~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Timbers]

Yeah, ROB shuts down your killers very well. Your bair is usually too slow to actually kill with, and puts yourself in danger if ROB attempts to use his bair or nair at the same time...as those aerials hurt a lot. His ftilt shuts down your fsmash surprisingly well.

Basically, you gotta bait ROB to kill ROB. If he's trying to approach with a nair or fair or something, stutterstep away from him and fsmash. Try to anticipate when he uses the gyro and laser, and counteract with a full aurasphere. It might be difficult to kill ROB, but just know the same thing going on in that ROB's head is how hard it is to kill Lucario. ROB's killers=nair, bair, and fsmash. The fsmash has considerable startup, and it's range is probably the same as your ftilt. Nair has a stupidly large hitbox, but it's very hard for ROB to actually land this on Lucario. ROB's bair is annoying. It doesn't really harbor enough killpower to send you to the blastzone until 140-150%, but it's still lame. Unpunishable autospacer and very low startup lag given it's properties.

Lucario needs to stay aggressive in the air. If he's trying to avoid the killers, he's going to get killed. Luc has so many options to get around ROB's air game, that I'd almost advise you to never airdodge in this matchup, unless you were returning to the stage.

 

[TK Wolf]

Thanks for that input. Hmm, I realized that I've been afraid to use large aura spheres against ROB, but I should probably try to do something like fair -> AS (assuming the fair hits). And yeah, I was so afraid of his nair and bair that I've just been pecking at him in the air.

timidpup is timid. x3

 

[DarkDragoon]

Lucario needs to stay aggressive in the air. If he's trying to avoid the killers, he's going to get killed. Luc has so many options to get around ROB's air game, that I'd almost advise you to never airdodge in this matchup, unless you were returning to the stage.

>_> Well, in Brawl the defending person tends to have the tactical advantage.
So with that look out for the following signs that ROB is about to counterattack:
SpotDodge:
-Almost ALWAYS followed by a DSmash. Or another Spot Dodge. Just Shield it, and don't try to do anything unless you have good grab timing.

-What isn't followed by a DSmash is followed by a Grab. If you're behind ROB however, chances are that it will be a DSmash. If ROB looks like hes going for something else, then just hit him with some jabs.

AirDodge[still in the air]:
-Read which direction the ROB is traveling. If you're in range of NAir's earlier hit boxes, you can count on getting a NAir, so DI away, and then back in with a BAir to DAir.
-If he was AirDodging an Aura Sphere, you can count on getting a top or a Laser thrown at you next.

AirDodge[followed by hitting the ground]:
-Air dodges close to the ground, or any ROB close to the ground, has lots of options. If they think you'll roll towards them, they'll use their BAir, which is a huge horizontal hitbox, and will more than likely hit you. If it looks like you're going to attack, you'll probably get FAir'd. Otherwise, count on a NAir->DSmash/FSmash.

Runs:
If ROB is running away, make sure you keep your spacing, and always anticipate the ROB to turn around and FSmash you.


>_> I'm ill, so something might be inaccurate, and well, I'm just ..
Yea, I'm really out of it.
-DD

 

[Trapt497]

ROB's spike is probably the worst in the game. The entire hitbox isn't a sweetspot, and it's the slowest spike evar. Not exactly powerful. The only thing it has going for it is it has a pretty big horizontal hitbox. It's still lacking in the vertical range though, which is necessary against most characters.

I give best spike to Ness or Samus, Falco as well if we're not seperating the spike from the rest of his game (chaingrab into spike) as Falco can't actually go beneath stage level to spike someone, lol.

ROB's spike is obviously not the best. But ROB's is more powerful than Kirby's and Luigi's spikes, is it not? The lag does get annoying...but it can be worked around fairly easily. It just takes practice to hit with it.

Oh, and, Ganondorf's spike is the best in the game...he wasn't on your list. I don't care about the lag. It's still the best spike in the game by far.

 

[Timbers]

>_> Well, in Brawl the defending person tends to have the tactical advantage.
So with that look out for the following signs that ROB is about to counterattack:
SpotDodge:
-Almost ALWAYS followed by a DSmash. Or another Spot Dodge. Just Shield it, and don't try to do anything unless you have good grab timing.

-What isn't followed by a DSmash is followed by a Grab. If you're behind ROB however, chances are that it will be a DSmash. If ROB looks like hes going for something else, then just hit him with some jabs.

