, still is very fast. Has some good kill potential.

• Fsmash

A lot of changes here. It's faster overall, still hits like a truck. It doesn't linger anymore and doesn't hit behind him.

• Usmash

It's a little buffed this time, faster start-up a little less reach, but it sucks people into the strong hit. Also kills at lower percents.

• Dsmash

Same as Brawl in animation, comess out faster, kills faster, and it has more range. Yeah just overall a straight buff.

• Uair

Only thing changed is that his whole body is not a hitbox anymore. Pretty much the same.

• Dair

Doesn't stall like in Brawl, less range. Still functions like Brawl just those two main changes.

• Fair

Fair strings still possible, it's harder to follow up this time since some characters need you to use your double jump this time now. Less carry off potential.

• Bair

Different animation but still the same as Brawl's overall.

• NormalB

Still Aura sphere from Brawl with a new visual to it, It travels faster in both forms and is closer to the ground. At max Aura it kills lighter characters at 60%.

• SideB

Still Force Palm from Brawl with what looks like a slightly new visual to it, The whiffed Force Palm seems to do more knockback than in Brawl grab hitbox is smaller than before. Falling behind someones shield and doing the frame 8 aerial grab still works like in Brawl.

• UpB

Still the same from Brawl visually His Extreme Speed now scales with Aura on Distance. It has a hitbox at the end of the UpB. The movement curving is even stronger.

• DownB

Same as Brawl with updated visuals. Damage and Knockback still unknown.

• Pummel

Dunno right now seems the same.

• Fthrow

Seems the same from Brawl.

• Bthrow

Seems the same from Brawl, except now scales with Aura.

• Uthrow

Seems the Same from Brawl.

• Dthrow

Seems the same from Brawl, except now scales with Aura.

• Final Smash

Changed from Aura Storm to Mega Lucario. Instead of shooting a large Kamehameha Lucario will now transform into Mega Lucario where his Aura is at Maximum power.

• UpTaunt

Same.

• SideTaunt

Same.

• DownTaunt

Same.

Overall: He seems like he got a few nerfs but was straight buffed overall.

Has his max aura percentage been increased? Or does it still max at around 167?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Has his max aura percentage been increased? Or does it still max at around 167?

190, check the Aura Chart thread for a breakdown of %s.

 

[RT]

There is even a tip on the Wii U version that gives this percent.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh boy 1.0.4.

Time to check everything again -_-.

 

[King Funk]

Some people saying Lucario's aura got nerfed but gonna check it out tomorrow.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think off a glance Knockback was changed on a few things, but I'm tired and can't compare.

If anyone can that would be appreciated.

 

[King Funk]

I think off a glance Knockback was changed on a few things, but I'm tired and can't compare.

If anyone can that would be appreciated.

Actually, I'll probably pass by home and check it out myself a bit. I have a good memory of %'s and knockbacks.

 

[SmashRacer]

If his aura did get nerfed, lets hope he got lingering hitboxes and more range on his attacks
But that's probably not gonna happen

Edit: Outside of Special Moves

 

[Croi]

People are listing changes that aren't in the Wii U version (Shulk's percentage buffs, for example), so I have no idea what to expect either. Hopefully it's not too extreme.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People are listing changes that aren't in the Wii U version (Shulk's percentage buffs, for example), so I have no idea what to expect either. Hopefully it's not too extreme.

Percent Buffs to Shulk?

 

[Croi]

Each of Shulk's standard A attacks do roughly 1% more, from his jab to his nair to his dsmash. Buster Art tacks on an extra 2%, plus whatever boost it was before.

 

[Pentao]

Percent Buffs to Shulk?

All of Shulk's (A) attacks do 1% more. His jab combo does 3-4-5 damage for a total of 12%.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I don't really feel any immediate jumps of differences with Lucario post patch, unless they made the landing lag for missing a ledge sweetspot with extremespeed worse (it feels like they made it much worse, but at the same time, you're almost never landing like this).

If they did nerf aura, I think someone else is gonna need to test it extensively. At around 160% for Lucario, and 60% for the opponent (Little Mac as the test dummy), any smash from center stage insta-KOs, force palm grab needs the opponent to be at like 80%ish for an instant KO from center stage. At around 120% for Lucario, and around 40% for the opponent, you're not KOing them from center stage, but smashes still do a lot of knockback from center stage. Back-air is respectable knockback, as is the FP grab so.... I dunno.

Recovery might be slightly worse? I dunno, you still shoot off into space around 70%+.



EDIT: I tried matching up a few numbers with the aura scaling chart made by Myth, I don't have time to do all of it, but from what I tested, the % dealt hasn't really changed. So I think we're going to have to look at knockback differences if anything. Lucario isn't exactly the type to KO from the center of the stage without smashes anyway.

Also it seems like the first two hits of the jab connect with each other better, but the third hit is still dumb and requires you to slow down your jab combo to make sure all three hits connect when you and your opponent are at like >60%.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Interesting.

Gonna sleep on this then. I'm gonna wait for someone to hack into the game and check which files were changed this time around.

 

[Croi]

Also, maybe it's just me, but I don't really feel any immediate jumps of differences with Lucario post patch, unless they made the landing lag for missing a ledge sweetspot with extremespeed worse (it feels like they made it much worse, but at the same time, you're almost never landing like this).

Man, I hope not. Recovering into the stage is one of Lucario's most valuable recovery mixups.

 

[RT]

If anything, the supposed changes so far will indirectly help Lucario since it makes some characters not kill as quickly (i.e. Sheik).

Should be interesting to see what people find throughout the day.