Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Xephilon]

@ Xephilon are you saying Bair 1st hit>land upB or Bair 1st hit in the air>DI in so 2nd hit misses>aerial upB?

Bair 1st hit -> Up B is possible since 1st hit has a set knockback up but I don't know. I haven't tested that one out yet but thanks for the idea <_<.

What I mean is short hop full Bair (1st and 2nd hit) -> Aerial Up B before you touch the ground.

 

[Sabaca]

You can even do double bair to aerial upb in some cases wich is an 30% combo.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Just tested this. It's legit. Just SH Bair while drifitng towards them, after the second hit connects use aerial Up-B (such that you turn around to face them) and it combos into it. You just have to be close-ish when you Bair. Obviously going to be a bit character and percent specific, but it's quite solid and racks up nice damage. Fast fallers are definitely an issue, and also just very small characters. Basically, against someone like DK is your best bet.
Oh and let's not forget that aerial Up-B kills fairly early over by the edge. Bair bringing them closer to the edge and then comboing into it? Yes please. It stops working on some characters at Up-B kill percents, but still XD.

 

[Xephilon]

You can even do double bair to aerial upb in some cases wich is an 30% combo.

I tried this but I never got it to work. Well, better said, it RARELY worked. I rather be sure that I can do it because if I miss my Up B, im sure im gonna get punished hard.

Just tested this. It's legit. Just SH Bair while drifitng towards them, after the second hit connects use aerial Up-B (such that you turn around to face them) and it combos into it. You just have to be close-ish when you Bair. Obviously going to be a bit character and percent specific, but it's quite solid and racks up nice damage. Fast fallers are definitely an issue, and also just very small characters. Basically, against someone like DK is your best bet.
Oh and let's not forget that aerial Up-B kills fairly early over by the edge. Bair bringing them closer to the edge and then comboing into it? Yes please. It stops working on some characters at Up-B kill percents, but still XD.

Wait, so no one has posted this before? I actually contributed to this board for once? xD
Anyway, yeah you have to keep drifitng towards them and the closeness of the bair is more forgiving the lower your rage and the lower your opponents percent is. For fast fallers it still works, just like at the start of the battle. You can't have barely any rage and they can't have barely any damage. Didn't try it much with Sheik so ima have to check that later. As for mid height/heavy characters you can do small variations like:
Boomerang (has to be somewhat close) -> Bair -> Up B for 30%
Bomb -> Bair -> Up B for 28-30% too but there's a slight pause in the string between bomb and Bair.

Wait no never mind. Doesn't work on fast fallers. They have to be in the air in order for this to work. Against Sheik, it works just like it did on Marth if you happen to catch her in the air.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Wait, so no one has posted this before? I actually contributed to this board for once? xD

lol. I don't remember if it's ever been posted before. I'm sure that someone will come forward if it has though. Regardless of whether it has been said before or not, I consider it contributing so long as it's not incorrect or bleedingly obvious XD, so yes, this is a contribution. Good job.

 

[Xephilon]

Senpai noticed me!
For real tho, I'm trying to come up with new things using Luigi or Link. Up till now, that's what I've gotten. The rest already have been mentioned. This is the only one where I haven't anyone discuss it so I thought I should post it. If I get any new findings I'll bring em here. All this just to make amends for the guide mistake that I made xD

 

[Rizen]

I found something useful for specific MUs. Link can't whiplash in hitstun like Brawl but he can whiplash wind and water pushes. Just tap Z or grab if you're within ledge tethering distance and Link will tether the ledge regardless of how strong the wind is. An interesting thing to note is if the wind is very strong and you immediately retract the tether and do a ledge get up option some of the push will remain and push Link off again; to prevent this wait a second before climbing up.
Whiplashing is useful for MU like Mario, especially if he has the custom 'gust cape' which scales with damage.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I honestly have at seen any discussion on tether canceled bomb shining, so what do you guys think? Check it out in the advanced techniques thread (AT #8) if you haven't done so already. For one, if you combine this with meteor bombs then it's pretty godly.

 

[TropicalTaco]

Running bomb throw, down tilt, fair, seems to be a true 4 hit combo at 0%. It does 35%.

