~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Milln]

Haha, it was at the Penny Arcade Expo (PAX) tournament...I glide tossed a stitchface up, and missed the Zelda player (who had 150%). I didn't actually realize it was a stitchface, and just thought it was a regular turnip.

Forgetting about this turnip that is now way up in the air, I do a sliding usmash as the Zelda player falls. It sweetspots. Peach's usmash will kill Zelda at ~85% sweetspotted- at 150% she just rockets straight up at crazy speeds.

Meanwhile, my forgotten stitchface turnip is in the air near the top of the screen at the peak of the throw. Zelda slams into it at mach 5, making a 90-degree turn (stitchface does 30% damage with crazy high knockback) and flying off the left side of the screen to her death.

Awesome. I can imagine this and it is beautiful.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

There's a reason I didn't mention Japes haha. It is a good Lucario stage against people who are likely to kill him vertically or who get messed with by the water. Peach is neither.

I don't see where Luigi's Mansion benefits her, though. Just from personal experience (Bad Stauffy!) I know I've always had Peach ban Luigi's against me. I could easily be wrong, I just want someone who's played on it to tell me why.

Couldn't tell you anything about Hanenbow. I didn't think that was legal anywhere. >>

 

[deepseadiva]

Golf club MAYBE- if the Lucario is spacing to tip you with the fsmash I'm not sure if it would hit. But that's a 1/3 chance, and you WON'T be spacing for the golf club if you happen to get it.

It's safe to say that unless you get really lucky, Lucario's fsmash will consistently beat Peach's.

O_O

Remember Villi's Range thing awhile back? LOOK: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5230765&postcount=1

Our jab reaches as far as the club - the second one anyway. Tell me it's fast enough to beat it.

I knew jabs where the key to this matchup...

 

[Timbers]

(lol@Ness being Lucario advantage...what a joke) *runs*

(lol@ness...period)

And Peach's fair outranges everything in Lucario's arsenal.

Bair outranges the fair, actually. Bair has considerable startup on it though, so using it to approach a floating Peach isn't a good idea.

I have argued for one claim: Lucario is easy to gimp (and my comment on the fsmash - read below). Maybe now after other Peaches have discussed, and agreed with, the same you'll stop attacking my credibility?

Well you haven't said anything that's been agreed on by other Peach players yet, soo...

Ah yes... the fmash. Doesn't the golf club have enough range for it though (even AT the tip)? Admittedly it's random chance of missing with a racket or pan, and I agree that we should avoid it like hell, but in the early percents risks make the crowd cheer.

Club does not outrange Luc fsmash.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Lol Luc's Fsmash outranges Peach's club and her jabs by a considerable amount. It only takes a second in training mode.

 

[deepseadiva]

Well you haven't said anything that's been agreed on by other Peach players yet, soo...

Honestly, can you read?

I have said edgeguarding, and ultimately gimping Lucario is easy:

+ Gimps. I seriously rely on gimps. It's not unusual for me to land at least one gimp every match.

So, you just used your second jump and I glide tossed a turnip at you accurately. Now I'm on the ledge, and the turnip is flying at you. What do you do?

1) You get hit. You don't make it to the ledge, and have to up-B.

2) You attack, catching the turnip.

3) You airdodge, missing the turnip.

4) You airdodge, catching the turnip.

Firstly, the airdodges might cause you to miss the ledge itself, forcing you to up-B just like in scenario 1. Assuming they don't, though, and that the Peach player is skilled- as you come out of the airdodge (or are in the lag from your attack), in scenario's 2, 3, and 4, you will get hit by a Peach fair and die, or possibly by nair or bair depending on a number of factors. Regardless, you won't make it back to the stage.

Option 1 gives the Peach a good shot at edgehogging you.

FYI- Peach is the best edgehogger in the game, due to the ability she has of being able to float against the ledge and release when she wants to grab, gaining invulnerability frames precisely when she wants them. Granted, that's unnecessary for Lucario's up-B, but if Lucario's trying to throw an aura sphere at you or tip you with a uair as he's falling, you can release and get the invulnerability frames, and then just hold the ledge.

