Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Zelkam]

Hey so I have three things I wanted to bring to everyone's attention.

The first is the fact that we can Jab out of a Run (not a Dash). Ok so it's not directly out of the run, but it's close enough. Basically, you can do any action part way through a 'skid' (which is the animation you go into when you stop running by putting the joystick in neutral or holding down). Link in particular is really good at this. Now I wonder how we could use this XD? If you need to cover a decent distance and punish something for example, you can do so by running, (holding down in preparation) skidding and Jabbing, and Jab has become an amazing punisher thanks to our new Jab tech. You can read more about doing things out of a skid here http://smashboards.com/threads/skid...-pm-crouch-canceled-runs-video-inside.368971/

Second of all, I noticed that you can do a soft throw Bomb (such that the Bomb lands on the ground without exploding) by throwing the Bomb just before you land. The timing is a bit tight as you need to throw it early enough so that the aerial throw animation is not replaced by the grounded throw animation, and you need to do it late enough so that the Bomb is thrown just before you land. This can be done by throwing it forwards or backwards and it can even be done with the c-stick. It is possible to do things like FH, Bomb Pull, Soft Throw. It does not matter if you are drifting forwards or backwards and it does not matter if you are fast falling. Anyway, look into it if you weren't aware of it already.

Finally, I just wanted to let you know that I'm currently working on giving rough estimates as to how many times you can Jab each character when doing the Jab tech. I'm not finished yet, but I thought I'd let you know. The information can be found in this main post here http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-11#post-18513196 (Note the bolded part.) and I will be updating it as I go.

There's definitely a lot of advantages to walking with Link. You can perform more actions out of walking than dashing, like you mentioned. You also getting the added benefit of holding your Hylian shield out while walking. And you're not going to be losing much speed either, Links walk is almost as fast as his dash. It take him 2 seconds to dash across FD and 2.5 seconds to walk.

The soft bomb throw while landing was already known, if I'm not mistaken. I think most people simply forgot it in favor of the easier a-stick method.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

I figured that running with Link is better than dashing, but the problem is that even if I tilt the stick slightly, but do it FAST, he sprints. It doesn't matter if I take the stick all the way to the side or not, it depends on the speed in which I do it. During a match, dashing is much easier and faster than taking the time to slowly tilt the joystick in the desired direction.

 

[Zelkam]

I figured that running with Link is better than dashing, but the problem is that even if I tilt the stick slightly, but do it FAST, he sprints. It doesn't matter if I take the stick all the way to the side or not, it depends on the speed in which I do it. During a match, dashing is much easier and faster than taking the time to slowly tilt the joystick in the desired direction.

What controller do you use? Because I know the Hori battle pad, and I've heard the Pro controller are super sensitive. It seems that tilt attacks and walking are much easier on the Gamecube controller.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

Yep, I use the pro controller, I shoulda known. Maybe the GCN controller actually IS better, I just thought it was personal preference.

 

[Elessar]

Yep, I use the pro controller, I shoulda known. Maybe the GCN controller actually IS better, I just thought it was personal preference.

It is personal preference to a degree. I for example hate the shoulder buttons in the GCC, hate that they have that stupid spring and you have to press it for miles before it registers the input. However, the control stick is less sensitive and that means that some inputs are easier to input. I use the pro as well and the sensitivity of the control stick can definitively be a pain, but I love having an extra shoulder button.

 

[Akenero]

Please tell me that the boomerang has been talked about here
God I love that thing, especially his combo with it (Throw boomerang>grab>fthrow>usmash)

 

[Rizen]

I figured that running with Link is better than dashing, but the problem is that even if I tilt the stick slightly, but do it FAST, he sprints. It doesn't matter if I take the stick all the way to the side or not, it depends on the speed in which I do it. During a match, dashing is much easier and faster than taking the time to slowly tilt the joystick in the desired direction.

I also have this problem with the pro controller.

