Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Zelkam]

I finally got around to recording Link's knock back values. For anybody that doesn't know how this is done; I set up a match between Link and Mario with Mario's handicap at the % I wanted to test, used the attack I wanted to know the knockback of, ended the match, and looked at the 'max launcher speed'. Take this data with a grain of salt, though. It became apparent to me that this method isn't 100% accurate. For example, both the sweet and sourspot Uair at 100% had a launch speed of 53mph despite the fact that the sweetspot clearly has more knockback. My theory is that the game only records speeds in increments of ∽13 and anything in-between gets rounded to the nearest increment. With that in mind, here's the data I collected:

note: you can click on the headers to sort the table by that column

Legend
C=charged
PB=point blank
T=tipped
S=strong hit
W=weak hit
M=meteor smash

Attack Used | 50% | 100% |150%
Jab 1 |13 | 13 | 13
Jab 2 | 13 | 13 | 13
Jab 3 | 26 | 39 | 39
Ftilt | 39 | 67 | 80
Dtilt | 39 | 53 | 67
Dtilt M |39 | 53 |67
Utilt | 39 | 53 | 80
Fsmash 1 | 13 | 13 | 13
Fsmash 1 C | 13 | 13 | 26
Fsmash 1 T | 39 | 67 | 93
Fsmash 1 T C | 53 | 93 | 120
Fsmash 2 | 53 | 80 | 93
Fsmash 2 C | 67 | 93 | 120
Dsmash 1 PB | 39 | 67 | 93
Dsmash 1 PB C | 67 | 93 | 134
Dsmash 1 T | 39 | 53 | 80
Dsmash 1 T C | 53 | 80 | 106
Dsmash 2 PB | 39 | 53 | 67
Dsmash 2 PB C | 39 | 53 | 67
Dsmash 2 T | 39 | 53 | 67
Dsmash 2 T C | 53 | 67 | 80
Usmash | 53 | 67 | 80
Usmash C | 67 | 80 | 106
Dash Attack PB | 53 | 67 | 93
Dash Attack T | 53 | 67 | 80
Ledge Attack | 39 | 39 | 39
Nair S | 26 | 53 | 67
Nair W | 13 | 26 | 39
Fair 1 | 26 | 53 | 67
Fair 2 | 39 | 53 | 67
Bair 1 |13 | 13 | 13
Bair 2 | 39 | 39 | 53
Uair S | 39 | 53 | 80
Uair W | 26 | 53 | 67
Dair | 39 | 53 | 80
Dair M | 39 | 53 | 80
Zair | 13 | 26 | 26
Bow | 13 | 13 | 13
Bow C | 13 | 26 | 39
Boomerang S | 39 | 39 | 39
Boomerang W | 26 | 26 | 26
Bomb | 26 | 39 | 39
Spin Beginning | 39 | 67 | 80
Spin Beginning C | 53 | 80 | 106
Spin Middle | 26 | 39 | 53
Spin Middle C | 39 | 67 | 80
Spin End | 13 | 26 | 53
Spin End C | 26 | 39 | 53
Spin Aerial (final hit) | 39 | 53 | 67

In closing, here's a couple of things I found interesting:
Dsmash 1 has more knockback at the base whereas Dsmash 2 has more knockback at the tip.

It seems that despite the loading screen tip, dash attack has about the same amount of knockback no matter where you hit it. One thing that is affected, however, is the trajectory. A point blank hit sends the opponent more diagonally up, and a tipper send them more horizontally.

Fair 2 might have more knockback at lower percents, but it definitely seems to scale less than Fair 1.

The ledge attack appears to have a fixed knockback
Tested this and it actually just has extremely weak scaling

 

[Elessar]

Damn @ Zelkam , you just keep shocking me. Good job, you make us all proud.

Also, @ Ryu_Ken you need to become more active again and add this info to the OP lest is reassign this to someone more active and reliable. Hope everything's ok and your disappearance is just for being lazy though. Also, still looking for someone to take over the guide for the time being. Bringing this up because this info should go in the guide as well I think. Opinions?

