~Lucario Matchup Chart/Discussion: Rotation Twenty-Four: Meta Knight~

[Kappie]

I don't know much about this matchup specifically, but I do know that you need to be very alert of bananas coming your way. A very huge thing with Diddy (and this is why many people get annihilated first time up against a Diddy) is that you need to understand what's gonna happen once you shield a banana. You need to get rid of your shield asap after you've reflected the banana, because holding your shield too long means you're immobile, and diddy can do a grab, dash attack, or throw more bananas. You need to understand your and Diddy's options after you shield.

Picking up Diddy's bananas is huge, also. If you can get 1 banana your control will be much better. Try to do this consistently. Don't get too reactive. Try to decide the tempo of the match, preferably high, so that Diddy can't get into his banana game very well.

This is where my knowledge ends

 

[MrEh]

Why do you guys say that this matchup is in Lucario's favor. All you've done is tell us how good Bowser is in this matchup but you still say it's in Lucario's favor. It makes no sense to me.

Because Lucario still has the quick high priority air game that Bowser has difficulty dealing with. Bowser hates being in air, and Lucario can juggle him to unholy percents. If you keep Bowser in the air and get below him, he has no good way to get back onto the stage, minus Bowser Bombing the ledge. That's why he does so well on Norfair, he can ground himself easily, and he can easily find platforms to latch onto.

It's really all about spacing. Lucario outranges Bowser on a lot of his attacks, and you can use that to your advantage. All of Bowser's grab releases and crazy defensive game really just prevents this matchup from being 70-30.

 

[Samuelson]

Well i happen to have a good amount of Diddy Kong experience. At first everybody thinks that this matchup is in Diddy's favor but once you learn how to deal with his precious banana's it becomes obvious that it is in Lucario's favor. I like to use AS to disrupt his ground game, our aura sphere annoys Diddy mains just as much as his bananas annoy everybody else. Don't use Fsmash as often as you would against other characters, it is just too laggy and if you miss, which you most likely will, you will end up with a banana right in your face which will also end up resulting in a Dsmash/Fsmash or some 30% combo. Abuse your aerials, Diddy Kong actually has pretty good priority in the air but Lucario is just better up in the sky.

You should know that Airdodge, Dash Attack and most, if not all, or your aerials pick up bananas. Diddy's dash attack picks up banana's better that Lucario's so while you can use banana's against him most likely Diddy will pick them up right after. Apparently, Lucario can dribble Diddy's bananas which is something that i find awesome. I havn't learned how to do it yet but eventually i will learn just so i can scare the crap out of other Diddy mains lol. I try not to give Diddy mains any space to set up banana's and i try to sometimes stay on platforms so i don't get banana *****. If i see an opportunity to steal a banana i will take it and use it against Diddy to the best of my abilities.

One thing that makes this matchup especially hard is that Diddy often can't kill until 150% or more. This means that Lucario will be almost at his full potential every stock unless Diddy gets a clutch gimp or the Lucario has bad DI. Diddy can gimp with spike, his hump move or very rarely rocket barrel spike. I used to think that Diddy was near impossible to gimp but then i realized that if you mess up his Rocket Barrel then he most likely isn't coming back. A well timed Dair does the trick i think. For whatever reason i find myself stage spiking more in this matchup then any other, sometimes i will Dair stagespike Diddy out of his Rockets, just some random thing i thought i should add. His main kill moves are Fsmash and Dsmash. They are usually pretty diminished when they need it to kill. I don't know what Diddy mains diminish their 2 best kill moves but i see it happen a lot. You can DI out of his Fsmash which is something that i can actually do very often. DI up and toward Diddy if you're right next to him and DI up and away if it's at the tip of his Fsmash.

Ban:
Final Destination - Diddy's ground game is too good and it gives him too much space to set up banana's.
Smashville - Pretty much the same as FD but to a lesser extent.

