Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[8MAN]

Near the ledge, a possible set up could be:
FF Nair > D-tilt > Dair Spike
Though realistically speaking, the probability of landing a dair spike on somebody via d-tilt, is close to impossible (unless you're playing FG scrubs).

Edit: Even though U-tilt is the better move (by a landslide) D-tilt's launch angle is much more favorable for aerial follow ups, seeing as the opponent will always be popped up in front of Link no matter where they DI. U-tilt follow ups can be much harder to land due to how opponents can DI away from Link, if they are caught with the back hit of U-tilt.

 

[Naroghin]

Or have conditioned them to air dodge ASAP, meaning you could time the dair for when they come out of it.

 

[8MAN]

Or have conditioned them to air dodge ASAP, meaning you could time the dair for when they come out of it.

If you ever manage to get footage of the nair > d-tilt > dair, let me know lol
But otherwise, I feel like this wouldn't be incredibly effective against any good players tbh.

 

[Naroghin]

Certainly not, but it would be piles upon piles of styles and styles!

Edit: Did some testing with this particular string and it has quite a bit stacked up against it. Nair is out as a setup, as putting the enemy close enough to the edge to actually spike them means that a landed nair would tumble them over the edge, even at %0. I landed the combo with the most consistency this way but could never actually get a spike out of it. Jab cancel seems to work just fine, with the added benefit that it can be done over the edge, meaning a possible dtilt spike (unlikely) and works at higher percents. The only problem is that dtilt's knockback at any percent where you could get a reasonable spike is too great for this to really work unless your opponent DI's correctly but does nothing else. The only times I managed a "spike," the opponent was able to act and get back onstage before I was done with the dair animation, so it seems like we can't even use this to at least surprise the opponent and force an edgeguard/stage spike. So it looks like onstage we can probably get nair>dtilt>dair spike>FF the same dair at early percents if they don't tech, so hey, that's something I guess.

 

[Rizen]

IDK if we can reliably string Dtilt into anything because it starts frame 13. For reference Dsmash starts frame 9.

 

[KenMeister]

IDK if we can reliably string Dtilt into anything because it starts frame 13. For reference Dsmash starts frame 9.

Ewwww, it's THAT slow? Like, slower than ftilt? And honestly, dtilt would be useful if it had lower base knockback or something (so it could lead into an aerial), instead of losing its situational spike and just....being there.

 

[Elessar]

Dtilt is an useless move. It's too situational and impractical. You can use it vs scrubs to feel good about yourself, but there is no point in using it in a tournament because there are other better moves you could be doing.

 

[Zelkam]

Personally, I don't feel like Dtilts role has changed one bit. I think the development team realized that the only thing we ever used Dtilt for was the occasional spike and so they decided to make it easier to land and then changed it to a meteor to prevent it from being OP (because Link is such an OP character ammirite?). Onstage its still just as worthless. Its still slow, it has horrible knockback now, and I simply don't see any reason to use it.

One thing I found interesting while playing around with it last night was that I was able to get the meteor on Mario during the one frame of vulnerability during ledge grab. So if you're confident with your timing you could try for that.

 

[Rizen]

So I was playing around with Dtilt a little bit and here's my theory on how it's been changed. (Hopefully @ Rizen doesn't mind me stealing and doctoring up his image)

So originally, hitboxes 1 and 3 were the ones that would spike, but the spike wouldn't happen unless you connected with only one of those hiboxes. So, for example, if you connected with both hitboxes 2 and 3 then it wouldn't spike.

I tested this and am pretty sure it's still the #3 bubble, not #2.

Dtilt registers as a combo to SH>immediately aerial spin attack at <40%ish so that's something.
It doesn't lead to Nair locks.

 

[Elessar]

Personally, I don't feel like Dtilts role has changed one bit. I think the development team realized that the only thing we ever used Dtilt for was the occasional spike and so they decided to make it easier to land and then changed it to a meteor to prevent it from being OP (because Link is such an OP character ammirite?). Onstage its still just as worthless. Its still slow, it has horrible knockback now, and I simply don't see any reason to use it.

One thing I found interesting while playing around with it last night was that I was able to get the meteor on Mario during the one frame of vulnerability during ledge grab. So if you're confident with your timing you could try for that.

I was told in the main patch thread that it wasn't changed to a meteor but that it's actually still a spike, just that an extremely weak one.

 

[Zelkam]

I tested this and am pretty sure it's still the #3 bubble, not #2.

If it was still number three then we should still be able to spike characters hanging from the ledge like we could, though. So how does that work? :/

I was told in the main patch thread that it wasn't changed to a meteor but that it's actually still a spike, just that an extremely weak one.

But it can be meteor canceled. Doesn't that make it a meteor?

