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Looking at the Custom Moves

Cornstalk

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Cornstalk
Since there doesn't seem to be a topic yet about Charizard's custom options, here we go!


:GCB:

1 FLAMETHROWER (Default)

The classic stream of fire we've known from Bowser since melee. While it's harder to get out of multi-hit moves in Smash 4, the hit boxes do appear to be slightly more spread out then past incarnations. The move can be a good choice for free damage if you find the right opportunity, and is probably the best choice over all for the 3 choices. An opponent not caught in the flame will usually get a free hit on you still, unfortunately.

2 FIRE FANG
The stream of fire is small, but you can hold it as long as you'd like and it never diminishes. The real strength of this move is the bite when you release the button. It deals about 7-8% damage from just the bite. The bite also has a decent launch power.

This move has potential as a mix up. Because you can hold the button to delay the bite and the move does not cancel from landing, it can potentially catch someone off guard that thinks they have a free shield grab or avoided your attack with an air dodge.

Though not as safe for dealing damage as Flamethrower, Fire Fang still has potential as a useful alternative.

3 FIREBALL CANNON
Charizard shoots out 3 flame bursts with a noticeable delay between each blast. This move forces you to stay still until it completes, does very little damage, and has virtually non-existent hit stun and knock back. If someone can suggest a use for this custom, please share, because it seems completely useless right now.



:GCR::GCB:

1 FLARE BLITZ
Charizard rushes forward in a blaze of glory. Start-up inflicts 4% self damage and hitting an opponent deals another 5% to Charizard, for a total of 9% self inflicted damage. Priority on this move is high, causing it to clash with many projectiles, stopping the move outright. Speed is good, making it a good tech or roll chase option. In a pinch, it makes a good recovery option as well.

This is a solid choice that is only truly limited by the self inflicted damage.

2 BLAST BURN
A more powerful version of Flare Blitz at the cost of speed and reach. Starting recoil damage is 6% with another 10% added when you impact an opponent. The kill power on this special is great, resulting in a star KO on mid weight characters around 100%.

Actually landing this move is the hard part, and repeated use is massively self destructive. Good option if you rarely use Flare Blitz anyway and want the extra kill power for when you do.

3 DRAGON RUSH
This move opens up some new doors to Charizard. There is no longer self-inflicted damage. The end lag is considerably less. Instead of 1 big hit, the attack is a multi-hit move but it carries most of the priority that Flare Blitz does. The final hit has respectable horizontal launch power.

Dragon Rush shines as a harassment move against low projectile spammers. It will clash wish many of them, resulting in a complete stop for Charizard that resets the situation. With a short hop, it can actually clear several of the projectiles catching the shooter in the attack before their lag ends.

It also makes a frightening edge guard tool. Catching an opponent from the edge of the stage can result in KO's as low as 50% (depending on weight and vectoring), as they will be dragged all the way out to the blast zone then launched. As long as you start just above the ledge, Charizard can recover with the right timing of Jump -> Dragon Rush. If the timing is slightly off, he can still make it back with 1 more jump and Fly. Equiping Fly High instead allows Charizard to run off the edge into a dragon rush and still -just- make it back, making him a bigger threat to players recovering low.

Dragon Rush is so versatile, it's hard to go back to Flare Blitz after using it.


:GCU::GCB:

1 FLY
A standard recovery move with a good vertical launch power hit at the very end. It can pick up opponents in front of Charizard and makes a decent out of shield choice if they're foolish enough to land right in front of you. An alert evasive opponent will find Fly pretty easy to dodge.

If you're good at landing this move for KO's or need that piece of mind of having a hit box to protect yourself recovering, stick with Fly.

2 RISING CYCLONE
This move has a noticeably better hit box on both sides of Charizard at start up. It is much more likely to scoop up opponents nearby, so it's not a bad out of shield option to get some breathing room. There is a very strong vertical launch at the very end of the attack, but landing it can be quite hard. The multi-hit on Rising Cyclone tends to knock foes away before the final hit can land. It also seems to get less height then the other 2 choices, making it risky for recovery.

Unless something new is discovered about this move, it's probably the weakest of the 3 choices for this slot.

3 FLY HIGH
You sacrifice the damage on the move for a little more height. It's a good option if you find you have trouble making it back on stage. The real advantage comes with the Dragon Rush combo, allowing you to use Dragon Rush slightly below the stage and still recover.


:GCD::GCB:

1 ROCK SMASH
Good use of this move can make an opponent think twice about taking you head on. It has generous super armor, so odds are you can trade damage and come out on top. Of the 3 choices, it does the most damage. It can even KO on the odd occasion the start up skull bash lands without the rock shards hitting your target and stopping the launch, but don't rely on this.

