JJR.O.B.
Smash Ace
Blood Hawk has a beastly lucario
-
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~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~
- Thread starter Jeepy Sol
- Start date
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
it's in ROBs favor imo, main reason: nair
but not by much somewhere between 55:45 and OS's own statement of 52:48
but not by much somewhere between 55:45 and OS's own statement of 52:48
Nair is so freaking easy to avoid it isn't funny. It's really really slow and he makes a jerky movement. Keep an eye out for that jerky movement and you're all set. It's also painfully obvious every time he attempts to Nair.
50-50.
Timbers
check me out
Either 50:50 or 55:45 Lucario.
ROB has difficulty landing a killer on Lucario, which makes any Lucario happy to thrive on auraboost. ROB can't camp Lucario. Even if you watch that video of Hawk vs. Overswarm, Hawk's always the one dealing a considerable more amount of damage to OS than OS is to Hawk. Aurasphere is just a better projectile for close quarters projectile "spam." ROB's aerials are cut down pretty hard thanks to Lucario's own disjointed, lingering hitboxes. So long as you avoid his fair it should be a cakewalk.
With that said, ROB still has an edge on you to keep it even. He does outrange you on the ground, by a good amount. Fair IS a dangerous tool to go up against, and he can wreck you when you're off the stage, either taking your stock or racking your percent to ridiculous numbers.
Overall I say it's neutral. Maybe a few numbers in Lucario's favor but not enough to sway the match any.
ROB has difficulty landing a killer on Lucario, which makes any Lucario happy to thrive on auraboost. ROB can't camp Lucario. Even if you watch that video of Hawk vs. Overswarm, Hawk's always the one dealing a considerable more amount of damage to OS than OS is to Hawk. Aurasphere is just a better projectile for close quarters projectile "spam." ROB's aerials are cut down pretty hard thanks to Lucario's own disjointed, lingering hitboxes. So long as you avoid his fair it should be a cakewalk.
With that said, ROB still has an edge on you to keep it even. He does outrange you on the ground, by a good amount. Fair IS a dangerous tool to go up against, and he can wreck you when you're off the stage, either taking your stock or racking your percent to ridiculous numbers.
Overall I say it's neutral. Maybe a few numbers in Lucario's favor but not enough to sway the match any.
dguy6789
Smash Lord
Gonna have to agree with the man with the badass avatar.
Nines~Tempest
Smash Cadet
Lol I missed all the discussion.
50 50 why? Both Fairs are sick. DONE.
50 50 why? Both Fairs are sick. DONE.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Recovering high and using a ton of fuel are different; and as whatshisname said, when possible.
Welcome back dguy.
My ROB review. Open for critisism. If you hate this, tell me :D.
ROB is a tough match for lucario. As mentioned before, and he has a great amount of range that makes him hard to approach on. His ground game is better than Lucario's. All of them have extreme priority. Other highlights of ROB's ground game: f-tilt is excelent b/c of its range, spammable d-tilt, etc.
ROB has a great aerial game. Some moves are laggy, like ours, but are soo powerful its not even funny. N-air covers such a wide range it doesn't matter if you can catch the 'jerky movement.' F-air is okay, sort of like ours but definetly not as lag-less or wide-ranged (Nines, our f-air is more sick for these<<< reasons). U-air isn't bad, but its easy for us to counter with a d-air, or simply a DI or AD. But b-air and n-air is where its at for ROB. If Lucario doesn't take the advantage and hit ROB while he is in his start-up lag, the move will definetly outrange anything else he can do. If Lucario is careful while in the air and keeps up the 'combos,' he sholdn't have to worry about ROB's really powerful aerials too much. Lucario wins in the air. Barely.
Adding on to aerial games, as stated before, a problem arises when ROB is recovering and we can hop off the edge and **** him midair. It can be avoided as Overswarm has stated, by recovering high enough while conserving fuel. But if its inevitable, ROB's up-b recovery path gets anticipated and punished. ROB isn't like Snake, where he can AD right out of it. Nope. If ROB is using his up b right in front of you he is just asking for it. The best moves for Lucario to gimp/anticipate recovery are with d-air (jump above him), Aura sphere (jump to get level with him or just wait on the stage until he gets level with you), or f-air (lagless, sets up more opportunities for same aerial attack).
