phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I guess my mindgames give a multiplier bonus to my lucario on Norfair then, cuz he always falls sucker to the lava, and I can camp him so well there.
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~Lucario Matchup Chart/Discussion: Rotation Twenty-Four: Meta Knight~
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tedward2000
Smash Champion
K, so for those who have said his aerials suck, your wrong. They are ok and get the job done.
However, His Fair is monstrous.
If Lucario is past 100% and if boswer forward throws, $5 says he's going to go for the kill.
It has a lot of priority and speed. With boswer strength behind it, one has to be very careful.
The down side is, it has dinky range, but that wont stop boswer, since most of his moves are around his arm length.
-t2
However, His Fair is monstrous.
If Lucario is past 100% and if boswer forward throws, $5 says he's going to go for the kill.
It has a lot of priority and speed. With boswer strength behind it, one has to be very careful.
The down side is, it has dinky range, but that wont stop boswer, since most of his moves are around his arm length.
-t2
f-air and u-air are great. the rest suck due to lack of range or lagggg
lucario mains should have no problem dealing with bowser, i believe he is one of our easiest matchups to be honest. our f-air combos destroy him, FPCG ftw, and a very easy character for us to gimp.
Watch out for the gimpyfish combo though, AKA f-smash.
lucario mains should have no problem dealing with bowser, i believe he is one of our easiest matchups to be honest. our f-air combos destroy him, FPCG ftw, and a very easy character for us to gimp.
Watch out for the gimpyfish combo though, AKA f-smash.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Fair is scary, as well as sideB mindgames.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Hell yes we do.
Bowser is impossible to gimp on that stage, and the platform position allows Bowser to fire off aerials and tilts to his liking.
The fortress is not terrible. It has invincibility frames, and a crapload of priority to boot. You can't footstool the start of the fortress, it's impossible. If you're footstooling the end of the Fortress, then the Bowser player isn't recovering correctly.
You'd be surprised at how much harder it is to camp a competent Bowser on Norfair then most people think. Bowser is a camping machine, and the platforms prevent the Aura Sphere spam. Without the worries of projectiles, Bowser does a lot better then people think.
Try gimping him on Norfair.
If you chaingrab him, he'll chaingrab you twice as hard right back. He can even use his Klaw and Dtilt out of a grab. If you're unfamiliar about the Dtilt, let me tell you that it's pretty powerful. As for the Klaw, he can Bowsercide you with it. Or on Norfair, he can pull you into the lava if he's feeling crazy enough.
Lucario's ground game is outclassed by Bowser's ground game, so Lucario is at a disadvantage on the ground once he can't spam Aura Sphere. Lucario's air game is much better than Bowser's, but this isn't much of a problem since Bowser's ground game is better than Lucario's aerial game, so Lucario must be careful. Lucario's approach options are mostly limited to aerials and grabbing since Bowser's Ftilt will out prioritize and out range virtually everything that Lucario has other than Fsmash and Aura Sphere. Bowser can get around Aura Sphere by shield dashing/walking and Infinite Jumping with his Side B.
Lucario has a chain grab on Bowser at low percents, but with proper DI Bowser should be able to escape before 30%, which is not as bad for Bowser as it is for other characters thanks to his heavy weight.
With good DI, Lucario should live to ~120% and Bowser should live to ~160%. Bowser also has a ground release chain grab on Lucario that lasts until Lucario jump breaks or Bowser stops grabbing. Ground releases also lead into inescapable Dtilt that kill ~100% on the ledge of most stages or Side B which is ~19% in addition to whatever pummel damage was accumulated.
Bowser gimps Lucario better than Lucario gimps Bowser. Bowser's Neutral B can gimp or rack up quite a bit of damage [if Lucario tries to DI through it] should Bowser come from below the stage or use his aerials if Lucario comes from the side: His Nair has a long lasting hit box that will hit Lucario if he tries to Up B through it and his multi hit Dair (it's ~11 hits total, I believe) is also long lasting and has a downward trajectory for the last hit. Bowser doesn't have a good answer to Lucario that is recovering high above the stage other than attempting a Uair which, can kill Lucario at ~70%.