 

[Elessar]

Please tell me that the boomerang has been talked about here
God I love that thing, especially his combo with it (Throw boomerang>grab>fthrow>usmash)

If you mean the custom one we actually haven't since it's not tourney legal and we're dedicate only to competitive play. However, I did make a post analyzing it a bit. Check it out if you want.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I think there has been a bit of confusion about my last post. When I said that Link can use his Jab almost directly "out of a Run (not a Dash)" I was using the technical terms to differentiate between the initial Dash and the Run that follows the Dash. Each have different properties. You can't skid out of the initial Dash for example, which is why it was necessary to say that it must be done out of a Run. I'm not talking about walking as fast as you can, I'm talking about hitting the joystick hard to initiate a Dash, and this Dash transitions into a Run, and then you let go of the joystick or hold down which makes the Run go into a Skid, at which point you can Jab out of the Skid well before the Skid animation has ended even though you'd expect to get a dash attack. Sorry for the confusion.

The reply you made still holds ground mind you. Link's walk/tilt-run is very fast and you can of course Jab out of that.

 

[Zane the pure]

In case it hasn't seemed apparent to anyone yet, in this game if you input fast fall and then do any move except a Z-drop and the FF will cancel.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Just wanted to let you know that I've finished the estimates. The further testing ruled out a few more characters and made a few of them less significant than we would have thought. You should check out the updates to the post here. I'm personally going to make sure I have it with me when I go to a tourney or something, but you can do what you like.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just wanted to let you know that I've finished the estimates. The further testing ruled out a few more characters and made a few of them less significant than we would have thought. You should check out the updates to the post here. I'm personally going to make sure I have it with me when I go to a tourney or something, but you can do what you like.

Two question, both are kind of tricky.

What if sine characters use customs? If I recall Zard's Rock hurl comes out faster with super armor as some pointed out. Some others have have this affect this depending on when it occurs.

I also would ask if characters are far higher than the recommended threshold, how many Jabs does Link get? Very curious on my end about this and how some characters can hopefully avoid this.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Two question, both are kind of tricky.

What if sine characters use customs? If I recall Zard's Rock hurl comes out faster with super armor as some pointed out. Some others have have this affect this depending on when it occurs.

I also would ask if characters are far higher than the recommended threshold, how many Jabs does Link get? Very curious on my end about this and how some characters can hopefully avoid this.

I haven't tested with customs, but I'll look into Charizard's for you when I get a chance.
If a character is on a much higher percent they will obviously get Jabbed less, but it won't save you much if at all in terms of what percent you'll be taken to. So for example, Charizard will be taken to kill percents even if the Jabs are started more towards the kill percents. There are a lot of factors to keep in mind that simply aren't fully taken into account in the estimates given. If Link is on a higher percent himself his Jabs will do more knockback due to rage and so the starting percent will drop but the ending percent will also drop. The estimates are just my best attempt to give a rough idea what to expect and can and will vary, in some cases possibly even significantly.

Ok, @ #HBC | Red Ryu , I looked into it and it seems that the custom Rock Hurl does in fact help. It starts helping from around 69% on a fresh Jab. On a stale Jab it would be slightly later as you'd be hit up less high which would mean that the landing lag would still get in the way. It will help up until around 145% at which point the hitstun is simply too much to be of any realistic help, but something tells me you're not too worried about that XD. I'll add this info to the main post. So as a Charizard main, you'd want to try to shield for the earlier part in case the Link main messes up the timing, and then later, if you have the custom side-b, start trying to use that.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Just got to play Sm4sh U after a long while (and yeah, I finally got the game myself, but still no wifi). Link's FF bair and nair are insanely fast, as always.

He has a pretty huge advantage against most slow characters like Ganon. You can go full aggro and pressure them with jabs, Zairs, FF fairs, nairs and bairs (you can fly straight over someone's shield with a nair or bair if your timing and spacing is on point to avoid getting shieldgrabbed, or you can just land behind them) and they wouldn't be able to do much, because Link is just too fast lol. Combine that with bombs bouncing off of their shields and they're in for a nightmare. Characters with bad/predictable recoveries are also at a huge disadvantage/risk, because Link is a gimping machine. He's freaking amazing offstage.