Projectiles. Both characters love 'em. ROB generally loves them more, because they are amazing. I don't have to explain why the laser is so great, do I? His second projectile, the 'top', has KO potential if fully charged and can block our aura spheres if used correctly. The top is not spammable however. You'd think ROB's projectile game destroys Lucario period until you take into account the usefulnes of baby aura spheres. BAS' come out faster than ROB's laser can recharge. Sure, ROB can reflect it, but the side-b has little priority anyways and ROB can get hit right after the side b animations are over. With projectiles, ROB needs to stay out of range or dodge BAS, and he is in great shape. Lucario has a bit more trouble, but he needs to remember to BAS as long as it will be effective and, when necessary, shoot a fully charged AS for a KO (unexpectably though, of course, since if AS is expected ROB has plenty of time to block it with down b, reflect it with side b, or shield it).
If Lucario plays it smart, and ROB hopefully can't find a way to camp if AS and BAS are used correctly (otherwise, a camping ROB would **** us), I say 60-40 Lucario. Barely above what it looks like a lot are saying, 55-45. If 60-40 makes it look like ROB hasnt been dealt a very good hand of cards, than don't look at it that way. This match-up can go either way all depending on how each character plays.
My ROB review. Open for critisism. If you hate this, tell me :D.
ROB is a tough match for lucario. As mentioned before, and he has a great amount of range that makes him hard to approach on. His ground game is better than Lucario's. All of them have extreme priority. Other highlights of ROB's ground game: f-tilt is excelent b/c of its range, spammable d-tilt, etc.
ROB has a great aerial game. Some moves are laggy, like ours, but are soo powerful its not even funny. N-air covers such a wide range it doesn't matter if you can catch the 'jerky movement.' F-air is okay, sort of like ours but definetly not as lag-less or wide-ranged (Nines, our f-air is more sick for these<<< reasons). U-air isn't bad, but its easy for us to counter with a d-air, or simply a DI or AD. But b-air and n-air is where its at for ROB. If Lucario doesn't take the advantage and hit ROB while he is in his start-up lag, the move will definetly outrange anything else he can do. If Lucario is careful while in the air and keeps up the 'combos,' he sholdn't have to worry about ROB's really powerful aerials too much. Lucario wins in the air. Barely.
Adding on to aerial games, as stated before, a problem arises when ROB is recovering and we can hop off the edge and **** him midair. It can be avoided as Overswarm has stated, by recovering high enough while conserving fuel. But if its inevitable, ROB's up-b recovery path gets anticipated and punished. ROB isn't like Snake, where he can AD right out of it. Nope. If ROB is using his up b right in front of you he is just asking for it. The best moves for Lucario to gimp/anticipate recovery are with d-air (jump above him), Aura sphere (jump to get level with him or just wait on the stage until he gets level with you), or f-air (lagless, sets up more opportunities for same aerial attack).
Projectiles. Both characters love 'em. ROB generally loves them more, because they are amazing. I don't have to explain why the laser is so great, do I? His second projectile, the 'top', has KO potential if fully charged and can block our aura spheres if used correctly. The top is not spammable however. You'd think ROB's projectile game destroys Lucario period until you take into account the usefulnes of baby aura spheres. BAS' come out faster than ROB's laser can recharge. Sure, ROB can reflect it, but the side-b has little priority anyways and ROB can get hit right after the side b animations are over. With projectiles, ROB needs to stay out of range or dodge BAS, and he is in great shape. Lucario has a bit more trouble, but he needs to remember to BAS as long as it will be effective and, when necessary, shoot a fully charged AS for a KO (unexpectably though, of course, since if AS is expected ROB has plenty of time to block it with down b, reflect it with side b, or shield it).
If Lucario plays it smart, and ROB hopefully can't find a way to camp if AS and BAS are used correctly (otherwise, a camping ROB would **** us), I say 60-40 Lucario. Barely above what it looks like a lot are saying, 55-45. If 60-40 makes it look like ROB hasnt been dealt a very good hand of cards, than don't look at it that way. This match-up can go either way all depending on how each character plays.