Lucario can hit Bowser with Aura Spheres and aerials if Bowser comes in high or from the side, but Lucario doesn't have a real option against Bowser's recovery below the stage other than ledge hogging. Note: Bowser can use his Down B to quickly reach the ledge from above the stage. This can be beat out by properly spaced aerials and Aura Sphere, but it's fast, deals ~20% should you trade hits or miss the timing, and is very safe since it ledge cancels.
Bowser's out of shield options are terrific and can punish virtually anything that Lucario has. If inputted correctly, Up B out of shield has no vulnerable frames before the high priority hit box comes out (it clanks with Snake's Ftilt) Bowser can while using Up B once the hit box comes out, and he can use this to punish spot dodges, rolls, and resetting his position. Neutral B fires flames that are similar to Charizards, but they are wider and hence edge guard Extreme Speed better than Charizard's Neutral B. It is a good idea to DI away and, if the Bowser unwisely keeps up the flame (most good Bowsers will stop their flame once you DI to the end of their range), use Double Team.
Side B is a good move that deals good damage (~19%), can be used to Bowsercide, kills at high percents, and can be used with the Infinite Second Jump Recovery to constantly have a second jump while on stage without needing to land. Note: Bowser can kill with a Bowsercide and survive it on some map transitions such as the Help Ghost on Yoshi's Island or the transitions to a stage with water on Delfino. Down B has two hits when grounded: The rising hit which deals little damage, has almost no knock back growth, and leads into the aerial hit. The aerial Down B is the same as the second hit of the Down B. It deals good damage (20%) and the grounded Down B is one of Bowser's best kill moves and will kill ~80%. The grounded Down B can be air dodged if hit by the rising hit.
Even though most of his moves are kill moves, some Bowser's save their Dtilts as kill moves since it can easily be performed out of a ground release and has a gimpy trajectory that will hurt Lucario on maps that have sides large enough to allow horizontal gimping (if Bowser hits you with a Dtilt at the ledge at ~60%+, landing a Fair will put Lucario too far out to recover). Utilt has very high priority and range and kills about as well as Snake's as Utilt; don't underestimate it and be careful if approaching Bowser from behind, as the hit box covers above and behind him for a ~120 degree angle. Bowser's first jab hit combos into the second hit and both hits deal ~5% for ~10% total. The jab starts fast, and while the range is shorter than his Ftilt, it still rivals many other characters' Ftilts.
Fsmash is easy to avoid but shouldn't be underestimated, as it can definitely be landed. The Fsmash is made of 2 hits: When Bowser begins to move forward (his abdomen area is the hit box) and his head once he begins to slam forward. The head is the main concern for knock back and the tip of the attack (his horns) is a sour spot that has smaller, completely vertical knock back as opposed to the normally diagonal knock back. Usmash hits twice: Upward and then downward. The Usmash kills better than Utilt when sweet spotted, but on the ground Utilt is the bigger killer and doesn't need to be directly under Lucario. The sweet spot is the center spike on Bowser's back at the apex of his jump during the attack. Dsmash is the smash attack that can be expected, as it can punish spot dodges and rolls as well as incorrect recoveries. Dsmash can be DId out of depending on when and where in the Dsmash you were drawn in. The final of the seven hits hold the knock back. All three smashes kill at mid to high percents even with good DI: Fsmash kills at ~80%, sweet spotted Usmash kills at ~100%, and a full Dsmash (all 7 hits) kills at ~110%.