I'd also like to add that Link's ability to be aggressive in this game has become a pretty big part of my playstyle. I'd even say that I spend a lot more time on the offensive than being defensive. However I will admit that my level of aggressiveness can vary on the MU and situation in a match, unless of course my opponent isn't very good.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Just got to play Sm4sh U after a long while (and yeah, I finally got the game myself, but still no wifi). Link's FF bair and nair are insanely fast, as always.

He has a pretty huge advantage against most slow characters like Ganon. You can go full aggro and pressure them with jabs, Zairs, FF fairs, nairs and bairs (you can fly straight over someone's shield with a nair or bair if your timing and spacing is on point to avoid getting shieldgrabbed, or you can just land behind them) and they wouldn't be able to do much, because Link is just too fast lol. Combine that with bombs bouncing off of their shields and they're in for a nightmare. Characters with bad/predictable recoveries are also at a huge disadvantage/risk, because Link is a gimping machine. He's freaking amazing offstage.

I'd also like to add that Link's ability to be aggressive in this game has become a pretty big part of my playstyle. I'd even say that I spend a lot more time on the offensive than being defensive. However I will admit that my level of aggressiveness can vary on the MU and situation in a match, unless of course my opponent isn't very good.

I can pretty much agree with everything you said. I do feel like the new dash attack hurts his aggressive advantage game a little though. I used to think it was his best dash attack by far, but after playing for awhile my opinion has changed. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great move, and Links can go aggro now, that's a fact. But there are just so many situations where I can't follow up or can't keep myself in melee range because of the new da..

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think they just patched out the jab locks link had that were just discovered. lol.

Can someone check for me.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

No way... If so, my deepest condolences go out to fox is secretly deceptive. He put so much work into this...

 

[Himura Kenshin]

I swear they better not, just based on principle alone. They'll continue giving characters stun moves, a partner, guaranteed combos, kill throws, etc. but they'll take out what helps Link even the playing field? What about his jab cancel in general? That's how Link gets his ko's, this means that will be patched too.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you can do it manually instead of at an angle with the stick on the 3DS, it might still be possible, but doing jabs while tilting the stick doesn't work anymore.

His jab cancels still work, just it might be Jab>crouch>Jab is gone. Someone mentioned they tried to do Jab>crouch>Jab but it was doing Ftilt now.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

What about everyone else? Do their combos still work?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What about everyone else? Do their combos still work?

More or less.

I think they just made it so Link can't jab people 100 times in a row.

Still I wanna see if people can test if it is 100% gone, people who tested it on the 3DS said it was.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

So the top 10's are still frustratingly cheap?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I think they just patched out the jab locks link had that were just discovered. lol.

Can someone check for me.

I just checked, it seems to be working just like it always has for me. Was there an update?

Is there like a handful of hella good ledge options for Link or do I just have to play it by ear?

Get up options. I don't play smash 4 often but when I do I'd like to know a little tech. I think I'm still better with Brawl Link lmao. And DEFINITELY better with Melee Link.

Also, what's good with throws? Dthrow isn't doing it for me anymore, everyone's jumping out before i can follow up.

Ledge stand up is good in this game. You've got one frame of invulnerability (before you can shield) and if your shield gets hit you won't get pushed off the ledge.

I believe uthrow is a pretty good setup for utilt at low %s (and by low % I mean at or below about 20%), or perperhaps even utilt strings depending on weight and fall speed. Though it might be too high, and I'm unsure if you can DJ out if that's the case. This is very difficult to lab without a partner. Could someone take over for me? @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive

I tested on Mario at 0% real quick. U-throw to U-tilt doesn't work because Mario can DJ to avoid it. But then Mario gets put up too high by the U-throw anyways, so I'll look at some other characters. Fox at 0% comes really close. That might actually work in a real game, but technically it doesn't work as Fox can either DJ or airdodge to avoid the U-tilt (and then shield before a Jab hits him if Fox does an airdodge). It's only really going to come close on the fast fallers, as heavies seem to get thrown up at around the same height.