Eggz
Smash Hero
idk how late i am for all this simna drama, but my friend just told me he banned someone for a week for not being an obsessive ness weirdo like him
not everyone likes ness to the point of sexual obsession. >_> You dont have to ban because someone realizes that the slowest and most predictable move in the game isn't reliable as a kill move. The only reason Ness mains ever win is because of accidental and fluke up b kills. accidents and flukes dont equal counter.
nor does not being a ness main warrant a ban. l2mod.
not everyone likes ness to the point of sexual obsession. >_> You dont have to ban because someone realizes that the slowest and most predictable move in the game isn't reliable as a kill move. The only reason Ness mains ever win is because of accidental and fluke up b kills. accidents and flukes dont equal counter.
nor does not being a ness main warrant a ban. l2mod.
Kasai
Smash Journeyman
There truly is nothing more needed to be said.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
You should hang around the Lucario boards more often, you're really cool!
Timbers
check me out
I agree, save for the part that our fair>his fair.
His fair is great.
I still believe it as 55:45.
hahaha.
Yup.
Jeepy Sol
Smash Ace
Expect an update this weekend. I can't tonight because I have a tournament tomorrow.
Good stuff, guys!
Good stuff, guys!
tedward2000
Smash Champion
jeeps good luck!
And get on that update!
(this message has been brought to you by the iPod touch)
-iT2 (like the ipod, just iT2...)
And get on that update!
(this message has been brought to you by the iPod touch)
-iT2 (like the ipod, just iT2...)
dj_pwn1423
Smash Journeyman
I didn't feel like reading through the walls of text, so someone probably already mentioned this.
Lucs jabs have a pretty good chance of going through ROBs SD>Dsmash because of its lingering hitboxes... and they are probably your fastest atk in that kind of situation.
Lucs jabs have a pretty good chance of going through ROBs SD>Dsmash because of its lingering hitboxes... and they are probably your fastest atk in that kind of situation.
I prefer ftilt as its hitboxes linger even longer...
idk...jabbing sounds a little risky because ROB's down smash covers a lot of range. I'd agree with a f-tilt though. I was also about to say f-smash, but the startup lag of that would just be asking ROB to hit us after the spot dodge. But yeah f-tilt covers more range than the jabs and doesn't have that bad of start-up lag.
dj_pwn1423
Smash Journeyman
I dunno, you need to predict ROBs spotdodge to hit with ftilt, its not that hard but there is a great chance of missing when trying to read your opponent. Its alot easier to do jabs on reaction than ftilt.
Another thing is that if ROB is in your Ftilt range, he will probably Ftilt YOU. ROBs usually start to spotdodge>Dsmash when people get to close, thats why jabs are better in this situation, range is not as necessary.
Another thing is that if ROB is in your Ftilt range, he will probably Ftilt YOU. ROBs usually start to spotdodge>Dsmash when people get to close, thats why jabs are better in this situation, range is not as necessary.
Our f-tilt range is greater than jabs, so why would he not also f-tilt if you try and jab?
dj_pwn1423
Smash Journeyman
You dont get it, ROBs use spotdodge>Dsmash when someone is too close for them to do anything else. If he is in your Ftilt range he wont Dsmash, he will use Ftilt.
Assuming you've managed to get pass ROBs spacing and you are at the point where ROB starts to spotdodge, the attack i with the least start up lag is probably your best option imo.
Assuming you've managed to get pass ROBs spacing and you are at the point where ROB starts to spotdodge, the attack i with the least start up lag is probably your best option imo.
DuskMarthWater
Dude.
SD actually stands for SUICIDE. Find a different abbreviation mate. That one's taken.
dj_pwn1423
Smash Journeyman
lawl alot of people use SD but ok
*edits*
*edits*
I mean, I get it, but whatever. I guess so.
Lol I never even thought of that. I mean, a lot of people do use it for spot dodge, but I forgot it meant self-destruct lol.SD actually stands for SUICIDE. Find a different abbreviation mate. That one's taken.
DuskMarthWater
Dude.
Hehe, I was half-kidding with that. I at least elicited a laugh from everyone with that. No but seriously, it even says that in the game as an abbreviation. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Hmmm, back on subject...I still got nothin'. GET AN UPDATE JEEPY!!!!