Bowser's aerials are telegraphed, but don't make the mistake that they are easily avoided because of it. Bowser can bait air dodges just like everyone else. Fair is a good move for gimping off stage due to being one of his faster aerials with decent forward range with decent damage. Bair also does decent damage with decent range and is also a kill move. Bair will outright kill at ~90% off the ledge, so be careful when he is jumping backward to you. Uair is a spectacular kill move that will kill Lucario virtually anywhere on most stages from ~80%+. Dair will not be seen very often and can be DId out of. Don't take it lightly, though; it deals 20%+ damage if you don't DI it and has a deceptive landing hit that knocks Lucario far enough back at all percents to make it safe. It also is for shield damage and should be watched out for after a shielded Fsmash. Nair has a long lasting hit box that is Bowser's body during the attack. It doesn't deal as much damage or knock back as his Fair and Bair, but it still works as a good edge guarding aerial.
Lucario does not want to take Bowser to Norfair as the only character that Bowser shouldn't take there is Meta Knight, as that is one Meta Knight's best stages. A good stage against Bowser would be Jungle Japes. The ceiling helps Lucario survive and the terrain is much better for Lucario than it is for Bowser, although it doesn't allow for as much Aura Sphere spamming. A good neutral map is Yoshi's island since Bowser can't gimp you very well thanks to the large area for wall clinging. Dream Cruise is also a good idea since it will keep Bowser in the air with Lucario, although Lucario doesn't really have good options of Aura Sphere. Make sure to ban Corneria, as the survivability should have Lucario living to ~90% and Bowser to ~140% and Bowser's Uair kills at early to mid percents (50%+) which is viable against Lucario when he above Bowser, particularly at the fin.
In my opinion the Bowser-Lucario match up is 40-60 in Lucario's favor.
Lucario has a chain grab on Bowser at low percents, but with proper DI Bowser should be able to escape before 30%, which is not as bad for Bowser as it is for other characters thanks to his heavy weight.
With good DI, Lucario should live to ~120% and Bowser should live to ~160%. Bowser also has a ground release chain grab on Lucario that lasts until Lucario jump breaks or Bowser stops grabbing. Ground releases also lead into inescapable Dtilt that kill ~100% on the ledge of most stages or Side B which is ~19% in addition to whatever pummel damage was accumulated.
Bowser gimps Lucario better than Lucario gimps Bowser. Bowser's Neutral B can gimp or rack up quite a bit of damage [if Lucario tries to DI through it] should Bowser come from below the stage or use his aerials if Lucario comes from the side: His Nair has a long lasting hit box that will hit Lucario if he tries to Up B through it and his multi hit Dair (it's ~11 hits total, I believe) is also long lasting and has a downward trajectory for the last hit. Bowser doesn't have a good answer to Lucario that is recovering high above the stage other than attempting a Uair which, can kill Lucario at ~70%.
Lucario can hit Bowser with Aura Spheres and aerials if Bowser comes in high or from the side, but Lucario doesn't have a real option against Bowser's recovery below the stage other than ledge hogging. Note: Bowser can use his Down B to quickly reach the ledge from above the stage. This can be beat out by properly spaced aerials and Aura Sphere, but it's fast, deals ~20% should you trade hits or miss the timing, and is very safe since it ledge cancels.
Bowser's out of shield options are terrific and can punish virtually anything that Lucario has. If inputted correctly, Up B out of shield has no vulnerable frames before the high priority hit box comes out (it clanks with Snake's Ftilt) Bowser can while using Up B once the hit box comes out, and he can use this to punish spot dodges, rolls, and resetting his position. Neutral B fires flames that are similar to Charizards, but they are wider and hence edge guard Extreme Speed better than Charizard's Neutral B. It is a good idea to DI away and, if the Bowser unwisely keeps up the flame (most good Bowsers will stop their flame once you DI to the end of their range), use Double Team.
Side B is a good move that deals good damage (~19%), can be used to Bowsercide, kills at high percents, and can be used with the Infinite Second Jump Recovery to constantly have a second jump while on stage without needing to land. Note: Bowser can kill with a Bowsercide and survive it on some map transitions such as the Help Ghost on Yoshi's Island or the transitions to a stage with water on Delfino. Down B has two hits when grounded: The rising hit which deals little damage, has almost no knock back growth, and leads into the aerial hit. The aerial Down B is the same as the second hit of the Down B. It deals good damage (20%) and the grounded Down B is one of Bowser's best kill moves and will kill ~80%. The grounded Down B can be air dodged if hit by the rising hit.