Not sure how widely known this is or if it's been discussed, but I thought I'd share. I just discovered this today.

 

[link and ike lover]

@ Sabaca Yo this is Fierce Deity Link from Nintendodojo (Allisbrawl) ladder.

 

[link7]

Running bomb throw, down tilt, fair, seems to be a true 4 hit combo at 0%. It does 35%.

Not sure how widely known this is or if it's been discussed, but I thought I'd share. I just discovered this today.

So I tested it out. On Mario, it does 25%, depending on the way he DI's. I also think that he might be able to DJ after the Dtilt. Needs more lab work, but good find regardless.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

People throw out the term 'true combo' way too easily. Oh it registered as a consecutive hit in training mode? - 'true combo'. Well no not really. A true combo (essentially) means that it cannot be escaped ever no matter what you do because that's the way the game was designed (have a look at the definitions in the smash dictionary, they are far more precise). The consecutive hit counter in training mode simply means that the character being hit was still in hitstun (with some special exceptions that don't matter right now) when the next move connected.

The Fair can be avoided every time by DIing the D-tilt either up or away from Link or somewhere between the two depending on the character. It can however be considered a 'combo' because it needs to be DI'd/SDI'd properly in order to avoid it if Link executes it perfectly. And 35% is no joke so still worth mentioning of course. I'd recommend doing a JC throw instead of a dash throw as it is much less laggy.

 

[TropicalTaco]

I know what a true combo is, and my use of the word "seems" in that post was very deliberate, as I tested it only briefly. You're correct to say that "combo" is a more fitting word for it.

As for JC throws being less laggy than dashing throws, I'd say you're correct on that, as well. Though saying they're "much" less laggy is a bit of an exaggeration. Link's running item throw animation recovers extremely quickly in this iteration of Smash compared to previous ones. Is it faster than JC throwing? I don't think so, but the frame difference between them is very small. The other thing is that JC throwing halts all of Link's forward momentum, whereas the running bomb throw animation has Link continuing to move forward a couple steps even as he tosses the bomb. For combos, grounded rushdown, and gap-closing, I'd say the running bomb throw is almost indisputably better.

I agree with you that JC throwing is the better tech overall, just so you know. The running bomb throw is only useful for offensive play, whereas the JC throw accommodates both offensive and defensive play.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

For combos, grounded rushdown, and gap-closing, I'd say the running bomb throw is almost indisputably better.

I agree with you that JC throwing is the better tech overall, just so you know. The running bomb throw is only useful for offensive play, whereas the JC throw accommodates both offensive and defensive play.

That's actually a fair point. I mean if you know that the bomb will hit and you don't have to worry about spacing or being shield grabbed etc because you want to get in close, then sure, dash throw is probably better. I'll make a note of that when I eventually get time to catch up on the updating of the OP. I really haven't been using dash throw at all; old habits die hard.

Edit: Interestingly enough, this buff to Link's dash throw in smash 4 was not granted to Toon.

 

[Elessar]

How about doing bombslide instead of a dash throw or a jc throw? You retain the forward momentum and there is virtually no end lag to it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well that's better still, assuming we're talking about the bombslide up-throw fake out. It makes you slide in nice and close, but importantly, it has the lag of an up-throw, which is noticeably quicker.

Looks like you're the winner XD.

 

[Elessar]

Well that's better still, assuming we're talking about the bombslide up-throw fake out. It makes you slide in nice and close, but importantly, it has the lag of an up-throw, which is noticeably quicker.

Looks like you're the winner XD.

Thanks, I'll be having my cookie to go please.

To he honest, I'm surprised nobody thought of it before. And I did mean the fake out, since that's the only one I can pull off consistently...

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yes, well, if I were to make excuses for myself it would simply be that most of my experience is with, ah, let's just say 'different equipment' XD.

The precision with the joystick required to get the backwards variations of the bomb slide is really stupid in this game. Like, even in lab conditions, it's silly how difficult it is to make it work.

 

[TropicalTaco]

How about doing bombslide instead of a dash throw or a jc throw? You retain the forward momentum and there is virtually no end lag to it.