Hmmm, back on subject...I still got nothin'. GET AN UPDATE JEEPY!!!!
OneWingedAngelo1
Smash Journeyman
Since We have all said our peace on ROB and Jeepy said he would be away for a bit, what is stopping people from just talking about Snake.... Do you really need someone to OK it for you? If anything it will prevent people from posting their "OMG why havent we changed yet" "Change plz kthxby" posts, since they will see we have started a new topic.
Since everyone else will say most of what I have to say about Snake even if I say it anyways, I will just post my Stage Recommendations...
Lets start with my "bad" stages
Frigate Orpheon: Snake can camp much better here then we can fight him on it. The low platform area is ideal for his tilt range, once he gets you moving away from his C4 and Grenades. His recovery wont be a problem here either since he doesn't need ledges to recover from.
Luigi's Mansion: That house is ideal for his camping, he can even Up tilt you from the floor below! Even if you destroy the house it wont take long for it to come back and then he can just start camping all over again.
Rainbow Cruise: Why do I put this in the bad category... because you will never fight Snake here. They will pick a different character (probably Meta Knight since they play Snake, they more then likely play Meta Knight too...) if you try to take them here. So it will just be all sorts of bad for you if you try this. Unless you are good at Meta Knight dittos I would highly recomend not choosing this stage against a Snake player... you wont fight them there.
Now for some good stages...
Rainbow Cruise: The best Snake counter pick in the game... only downside is you will never fight one here, they will either ban it or change their character.
Brinstar: The mucus on the floor stops Snakes Mortar Slide, and extends the duration of most attacks (which can be good and bad so watch out). The stage layout forces Snake to move around just to camp that well if he plans on hitting you with his grenades. The best part is the Lava, it forces him to move and in the air even.
Pokemon Stadium 2: The stage changes constantly which forces Snake to move around. It requires you and your opponent to adapt constantly (which is what I hear Snakes hate doing)
Pirate Ship: Get him in the water!!! There are enough stage obstacles that can impede his camping so that you can get inside him and mess with him a good bit.
Since everyone else will say most of what I have to say about Snake even if I say it anyways, I will just post my Stage Recommendations...
Lets start with my "bad" stages
Frigate Orpheon: Snake can camp much better here then we can fight him on it. The low platform area is ideal for his tilt range, once he gets you moving away from his C4 and Grenades. His recovery wont be a problem here either since he doesn't need ledges to recover from.
Luigi's Mansion: That house is ideal for his camping, he can even Up tilt you from the floor below! Even if you destroy the house it wont take long for it to come back and then he can just start camping all over again.
Rainbow Cruise: Why do I put this in the bad category... because you will never fight Snake here. They will pick a different character (probably Meta Knight since they play Snake, they more then likely play Meta Knight too...) if you try to take them here. So it will just be all sorts of bad for you if you try this. Unless you are good at Meta Knight dittos I would highly recomend not choosing this stage against a Snake player... you wont fight them there.
Now for some good stages...
Rainbow Cruise: The best Snake counter pick in the game... only downside is you will never fight one here, they will either ban it or change their character.
Brinstar: The mucus on the floor stops Snakes Mortar Slide, and extends the duration of most attacks (which can be good and bad so watch out). The stage layout forces Snake to move around just to camp that well if he plans on hitting you with his grenades. The best part is the Lava, it forces him to move and in the air even.
Pokemon Stadium 2: The stage changes constantly which forces Snake to move around. It requires you and your opponent to adapt constantly (which is what I hear Snakes hate doing)
Pirate Ship: Get him in the water!!! There are enough stage obstacles that can impede his camping so that you can get inside him and mess with him a good bit.
Jeepy Sol
Smash Ace
I'll try to update tonight, but I don't think it's going to happen. It'll be done by Tuesday at the latest.
Also, thanks for your contribution, but I'd like to keep the discussion consistent, since I am linking pages in the OP, and I don't want Snake info in the ROB section.
Also, thanks for your contribution, but I'd like to keep the discussion consistent, since I am linking pages in the OP, and I don't want Snake info in the ROB section.
Timbers
check me out
This. Jabs/jab cancelled whatevers are good against ROB's spotdodge ***gotry. His dsmash is like same range as your ftilt anyways, no point trying to space yourself with it when his dsmash comes out in 4 frames or something.