Trust me, Peach edgeguards Lucario really well. Throw turnip and chase it out with an attack, Lucario can't deal with both and then make it back to the stage without being hogged, at least easily.

I still do get gimp kills on Lucario very often, usually once per match, though not always. Not like Olimar and Link who I usually gimp for every kill with Peach's float tricks and turnips. xD

I don't throw turnips up in the air for kicks and giggles, I do it to make a wall of projectiles against slow fallers. Then those players will either have the maneuver to avoid a turnip or get hit.

Either way I've placed you in a bad position. It's escapable, but still an advantage I'll gladly take.

Your slow falling speed makes turnip-trapping you into coming down a certain way easier, not harder. That's why we throw turnips upwards, silly. For every dair stall you do, it kills your momentum and we can just pull another and throw it upwards.

This isn't some sort of infallable strategy but it is great pressure against your recovery.

Just like how you can aura-sphere some people's recoveries to force them to say, not illusion towards the edge? It doesn't auto-gimp, it just helps move people in the direction you want them.

Peach gimps Lucario. Can we get past this?

Club does not outrange Luc fsmash.

WHA? Noz...

 

[Timbers]

Honestly, can you read?

I have said edgeguarding, and ultimately gimping Lucario is easy:

Peach gimps Lucario. Can we get past this?

Recovery gimping? no. Praxis already stated that most of his gimps are due to sending Luc to the blastzone with fairs and turnip traps. All i've heard from you is how easy it is to gimp Luc's recovery because it you can easily edgehog him after gimping with just turnips.

WHA? Noz...

WHA? Yez...

Seriously I'd make a video for you but I don't have my wii with me right now. Is it so difficult for you to check this in training mode or something.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

training mode...

 

[Praxis]

There's a reason I didn't mention Japes haha. It is a good Lucario stage against people who are likely to kill him vertically or who get messed with by the water. Peach is neither.

I don't see where Luigi's Mansion benefits her, though. Just from personal experience (Bad Stauffy!) I know I've always had Peach ban Luigi's against me. I could easily be wrong, I just want someone who's played on it to tell me why.

Couldn't tell you anything about Hanenbow. I didn't think that was legal anywhere. >>

I ban Luigi's Mansion because I don't know how to play it- because WA has it illegal. However, several of the best Peaches (including Edrees, who is easily the best) insist that it is a godly Peach stage.

Seems Peach's utilt's godly priority kills everyone and destroys the wall really fast, and her ftilt can lock you in for several hits, and she can live a lot longer than usual. And Dair combos become even more vicious because they bounce you off the ceiling.

It just depends on whether or not the Peach player knows what they're doing.

Orpheon's probably the best bet, since Peach relies on sweetspotting the ledge out of up-B (that one ledge can mess her up) and you have an extra recovery option when you grab the wall.

 

[DeadlyTurnip]

WHA? Yez...

Seriously I'd make a video for you but I don't have my wii with me right now. Is it so difficult for you to check this in training mode or something.

Just to make the case stronger.

Yes. Me and Dj_pwn tested it a little while ago. There is no way Peach's has more range.

 

[Timbers]

I've personally never played a Peach on Mansion, but I can definitely see where this is coming from. Peach can easily float at the top of the ceiling and right over our spacing tools that are usually so dear to us on this stage.

It'd be interesting to see if the ceiling is low enough to force Peach into our utilted ftilt range though. If someone can test that, I'd be more than thankful.

Regardless, I can see how more harassment she can do to Luc, even if he does tech the ceiling. Float seems to good here.

Orpheon's probably the best bet, since Peach relies on sweetspotting the ledge out of up-B (that one ledge can mess her up) and you have an extra recovery option when you grab the wall.

This and FD is where I'll take a Peach to, and yes, frigate is a good stage for Luc in this match. The only thing to be aware of as Lucario is the second portion of this stage, where Peach can pressure you while you're under the platform pretty **** well.