Pick:
Norfair - If this stage is legal, which it most likely isn't, then pick it. Diddy can't do anything with banana's and you live to even higher percents here as long as you can avoid the lava.
Japes - This stage is huge and allows you to live until even higher percents. This just happens to be one of my favorite counter picks so i usually go here lol

Stage's to watch out for:
Delphino - Diddy can wall you with banana's and he can walk you off into the blastzone with banana's. Just something you should be aware of. He can also spike you when you're in the water.

This matchup is no walk in the park if you don't have experience but i believe that it is in Lucario's favor once the Lucario main knows how to deal with Diddy and his banana's.

60:40/65:35 Lucario's favor.

 

[tedward2000]

After you hit off diddys barrels I swear they home in on you or something.

Oh and Since we so abruptly moved to Diddy, I'll can't keep up and write reviews.
So, we'll see...
-t2

 

[Saki Zatoichi]

They do home in on you. However, the chances of them hitting you are completely random, IIRC. But they have a better chance of hitting you than they do not hitting you.

 

[bludhoundz]

Ban:
Final Destination - Diddy's ground game is too good and it gives him too much space to set up banana's.
Smashville - Pretty much the same as FD but to a lesser extent.

Pick:
Norfair - If this stage is legal, which it most likely isn't, then pick it. Diddy can't do anything with banana's and you live to even higher percents here as long as you can avoid the lava.
Japes - This stage is huge and allows you to live until even higher percents. This just happens to be one of my favorite counter picks so i usually go here lol

Stage's to watch out for:
Delphino - Diddy can wall you with banana's and he can walk you off into the blastzone with banana's. Just something you should be aware of. He can also spike you when you're in the water.

This matchup is no walk in the park if you don't have experience but i believe that it is in Lucario's favor once the Lucario main knows how to deal with Diddy and his banana's.

60:40/65:35 Lucario's favor.

Battlefield is also one of Diddy's best stages. Not to be underestimated, I'd say it's as good as FD or Smashville.

Norfair isn't so great for him, but it is perfectly designed for peanut gun spamming.

Diddy is pretty good on Japes.

I think it is closer than you are putting it -- Diddy's worst matchup is Falco, and that's 65:35. I don't think Lucario really counters Diddy, I think it's fairly close, like 55:45 Lucario.

 

[Samuelson]

Every Diddy main that ive talked to about Lucario says they hate the matchup. I'm not some biased idiot that thinks Lucario has the advantage against everybody. Diddy gets countered by Falco, Wario and Lucario IMO. I think that Wolf can also give Diddy some trouble but i'm not entirely sure. I know that Falco really ****s him up and ive seen Wario do some nasty things and i know all about what Lucario can do to Diddy.

 

[bludhoundz]

Every Diddy main that ive talked to about Lucario says they hate the matchup. I'm not some biased idiot that thinks Lucario has the advantage against everybody. Diddy gets countered by Falco, Wario and Lucario IMO. I think that Wolf can also give Diddy some trouble but i'm not entirely sure. I know that Falco really ****s him up and ive seen Wario do some nasty things and i know all about what Lucario can do to Diddy.

I think it's Lucario's favor as well, I just wouldn't go so far as to say 65:35 -- 60:40 or 55:45 seem to me more what the matchup would be like.

That's just me though.. your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's.

 

[Kitamerby]

I think it's Lucario's favor as well, I just wouldn't go so far as to say 65:35 -- 60:40 or 55:45 seem to me more what the matchup would be like.

That's just me though.. your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's.

M2K's opinion is more valid than a random scrub pulled off the street.

Everyone's opinion is not equally valid. Experience and common sense are factored in as well. <<

 

[Donkey Bong]

solely the fact that diddy wont be able to kill you until your aura is really strong seems to tilt it in Lucario's favor

 

[bludhoundz]

M2K's opinion is more valid than a random scrub pulled off the street.

Everyone's opinion is not equally valid. Experience and common sense are factored in as well. <<

Clearly. But you took a single one of my statements that didn't really have to do with the content of my post a little too literally.

What I meant is that just because I don't cpmpletely agree with him doesn't mean I think he is wrong in thinking what he thinks. He's entitled to his beliefs and they may very well be more right than mine.

Either way back to the matchup...