Uhh.
>_>
The stage you'd want to take Snake to would be FD. No platforms makes it harder to him to approach you, also harder for him to camp due to platforms and utilt gayness.
I agree with Orpheon and Mansion as places to not take Snake to. For different reasons (kinda) but you summed it up. He can play defense phenomenally well here. Orpheon allows you to grab the cypher if he comes up through the side and he falls to his doom on the first stage, but it's impossible to ever see his C4 here and the second stage's platform allows for some easy defense for him. On the flipside though it does give Lucario plenty of options if he's the one under the platform.
Rainbow Cruise is no concern. If you're taken to Cruise as Lucario, it's going to be by a character who can **** house on there (GaW, MK) and there's nothing you can do about it. If you want to keep this exclusively Snake, that was irrelevant. We'd have to go through each character's counterpicks and be like "lawl dont pick this cause theyll CP you with a different character."
No.
What a Snake WILL TAKE YOU TO is BRINSTAR. That's not a bad stage for Snake. It's a freakin' amazing stage. Every competent Snake you play against is going to have Brinstar or Lylat as their CP. He can camp behind the "mucus" stupidly well when edgeguarding you. Platforms are perfect height for his utilt and depending on the stage level he can autocancel his fulljumped nairs. Top it off with low ceiling and enclosed sides (perfect for his ftilt and utilt) and you have a sad Lucario.
I'd imagine PS2 would be good against Snake, but SBR has banned it I believe. (EDIT: Ok it's still CP >_> I haven't played the stage enough to argue for or against it though. )
No comment on Pirate Ship.
Avoid Brinstar, Lylat, Battlefield. Try to force FD and Japes.
Also respect Jeepy's request. He's the creator of this thread afterall. If he wants to stay on ROB then let him.
OneWingedAngelo1
Smash Journeyman
So then why couldn't you say that the snake conversation starts here?
Why would snake ever approach, he can camp much better then you can.. he will force you to approach and punish you for it....
I posted about this because this is a stage that you can **** him on... I posted the fact that you wont fight him there just so that people dont get caught off gaurd when the snake player changes characters on you.
Jeepy Sol
Smash Ace
Because there might be more information posted about ROB once I update.
Anyway, end of conversation plx.
Anyway, end of conversation plx.
Timbers
check me out
....lol.
I haven't given my input on this. Take ROB to Battlefield. Avoid Frigate and Lylat.
Lol, in almost every thread one of you two is in, the other is there also, arguing. You guys should duke it out on wifi or something, figure out who is right once and for all.
I can see why ROB would love lylat, but why avoid frigate?
I can see why ROB would love lylat, but why avoid frigate?
manhunter098
Smash Lord
I would say avoid Frigate because its a stage that can by chance cause you to get gimped, but for ROB and his incredible recovery it means nothing. Also the platforms might not be too fun with ROBs grab range, you could get grabbed and then tossed off the side a little more easily there too.
dguy6789
Smash Lord
It's insanely clear who's right and who isn't. It's been pretty obvious from day one.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Science makes everything better, even Wi-Fi slug outs
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Welcome to Wednesday Jeeps.
I see a lack of updating.
you've been busy, understandable, but still.
-t2
I see a lack of updating.
you've been busy, understandable, but still.
-t2
Timbers
check me out
lol.
Hawk disagrees with me on this, but the stage just caters to ROB too well. The second transformation, his defensive game is so gay underneath the platform. The platforms that throw themsselves out on the sides every 6 or 7 seconds lets him camp even more than before, and going after him is dangerous as he can easily gimp your less-than-admirable recovery.
We do have a wall grab though, which is fairly easy on several of the side walls that are encountered while recovering. Wall grab > wall jump > b-air would work great. But when its too hard to reach the wall, I agree that ROB can pretty much gimp us to death.
The platforms to provide a bit of safe haven against ROB's projectiles, though. Not perfect cause all he has to do is aim the laser up or SH > gyro. But its something.
Note that ROB is fairly easy to gimp too with a fairly gimp-able up-b.
...we've been on ROB for a while now lol. No rush Jeepy, but, HURRY UP. Lol jk.