 

[deepseadiva]

Recovery gimping? no. Praxis already stated that most of his gimps are due to sending Luc to the blastzone with fairs and turnip traps. All i've heard from you is how easy it is to gimp Luc's recovery because it you can easily edgehog him after gimping with just turnips.

Dying from not reaching the ledge is the same as dying from not reaching the ledge. Forgive me if I omitted "oh, and don't forget that Peach can still move and attack after using a turnip, that's a big thing people look over."

Is it so difficult for you to check this in training mode or something.

I could spin you a tale revolving around a terrible accident involving a steak, some bread, a Magikarp, and the death of two of my friends as to why I cannot reach my Wii at the moment.

But this is the Internet and so I can just say: yes, yes it is.

 

[Timbers]

Even after you've had two peaches in here saying you're wrong, and the entire Luc board saying you're wrong, you're going to keep pushing it huh?

Alright keep digging your own grave.

Dying from not reaching the ledge is the same as dying from not reaching the ledge. Forgive me if I omitted "oh, and don't forget that Peach can still move and attack after using a turnip, that's a big thing people look over."

You've argued with me about it even after I agreed with GEA and Peach's very good edgeguard game, and since Luc being easy to edgehog is the only thing you've been emphasizing since you've walked in here, I'm going to put my money down on the fact that you're trying to cover your false assumptions. If you don't send Luc to the blastzone, he's making it back.

 

[Praxis]

Bair outranges the fair, actually. Bair has considerable startup on it though, so using it to approach a floating Peach isn't a good idea.

I don't believe this is correct. The ranges are CLOSE, but Peach's fair has longer range. If the Peach is backing up and c-sticking forwards, her fair will hit first.

 

[LuigiKing]

Awesome. I can imagine this and it is beautiful.

I feel like I'm lurking, but I was there, and it was sooooo coooooool... By the way, Praxis took me out of the PAX tournament You shouldn't listen to his advice because I'm mad. Jungle Japes ***** me.

 

[Timbers]

I don't believe this is correct. The ranges are CLOSE, but Peach's fair has longer range. If the Peach is backing up and c-sticking forwards, her fair will hit first.

You're more than welcome to check.

Luc's bair does outrange it though.

Nothing to get worked up over, the bair still has startup and has some noticeable landing lag. It's not something that will be used to counter Peach's airgame. At most it'll be used to bait.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

It'd be interesting to see if the ceiling is low enough to force Peach into our utilted ftilt range though. If someone can test that, I'd be more than thankful.

In the name of science! *Runs off*

*Comes back 5 minutes later* That'd be a yes. It's low enough.

Also, Meno, you probably shouldn't state something as fact when you don't know. It's a bad habit.

 

[Gea]

I lol'd at our fsmash beating yours.

 

[Timbers]

In the name of science! *Runs off*

*Comes back 5 minutes later* That'd be a yes. It's low enough.

Thanks Stauffy.

Despite that, I still think this might be a Peach dominant stage. Consider she won't be killing you until high percents anyways, and the only lower percent kills she'll have are on the edges, the ceilings just don't seem like they'll help much.

It'll still be interesting to play around with this.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ive read the majority of this debate and since i dont come here often id like to bring up something special that people arent talking about.

the last time i was in the lucario boards, i read a thread about the range of FP. it was stated that the horizontal range was very narrow and the verticle range was much bigger than it appeared. big enough to catch a peach floating above the lucarios head, i believe.

I tried this in like 2 matches, and it seems that pulling out a side b when the peach looks like she will go for a floated f-air, the grab will consistently connect and blow her away. its faster than the forward air as well, so even though i dont play many good peaches, i can usually have my way with them because this move not only throws off the peachs game, but it seems to effectively shut down down air and forward air, which looks like its a main staple of peach play.

 

[Timbers]

Fair is hella disjointed, you shouldn't be able to grab her out of that. Dair sounds interesting though. Not something that should or could be spammed (as it could be easily baited and punished with an fair) but it's worth looking into.

 

[deepseadiva]

Alright keep digging your own grave.

Fine. My grave of BEING RIGHT!