Even though most of his moves are kill moves, some Bowser's save their Dtilts as kill moves since it can easily be performed out of a ground release and has a gimpy trajectory that will hurt Lucario on maps that have sides large enough to allow horizontal gimping (if Bowser hits you with a Dtilt at the ledge at ~60%+, landing a Fair will put Lucario too far out to recover). Utilt has very high priority and range and kills about as well as Snake's as Utilt; don't underestimate it and be careful if approaching Bowser from behind, as the hit box covers above and behind him for a ~120 degree angle. Bowser's first jab hit combos into the second hit and both hits deal ~5% for ~10% total. The jab starts fast, and while the range is shorter than his Ftilt, it still rivals many other characters' Ftilts.
Fsmash is easy to avoid but shouldn't be underestimated, as it can definitely be landed. The Fsmash is made of 2 hits: When Bowser begins to move forward (his abdomen area is the hit box) and his head once he begins to slam forward. The head is the main concern for knock back and the tip of the attack (his horns) is a sour spot that has smaller, completely vertical knock back as opposed to the normally diagonal knock back. Usmash hits twice: Upward and then downward. The Usmash kills better than Utilt when sweet spotted, but on the ground Utilt is the bigger killer and doesn't need to be directly under Lucario. The sweet spot is the center spike on Bowser's back at the apex of his jump during the attack. Dsmash is the smash attack that can be expected, as it can punish spot dodges and rolls as well as incorrect recoveries. Dsmash can be DId out of depending on when and where in the Dsmash you were drawn in. The final of the seven hits hold the knock back. All three smashes kill at mid to high percents even with good DI: Fsmash kills at ~80%, sweet spotted Usmash kills at ~100%, and a full Dsmash (all 7 hits) kills at ~110%.
Bowser's aerials are telegraphed, but don't make the mistake that they are easily avoided because of it. Bowser can bait air dodges just like everyone else. Fair is a good move for gimping off stage due to being one of his faster aerials with decent forward range with decent damage. Bair also does decent damage with decent range and is also a kill move. Bair will outright kill at ~90% off the ledge, so be careful when he is jumping backward to you. Uair is a spectacular kill move that will kill Lucario virtually anywhere on most stages from ~80%+. Dair will not be seen very often and can be DId out of. Don't take it lightly, though; it deals 20%+ damage if you don't DI it and has a deceptive landing hit that knocks Lucario far enough back at all percents to make it safe. It also is for shield damage and should be watched out for after a shielded Fsmash. Nair has a long lasting hit box that is Bowser's body during the attack. It doesn't deal as much damage or knock back as his Fair and Bair, but it still works as a good edge guarding aerial.
Lucario does not want to take Bowser to Norfair as the only character that Bowser shouldn't take there is Meta Knight, as that is one Meta Knight's best stages. A good stage against Bowser would be Jungle Japes. The ceiling helps Lucario survive and the terrain is much better for Lucario than it is for Bowser, although it doesn't allow for as much Aura Sphere spamming. A good neutral map is Yoshi's island since Bowser can't gimp you very well thanks to the large area for wall clinging. Dream Cruise is also a good idea since it will keep Bowser in the air with Lucario, although Lucario doesn't really have good options of Aura Sphere. Make sure to ban Corneria, as the survivability should have Lucario living to ~90% and Bowser to ~140% and Bowser's Uair kills at early to mid percents (50%+) which is viable against Lucario when he above Bowser, particularly at the fin.
In my opinion the Bowser-Lucario match up is 40-60 in Lucario's favor.
MrEh
Smash Hero
That's really all that needs to be said.