2 SINKING SKULL
No rock this time around. You're basically getting Donkey Kong's head butt attack. It will spike on the first hit box and bury grounded opponents if they're... on the ground.

No super armor on this variation.

3 ROCK HURL
This is a bizarre one. It does less damage than Rock Smash, but it pops a victim up and away from Charizard. While there doesn't seem to be an 1 on 1 follow up options for this move, it may have value in teams as a way to set up an opponent for your team mate to get a free hit.



So there's a short summary of all the special moves. Anyone have some interesting tidbits to add?
 

Coffee™

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Does Rock Hurl have super armor? I was playing around with it a bit yesterday but I didn't get a chance to test it. I'm really liking the angle of knockback on this move in comparison to the default Rock Smash. Pretty sure it combos into Up Air at certain percents as well.
 

Cornstalk

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Does Rock Hurl have super armor? I was playing around with it a bit yesterday but I didn't get a chance to test it. I'm really liking the angle of knockback on this move in comparison to the default Rock Smash. Pretty sure it combos into Up Air at certain percents as well.
Yes to super armor.
A very close hit sends them above Charizard, so at low percents on lighter characters Fly seems to work as a follow-up. Heavies and certain fast fallers in theory could be U-smashed or Tilted.

If just the rock shards hit, the angle is more of an up and away. Haven't been able to get any kind of follow up from that at any percent so far.



I've been working with 2331 (Fire Fang, Dragon Rush, Fly High, Rock Smash).

Fire Fang is mostly there to play with right now. It's back to Flamethrower if I can't find anything useful for it.

Dragon Rush + Fly High is to make an opponent scared to be off the edge. Recovering stage level to mid-high is a nice low percent kill if they get caught in Dragon Rush. Dragon Rush also doubles as on stage mobility for projectile spam and roll punishing.

I've had the best luck with Rock Smash so far. Straight up challenging an opponent's moves and doing huge damage can be very demoralizing once its hit a few times. Sinking Skull is still solid, but so hard to land unless your opponent is straight up derp or easily conditioned. Rock Hurl might be worth it if I was still running Fly, but the follow-ups are so far pretty wonky, so I'd rather have the guaranteed damage of Rock Smash.
 

The Real Gamer

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In terms of overall utility I'm liking all of Zard's defaults + Dragon Rush/Flare Blitz (MU dependent).

I feel like Fire Fang, Blast Burn, and Sinking Skull are bad and should never be used over their alternatives, while the rest seem to have situational uses at best.

Fly High in particular is pretty good if you need to go deep offstage for kills, but you lose the ability to get kill confirms off of your jab which is pretty important.

Fireball Cannon is surprisingly good for disrupting recovering opponents from a distance but other than that I haven't figured out a good use for it over Flamethrower.

Rising Cyclone is a great OoS option but like the OP said it seems really rough to land the last hit consistently for some reason, which makes it an unreliable KO move. I don't think it's worth giving up vertical recovery in most scenarios.

Rock Hurl seems to have a niche as an extra option for opponents that are above and in front of Zard. The shards make it difficult for characters to land in front of him and it's harder to punish than Rock Smash which might make it useful in certain MUs. Need more testing with this one.
 

Coffee™

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Yes to super armor.
A very close hit sends them above Charizard, so at low percents on lighter characters Fly seems to work as a follow-up. Heavies and certain fast fallers in theory could be U-smashed or Tilted.
Sounds good. I'll try those out in a bit.

If just the rock shards hit, the angle is more of an up and away. Haven't been able to get any kind of follow up from that at any percent so far.
This is what I've been "comboing" into Up Air.

Fire Fang is mostly there to play with right now. It's back to Flamethrower if I can't find anything useful for it.
I like it but idk if I'd use it over FT. It has some good potential to be a potent mixup and it can help cover Zards landing as well but overall utility seems lower than FT. Really need to test this one out a bit more.
 
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Cornstalk

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I like it but idk if I'd use it over FT. It has some good potential to be a potent mixup and it can help cover Zards landing as well but overall utility seems lower than FT. Really need to test this one out a bit more.
All of his neutral-B's are pretty situational, unfortunately.

There are the things I'm trying out with Fire Fang:
  • What can it do landing right on top of a shielding opponent with it active?
  • Can you bait an air dodge by delaying the move and still get a hit?
  • Is there any benefit to using it in place of the Forward or Neutral Air without delaying the bite?
I can't think of any other applications for it right now, but maybe something interesting will happen if I keep using it.
 

The Real Gamer

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My issue with Fire Fang is that you give up the ability to harass opponents from midrange and offstage. FT really messes up quite a few character's recoveries and its actually a nice defensive move to land with and put some space between you and your opponent as long as they don't roll behind you.
 