 

[CaliburChamp]

This is regarding Link's custom bomb special, the Giant Bomb. I find it to be his best bomb option for set ups and traps.

Not only does it cause good damage and decent knock back but it also prevents you're opponent from approaching on the ground if its just laying there. I also found out its a good replacement for i-bombing. Even though we can't ibomb anymore we can run up and shield the explosion with bomb in hand as the opponent gets lit up by the explosion and then we can immediately Up-air for a combo finisher. It's big hit box explosion makes it easier to land this combo too. It's pretty much a guaranteed kill combo once they are at KO %.

 

[Radical Larry]

SH Z-Drop with the neutral Bombs happens to make them very effective as defensive tools now, since the Bombs are capable of absorbing many ranged attacks, like Fully Charged Samus' Charge Shot, as well as Lucario's Aura Sphere. No matter the damage, if the Bomb can touch the ranged attack, it will explode and absorb the damage for you.

Of course, there are attacks it cannot block; like Thoron. I've yet to test if the Bomb can absorb projectiles when thrown at them, but I'm sure Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder cease from the bombs.

As for Link's meteor bombs, the range on them are quite comforting if used correctly, even if they have a shorter fuse. Having the only ranged meteor smash in the game, in terms of projectiles, gives Link that sense of being overpowering to the larger characters, such as Bowser and Charizard, since it's almost a guaranteed hit unless there are miscalculations. Heck, even on stage, the Meteor Bomb is good for the same reason Pikachu's Thunder Cloud is, but better; it can lead up to various attacks, combos and even finishers.

In all, Link's Bombs make him dangerous, and any one of them can work well.

As for the custom, Ripping Boomerang, even with negligible damage and range, it's good for eating up shields, and providing good setups due to the multi-hit properties it has; the attack in itself also leads up to good edge-guarding tools if your reflexes and timing can be correct, and trying to think outside the box makes the once-negligible Ripping Boomerang a better tool.

 

[Zelkam]

Of course, there are attacks it cannot block; like Thoron. I've yet to test if the Bomb can absorb projectiles when thrown at them, but I'm sure Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder cease from the bombs.

Psst, look on the previous page. I made I list of all the projectiles that bombs have priority over.

 

[Elessar]

SH Z-Drop with the neutral Bombs happens to make them very effective as defensive tools now, since the Bombs are capable of absorbing many ranged attacks, like Fully Charged Samus' Charge Shot, as well as Lucario's Aura Sphere. No matter the damage, if the Bomb can touch the ranged attack, it will explode and absorb the damage for you.

Of course, there are attacks it cannot block; like Thoron. I've yet to test if the Bomb can absorb projectiles when thrown at them, but I'm sure Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder cease from the bombs.

As for Link's meteor bombs, the range on them are quite comforting if used correctly, even if they have a shorter fuse. Having the only ranged meteor smash in the game, in terms of projectiles, gives Link that sense of being overpowering to the larger characters, such as Bowser and Charizard, since it's almost a guaranteed hit unless there are miscalculations. Heck, even on stage, the Meteor Bomb is good for the same reason Pikachu's Thunder Cloud is, but better; it can lead up to various attacks, combos and even finishers.

In all, Link's Bombs make him dangerous, and any one of them can work well.

As for the custom, Ripping Boomerang, even with negligible damage and range, it's good for eating up shields, and providing good setups due to the multi-hit properties it has; the attack in itself also leads up to good edge-guarding tools if your reflexes and timing can be correct, and trying to think outside the box makes the once-negligible Ripping Boomerang a better tool.

Check this post for an analysis of all customs.

 

[Rizen]

As for Link's meteor bombs, the range on them are quite comforting if used correctly, even if they have a shorter fuse. Having the only ranged meteor smash in the game, in terms of projectiles,

There are a few others like Mega Man's Dair. Some range attacks semi-spike from the right angle like Sonic's spring and pakman's fire hydrant (iirc).

 

[Radical Larry]

Thanks, was quite a help in the end.

 

[Karaoke Man]

So, I've come to a realization of Link's tools and...kinda have for a while.