 

[Rizen]

If it was still number three then we should still be able to spike characters hanging from the ledge like we could, though. So how does that work? :/

IDK but you can try it; set the opponent to jump and you can spike them with the 3 bubble. Keep in mind that pic was from Brawl so they may have move the hitbubbles and raised it a bit.

 

[DUKEL]

I believe it meteors at 100%? It's a scaling spike to a meteor I believe.

And as to where the hitbox is, in my own testing it's been on the front half of the sword. (I used Zelkam's stage and stood on the very edge of the platform with slopes, set the cpu to jump on the platform underneath)

 

[Elessar]

But it can be meteor canceled. Doesn't that make it a meteor?

No idea just saying what someone else said.

 

[Zelkam]

Geez, this is worse than when we were trying to figure out how Dtilt worked in brawl >.<

 

[DarkDeity15]

Bomb bair walls seem pretty underrated as well imo. It's pretty good when it comes to spacing because the bomb covers you pretty well. Especially if you retreat after dropping the bomb. It makes Bair pretty safe that way I feel.

Opinions?

 

[SmashFactorCiti]

Use up b from the ledge to kill is very good, you fast fall to doom and then recover with up b direct to the blast zone it usually kills at 100%

I can't get good at using bombs in close range, any tips?

 

[Rizen]

I can't get good at using bombs in close range, any tips?

First off, edit your post instead of double posting next time. It saves forum space and keeps the threads from being cluttered.
The thing to remember with bombs is if they hit the opponent the explosion will not hurt you. So don't worry about that and be as close as you like. Smaller characters sometimes can duck under bombs; using bombs close is less effective vs small characters than medium-large. You can throw a bomb Out of Shield (OoS) and that's a good way to get close safely. Another way is to move in the air while throwing the bomb to drift closer. If the bomb hits be ready to follow up with an attack while the opponent is stunned.

 

[Siledh]

First off, edit your post instead of double posting next time. It saves forum space and keeps the threads from being cluttered.
The thing to remember with bombs is if they hit the opponent the explosion will not hurt you. So don't worry about that and be as close as you like. Smaller characters sometimes can duck under bombs; using bombs close is less effective vs small characters than medium-large. You can throw a bomb Out of Shield (OoS) and that's a good way to get close safely. Another way is to move in the air while throwing the bomb to drift closer. If the bomb hits be ready to follow up with an attack while the opponent is stunned.

This. Also use soft-throw bombs a lot to edgeguard and protect your approach. I know it's not really close range, but there we go.

I find the jump throw works really well against smaller characters. Bomb just sails right into them. I'll be honest, I know bombs are our big thing, but I always end up forgetting about them and using them more as a defensive measure rather than offensive. Another thing I need to work on.

 

[Zelkam]

No idea just saying what someone else said.

Did some research last night and Dtilt I'd definitely a meteor now. Apparently the main thing that decides whether a move is a spike or a meteor is the launch angle. Because Dtilt launches the opponent straight down now, that makes it a meteor.

 

[KenMeister]

Did some research last night and Dtilt I'd definitely a meteor now. Apparently the main thing that decides whether a move is a spike or a meteor is the launch angle. Because Dtilt launches the opponent straight down now, that makes it a meteor.

Meteor as in it can meteor cancelled (because meteors are kinda funky in Smash 4), or is a strong enough meteor to be an equivalent of a spike?

 

[Siledh]

Is there much to be done with the Dash Up Throw? Or would the lag not make it worthwhile?

I mean, I can see it being useful for mindgames: condition someone to expect a bombslide, but Dash Up Throw > DJ Nair/Fair/Dair (maybe Zair? [only tried Nair, Fair and Dair]) to catch > Throw. There's not a lot of time left on the time so it could be used for spacing, mind games, or a quick hit if you're lucky. Tested it on FD and sometimes I landed, other times I was able to throw the bomb before landing. But at least it would reduce their ability to read the bombslide as accurately.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Is there much to be done with the Dash Up Throw? Or would the lag not make it worthwhile?

I mean, I can see it being useful for mindgames: condition someone to expect a bombslide, but Dash Up Throw > DJ Nair/Fair/Dair (maybe Zair? [only tried Nair, Fair and Dair]) to catch > Throw. There's not a lot of time left on the time so it could be used for spacing, mind games, or a quick hit if you're lucky. Tested it on FD and sometimes I landed, other times I was able to throw the bomb before landing. But at least it would reduce their ability to read the bombslide as accurately.

I'm kinda having trouble understanding what you're getting at here, but if you're talking about using a JC Uthrown bomb as a mind game when an opponent thinks you'll perform a bombslide, I dunno how that would be of much use. Not only would that take a lot of conditioning, but you probably won't get anything out of it, especially against decent players. They can punish a poorly spaced bombslide towards them with more than just laggy moves, so using it to bait is pretty pointless. You're better off just running up to them and rolling back or spot-dodging if you want to bait something like that. Though yeah, that could be a good way to keep them guessing on whether you'll bombslide or not.