AirDodge[still in the air]:
-Read which direction the ROB is traveling. If you're in range of NAir's earlier hit boxes, you can count on getting a NAir, so DI away, and then back in with a BAir to DAir.
-If he was AirDodging an Aura Sphere, you can count on getting a top or a Laser thrown at you next.

AirDodge[followed by hitting the ground]:
-Air dodges close to the ground, or any ROB close to the ground, has lots of options. If they think you'll roll towards them, they'll use their BAir, which is a huge horizontal hitbox, and will more than likely hit you. If it looks like you're going to attack, you'll probably get FAir'd. Otherwise, count on a NAir->DSmash/FSmash.

Runs:
If ROB is running away, make sure you keep your spacing, and always anticipate the ROB to turn around and FSmash you.


>_> I'm ill, so something might be inaccurate, and well, I'm just ..
Yea, I'm really out of it.
-DD

Lucario needs to stay aggressive in the air.

ROB's spike is obviously not the best. But ROB's is more powerful than Kirby's and Luigi's spikes, is it not? The lag does get annoying...but it can be worked around fairly easily. It just takes practice to hit with it.

Oh, and, Ganondorf's spike is the best in the game...he wasn't on your list. I don't care about the lag. It's still the best spike in the game by far.

Luigi's and Kirby's spikes are near instant. The tradeoff being that their spikes are quite weak. Ganon's is a very strong spike and huge sweetspot, but the tradeoff being that he can barely leave the stage to use it. Same goes for Falco. The reason why I give Ness and Samus the "best spike" is how versatile it is and how well they can use it. Samus is very floaty and has a great recovery. She can use this spike from almost anywhere offstage, and it's fast and has a very nice sweetspot It's a somewhat weak spike, but it's still very good in terms of use. Ness has, I believe, the strongest spike in the game. It's moderate speed and his floatiness/aerial DI grants him the flexibility to use it. The trade-off being that if he does miss he has his less-than-admirable recovery to use, which may get him gimped in the process.

ROB just has better options offstage. His fair and bair are amazing edgeguarders, and with such an amazing recovery, he's able to gimp just about anyone in the cast. He doesn't really need a spike to still have an impressive offstage game.

 

[Trapt497]

Luigi's and Kirby's spikes are near instant. The tradeoff being that their spikes are quite weak. Ganon's is a very strong spike and huge sweetspot, but the tradeoff being that he can barely leave the stage to use it. Same goes for Falco. The reason why I give Ness and Samus the "best spike" is how versatile it is and how well they can use it. Samus is very floaty and has a great recovery. She can use this spike from almost anywhere offstage, and it's fast and has a very nice sweetspot It's a somewhat weak spike, but it's still very good in terms of use. Ness has, I believe, the strongest spike in the game. It's moderate speed and his floatiness/aerial DI grants him the flexibility to use it. The trade-off being that if he does miss he has his less-than-admirable recovery to use, which may get him gimped in the process.

ROB just has better options offstage. His fair and bair are amazing edgeguarders, and with such an amazing recovery, he's able to gimp just about anyone in the cast. He doesn't really need a spike to still have an impressive offstage game.

I agree, for the most part. Ganondorf's is the strongest in the game, not Ness.' Though I do agree that Ness' may have more priority since it has a bit less start-up lag and he is floatier.

Anyways, I don't want this to turn into a random spiking conversation, so lets keep the discussion on ROB vs Lucario.

 

[Fizzle]

Determining the "strongest" spike is difficult. In terms of hitstun (which is most important in a spike), Ness's spike is the best, without a doubt. Try it in stage builder. Ganon's spike will send opponents 5 squares down while Ness's will send them 7.

However, Ganon's wins when it comes to knockback. His will kill grounded opponents off the top much easier than Ness's.

I wouldn't say either spike is really good though. Both are predictable and easy to see coming offstage. Falco's is instant, and combined with his CG it's definitely the best. Samus's is very good too. ROB's is situational.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Dair and Fthrow are probably the easiest kill moves to land imo.
The only reason i use Fsmash in this match up is to space.

 

[manhunter098]

Dair and Fthrow are probably the easiest kill moves to land imo.
The only reason i use Fsmash in this match up is to space.