Lucario clearly beats Diddy in the killing and surviving department. I think Diddy wins in gimps though -- not to say he's going to be getting one really often, but his recovery gives him more options than Lucario's. Before you call me biased or whatever, (I use Lucario as one of my main characters also) think about it. Lucario has 3 options while recovering if forced to use his up b. Wall cling (not even all stages have this option), snap to the ledge, or go to the stage. Diddy can also try to go for the edge, over the stage, or the wall cling, but has a more versatile approach to it considering that he can snap to the ledge with 2 moves, go over with 1 and wall cling with 1 (that's 4 versus 3), not to mention edgehogging him is a little harder since his up b has a hitbox. He can also recover further.

I'm not saying his recovery is tons better, but I think it is better. He also has more projectiles to gimp with; peanuts, bananas (up to 2 at a time), whereas Lucario only has AS and that travels in a straight line so to gimp an opponent below the stage you have to jump off.

Both characters are good comboers. Lucario's fair leads into pretty much any of his other aerials depending on the location (if it's a SH you probably won't use uair). His jab combo has some nice mixups and his dtilt and throws are nice for combos at low %. After he gains some more damage, his comboing deteriorates but instead he just gains more power per move. Diddy I think is more ground combo oriented (he might finish the combo in the air, though), whereas Lucario combos more in the air.

Overall I think Diddy is better at racking up damage, but his damage racking abilities actually maximize Lucario's as well, since he will raise Lucario's % (and have trouble killing him).

I think on the ground Diddy is at an advantage, and in the air Lucario is. I guess the key is to stay aerial as much as possible and fight against Diddy's anti-air game (which is pretty good, but not as good as his ground on ground).

I think a good CP might actually be RC (though Diddy isn't awful on it, it's not an optimal stage for him, especially since you're forcing him into an aerial fight).

I'd say it's a fairly close match a little in Lucario's favor. 60-40ish.

 

[G-Beast]

honestly i find diddy easy to fight on FD, but hell anywere else.. its really not hard to pick up his bananas.. the moment you see him start spawning them, charge right after him but be ready for him to flick one at you.. DT or shield it or say hello to an easy 15-25%

 

[Donkey Bong]

yeah grab those nanas! diddy's game without nannerz is really limited.

 

[Kitamerby]

Clearly. But you took a single one of my statements that didn't really have to do with the content of my post a little too literally.

What I meant is that just because I don't cpmpletely agree with him doesn't mean I think he is wrong in thinking what he thinks. He's entitled to his beliefs and they may very well be more right than mine.

Ah, I see your point. Anyways, nice insights on Diddy Kong and Lucario.

However, I disagree with your statement about Diddy Kong having more options while recovering than Lucario. Lucario outranges Diddy in the air, and can use Aura Sphere while airborne to ward off potential edgeguards. However, Bananas can really screw us up, as they can eat our second jump, which could easily mean death for us if we're forced to use ExtremeSpeed.

On the flip side, Fully Charged Aura Sphere ***** Diddy Kongs who try to recover above stage level, since they have no way to ward it off other than an airdodge, which is why Diddys usually recover low against Lucario. However, this allows us to Dair them for a stagespike or to knock them out of their barrels, both of which are basically death. However, gimping like this is harder than it seems, and will probably rarely be seen.

Bair and Dair also are effective off-stage killers against Diddy Kong, but I'd imagine that Aura Sphere is just plain safer since you can stay on stage while still being able to kill.

Also, Diddy's wall cling shouldn't be considered part of his recovery. His wall jump is vastly inferior to our own and really doesn't cut it when it comes to recovery, as well as the fact that he cannot use it out of his Up B or SideB (but technically he can approach the wall with sideB and cling as it ends), so it's really not anywhere near as useful as Lucario's Wall Cling, which can be done from all angles into his viewtiful wall jump.

I honestly think Lucario has the advantage offstage, as well.

The rest of your post I agree with.

 

[phi1ny3]

If Diddy starts using the nanaz, do what George Bush does best (besides lie):
Matrix!