 

[Siledh]

I'm kinda having trouble understanding what you're getting at here, but if you're talking about using a JC Uthrown bomb as a mind game when an opponent thinks you'll perform a bombslide, I dunno how that would be of much use. Not only would that take a lot of conditioning, but you probably won't get anything out of it, especially against decent players. They can punish a poorly spaced bombslide towards them with more than just laggy moves, so using it to bait is pretty pointless. You're better off just running up to them and rolling back or spot-dodging if you want to bait something like that. Though yeah, that could be a good way to keep them guessing on whether you'll bombslide or not.

It's not a JC Up Throw, as far as I understand it. If you dash and then input an Up Throw, Link will come to an immediate halt and fling the bomb pretty high up. No need to input a jump at all. It basically looks like a bombslide which doesn't have any forward momentum.

As the only lag is the Up Throw animation, this allows Links more time to jump for the bomb and doesn't leave him as open as the normal Dash Throw.

 

[DarkDeity15]

It's not a JC Up Throw, as far as I understand it. If you dash and then input an Up Throw, Link will come to an immediate halt and fling the bomb pretty high up. No need to input a jump at all. It basically looks like a bombslide which doesn't have any forward momentum.

As the only lag is the Up Throw animation, this allows Links more time to jump for the bomb and doesn't leave him as open as the normal Dash Throw.

But then why should you need to perform that when you could just JC Uthrow before the dash animation starts?

However, this reminds me. I remember being able to bombslide more easily by inputting attack anywhere in the "stopping" animation that happens when you're coming to a stop from a fox trot. So yeah, I think bomb sliding out of a fox trot can be pretty good for catching opponents off guard.

Imagine just fox trotting away from your opponent, turning around with a dance trot and then suddenly bomb sliding towards them for a supprise approach. Kinda reminds me of dash dancing in Melee/PM in terms of purpose.

 

[Siledh]

But then why should you need to perform that when you could just JC Uthrow before the dash animation starts?

Off the top of my head, because you may not always want the slide, even the minor one from a JCT. If you always slide, then your opponent will always expect the slide. This allows for a slight mix-up, if nothing else. Purely mindgames. I see no real offensive purpose for it beyond that. You can even mask your retreat with the falling bomb or you can try for the aerial catch to throw if you want, depending on the layout of the field. Turn their read into a mistake, which will then make you harder to read and thus give you a bit more freedom.

I mean, we're rarely going to use the Dash FThrow because of the lag and how telegraphed it is. So if they see a dash and a bomb, they're going to expect the bombslide or JCT. *shrugs* But maybe it's not really that useful as a mindgame and would be easily punished. It was just a thought that came to me whilst I was playing with the bombslide.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Off the top of my head, because you may not always want the slide, even the minor one from a JCT. If you always slide, then your opponent will always expect the slide. This allows for a slight mix-up, if nothing else. Purely mindgames. I see no real offensive purpose for it beyond that. You can even mask your retreat with the falling bomb or you can try for the aerial catch to throw if you want, depending on the layout of the field. Turn their read into a mistake, which will then make you harder to read and thus give you a bit more freedom.

I mean, we're rarely going to use the Dash FThrow because of the lag and how telegraphed it is. So if they see a dash and a bomb, they're going to expect the bombslide or JCT. *shrugs* But maybe it's not really that useful as a mindgame and would be easily punished. It was just a thought that came to me whilst I was playing with the bombslide.

Dash throw isn't very laggy though, however. In fact, it's surprisingly good. Try acting right out of a dash throw and you'll see what I mean.

What you're suggesting seems to be more of a mix-up than a mindgame. Like you said, this is simply to make sure that your opponent doesn't know when to expect a bombslide approach, which pretty much defines what a mix-up is.

 

[Siledh]

Dash throw isn't very laggy though, however. In fact, it's surprisingly good. Try acting right out of a dash throw and you'll see what I mean.

What you're suggesting seems to be more of a mix-up than a mindgame. Like you said, this is simply to make sure that your opponent doesn't know when to expect a bombslide approach, which pretty much defines what a mix-up is.

Hm, seems I don't understand what a mindgame is then. I would've thought it would be making someone expect something and then doing something else? You know, messing with their reads and stuff.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Hm, seems I don't understand what a mindgame is then. I would've thought it would be making someone expect something and then doing something else? You know, messing with their reads and stuff.

Well yeah it can be that, though what you're talking about seems to lean more towards a mix-up if you think about it imo.

 

[Siledh]

Well yeah it can be that, though what you're talking about seems to lean more towards a mix-up if you think about it imo.

Fair. Think they're basically part of the same thing. Mix-ups are all part of mindgames, etc.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Fair. Think they're basically part of the same thing. Mix-ups are all part of mindgames, etc.

