Logical discussion about changing A to Jump and X/Y to Attack

[9bit]

This topic has been on my mind a lot lately.

Like many of you, I've been playing Melee since it came out. This means I have a large amount of muscle-memory burned in. About 12 years worth. Hard thing to overcome. But the thing is, A for jump seems like the best option for Smash Bros (on a GameCube controller).

Here are some pros I've come up with

• The A button is right in the middle, and is the closest button to any other button
  • It is easier to go from B to A than B to Y for example
  • This makes things like multi-shining and wave-shining easier / faster
• The A button is closer to the C-stick than Y or X, causing less thumb travel time after a jump to do a C-stick'd aerial
• The A button is big, fat, and comfortable to push (this one is personal, but I jump with Y, and the shape of that button can hurt my thumb sometimes, specifically the top ridge of it), wavedashing feels so goooood with A

Some cons

• 12 years of muscle memory make it really hard to get used to
• Certain movies are harder to do
  • Ike's Quick Draw -- it would be slightly harder to quickly do the attack out of it where you are holding the Attack button so it hits the first target it comes to (best description ever...)
  • Lucario's super giant ball thing (it's still totally possible, you can hit the Attack button a split second after the Special button, they don't have to be simultaneous)

I know at least one other member had brought this up before in one of the custom controls topic, but I'd like to hear more thoughts on this. And I know I mentioned a couple times in here the muscle memory problem, but if we factor that out completely -- if we just look at the change from a logical viewpoint, even maybe from the viewpoint of a new player that has no preconceived notions of the controls, my question is:

Does A for Jump make more sense than X / Y?

Anyway, I'm going to keep messing around with it and see if my opinion changes / strengthens over time. Pls discuss.

 

[OMalley]

well i think i may be of some use here. i'm kinda a newcomer, with less muscle memory than you, for sure. i mainly tried different controls because i had come from playing brawl on a wii-chuck a long time ago, and never used a GCC. starting out, the jump being x/y just didn't make sense to me. but i tried the a button as jumper recently, and now that i've gotten used to it, i think its helped me step my ams up a considerable amount, with all of the buttons being much more accessible. also, if your controller has R or L set to attack for DACUS, that could negate the downside of the lucario combo for sure, and maybe ike's as well.

 

[9bit]

I've been playing around with A set to attack for about an hour now and it's getting a little easier. The hardest part so far is remembering to use Y for dash attack and tilts and stuff. We'll see how it goes.

also, if your controller has R or L set to attack for DACUS, that could negate the downside of the lucario combo for sure, and maybe ike's as well.

Ah, of course! I have Z set to attack, how could I forget.

 

[Yurya]

If it were default it would be better... but its not so anytime I want to play 64, Melee, or the random times I am picking up someone else's controller It would be horrific.

 

[OMalley]

If it were default it would be better... but its not so anytime I want to play 64, Melee, or the random times I am picking up someone else's controller It would be horrific.

this isn't about transfer to other games, or picking up someone else's controller, this is about stepping your game up with this specific game. if it can make you better to change your controls, and you play this game competitively, you'll be able to customize for tourneys.

 

[Yurya]

I don't see that changing controls around can make any player better than they would be otherwise.

Besides clawing no technique/custom setup is in the end best; while some may be easier at first your full potential as a player is not dependent on your controller setup (wii-mote alone is worse but that is different).

 

[Burnsy]

I don't see that changing controls around can make any player better than they would be otherwise.

Besides clawing no technique/custom setup is in the end best; while some may be easier at first your full potential as a player is not dependent on your controller setup (wii-mote alone is worse but that is different).

Well, its all about efficiency. For example, you can become really fast at pecking a keyboard with your index fingers only, but you're always going to be at disadvantage against someone who has been typing for just as long as you have, but utilizes all of their fingers to type.

By comparison, this is a bit of an extreme example, but hopefully my point still stands. You can train yourself to thrive despite an inefficient set-up, but it doesn't mean you wouldn't have been better off developing a better technique before making it muscle memory.

That said I think it may either be too late for me, or I'm too stubborn to go back to techskill square one. At least I play lots of other fighting games, so dexterity/timing involving button presses doesn't bother me too much.

 

[Yurya]

Well, its all about efficiency. For example, you can become really fast at pecking a keyboard with your index fingers only, but you're always going to be at disadvantage against someone who has been typing for just as long as you have, but utilizes all of their fingers to type.

By comparison, this is a bit of an extreme example, but hopefully my point still stands. You can train yourself to thrive despite an inefficient set-up, but it doesn't mean you wouldn't have been better off developing a better technique before making it muscle memory.