If you can do it manually instead of at an angle with the stick on the 3DS, it might still be possible, but doing jabs while tilting the stick doesn't work anymore.

His jab cancels still work, just it might be Jab>crouch>Jab is gone. Someone mentioned they tried to do Jab>crouch>Jab but it was doing Ftilt now.

Like I've said many a time, there are two methods... I'll just copy/paste myself... one second.
"There have been two proposed ways to make Jab cancelling easier. The first is to hold diagonally backwards which allows you to Jab while crouching, and the other is to hold down with the joystick and hit diagonally down with the A-stick. Of these two methods, only the latter actually helps. If you use the diagonally down and backwards joystick method, you have to wait till Link has crouched all the way back down again before you are able to jab, otherwise a F-tilt backwards will come out. If you use the a-stick method, you can re-Jab on the very frame that Link changes to his 'I'm about to crouch' animation."
The above statement still holds true.

 

[Rizen]

Jab cancel lock I hardly knew ye. Here's lookin' at you jab cancel lock. Fill to me the parting glass. Easy come, easy go. As long as the Triforce of jab cancel lock is in my hand...
The wii u patch won't be far behind but it works for me too atm. Oh well; now I can smash with C again.

 

[link7]

Okay, so I did a little testing on the 3DS. Apparently, I was able to do the trick while holding the circle pad diagonally while facing that direction. Now, I can't do it. HOWEVER, holding the pad diagonally backwards still works.

Edit: Okay, so maybe it's just me, but it stops at 10 jabs, then you use a forward tilt. HOWEVER, if you use the second jab, you can revert back to the first one and continue the combo.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I don't have a 3ds so I can't say anything about that, but what exactly does it matter if the joystick diagonally down method doesn't work if I already said that it is the inferior method? How does this affect holding down on the joystick and using a diagonally down a-stick? Am I missing something here?

 

[ZSaberLink]

I don't have a 3ds so I can't say anything about that, but what exactly does it matter if the joystick diagonally down method doesn't work if I already said that it is the inferior method? How does this affect holding down on the joystick and using a diagonally down a-stick? Am I missing something here?

The fact that there is no 2nd stick on the 3DS (unless you have the new 3DS)? The Wii U version hasn't gotten the update yet, only the 3DS version. My guess is a Smash Wii U update is incoming.

Edit: Can you use the D-Pad as the A-stick? If so, this is testable on 3DS and it sounds like it might still work.

Okay, so I did a little testing on the 3DS. Apparently, I was able to do the trick while holding the circle pad diagonally while facing that direction. Now, I can't do it. HOWEVER, holding the pad diagonally backwards still works.

Edit: Okay, so maybe it's just me, but it stops at 10 jabs, then you use a forward tilt. HOWEVER, if you use the second jab, you can revert back to the first one and continue the combo.

10 Jabs is already a lot though... probably too much imo. I think anything more than 3-5 is still kind of broken, especially if you can just use the 2nd jab to continue it lol.

 

[link7]

I don't have a 3ds so I can't say anything about that, but what exactly does it matter if the joystick diagonally down method doesn't work if I already said that it is the inferior method? How does this affect holding down on the joystick and using a diagonally down a-stick? Am I missing something here?

That was the method I used. I think they nerfed the other way to though. Read the edited post.

EDIT: Disregard what I said. I hadn't gotten the timing down yet. Just did 30 hits on a Mario.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't have a 3ds so I can't say anything about that, but what exactly does it matter if the joystick diagonally down method doesn't work if I already said that it is the inferior method? How does this affect holding down on the joystick and using a diagonally down a-stick? Am I missing something here?