Browny
Smash Hater
you note that upb Oos clanks with snakes ftilt and can punish anything lucario does. how about his fsmash? there are numerous attacks in the game which clank with snakes tilts, but nothing clanks with the tip of lucarios fsmash, and im wondering whether the lingering fsmash with knock bowser out of his upb
I apologize for that oversight. I was working on several paragraphs simultaneously in the Quick Replay box and didn't read my post or make any edits for clarity. I meant to say that it punishes any attacks that hits Bowser's shield other than Aura Sphere (and I'm not sure whether or not Fsmash). I didn't mention whether or not Ftilts are capable of punishing Lucario's Fsmash because I personally run in for a grab after Lucario Fsmashes me (I find it easy to power shield the Fsmash and grabbing normally leads to more damage than Ftilt). I'll test for what punishes Lucario's tipped Fsmashes out of normal shield to make sure, but I'm pretty sure that Bowser's Ftilt out of shield punishes untipped Fsmashes. That said, I am also pretty sure that Up B out of shield punishes tipped Fsmashes by moving into Lucario with the weak hit, but puts Lucario in an excellent position to Dair with the damage trade in Lucario's favor.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Tipped Fsmashes cannot be punished by a Fortress, unless the Fortress was used out of a running powershield or something.
As for the lingering Fsmash, it would depend on Bowser's position. Tipped? Then yes, it would hit Bowser. If Bowser is close to Lucario, then the Fortress wins due to invincibility frames. (Only on startup though. You can hit the Fortress after startup with no problem.)
Conclusively
Smash Journeyman
GIMPYFISH COMBO. WATCH OUT. He can cancel Aura Spheres with F-Tilt too. =X
Browny
Smash Hater
STOP SAYING GIMPY IMO
this is brawl, not melee >_<
this is brawl, not melee >_<
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Samuelson
Smash Lord
I agree with what everything Hixxy said except for one thing. If your name isn't Meta Knight or ROB you can't gimp Lucario easily. That is a common misconception...It's like saying Toon Link is top tier or something. The idea that Lucairo's recovery is easily gimpable is just really outdated, old and a little bit annoying/frustrating.
Good stuff anyways Boozer mains. I agree that this matchup is in Lucario's favor by just a little.
Good stuff anyways Boozer mains. I agree that this matchup is in Lucario's favor by just a little.
Teh Future
Smash Master
well the thing with bowser gimping people is, when he hits you, you don't get to come back to the stage, you get KO'd... Lucario's recovery isn't easily gimpable, but bowser moves very fast on the ledge, has a ton of range, a ton of priority, and a ton of power. His ledge game is his best aspect imo, and basically everyone underestimates it.
try to grab the ledge- baired.
if we're ledge hogging and you try to go above, we hit jump and basically teleport there for an upair /bair whatever.
If we're above to ledge- downB = no ledge for you.
wherever bowser is he limits your options then if he can predict where you are going you will die.
try to grab the ledge- baired.
if we're ledge hogging and you try to go above, we hit jump and basically teleport there for an upair /bair whatever.
If we're above to ledge- downB = no ledge for you.
wherever bowser is he limits your options then if he can predict where you are going you will die.
Browny
Smash Hater
and thats why Aura Sphere is one of the best projectiles in the game
^^no no no thats not true. Lucario f-air gimps boozer all day long and bowser is too laggy to pull something like a gimp off. A good one could, but honestly? Its not going to happen very often. Just because lucario is floaty and has a weak up-b DOES NOT MEAN that he is automatically gimpable, especially with a laggy and fast falling character like bowser. Agreeing with sam on this one, bowser doesn't gimp lucario better than vise versa. Not many characters outside of meta knight or ROB or de3 can gimp us that easily.
By the way, thanks so much for your contributions to this thread, hixxy. Your wall of text was very in depth and im thankful that you are taking this very seriously
..omniomega, i would guess around ~15-20% bowser could get out. maybe earlier with some well-timed DI.
By the way, thanks so much for your contributions to this thread, hixxy. Your wall of text was very in depth and im thankful that you are taking this very seriously
..omniomega, i would guess around ~15-20% bowser could get out. maybe earlier with some well-timed DI.