NEVER use forward smash against ROB to space...its a free laser. Well I guess you can use it if your opponent likes to try to save up his laser so it will be fully charged, but make sure you dont try it when his laser is charged in that case. I do agree with the d-air thing, but I also think that in this matchup u-air is a useful kill move as well as long as you use at when you are at a decent percent and above the stage level.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

NEVER use forward smash against ROB to space...its a free laser. Well I guess you can use it if your opponent likes to try to save up his laser so it will be fully charged, but make sure you dont try it when his laser is charged in that case. I do agree with the d-air thing, but I also think that in this matchup u-air is a useful kill move as well as long as you use at when you are at a decent percent and above the stage level.

meh, actually I think i barely use fsmash at all against rob.

 

[Timbers]

dair and fthrow? lolwut.


Aurasphere, sons.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Wow... a little under 3 weeks and we are still on R.O.B.

>_>

 

[manhunter098]

dair and fthrow? lolwut.


Aurasphere, sons.

Only as a punishment. He can reflect it and he can block it with the gyro. Actually killing ROB is pretty tough. I mostly just keep trying to punish a spot dodge with f-smash when I need the kill, though Aura Sphere works in this situation too.


And yeah...its been a bit too long, we should just agree to end the ROB discussion about here and move on without Jeepy.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

And then, there was an UPDATE!! *CoughcoughJeepycoughcough*

ROB's been going on for way too long. We can either boycott the thread until Jeepy updates or start up the snake discussion.

 

[manhunter098]

I dont see why we cant just start with Snake really. As long as there is a clear dividing point between Snake and ROB conversation there shouldnt be a problem.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

OKAY!!!!!


I am updating as we speak. Jeez.

I said a while ago things were giong to be a little slower around here. And, yeah, I admit that ROB has been going on for a really long time, but I have been doing college business.

I will finish ROB soon, so just relax, everyone.

 

[Trapt497]

you guyz are mean to jeepy.

Beleive it or not, outside of Smashboards, outside of making awesome threads and specific data, he does have a life.

...I think :D.

 

[DarkDragoon]

O_O CAN WE START DISCUSSING SNAKE YET?!
>_> I'm just bored, and I don't want to be out of turn or anything.
-DD

 

[Jeepy Sol]

By all means, yes.

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAKKEEEE!!! time.

 

[Trapt497]

Alright, update!

My review for the mercenary will come shortly.

Me Ling...Samus took her clothes off...

Jeepy you should write a review of your own every now and then, if you have time :D.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

dair and fthrow? lolwut.


Aurasphere, sons.

AS is a given lol

 

[Sinz]

This is coming from a Snake player.

Ok, I know my tactic vs Lucario, is to camp them out with Grenades, things that give me a hard time are glide tossing the grenades to fthrows,(note when you glide toss, toss it away from the way your rolling or you'll blow up. Dthrow is recommended so you can grab to backthrow.)
When I am off the stage, I try to rise as high as I can, so get Aura spheres out there ABOVE snake, to limit his options.

Also, fsmash.

 

[Nurotasama]

I actually would not suggest trying to use glide toss with Lucario. Its rather risky and he just plain out has a poor glide toss.

I'd talk about stuff for this one but I need to get back to 200 pages of reading and 3 assignments due tomorrow for Calc.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

Call me crazy but I think Snake is an even match up. Lucario can chaingrab him to around 70-80%, can out camp him and once you get Snake in the air you can combo him so much. (Snake is just not good in the air against most people)

Of course Snake is capable of killing Lucario quite fast. U-tilt is godly and I'm almost positive it can out prioritize and out range Luc's f-smash. If you get caught in f-tilt at mid-high percents you're pretty much screwed.

Lucario can grab Snake's 'nades and toss them back at Snake. Mines and C4 can be a problem if you aren't careful.

I truly believe that it is dependent on the players skills. I've won matches against Snake and I've lost matches to Snake. As Snake I've been beaten by Lucario players and I've beaten Lucario players as well.

Might as well bring this back from page 1 when we were still not sure which character we were talking about at first.

 

[manhunter098]

Well Im going to a friends house tonight who plays a pretty mean Snake, Ill probably post some stuff as I am fighting him so I can get a really good analysis. Personally though I think that this matchup goes in Snakes favor though.

But I guess I will find out more tonight when I play my friend. Oh and by the way, AVOID LYLAT. The tilting of the stage makes it difficult to see where Snakes grenades end up, and where his explosives are hidden and the tilting as absolutely horrendous for using Aura Sphere.