It's only on the 3DS, people said it didn't work at all which is why I asked.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

I felt like I met Link in real life. Now, I feel like someone just came up and blew Link's head off with a shotgun, then put on Diddy's hat, flipped me off, and walked away.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

So it's definitely patched out in the 3ds version though?

 

[link7]

So it's definitely patched out in the 3ds version though?

No.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

That was the method I used. I think they nerfed the other way to though. Read the edited post.

EDIT: Disregard what I said. I hadn't gotten the timing down yet. Just did 30 hits on a Mario.

30 hits on Mario is a bit much lol. I have him down as a 7 Jab character. In any case, it's nice to see some evidence that it still works on the 3ds.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

So was is jabchain not really possible now on 3ds because they took out one method and the other is not possible on 3DS or... what? I know these sort of questions are usually not tolerated on the Link Boards.. It may seem like I'm trying to get you guys to do all the work for me, but honestly I can't test this myself. I just don't have a 3ds and I'm trying to figure out if this will get patched out when the wii u patch arrives or not. I'm being genuine here...

Trust me, I'm not trying to go to Shins photobucket.. I've heard rumors...

 

[Elessar]

So was is jabchain not really possible now on 3ds because they took out one method and the other is not possible on 3DS or... what? I know these sort of questions are usually not tolerated on the Link Boards.. It may seem like I'm trying to get you guys to do all the work for me, but honestly I can't test this myself. I just don't have a 3ds and I'm trying to figure out if this will get patched out when the wii u patch arrives or not. I'm being genuine here...

Trust me, I'm not trying to go to Shins photobucket.. I've heard rumors...

It's ok to ask questions about people checking or double checking things. Sometimes we don't own the system (as in the 3DS), or don't have it handy atm, or we lack the necessary technical skills to pull of something yet, or we just want a double or triple confirmation. In these cases, when it's "help me test something" it's ok. That's not laziness but good rigorous research discipline. What we don't tolerate are spoon feeders. Link is a tough character to use, really technical, really unforgiving. There are no free wins with Link, so you have to get used to working and busting yourself.

 

[Dumbfire]

Link is not "really technical" in Smash 4 though -- no one is.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Link is not "really technical" in Smash 4 though -- no one is.

Care to explain?

 

[GabePR]

First of all this that I'm gonna say might be known and if that's the case my bad. But today I was practicing my bombslide and I was really struggling to get the timing right. This is what I was trying to do:


The afaik easiest method of doing it consistently depends on your cstick settings
SMASH: dash-> GRAB(not attack) -> c-stick up
ATTACK: dash->c-stick-> controllstick up + grab/attack


Now I found that it's way easier if you just do: Attack: dash-> c-stick ^ + control stick up + grab/attack

Like I said this might be known but I just found out and want it to share. If some of the more experienced vets wanna chek I found way easier and I found that this technique is really useful because if the opponent just shield your in front of him and you can just grab or jab .

 

[Elessar]

Does anybody have any data on the invulnerability frames we retaining once we up of the ledge? I'm asking because yesterday as I was playing Knife I timed my smashes to hit him as he got up but it whiffed through him everytime as if he was still invulnerable. I recorded one such occasion here:

I finally caught him once in our last match though, but I was under the impression that once you get up you lost all invulnerability. Was I just wrong and do we retain some invulnerability frames, or what this something off in the wifi? I'm asking because this happened consistently throughout all of our matches.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I believe that all characters have only one frame of vulnerability on their standup to shield (though I've forgotten where I read that). It looks like you swung too early. It's pretty stupid. As I said at one point in one of my earlier posts, Bombs literally cannot directly hit people that stand up from the ledge and shield (only indirect explosions do, i.e. ones that have been set off by the stage or the fuse). Even if the Bomb is inside them when they have their one frame of vulnerability, they will powershield the Bomb blast. In order to punish it with any good rate of success, you need a move with a lingering hitbox that is out and stays out when their one frame of vulnerability comes around.