Lucario can't Fair Bowser all day, because Bowser's Up B has invincibility frames and will go through Fair anyways. The only way that Lucario should be gimping Bowser is Aura Sphere away from the stage and Dairing Bowser if he messes up the timing or is far away enough to barely reach the ledge. Neither of them gimp each other well, but Bowser has more options than Lucario does, which is why I say that Bowser gimps Lucario more. Understand that I am not saying that Bowser easily gimps Lucario.
By the way, Gimpyfish doesn't play Brawl Bowser. The good tournament placing Bowsers that I know of are Kish^2, Sliq, and Vex Kasrani.
By the way, Gimpyfish doesn't play Brawl Bowser. The good tournament placing Bowsers that I know of are Kish^2, Sliq, and Vex Kasrani.
alright i understand the last sentence. i dont understand your claim that bowser has more gimping options than lucario. i cant think of anything else as reliable as f-air. ...b-air maybe?..no, too much lag IMO. which of bowser's moves were you refering to?
and i figure your right about bowser's up b being able to go through some f-airs, but if lucario gimps bowser with a f-air, at a low percent bowser can easily get hit by a few more. i have pulled off several f-air gimps, in which bowser cant return to the stage, after hitting him off while he was at a low percent. i dont think bowser can escape this every time. hit him off stage > f-air > f-air > (maybe one more fair) > edgehog.
EDIT: yeah, gimpy plays sheik now
and i figure your right about bowser's up b being able to go through some f-airs, but if lucario gimps bowser with a f-air, at a low percent bowser can easily get hit by a few more. i have pulled off several f-air gimps, in which bowser cant return to the stage, after hitting him off while he was at a low percent. i dont think bowser can escape this every time. hit him off stage > f-air > f-air > (maybe one more fair) > edgehog.
EDIT: yeah, gimpy plays sheik now
Bowser's aerials don't have a great deal of start up lag (Fair, Bair, and Nair come out faster than Bowser's Ftilt), and ending lag doesn't mean much unless the aerial is whiffed (or it's a fast falled Dair or Bair). Bair outright kills off stage at mid-high percents and Lucario probably isn't coming back if it's landed at mid percents on a stage with large sides, like Final Destination. Fair is decent speed and Bowser can --depending on the distance-- use two Fairs or Nairs below the stage before using Up B to recover. Assuming that Lucario is knocked out of Ftilt range, Bowser's Neutral B should catch Lucario before he makes it back to the stage unless it's an anything-can-happen situation, especially if Lucario has used his double jump and can't go over the flames, although a good Lucario shouldn't be gimped by it. In reference to chaining Fairs off stage, if Bowser has 1 frame of control, he can escape the attack chain (think Marth's Up B with horizontal movement). Good Bowsers shouldn't be gimped at low percents.
why would you use bair off stage? the ending lag is too long for me to ever recover from it.
and on your second to last sentence, i dont think comparing your up b to marths is a good analogy..marths goes so fast its like he disappears. i suppose ill go see how well bowser actually can get out of it next time i play.
sorry to argue back and forth with you, im not fighting or trying to start a flame war.
and on your second to last sentence, i dont think comparing your up b to marths is a good analogy..marths goes so fast its like he disappears. i suppose ill go see how well bowser actually can get out of it next time i play.
sorry to argue back and forth with you, im not fighting or trying to start a flame war.
I didn't take it as flaming at all. It's discussion between the Bowser and Lucario boards on a match up. The Lucario boards are much politer than some other boards when discussing Bowser.
I personally don't have any problems using Bair off stage, although it requires his double jump to recover if used below stage. It's definitely a high reward move, though, as landing a Bair off stage normally means that Lucario is at a high enough percent to not make it back. The reason that I compared Bowser's Up B to Marth's Up B is because they both have invincibility on frames 1-5, but Marth's Up B's hit box comes out on frame 5 while ours comes out on frame 6. Ours also has more priority, though. I see what you mean though, and it was a bad analogy in terms of when you can punish him. My main point was that when the hit box comes out, you'll probably get hit if you're trying to gimp Bowser.