Yep. Tether canceling, for example. It's a mindgame in where you can fool someone into thinking that you'll recover with a tether, but you don't, which can mess with their heads and can cause them to commit to something that you can take advantage of, and it's a mix-up in that you can use it to keep an opponent guessing on how you're going to recover. It seems though that the mindgame part of what you perform stops working after a certain amount of times depending on the situation and therefore, what you perform is then solely a mix-up (though tether canceling can be used in other ways as well), if you get my drift here.

 

[Siledh]

Yep. Tether canceling, for example. It's a mindgame in where you can fool someone into thinking that you'll recover with a tether, but you don't, which can mess with their heads and can cause them to commit to something that you can take advantage of, and it's a mix-up in that you can use it to keep an opponent guessing on how you're going to recover. It seems though that the mindgame part of what you perform stops working after a certain amount of times depending on the situation and therefore, what you perform is then solely a mix-up (though tether canceling can be used in other ways as well), if you get my drift here.

Definitely. Kind of like tennis. The idea is to get your opponent into a rhythm, making them expect a hit to the same corner and then blam, short volley or whatever.

It's all mindgames, even when it loses its edge because that's when you start mixing it up and bring back in the unpredictability. Yep, Smash is Wimbledom (let's be honest, no other tennis competition matters).

 

[DarkDeity15]

Definitely. Kind of like tennis. The idea is to get your opponent into a rhythm, making them expect a hit to the same corner and then blam, short volley or whatever.

It's all mindgames, even when it loses its edge because that's when you start mixing it up and bring back in the unpredictability. Yep, Smash is Wimbledom (let's be honest, no other tennis competition matters).

Well yeah, basically. Although I know nothing about competitive tennis lol. There's some exceptions to that rule though. Some things can be a mindgame without being a mix-up. Like twirling around at the edge while your opponent is recovering. It's sole purpose is to fool someone into making a mistake, which you can then take advantage of. Literally all it is is a mindgame. Those types of mindgames don't always work though, rendering them useless at times.

Lol, I really went in depth there. I didn't even know it was possible to learn something from your self. XD. I guess I just never thought about it consciously.

 

[Rizen]

I've been thinking about what Link's best option after ledge trumping is. It's either ledge hop Bair or drop from the ledge>reverse upB covers most things if the opponent can't stall offstage or use a fast disjointed recovery like Marth's.

 

[Dumbfire]

I've been thinking about what Link's best option after ledge trumping is. It's either ledge hop Bair or drop from the ledge>reverse upB covers most things if the opponent can't stall offstage or use a fast disjointed recovery like Marth's.

You can just react them too, if they jump you can Uair them or you can wait for them to get back to the lege, without invinciblity that time. That gets more and more necessary the worse the ledge trump timing.

 

[Nimious]

I've been thinking about what Link's best option after ledge trumping is. It's either ledge hop Bair or drop from the ledge>reverse upB covers most things if the opponent can't stall offstage or use a fast disjointed recovery like Marth's.

In some match-ups after ledge trumping, ledge hop Dair is the best option. Against Captain Falcon for example I try for it most of the time.

 

[smashbrotherlink]

I've been thinking about what Link's best option after ledge trumping is. It's either ledge hop Bair or drop from the ledge>reverse upB covers most things if the opponent can't stall offstage or use a fast disjointed recovery like Marth's.

I don't know if this is Link's best option, or if it is even a viable option, but what about throwing your boomerang towards center stage then running off the edge and ledge trumping your opponent so that they pop up and back off of the ledge, and are then carried away by the windbox of your returning boomerang

 

[Rizen]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Those are all good ideas.

I don't know if this is Link's best option, or if it is even a viable option, but what about throwing your boomerang towards center stage then running off the edge and ledge trumping your opponent so that they pop up and back off of the ledge, and are then carried away by the windbox of your returning boomerang

Another thing similar to this Link could do from a ledge trump is drop>boomerang toward the stage to 'gale guard' so the wind blows the opponent away> upB back to the ledge.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Those are all good ideas.

Another thing similar to this Link could do from a ledge trump is drop>boomerang toward the stage to 'gale guard' so the wind blows the opponent away> upB back to the ledge.

Yeah but since they aren't stuck in the ledge trump animation foe very long, they could easily air dodge to avoid being blown too far off stage. So this could very well just be an irritant to decent players and nothing else, though I could very well be wrong.

 

[Rizen]

Yeah but since they aren't stuck in the ledge trump animation foe very long, they could easily air dodge to avoid being blown too far off stage. So this could very well just be an irritant to decent players and nothing else, though I could very well be wrong.

That's true but it applies to most ledge trump options since Link doesn't have an guaranteed followups. I think his ledge trump options are character dependent. Against characters like Ike with bad recoveries or purely vertical recoveries the wind can be good.