So, you just used your second jump and I glide tossed a turnip at you accurately. Now I'm on the ledge, and the turnip is flying at you. What do you do?

1) You get hit. You don't make it to the ledge, and have to up-B.

2) You attack, catching the turnip.

3) You airdodge, missing the turnip.

4) You airdodge, catching the turnip.

Option 1 gives the Peach a good shot at edgehogging you.

Scenario one - Praxis explains the others scenario's consequences, but scenario one is all I'm saying.

 

[Timbers]

upB has tons of range on it. If you're forcing Luc to uB, it's to take advantage of the startup on his uB to send him to the blastzone with an fair or something. Just holding onto the ledge and Luc will make his merry way back onto the stage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If stages are on the menu, If I were Lucario I'd take Peach to Final Destination or Smashville. If I were Peach I'd try Luigi's Mansion.

I don't think either party wants to touch Lylat Cruiser or Corneria, Lylat will screw with Peach's float and Lucario's Aura Spheres are going to be canceled by the stage (Assuming the tilting of course).

Corneria isn;t that good for either character, both are light a floaty. Corneria has a low ceiling, there is no advantage but the ow ceiling is going to be a turn off for either party.

 

[deepseadiva]

upB has tons of range on it. If you're forcing Luc to uB, it's to take advantage of the startup on his uB to send him to the blastzone with an fair or something. Just holding onto the ledge and Luc will make his merry way back onto the stage.

The fair option is probably the most effective way to capitalize, but simply throwing and hogging is still very viable. What you're arguing now is distance, which is relative to every situation; Lucario has the range, as does any character with an upb that moves them, but if he's that tiny bit short - he's dead.

 

[Timbers]

Am just saying that he's going to always be able to recovery onto the stage due to his range, if all you're hitting him with are turnips (unless he's at like 150% and you've pulled several good turnips in succession)

His upB not doing damage has never been a problem. Frankly, the only thing wrong with it is that if someone's on the ledge it treats it as a ceiling and he falls. No this isn't in relation to damage. Instead of being able to just fly right through the ledge like other recoveries (despite being edgehogged by invincibility), he has to curve around it, taking more time to recover than (some) recoveries, which can be fatal depending on the character he's up against. Wario, for example, can ledgehop wafts or ff uairs on Luc if he's been forced into landing in a crummy spot onstage. The uB not doing damage because he was too far to reach the ledge, has never been a problem. The uB not being able to go through ledges is the problem, and it's a very painful problem about his uB, I'll admit. If his uB could go through ledges, he'd be great. It wouldn't matter if he did damage or not, because the range on his uB is so great that it really doesn't matter. Having to curve the uB around ledges is what makes it such a pain in the ***, because of what waits onstage.

I'll reiterate, the only things that will show the weakness in Lucario's uB having no damage are effective semispikes, and even then I don't recall too many incidents where Luc just barely reaches the ledge, and if he had done damage that he'd recover. He's either too far away from the ledge due to the semispike/ledgespike where not even his tremendous sweetspot would save him, or he's close enough where he can land onstage. There's no point denying that there are stocks lost where damage would make the difference, but I'd argue that as many times as that scenario has happened, I've already hogged a marth/gaw/kirby/space animal to invincibility frames.

I don't know why you continue to try hammering this. I've already stated how many times that fair is lethal to Luc's recovery. Going into things you clearly have no clue about is just hurting your credibility severely.

 

[Browny]

so this is going nowhere fast. throw-edgehog is a horrible idea. it should be natural for all players to DI every throw upwards anyway (except maybe ness bthrow) and lucario will be able to second jump and float back every time without ever needing to use his up-b.

i havent had enough experience with peach mains who are on my level so I got no idea on the balance of this matchup, but I think its about time those that do sort it out and get to a new character :/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

so this is going nowhere fast. throw-edgehog is a horrible idea. it should be natural for all players to DI every throw upwards anyway (except maybe ness bthrow) and lucario will be able to second jump and float back every time without ever needing to use his up-b.

i havent had enough experience with peach mains who are on my level so I got no idea on the balance of this matchup, but I think its about time those that do sort it out and get to a new character :/

Considering everything that has been said and done it seems to be 50:50, if not then 55:45 in Lucario's favor.