 

[Samuelson]

Thats too good Phil

 

[Kevvviiinnn]

LOL! Thanks for that, Phil. I'm definitely incorporating that into my repertoire X^)

 

[Fogo]

Snip.

I agree with this, but i don't really see diddy's recovering under lucario, for fear of Dair destroying their recovery. Most diddys that i play try to recover directly to the edge, pretty much parallel to the stage.

 

[Samuelson]

If they're recovering parallel to the stage then you can throw and aura sphere in their stupid face. Monkeys are awesome but i hate them at the same time hahaha

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HmAaJlkQYNM&NR=1

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...let's see what I got on this match-up:

DIDDY KONG-Yea...a nice shade of brown for the monkey. Maybe it should be yellow. Alright anyways, here goes nothing:

BEHAVIOR:-Diddy Kong likes to throw banana peels, as we all know. I don't understand why he's not fat from eating so many in every match, but whatever. Different Diddy's use them in different ways, but for the most part this involves a lot of dribbling, and launching them in your general direction, at which point you will probably be shielding. When they recover they will always try to use the Diddy Hump before their rockets, so if you can abuse that please do. Often times, when they throw a banana at your shield they will rush right in with a dash attack to uptilt combo or something like that, or they'll just grab you. Watch out for that. That's about it.

FUNDAMENTAL MOVES:
Banana: Duh. Does this even need explanation?
Peanut Pop-Gun: As much as I like this thing and as cool as it is, it's not that useful to them. It's very easy to break, you can catch his peanuts(which is just about the coolest thing in the game), and they're really weak in terms of damage and knockback both.
Dash Attack: Again, rather obvious. Banana to dash attack combo all over the place. Lots of hitboxes on this thing too.
Fsmash: For some reason, like Samuelson said, Diddy's make this thing WEAK by the time they really need it. As long as you DI up and towards the stage you should live to very high percents when he tries this on you. This also has two hitboxes, so don't shield one and take the other.
Dsmash: Again, like Samuelson said, by the time they really need this, it's pathetically weak. This is a definite plus for us though, as this move is harder to DI than the fsmash. This will send you straight to the side and down if you're not careful on your DI.
Diddy Hump: Used for recovery all the time. But they will also use it occasionally on the stage, because Diddy will grab you if you are just shielding. They like to use it from the ledge sometimes too.
Rocket Barrel: Duh. The recovery move.

I think that's it for all the fundamental attacks.

LUCARIO STRATEGY:

Alright, my favorite part. So...Diddy Kong starts off the match on the other side of the stage, and what does he do in the first second? Why, he jumps backwards and throws two banana peels into the air, of course! Upon landing, he promptly begins to dribble and launch the bananas at you and in your general direction. At which point you will most likely be shielding, and he will most likely approach you with a dash attack or a grab. Please don't keep your shield up for very long or you're going to get hit. If you roll backwards, you have an advantage, and it will usually force Diddy to retreat for just a second. Don't be idle with that. Approach with a dash attack if you can and steal a banana, or get yourself airborne and do some aerials to approach him. If he shields any of your aerials though, be aware that the instant your attack is over, he's going to either try to grab you or he will launch a banana at you, which will lead to unending pain. In other words, don't get too close. Try jumping to him and then instead of landing and getting punished to no end, double jump and get over his shield and dair him, or something. But always be watching for bananas. Your own grabs will be very useful here if you can get close enough to get one off because it will slow the momentum of the match to the pace you want, if only for a few seconds. Once you get him off the stage...don't let him back on!! That's much easier said than done, of course. Watch for the Diddy Hump going over your head, and if he's too low, watch for the DH followed by the Rocket Barrel. Gimp that Rocket Barrel if you possibly can. Just do a dair. But if you don't drop in time, he'll just fly over you and grab the ledge. Don't use laggy moves like your fsmash very much, because they will punish you for it. Maybe use the up smash when they're above you, because the very long lingering hitboxes will usually get a surprise hit on them. Plus it has a lot of range, so it's hard for them to land and then punish you for it in time. But be sparing please. Something else to consider trying is to DT like mad. I know that sounds preposterous, but you are guaranteed to hit Diddy several times with it because when they are launching bananas all over the place five times per second, they won't be able to react in time to many of them. You won't hit with them all, but you will land several on them if you start doing DT every time he throws a banana at you. Try using reverse DT for approaching too if you can't think of anything else to do. And something else to try doing is just create a wall of pain with your bair when he's off the stage. That will prevent him from Diddy Humping either back onto the stage or you, and the knockback is far better than your fair, so he'll be sent farther off the screen and forced to recover with the barrels, at which point you might be able to attempt a gimp, or just abuse invincibility frames on the ledge and hang there and let him bounce off the side of the stage. That requires good timing though.