 

[Timbers]

Only as a punishment. He can reflect it and he can block it with the gyro. Actually killing ROB is pretty tough. I mostly just keep trying to punish a spot dodge with f-smash when I need the kill, though Aura Sphere works in this situation too.


And yeah...its been a bit too long, we should just agree to end the ROB discussion about here and move on without Jeepy.

Well think of this. Most reflectors in the game are like 5-8 frames. ROB's reflector has almost 20 frames of startup, and it has to be angled to actually reflect it or he'll take damage. It's a bad reflector. Don't be predictable with it, but using it when he's right out of ftilt range makes for a good decision.

I dont see why we cant just start with Snake really. As long as there is a clear dividing point between Snake and ROB conversation there shouldnt be a problem.

I just didnt want to rush right into Snake without Jeepy's approval. Making him update two characters at once seemed cruel, and shouldn't have been forced onto him without his say so.

This is coming from a Snake player.

Ok, I know my tactic vs Lucario, is to camp them out with Grenades, things that give me a hard time are glide tossing the grenades to fthrows,(note when you glide toss, toss it away from the way your rolling or you'll blow up. Dthrow is recommended so you can grab to backthrow.)
When I am off the stage, I try to rise as high as I can, so get Aura spheres out there ABOVE snake, to limit his options.

Also, fsmash.

Aurasphere>nades

:\

Glide tossing with Lucario is generally a poor option, especially in this match. Snake's options at close quarters greatly hamper Lucario's. Considering you can't throw the projectile (nade) to cover your glide toss (or, throwing it at Snake) it makes it all too obvious that Luc is gonna come strolling in unprotected and helpless. Luc's grab range sucks, also. I don't know how you have trouble with that though. Just grab/ftilt him out of his glidetoss lol.

But anyways, aurasphere is better than nades. Just charging them up and throwing them so that it hits Snake right before the nade should be thrown is perfect for disarming his camping. He'll be forced to shield the aurasphere, and at the same time having to shield the nade. This eats up a ton of shield, and makes him unable to effectively get a nade thrown successfully. Nades clank with auraspheres unless the nade is too close to either Snake or Lucario. Keep that in mind when wanting to disarm his nade game. Also he does have lag while throwing the nade. There's a considerable window you're allowed to actually peg him with an aurasphere if he does try to throw the nade.

It's hard to explain, practice. Know when is the proper time to shield the nades, and when you have to shut him down with auraspheres.

 

[Sinz]

I usually toss my grenade then I pull out another one. This is the time I get punished the most.

Lucario has a very fast glide toss, which is why i brought it up.

Btw, Nades> Aurasphere.

Snake has much more control over his nades than you do over your sphere. Plus the nades are used for countering as well.

 

[Timbers]

Oh don't mistake me for calling nades inferior to auraspheres, just if there were to be a camp battle between nades and auraspheres, then aurasphere will win out.

I'd go as far to say that in the entire Lucario vs Snake matchup, Aurasphere helps much more than nades do, as Luc has very safe moves that keep him unhurt from any sort of nade countering.

Any other time, nades>>>>>>>>>>>aurasphere, so very hard.

 

[phi1ny3]

I do agree that AS is decent for outcamping and warding off nades, but it's also decent for displacing mines. btw, has the knee lock been found effective to use against Lucarios, or do we get a lucky break?

 

[XavantTheEnigma]

WATCH OUT FOR THE MINES. Seriously =_=
Especially if you are under a platform with a mine above you. THE PLATFORM WILL NOT PROTECT YOU. >:[

Aura Spheres can make grenades blow up! I cant remember if it can make fully charged aura spheres blow up.

LOLARIO's aerials > lolsnakes I believe. o_o

WATCH OUT FOR THAT UTILT. =_=
Since Lucario dies easier over the top, rather than the sides. o_o

I didnt read anything you guys said.
You can stop a mortar slide with sum aura spheres. Snake can be chain grabbed easier to a certain point... hmm... I forget.

 

[dguy6789]

This is 50:50.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

Don't Get Jabbed!

 

[Samuelson]

This is 50:50.

Alright guys lets move on to Peach now.