I agree utilizing as many fingers as possible is best, but I don't think the layout matters as much for smash. I have tried out custom schemes but I found it is best to keep the default and just claw. When a game only has four inputs (attack, special, jump, and shield) and a directional stick the default arrangement is good enough if you claw.

 

[Burnsy]

You took my example too literally. I was worried about that.

 

[rapcat]

Claw grip. Problem solved yo.

 

[OMalley]

so i modified the spring in my GGC to the effect that the spring pushes just up at the hard press point, as no spring felt a little "sticky". i'm back to using trigger jumping, and its working beautifully. i still hold that the A button jump may be a better control set than default, but years of bumper jumper on halo and the like have trained me just so for this type of game.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

I don't play too many characters, so take my configuration with a grain of salt, it may not apply to all characters perfectly.

Additionally of note is that A to jump, X to Attack was my first controller reconfiguration. After 2 or so years of that, I decided upon my newest (and ultimate AFAIK, controller config)

I have Z set to jump. (hold the controller such that right pointer finger is over Z, right middle over R *recommend removing springs in both triggers*) Its awesome and satisfies all of the requirements for a good jump button. It allows ease of access to all other buttons Retreating Fairs, and Advancing Bairs are easy, sprint-jump-neutrals are easy… etc. Thats crucial IMO. Attack is still set to X (this is mostly due to the 2 years of Attack as X). I don't use X too much for aerials. C stick for aerials, X for jabs and tilts. L is set to shield. R is set to attack (for DACUS- also an important consideration for many cont configs. Y is set to grab and A is taunt because, lets face it, you need an easy button to Press after landing each Knee with falcon.

Of course, you have so much access to all buttons when jump is set to Z that you have all sorts of unused buttons on the face of the controller.

Obviously you can reconfigure the face buttons, but I seriously recommend thinking about Z as jump.

The advantage of Z as jump is no motion is required between jump and attack, special or C stick. This is that millisecond advantage or increase in consistency that is better than A as jump. Additionally of note. This allows you (makes it easier) to take tap jump off without any negative effects. You can jump cancel everything with Z as jump. jump cancelling an Up-B OoS would be more taxing with a face button as jump. With Z as jump, your finger can be already over B and waiting.

Addition: Some responses in this thread have stated that controller configurations don't improve player ability. While this might be technically true, as far as I am concerned, it allows a mediocre player to be incredibly consistent with MUCH less effort. I have taken it upon myself to optimize control schemes across all games I play (changed my hotkeys for Starcraft 2, best thing I ever did for improvement). I believe its analogous to using unwieldy tools in a workplace. You don't need a sledgehammer to hit a nail for a picture, and you don't want a pair of scissors for a hedge. Optimize your scheme and improving is easier.

 

[DrinkingFood]

*recommend removing springs in both triggers*)

how do you plan on using light shield when PMBR gets it working?

 

[Kankato]

My control scheme for the Classic Controller (lol no one ever uses it, with good reason) involved B as Jump, A as attack, Y as special, and X as grab.
It allows access to C-stick easily, SHB is easier without having to dart across the pad, and Lucario EX moves aren't too effected because they don't require rapid repetition like lasers do.
Refresher on buttons:
X
Y A
B

 

[Kor of Memory]

I've done this since brawl came out.

A and B are both Jump
Y is Attack
X is Special
L and LZ is Shield
R and RZ is Grab

I figure I can jump and attack or jump and special, but either way, I always have the base of my thumb on jump, with the tip of it on some kind of attack.

I experimented a bit with turning A into Grab, I try it every now and again, but I end up going back to the setup above before too long.

 

[chaosscizzors]

i like this idea a lot. i could see this being useful for the non tap jumpers out there (maybe). back in brawl i played around with having tap jump turned off and i taught myself to perform OoS options with the y button. the only real issue was moving my finger from y to b in such a short time. not TOO difficult to perform consistently, but still slightly error prone. now with PM there's no buffer, making such an input even more challenging. with your set up it would likely be much much easier and you don't need to change and triggers to accommodate yourself.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I have no tap jump, x set to grab, y as my jump, z is grab and R is jump, though I never use them (z and r, that is).

WAY back in the day I had the nunchuck:
c: jump
z: shield
d pad: smashes
a: attack
1: grab
2: grab
1/2: grab
Shake Smash: on
Tap Jump: Off

(wish the minus button did something)

 

[esoterics]

I'd suggest putting jump on one of the shoulder buttons (L=Shield, R=Grab, Z=Jump for GCC; ZL=Shield, ZR=Grab, R=Jump for CCP). It works really well for me.