Against experienced players, "spamming projectiles" does not work at all.

Since there is relatively a decent amount of startup on a each of his tools, and can be shielded easily, it's fairly safe to say that Link is not necessarily as huge on zoning as we think he is. The tools may give him range, but that range still isn't getting him much of anywhere against players who understand how to fight it. So we need to come up with a new game plan aside from just tossing everything from the kitchen sink, at the opponent.

In other words, we should discuss and exercise more specifics on how to utilize them more efficiently.

 

[Zelkam]

So, I've come to a realization of Link's tools and...kinda have for a while.

Against experienced players, "spamming projectiles" does not work at all.

Since there is relatively a decent amount of startup on a each of his tools, and can be shielded easily, it's fairly safe to say that Link is not necessarily as huge on zoning as we think he is. The tools may give him range, but that range still isn't getting him much of anywhere against players who understand how to fight it. So we need to come up with a new game plan aside from just tossing everything from the kitchen sink, at the opponent.

In other words, we should discuss and exercise more specifics on how to utilize them more efficiently.

I will say that you're about half right in saying that Link isn't a character that should be focusing solely on spamming. The changes to smash 4's mechanics have made it so that Link (and most characters for that matter) are capable of performing better at CQC. That said, Link's projectiles are still very good and very much a part of his game.

The key is learning to spam smarter. Learning how to string projectiles together with other moves and constantly staying in motion are things that are essential in Link's play style. Take these matches of KirinBlaze for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAGBn57C2NM Kirin uses projectiles throughout all of these matches but he uses them to set up other attacks and maintain spacing. So yeah, using nothing but projectiles is not a good idea, but they should still be very much a part of our game.

 

[Karaoke Man]

I will say that you're about half right in saying that Link isn't a character that should be focusing solely on spamming. The changes to smash 4's mechanics have made it so that Link (and most characters for that matter) are capable of performing better at CQC. That said, Link's projectiles are still very good and very much a part of his game.

The key is learning to spam smarter. Learning how to string projectiles together with other moves and constantly staying in motion are things that are essential in Link's play style. Take these matches of KirinBlaze for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAGBn57C2NM Kirin uses projectiles throughout all of these matches but he uses them to set up other attacks and maintain spacing. So yeah, using nothing but projectiles is not a good idea, but they should still be very much a part of our game.

I agree on the last part, but my point is that if we're going to use the tools, we have to use them with a plan in mind. Because using them for the sole purpose of zoning just isn't really going to work. I've done that against various amounts of top/notable players even in Brawl, and they busted through just about every time lol.

My other point is that you can't keep throwing projectiles without either restricting your offensive options, or just limiting yourself in terms of movement. Something like that is more of what Samus is built for, but not Link necessarily. I'm saying that we have to be less reliant on using the tools as a method of zoning, and more as an extension of Link's CQC offense. While a tool such as the Gale Boomerangg does deal damage when thrown out, it's not totally designed for that purpose anymore (as it's main function is the bring the opponent back to Link). Thus, limiting the potential for the Gale Boomerang altogether if that's the only reason we're throwing it out. We can't try to restrict the opponent with the current method, if we're also restricting ourselves.

That's somewhat what I mean by discussing more specifics on "spamming smarter", cause' honestly "spamming smarter" doesn't tell me anything and ultimately coincides with the point of the paragraph above. We have to utilze the tools with a more elaborate strategy, but also in a fashion where we can still manever around with Link much more comfortably.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've tried to write about effective spamming before, but every time it seems that I leave out some important aspect or fail to convey the right meaning or place too much emphasis on one aspect to the detriment of all else. I'd like to claim that it's notoriously difficult to write about, but then I'm unaware of anyone else's experience with it.