I personally don't have any problems using Bair off stage, although it requires his double jump to recover if used below stage. It's definitely a high reward move, though, as landing a Bair off stage normally means that Lucario is at a high enough percent to not make it back. The reason that I compared Bowser's Up B to Marth's Up B is because they both have invincibility on frames 1-5, but Marth's Up B's hit box comes out on frame 5 while ours comes out on frame 6. Ours also has more priority, though. I see what you mean though, and it was a bad analogy in terms of when you can punish him. My main point was that when the hit box comes out, you'll probably get hit if you're trying to gimp Bowser.
ok, i see what you mean. cool beans. you are really good at proving your point and explaining it xD
haha sometimes we are very polite, but sometimes we havent been so polite in the past. like, for example, when the sonic boards made a matchup thread lol. that went pretty bad. i wasnt involved though, lol.
haha sometimes we are very polite, but sometimes we havent been so polite in the past. like, for example, when the sonic boards made a matchup thread lol. that went pretty bad. i wasnt involved though, lol.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Note to Lucario's:
Dont try to gimp Boswer. Various reasons why.
Note to Boswer's:
Dont try to gimp Lucario. Various reasons why.
Oh and Hixxy,
What you said earlier about flame catching Lucario before he makes it back to the stage, will not happen. But... Keep the flame going and we will get hit when at the ledge. So in all in all, Lucario will have to take a few flames to the face, but with proper DI we can get above and either Fair or Dair, to get the match rolling again.
earily DT is not a good option VS Flame near a ledge. BAS does nothing VS flame near an edge.
If you have a AS half to fully charged, then fire it off at the ledgeguarding monster, an make for a quick recovery.
A guarding Boswer, is not a fun one.
-t2
Dont try to gimp Boswer. Various reasons why.
Note to Boswer's:
Dont try to gimp Lucario. Various reasons why.
Oh and Hixxy,
What you said earlier about flame catching Lucario before he makes it back to the stage, will not happen. But... Keep the flame going and we will get hit when at the ledge. So in all in all, Lucario will have to take a few flames to the face, but with proper DI we can get above and either Fair or Dair, to get the match rolling again.
earily DT is not a good option VS Flame near a ledge. BAS does nothing VS flame near an edge.
If you have a AS half to fully charged, then fire it off at the ledgeguarding monster, an make for a quick recovery.
A guarding Boswer, is not a fun one.
-t2
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Well, Hixxy explained most of those reasons for Lucario gimping boswer.
So, Time to vice versa.
Reasons for Boswer to not Gimp Lucario:
1. Bair will stage spike
2. Double jump
3. ES curves, and wall clings
2. Double jump
5. AS can hit a hanging boswer
6. Majority of the time Lucario wont even need to use his ES to recover.
7. Nobody likes a gimper
8. Lucario can wall cling the tiniest of pixels, aka you can be ledge hoggin, and lucario can wall ling the bit of ledge you nose doesnt cover.
Now someone feel free to argue with me about these reasons and give scenarios that are crafted to perfectly counter these options, so then I too can counter act with my own perfect examples to counteract that. <---What happens in other boards, no lies XD
Aka, you can still gimp. Just be careful, lucario's and Boswers alike.
-t2
So, Time to vice versa.
Reasons for Boswer to not Gimp Lucario:
1. Bair will stage spike
2. Double jump
3. ES curves, and wall clings
2. Double jump
5. AS can hit a hanging boswer
6. Majority of the time Lucario wont even need to use his ES to recover.
7. Nobody likes a gimper
8. Lucario can wall cling the tiniest of pixels, aka you can be ledge hoggin, and lucario can wall ling the bit of ledge you nose doesnt cover.
Now someone feel free to argue with me about these reasons and give scenarios that are crafted to perfectly counter these options, so then I too can counter act with my own perfect examples to counteract that. <---What happens in other boards, no lies XD
Aka, you can still gimp. Just be careful, lucario's and Boswers alike.