Hmmm, I think that's all I had on strategies. If I have anymore, I'll add them in under an edit.

STAGE RECOMMENDATIONS:

Rainbow Cruise: This stage, in my opinion, is thee best stage in the game for Lucario. I have never lost a game on this stage. Ever. Here, Diddy's bananas are next to useless, because you'll very rarely be on the same piece of ground, when he tries to get them out they'll fall into oblivion, and if he does manage to grab one or two of them before they fall into nothingness then he'll launch them at you of course, but if you dodge them then they go flying into the abyss anyways. His Pop-Gun can still hit you, but...it's a gun that shoots peanuts, so who cares? It doesn't hurt you at all on this stage. You can kill him much quicker than on other stages as well, because of the lowish ceiling and the fact that he can't really Diddy Hump effectively to recover. He'll be forced to recover with the Rockets almost all the time on this stage if he falls off a platform.
Jungle Japes: Whoever said this stage was good(Samuelson?) was right. Diddy can control the middle platform pretty well, but that's all he can do. He can't really launch his bananas without launching them OFF the platform either, so he can only dribble them, unless you're right in front of him. The water kind of screws his recovery, because it requires time to charge.
Norfair: Again, whoever said Norfair(Samuelson?) was right. This stage negates his bananas and promotes your aerial game/utilt spam. Plus you will live a VERY long time here. This stage isn't always legal though.
Battlefield: Not nearly as good as the first two or three, but the platforms help you to get out of his banana spam.

Stages to avoid:

Final Destination: This stage is really not a good idea because the banana spam is unbearable. But to compensate when you get Diddy off the stage, he has a long way to come back. I still wouldn't recommend COUNTERING on this stage. Why do that when you've got WAY better options open?
Smashville: Same thing as FD, but the outer edges are much smaller, so it's easier for Diddy to make it back here. Much more difficult of a fight than on FD.
Delfino Plaza: Really, really bad idea. Don't go here.


I think that's all.

MATCH-UP RECOMMENDATION:-Hmmm...I think this really depends on the stage. I'd say it's normally pretty even...say 50:50 or 55:45 Lucario.

Wow...that was really, really long. I haven't done one of these in forever. What do you guys think? Anything wrong or things you might not understand?

I hope that that was helpful Kita. I like this match-up too.

Erich out.

 

[Kappie]

goood stuff erich

 

[Trapt497]

its hard for me to make a decision on what the matchup ranking should be. it really all depends on the stage. diddy ***** lucario on FD, lucario ***** diddy on battlefield

 

[tedward2000]

And Erich just steam rolled us with info.
Anyone else?
XD
-t2

 

[Kevvviiinnn]

His colored font compelled me to read it, yet the bulky paragraphs deterred me from it x_x

 

[MysticKenji]

His colored font compelled me to read it, yet the bulky paragraphs deterred me from it x_x

no johns

 

[DuskMarthWater]

His colored font compelled me to read it, yet the bulky paragraphs deterred me from it x_x

Exactly. You're onto me. Wow...I don't why that made me laugh so much.