Action Kazimer

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I've been enjoying Rising Cyclone, but largely because I'm pretty bad at getting default Fly to ever hit. The extra horizontal hitboxes make a world of difference for me, and I haven't felt overly gimped on recovery from the reduced height yet.

As for getting that end hit box, I think I've been pretty lucky with it up to this point. Not sure if you can actually influence your direction mid-move, but I tend to try pushing left or right into my opponent when I see I've got 'em.


Still need to mess with Dragon Rush more, but I stick with defaults for Flamethrower and Rock Smash. I just like having access to Flare Blitz punishes too much.
 

Davregis

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Blast Burn can KO most middleweights from around 60%. It does around 23 damage on hit, though.
 

Cornstalk

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I really need to get a capture card for stuff like this...

Dragon Rush can:
  1. Start right at the edge facing off (standing)
  2. Hold the opposite direction while dragon rush is going and mash jump
  3. When jump is confirmed, dragon rush back to the edge

If all goes well, you will end sweet spotting the ledge.
If you fall short, you're an Up-B away against a wall, or a jump to reposition yourself then an Up-B if you go under the stage.

With Fly High, you can start dragon rush at ledge level (usually by running off and starting it) and still make it back with the same as above. If you botch the jump timing before the returning Dragon Rush you will not make it, sadly.


Players that like to recover low usually start above the stage, so if you time dragon rush right, you can tag them in the magnifying glass, making it much harder to air dodge. The move has high priority, so they'll struggle to challenge it and most knock back should send you back towards the stage.

Of course if you time it badly, you may eat spike or B-air. So there are risks, but most opponents should be at a big disadvantage if you're pulling this off.

And if they like to recover high... they're just asking to be Dragon Rushed to the blast zone. :chuckle:
 
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Joshkip

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I can give a little advice on a couple moves I use and work amazingly well for me.

Neutral B: Fireball Canon
Up B: Fly
Side B: Dragon Rush
Down B: Rock Hurl (I switch between Rock Smash)

Neutral B: Fireball Canon
I mostly use this move as a scare/pressure tactic and a edge guard. Since it hits so far away I can put the opponent in a awkward situation when they are off the stage. It's also great for a mind game tactic on stage by using one or two jumps seeing what the opponent does then releasing it to put them in an awkward position. I suppose it could also be good for campers.

Down B: Rock Hurl
I don't know about everyone else but I am really good at pressuring the opponent from underneath. Which to me seems good for high percents.

Dragon Rush is obviously better in my opinion and easier to combo. Also surprise Fly attack after Dragon Rush can make for silly kills.
 

Darthrai

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How much worse does Dragon Rush's damage nerf from the 1.0.4 patch make it?

In any case, the nerf is making me look at Flare Blitz a bit more (also because it's Charizard's default option and I like using him in For Glory). I know that it does more damage and is a better kill move, but does it really have better super armor than Dragon Rush? If so, then it's definitely something to consider.
 

Pokepal148

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Rock Hurl imo should have been Charizard's default. I feel like it does really well at getting your opponents in the air where you can then hit them with your u-smash or u-tilt or punish them with flare blitz as they land.

I just cannot get into Rising Cyclone for his up special tbh. I feel like charizards recovery in general isn't where it should be.

That said I also dislike the fly high option because I often rely on fly as a kill move.

Fireball cannon would be really nice if you weren't locked into the full 3 blasts.
 

Appdude

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Dragon rush can kill ganon at 0% (Tested) if you catch him off the edged. besides that, if you catch ANYONE off the ledge with over 50% damage in your dragon rush, you will K.O them.
 
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Cornstalk

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Dragon Rush's damage nerf really didn't change the move at all. It may seem extreme at a 4% nerf, but that's assuming you catch an opponent in every single hit of the attack. I find normally I use dragon rush to punish opponents thinking they're safe at distance. At this point, only about half the hits land, which ends up only being a 1-2% loss in damage over all.

Knockback was unchanged, so it's still a great option to drag people off stage and make them scared to recover high against you.

I find if you start Dragon Rush on the ground, it will clank with most projectiles and end the move with no damage to charizard. There's a small window in the start-up animation where the projectile will still win, but after 1/3 of the distance traveled it should clank almost everything, including fox's laser, which is just strange.

Starting dragon rush in the air seems to give it more priority. Usually goes right through projectiles instead.

I want to say it can beat Samus' super missile (green tip) in the air, but loses to it on the ground... need to test that again.
 

-LzR-

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Am I the only one who doesn't like Dragon Rush? I think it should only be used on matchups where blitz can be safely dealt with such as Rosa.

EDIT: Against Samus, always go with Blitz. The ability of making her no use missiles because of fear of Blitz is more than you could ever achieve with Rush.
 
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