If you can consistently pull it off then yeah, that'd be a better option. The timing is too strict for my tastes to try to incorporate it for anything, personally.

 

[Elessar]

I can consistently do the uthrow fakeout, so it's a good option. I used to struggle a bit, but not anymore, specially since changing to the grab button rather than the cstick as Fox suggested once.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If you want to do it the super easy way, change Y to grab and roll your thumb down to A. I can consistently and deliberately do the Up-throw and Up-throw fake out methods by simply altering my timing.

 

[TropicalTaco]

Would the X button also work?

Edit: Gonna test this out.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Sure. All that's required is two separate throwing inputs and the joystick being moved quickly upwards in time to be there for the second input and bam, you're bombsliding like a pro.

 

[link7]

Hey Foxy, how would you feel about a separate thread involving button layouts? I think that would come in handy.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey Foxy, how would you feel about a separate thread involving button layouts? I think that would come in handy.

I dunno. I've never considered it before. I mean, to what end? Tell people to set their c-stick to attack, tell people to set either x or y to grab, try to convince people to set a shoulder button to jump, or if they're really edgy do what I did and switch jump and grab. I think Volcanic Doomfire or someone was saying that they had interesting controls. What did you have in mind?

 

[link7]

I dunno. I've never considered it before. I mean, to what end? Tell people to set their c-stick to attack, tell people to set either x or y to grab, try to convince people to set a shoulder button to jump, or if they're really edgy do what I did and switch jump and grab. I think Volcanic Doomfire or someone was saying that they had interesting controls. What did you have in mind?

It's to give people ideas about button layouts. Say something isn't working for them in their control scheme, and they want to try some set ups. They go to the thread, read over some button layouts, and fiddle with their own controls until they find one that suits their needs. It's not a list of recommended set ups, but a personal list of set ups that people would post. Could be the place where people mention that they've made subtle changes, and allows others to get a feel for that change, and see if it helps their game or not.
Just thought I'd throw the idea out there, mainly because I thought it'd be nice to have all the layouts that people post in one thread.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It's to give people ideas about button layouts. Say something isn't working for them in their control scheme, and they want to try some set ups. They go to the thread, read over some button layouts, and fiddle with their own controls until they find one that suits their needs. It's not a list of recommended set ups, but a personal list of set ups that people would post. Could be the place where people mention that they've made subtle changes, and allows others to get a feel for that change, and see if it helps their game or not.
Just thought I'd throw the idea out there, mainly because I thought it'd be nice to have all the layouts that people post in one thread.

Well it's certainly not a thread I'd lock, so if you want to make it feel free.
Come to think of it, I did have a control scheme I was randomly messing with to make IZACs easier, but I'll save that info for the thread should you choose to create it.

 

[link7]

Well it's certainly not a thread I'd lock, so if you want to make it feel free.
Come to think of it, I did have a control scheme I was randomly messing with to make IZACs easier, but I'll save that info for the thread should you choose to create it.

Okay cool. I'll make it later today.

 

[Drigo Toes]

I have to add to the discussion of the bombslide Fakeout, that with normal input is easy to do if you consider that you have to be more precise than brawl. That idea given to me in the Wheo's video threat help me a lot.

 

[Knife8193]

I feel like sometimes regular running bomb throw is sometimes underrated. It only has a couple more frames of lag at best than a JCT throw and moves you forward more.

Although yeah, bombsliding seems better, if I could consistently do it. I end up bombing myself more than its worth.

 

[Elessar]

I feel like sometimes regular running bomb throw is sometimes underrated. It only has a couple more frames of lag at best than a JCT throw and moves you forward more.

Although yeah, bombsliding seems better, if I could consistently do it. I end up bombing myself more than its worth.

To avoid that, try doing the bombslide with grab rather than the cstick. That is dash, grab, up+attack. Since you're not hitting down the worst it'll happen if that you'll get a jc throw.