Also, I didn't just steamroll you, I Mannheim Steamrolled you! (REALLY bad joke alert)

 

[Lucarioowl]

agreed with most of you diddy is all gimp but the down smash when stored up gets yah hey if anyone is interested this is a match between one of my friends and myself im lucario (hehe) and he is diddy (-_-) tell me what you think i should improve on and he is very good as youll see for yourselves thanks for help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKoOJ9IlbQg&feature=channel

 

[Lucarioowl]

by the way i disagree on jungle japes two reasons clap trap and lucario is a sluggish swimmer it takes a while to get out of the water in my opinion especially if the diddy likes to spike i agree on battle field since the you can get out of the bannana ****

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Dude...use periods and punctuation PLEASE. I get a headache trying to make heads or tails of your posts.

Also...on Japes you shouldn't be in the water very much, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. You should be fighting on the outer platforms, and if you can control the middle one, then stay there instead. But you shouldn't be in the water hardly ever.

 

[Donkey Bong]

if you do get in the water on japes though, dont waste your time trying to jump, just upb immediately to a ledge. upbs will activate in the water

good post erich

 

[Kitamerby]

if you do get in the water on japes though, dont waste your time trying to jump, just upb immediately to a ledge. upbs will activate in the water

good post erich

But jumping is safer and allows you to up B again if you do it early or something. <<

 

[MysticKenji]

if you do get in the water on japes though, dont waste your time trying to jump, just upb immediately to a ledge. upbs will activate in the water

only if you have tap jump on

 

[Samuelson]

First off...Diddy does really well on BF, Luigi's Mansion and apparently Rainbow Cruise (so ive heard, and witnessed). I think Lucario does equally well on BF and Mansion but i have no idea why anybody would think that RC is Lucario's best stage. Can you explain why this stage is good for Lucario at all???

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Ummm, what? I thought you would definitely know that Samuelson. I already explained it though. Lucario is an extremely aerial character, and since there are very few solid places to land on RC he benefits greatly from the stage. His recovery, which is rather laggy and we all know that Extreme Speed does not attack, is also buffed since you only have to use it in a very rare occasion. Yes, Diddy is also very aerial, but he also relies on his stupid bananas a lot, which are completely and utterly useless on RC. And Lucario's air game is slightly better than Diddy's. And Diddy's recovery pretty much SUCKS on RC. Does that help? I've never lost a tourney match on that stage. EVER. And believe me, there are some really good players here in NM.

And I didn't mention Luigi's Mansion as a CP against Diddy. That would definitely NOT be the best stage choice. And yes, Diddy does do fairly well on BF, hence why I stated it's not as good as the other ones to CP him on, but the platforms do keep you out of his banana spam for the most part.

 

[Samuelson]

I still would never take MK, Kirby, GaW, ROB or DDD to RC. Taking characters with better aerials then Lucario is a bad idea then right? So it would be bad to take Marth, Ness or Luigi there also.

What are good characters to bring RC to? Snake? Snake can probably kill Lucario at like 60% on that stage.

Olimar? Olimar mains either love that stage or ban it immediately. Olimar owns on the ship part of the stage and his Usmash and throws kill way earlier.

Rainbow Cruise is a horrible stage for Lucario in my opinion. If it works for you then keep going there i guess lol

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Heh, Okydoke Samuelson! Agree to disagree?

I don't know...I just do really, really well on that stage. Especially in teams. I usually win on that stage in teams by at least 4 stock.

Snake could probably kill you around there on that stage if you're above him. However, if you know how to fight on that stage then you'll know you should always be below him on one of the platforms and then do aerials from below the stage to hit him. On the top part...run around and shoot AS. That's about all you can do against a Snake on that part. It's a much better set-up than something like FD though, where every time you try and approach you get tilted into oblivion. On RC, you can just stay below him a lot of the time and do aerials without much cost to you. But that's against Snake, and this is the Diddy discussion. It ***** Diddy, or at least in my experience it does.

 

[Samuelson]

I think we can move on to the next character now. I think this matchup is 60:40 in Lucario's favor.

 

[Omniomega]

Who is next in the match-up?

 

[Kitamerby]

Ack. Diddy discussion is over already? Bleh, school johns. I'll update stuff soon. Next up is Toon Link.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yay! Caffeinated League of Animated Cartoon Swordsmen Squad! (CLOACSS)