 

[IceDX]

50/50 sound bout right...

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Meno...both of you have good and bad points. Timbers, however, freely stated earlier that he knows little about this match-up, so you're more at fault. I haven't really kept up with too much in this argument, because I too know very little about this match-up, but I do know that a turnip is not going to cause a gimp on Lucario. Nope.

 

[deepseadiva]

Am just saying that he's going to always be able to recovery onto the stage due to his range, if all you're hitting him with are turnips

Heh, so I suppose we should wrap it up.

Turnips gimping Lucario.

It's not going to happen often due to the fact Peach has difficulty placing Lucario in positions where she can gimp him.

I'll agree with that.

But, let's assume Lucario is in that position. That incredibly rare position underneath the stage Peach so craves, that position where Lucario needs that ledgesnap. It's very easy for Peach to simply force Extreme Speed out and hog that edge.

Good? Adequate? Agree to disagree?

 

[Browny]

@ above

lucario will be caught that far below the stage as often as peach will be facing backwards and her upb doesnt ledgesnap and falls to her doom.

 

[Timbers]

Meno...both of you have good and bad points. Timbers, however, freely stated earlier that he knows little about this match-up, so you're more at fault. I haven't really kept up with too much in this argument, because I too know very little about this match-up, but I do know that a turnip is not going to cause a gimp on Lucario. Nope.

Yes, I know little about the matchup, which is why I haven't been talking about the matchup. I've been talking about Luc's recovery, which I know what and what can not gimp a Lucario.

But, let's assume Lucario is in that position. That incredibly rare position underneath the stage Peach so craves, that position where Lucario needs that ledgesnap. It's very easy for Peach to simply force Extreme Speed out and hog that edge.

Good? Adequate? Agree to disagree?

And then this goes back to the Lucario has to screw up before Peach can gimp with turnips, which is player error and not character error.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

About peach's floating. I've played two very good peaches and they usually win. Biggest things are Fair and Dair out of floating. It would seem as though Utilt may be an important move for this match up. Also Luc's ability to grab with his ears. A lot of peaches will Fair you, and if you shield it they will immediately jab upon landing. This messes up a out of shield actions unless you time them well.

What should we do about Dair? I theorize Utilt or maybe grab.

Will her Uair beat our Dair?

 

[Samuelson]

If a Peach is floating i just SH BAS or AS and when they fall i Fsmash them. It seems to work pretty well for me.

 

[Timbers]

Careful not to do that if they're too close. Peach's fair outprioritizes like all auraspheres lol.

 

[jehonaker]

About peach's floating. I've played two very good peaches and they usually win. Biggest things are Fair and Dair out of floating. It would seem as though Utilt may be an important move for this match up. Also Luc's ability to grab with his ears. A lot of peaches will Fair you, and if you shield it they will immediately jab upon landing. This messes up a out of shield actions unless you time them well.

What should we do about Dair? I theorize Utilt or maybe grab.

Will her Uair beat our Dair?

I'd say that upwards smash would counter her downwards aerial a bit better than the upwards tilt. The former has the large aura flare and mostly cooldown lag. The latter might work, but probably not as well.

Her upwards aerial loses to Luke's downwards aerial. The Aura disjoint fixes that problem.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I'd say that upwards smash would counter her downwards aerial a bit better than the upwards tilt. The former has the large aura flare and mostly cooldown lag. The latter might work, but probably not as well.

Her upwards aerial loses to Luke's downwards aerial. The Aura disjoint fixes that problem.

Utilt has more sideways range. Peach comes in with Dair from the side. Then again Usmash does have a the longest lingering hitbox ya ever did see.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Usmash is too slooooow.

 

[Samuelson]

Careful not to do that if they're too close. Peach's fair outprioritizes like all auraspheres lol.

Yeah, i try not to do that if i'm too close. I'm not stupid Timbers geeeze, i'm a big boy now!