 

[Rizen]

While testing the tragedy of the latest patch on Link I discovered something useful about forward bomb throws. If you throw at the opponent, bombs will always launch them away at a 70ish degree angle (moving the opposite side the bomb hit) unless a certain condition is met. So at low %s (0-20ish) Link is guaranteed a bomb>jab combo and at higher %s (40-60ish) a bomb>Fair 1 combo. From 10-30ish% Link has an almost guaranteed bomb>Dash attack or Ftilt, he can also dash under the opponent and Usmash. Provided the bomb hits and you act immediately these are combos that will always work in the same situation. If the opponent shields you get an easy grab.
The condition I mentioned earlier is if the opponent is partially overlapping Link when he throws the bomb (easily done OoS) they will be launched toward link instead of away from him. This means Link gets true combos for a wide % range, even up to kill %s since Usmash and even Uair register as true combos from a bomb throw. SH upB should too on large characters.
These attack chains and combos should always work the same (% and character dependent) and not require a read other than the bomb hitting.

 

[LordXav1er]

I don't see us taking too big a blow right now with this current patch I actually think it is in the right direction overall for Smash 4. A lot of nerfing this time around tho.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok, so Jab 1 got wrecked as an option. There is currently a hole in Link's metagame that must be filled. We need to identify all our options in the situations where a Jab would have been our best or preferred option and discuss their pros and cons etc. It's entirely possible that Jabs will still be a valid option in that specific scenario, but we need to start thinking of alternatives.

 

[Sabaca]

We used to Cancel Jab1 when hitting the shield (or at least we should done that , since it was the safest option when hitting the shield with the first Jab)
Now we gotta do Jab2 cancels when hitting the shield with a Jab because it has the least lag (out of Jab1 Jab2 and Jab3) now.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Right, so should we even be doing this any more? Should we still be Jabbing shields if we are more or less committed to doing the second Jab? Throwing out a Jab always felt somewhat safe at the right distance, because it was lagless enough to let us get away with it and cover options that they took in response. But now we have to be in the one place for longer, unable to stay moving, and the lag on the Jab 2 is also greater than the old Jab 1.
But maybe you think that Jab 1 to 2 still works. (If so, how?)

There's also scenarios where you throw it out against faster characters with poor range that like to bait and punish. Can Jabs still work there? There's the scenario where we used it as a quick interrupting attack, or if we weren't sure if we'd be able to punish in time, or as a quick transition out of spam if they penetrate our spam. Will we have to start relying more on retreating options (e.g. retreating SH Zair) in these situations? We need to start thinking about what other options Link has when he finds himself in close quarters combat and then start using those options more often than we used to.

 

[Drigo Toes]

I insist in QFA (Quick Fire Arrow) as an option. We lost most of our CQC, therefore, we need to stay a little more away from our opponents. QFA has (i think) the double of the jab 1 range, so we have time to react if it is shielded. The very little stun and the good speed of QFA (i think is faster than jab 1, but has more cooldown) confuses so much when it hit, that allow us to punish afterward some mistake forced by QFA.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I insist in QFA (Quick Fire Arrow) as an option. We lost most of our CQC, therefore, we need to stay a little more away from our opponents. QFA has (i think) the double of the jab 1 range, so we have time to react if it is shielded. The very little stun and the good speed of QFA (i think is faster than jab 1, but has more cooldown) confuses so much when it hit, that allow us to punish afterward some mistake forced by QFA.

As a poking and interrupting tool, it definitely has its uses. As an anti projectile tool it's pretty amazing seeing as it cancels out other projectiles and then keeps going to hit the opponent, otherwise the larger projectile will power through the arrow and the arrow will as always keep going through to hit the opponent. I guess I'll try it out. I don't think it's our answer to the Jab being nerfed or anything, but then there is no one answer to that. What is needed is a metagame shift to act as a crutch to cover this weakness. Maybe a faster mid range game could help.

 

[Elessar]

Even if it is an answer, what about tourneys that don't allow customs?

 

[Dumbfire]

I Zair a lot more, to reset my spacing and keep the opponent at bay, and to bait. I'm utilizing mid-range a lot more, and grab too, waiting for a shield. (This helps coupled with our far better Dthrow.) That's where I'm at right now.