 

[XavantTheEnigma]

Alright guys lets move on to Peach now.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

45:55 snake imo... but i dont wanna make a wall of text like you guys like to right now -_-

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Originally Posted by mr_kennedy44
Call me crazy but I think Snake is an even match up. Lucario can chaingrab him to around 70-80%,

Maybe back then this might have worked, but there is no way that it will work any more. I am sure any snake player can tell you why. Same reason why you can't chain grab him with any other character other then Ice Climbers.

Since everyone else will say most of what I have to say about Snake even if I say it anyways, I will just post my Stage Recommendations...

Lets start with my "bad" stages

Frigate Orpheon: Snake can camp much better here then we can fight him on it. The low platform area is ideal for his tilt range, once he gets you moving away from his C4 and Grenades. His recovery wont be a problem here either since he doesn't need ledges to recover from.

Luigi's Mansion: That house is ideal for his camping, he can even Up tilt you from the floor below! Even if you destroy the house it wont take long for it to come back and then he can just start camping all over again.

Rainbow Cruise: Why do I put this in the bad category... because you will never fight Snake here. They will pick a different character (probably Meta Knight since they play Snake, they more then likely play Meta Knight too...) if you try to take them here. So it will just be all sorts of bad for you if you try this. Unless you are good at Meta Knight dittos I would highly recomend not choosing this stage against a Snake player... you wont fight them there.

Now for some good stages...

Rainbow Cruise: The best Snake counter pick in the game... only downside is you will never fight one here, they will either ban it or change their character.

Brinstar: The mucus on the floor stops Snakes Mortar Slide, and extends the duration of most attacks (which can be good and bad so watch out). The stage layout forces Snake to move around just to camp that well if he plans on hitting you with his grenades. The best part is the Lava, it forces him to move and in the air even.

Pokemon Stadium 2: The stage changes constantly which forces Snake to move around. It requires you and your opponent to adapt constantly (which is what I hear Snakes hate doing)

Pirate Ship: Get him in the water!!! There are enough stage obstacles that can impede his camping so that you can get inside him and mess with him a good bit.[/QUOTE]

 

[Timbers]

I retaliate, with a quote

The stage you'd want to take Snake to would be FD or Japes. No platforms makes it harder to him to approach you, also harder for him to camp due to platforms and utilt gayness.

I agree with Orpheon and Mansion as places to not take Snake to. For different reasons (kinda) but you summed it up. He can play defense phenomenally well here. Orpheon allows you to grab the cypher if he comes up through the side and he falls to his doom on the first stage, but it's impossible to ever see his C4 here and the second stage's platform allows for some easy defense for him. On the flipside though it does give Lucario plenty of options if he's the one under the platform.

Rainbow Cruise is no concern. If you're taken to Cruise as Lucario, it's going to be by a character who can **** house on there (GaW, MK) and there's nothing you can do about it. If you want to keep this exclusively Snake, that was irrelevant. We'd have to go through each character's counterpicks and be like "lawl dont pick this cause theyll CP you with a different character."

No.

What a Snake WILL TAKE YOU TO is BRINSTAR. That's not a bad stage for Snake. It's a freakin' amazing stage. Every competent Snake you play against is going to have Brinstar or Lylat as their CP. He can camp behind the "mucus" stupidly well when edgeguarding you. Platforms are perfect height for his utilt and depending on the stage level he can autocancel his fulljumped nairs. Top it off with low ceiling and enclosed sides (perfect for his ftilt and utilt) and you have a sad Lucario.

I'd imagine PS2 would be good against Snake, but SBR has banned it I believe. (EDIT: Ok it's still CP >_> I haven't played the stage enough to argue for or against it though. )

No comment on Pirate Ship.

Avoid Brinstar, Lylat, Battlefield. Try to force FD and Japes.

Snake vs. Lucario discussion up: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193429

 

[emoklops]

Ok, wait.
Is Brinstar good or bad to us?

 

[Timbers]

It's a terrifyingly good Snake stage.

 

[manhunter098]

It's a terrifyingly good Snake stage.

Definitely agree it makes his tilts extremely deadly. But the acid is better for Lucario since you can stall hitting it or stall your fall without having to jump to try to have ti save you, and your aerials are faster so you can pull them off easily on a Snake that might happen to get sent flying. And I feel the stage shuts down his grenade game pretty well, but it gives our Aura Sphere (at least the charged ones) a little trouble too. Still, his tilts are incredibly deadly on this stage so I would definitely say it should be avoided.