First off I'm going to go out and say that spamming cannot always be a case where every single thing you do is a well laid out and thought out plan. Often when talking about effective spamming in the theoretical sense this is brought up or claimed to be the case, but it ignores reality somewhat. Sometimes for example you might just want to put a quick wall of projectiles up or maintain that wall if you're still in a neutral situation with a decent gap between you and your opponent, and you can't say that every single projectile thrown out in these situations is going to be thought out as opposed to simply mixed up.
We'll say for now that the wall of projectiles is the more neutral state. It will typically consist of at least one projectile being out at any one time and often several. The wall is purely an obstacle to overcome and will (at this stage) keep Link constantly busy.
For some, this is as far as 'spamming' goes. You just throw stuff out generally towards the opponent as fast and efficiently as possible, and your opponent usually ends up getting hit by something and then everything. But this is just the comparatively thoughtless side to spamming.

I believe that the key phrase to effective spamming is 'adapt and change', and in order to do this, you will need to monitor, react, anticipate, and predict. Monitoring is more than just watching, but rather it involves being aware of what options your opponent has, being aware of what options they are nonetheless choosing, and being ready to notice any change in the options they choose to take (or else ready to notice that they aren't changing). Reacting is obvious enough. Anticipating is basically a lesser version of predicting; it's an assumption or a guess based on experience with your own character and human opponents in general. Predicting is much more case by case; it's seeing a pattern in your opponent and specifically choosing an option ahead of time that will counter that pattern next time you're in that situation.

There are two main goals to keep in mind when spamming. What you should be trying to achieve is to stifle their approaches (which tends to involve retreating where necessary) and at the same time open up approaches of your own (which tends to involve advancing). It's very important to understand that the best way to avoid damage isn't going to be to run away the whole time as that is only the first aspect, that is, constantly stifling their approach, and this will become predictable and in turn less effective leading to you receiving more damage. The same can obviously be said for constantly approaching with projectiles. Both goals compliment each other and will make the other more viable and less predictable. It's also important to understand that opening up approaches of your own does not mean that you will always wait for them to get hit with a projectile first before you go in. Often times it is by avoiding a projectile or expecting to have to avoid a projectile (or even expecting that you will retreat) that they will leave themselves open for you to approach.

Then it's a simple matter of applying the concepts of adapt and change to ensure that you always choose to go after the correct goal at the right time in relation to what your opponent does. See, it's not strictly true to say that you should find a balance between both goals, because maybe your opponent consistently covers one goal more than the other, meaning that the complimentary opposite goal should be used more often in that case.

In order for everything to be said there'd really need to be an entire thread or something, so just know that there has been a lot left out due to not being bothered right now. There are of course other goals to spamming, for example chip damage and forcing approaches, but these aren't as relevant for Link when talking about 'effective spam' as they are for a character such as Fox. Also I made no mention of frame traps or controlling the opponent by reducing the options available to them, but you can see how these could fall into the two larger goals. Whatever I'm tired.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

I agree on the last part, but my point is that if we're going to use the tools, we have to use them with a plan in mind. Because using them for the sole purpose of zoning just isn't really going to work. I've done that against various amounts of top/notable players even in Brawl, and they busted through just about every time lol.

My other point is that you can't keep throwing projectiles without either restricting your offensive options, or just limiting yourself in terms of movement. Something like that is more of what Samus is built for, but not Link necessarily. I'm saying that we have to be less reliant on using the tools as a method of zoning, and more as an extension of Link's CQC offense. While a tool such as the Gale Boomerangg does deal damage when thrown out, it's not totally designed for that purpose anymore (as it's main function is the bring the opponent back to Link). Thus, limiting the potential for the Gale Boomerang altogether if that's the only reason we're throwing it out. We can't try to restrict the opponent with the current method, if we're also restricting ourselves.

That's somewhat what I mean by discussing more specifics on "spamming smarter", cause' honestly "spamming smarter" doesn't tell me anything and ultimately coincides with the point of the paragraph above. We have to utilze the tools with a more elaborate strategy, but also in a fashion where we can still manever around with Link much more comfortably.

This has been said before. I don't think that Link was ever designed to rely solely on his projectiles it's just that in brawl he was so bad that's all he could do. It's true that Link's melee game has improved immensely, and of course when the situation calls for it the projectiles should be used to chain links projectiles to melee attacks, but not all the time. Just my opinion, but I think spamming will always be a huge part of links game. Combine your spam with some short hops and you're not limiting your mobility as much as you would think.