-t2
Browny
Smash Hater
lol @ not trying to start a flame war... between bowser and lucario fire is an integral part of the matchup!
Samuelson
Smash Lord
Well once Boozer does his second jump then one Fair from Lucario will be his doom if he's offstage. Lucario will get back to the stage without doing his second jump most of the time so this isn't really an issue or is he does do his second jump then he will most likely land somewhere in the middle of the stage NOT by the ledge. This is how it is for almost every other character so why isn't it like this for the Booze Cruise?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Did he lose his 2nd jump?
Because the Fortress is a downright outrageous move. The invincibility frames and priority cut through a lot of things. While Bowser is gimptastic most of the time, a smart Bowser player is difficult to gimp simply because they know when and where to use the Fortress.
MAJOR props to hixxi for this week.
One thing I wanted to add is, tedward's whole list comes down to: lucario can wallcling, and reach ledge safe without even using ExtremeSpeed.
That in mind Bowser can always attempt to gimp (the bairs offstage can be very dangerous), because unless Bowser runs out of invincibility frames and Lucario back airs, it's pretty much a win win situation for Bowser.
One thing I wanted to add is, tedward's whole list comes down to: lucario can wallcling, and reach ledge safe without even using ExtremeSpeed.
That in mind Bowser can always attempt to gimp (the bairs offstage can be very dangerous), because unless Bowser runs out of invincibility frames and Lucario back airs, it's pretty much a win win situation for Bowser.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Bowser can run off the ledge and use a Bair.
Unlikely to happen, but I still do it once in a while to an unsuspecting Lucario or Diddy.
dguy6789
Smash Lord
People who have never been to a tournament before in their life (wifi does not count) should not post in this thread at all. You know who you are.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
So Bowsers Up B gets him out of every situation that puts him in danger. He also has chain grabs that can lead to KO's at around 100% everytime. Why do you guys say that this matchup is in Lucario's favor. All you've done is tell us how good Bowser is in this matchup but you still say it's in Lucario's favor. It makes no sense to me.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Because the Lucario portion is globally known.
So theres no reason to bring it up.
Nope not at all........
-t2
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
K, 3 pages late, but my response to whoever said something about my post.
I meant, put the visual order in tier list order instead of alphabetical. That way you can see all of the threats in one place. I like how we're going through the matchups now. Like you said, we won't get bored >_>
Also, what I mean about Bowser's recovery is that it's pretty poor vertically. You unlike most other characters, he can't survive a fair chain off the edge (I would say weak spike, but Lucario doesn't have one) even with the use of his second jump. Obviously, it's great otherwise. Just saying, kinda like Peach.
It's in Lucario's favor cause our fire his blue and theirs is red =P
Oh and which one wins, Dair or Uair? (our dair obviously)
I meant, put the visual order in tier list order instead of alphabetical. That way you can see all of the threats in one place. I like how we're going through the matchups now. Like you said, we won't get bored >_>
Also, what I mean about Bowser's recovery is that it's pretty poor vertically. You unlike most other characters, he can't survive a fair chain off the edge (I would say weak spike, but Lucario doesn't have one) even with the use of his second jump. Obviously, it's great otherwise. Just saying, kinda like Peach.
It's in Lucario's favor cause our fire his blue and theirs is red =P
Oh and which one wins, Dair or Uair? (our dair obviously)
Next up is Diddy Kong.
Anyways, the reason I haven't been updating is school johns. I'll have a massive exportfest in a week or two once winter break starts. So yeah, bear with these slow, export-less times for now plz. D:
Anyways, I hear AlphaZealot himself claims that Diddy Kong cannot beat a good Lucario. I am extremely interested in this matchup, myself.
Anyways, the reason I haven't been updating is school johns. I'll have a massive exportfest in a week or two once winter break starts. So yeah, bear with these slow, export-less times for now plz. D:
Anyways, I hear AlphaZealot himself claims that Diddy Kong cannot beat a good Lucario. I am extremely interested in this matchup, myself.
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