So, I've come to a realization of Link's tools and...kinda have for a while.

Against experienced players, "spamming projectiles" does not work at all.

Even the most skilled of opponents can't do a thing if they're under constant hitstun. That's why Links have always spammed, only now we can capitalize on it cause our melee moves are actually good.

 

[Elessar]

In order for everything to be said there'd really need to be an entire thread or something, so just know that there has been a lot left out due to not being bothered right now.

Actually, this is the thread where this should be discussed. This is the Metagame thread and this is a Metagame issue. I'm traveling today and I have to pack so o won't answer now. I'll do it once I have arrived and unpacked.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Nice @ Zelkam . Added to OP.
Sorry for disappearing unannounced. Had a competition to go to over the weekend. I'll be on top of this thread up to Thursday, but I'll need someone to take over for this weekend since I'll be gone again and won't be back until Tuesday.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Actually, this is the thread where this should be discussed. This is the Metagame thread and this is a Metagame issue. I'm traveling today and I have to pack so o won't answer now. I'll do it once I have arrived and unpacked.

Oh well yeah. I was more talking about like if I were to actually bother with a complete answer I'd want to write a pretty large post which could easily be a stand alone thread. I'm not sure that a complete write-up of spamming has ever been done before. The only write-ups I remember seeing were smaller ones that were part of a guide or simply a post like the one above and so they necessarily brushed over a lot or didn't mention some very important aspect at all or tended to not use enough specific examples or something.
I guess though that before such a thing were attempted it would be best to talk it out first in a thread like this to make sure nothing was missed and also so that there was some kind of consensus on the matter.

 

[Zelkam]

Nice @ Zelkam . Added to OP.
Sorry for disappearing unannounced. Had a competition to go to over the weekend. I'll be on top of this thread up to Thursday, but I'll need someone to take over for this weekend since I'll be gone again and won't be back until Tuesday.

Well, it's alright for now but I'll probably end up redoing it. I found out the the 3ds seems to record launch speed more accurately. I dunno when I'll get around to doing that though...

Oh well yeah. I was more talking about like if I were to actually bother with a complete answer I'd want to write a pretty large post which could easily be a stand alone thread. I'm not sure that a complete write-up of spamming has ever been done before. The only write-ups I remember seeing were smaller ones that were part of a guide or simply a post like the one above and so they necessarily brushed over a lot or didn't mention some very important aspect at all or tended to not use enough specific examples or something.
I guess though that before such a thing were attempted it would be best to talk it out first in a thread like this to make sure nothing was missed and also so that there was some kind of consensus on the matter.

That's something I think could be really useful for the boards and would make an excellent addition to the index.

 

[FSK]

Remember that projectiles sole purpose is not to hit their opponents. They are also used to pressure, bait and force bad approaches on the opponent. Projectile usage is almost its own metagame.

(Not sure if that was mentioned since I didn't read everything cause lolme)

An example is how Armada in melee uses turnips to force opponents to recover high so he can set up aerial punishes.

 

[Rizen]

In Brawl, and this continues to SSB4, a common misconception is that Link camps/spams. We use these terms loosely but really everything Link does is to support his spacing. Link doesn't have a true camping game. I played some top players in Brawl and I never really camped. It was all about seeing what attack fits this spacing best and improvising on the fly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esDooXdwlZY&index=8&list=PLr1TA6mS1hkv4aAyML6Se--hAXN4qTFZw

In SSB4 Link has better mobility and can support his spacing better than in Brawl by moving farther and faster. The projectiles and landings work a bit differently so we can't play Brawl Link in SSB4 but the premise is similar. Use the best attack for that spacing. Projectiles aren't different from melee attacks in a camping sense but rather that they can be out at the same time as melee attacks and other projectiles.

 

[FGC-Oni]

Pivot f-tilts get so many people off guard, not to mention punishes rolls safely. Which is especially important since rolls are so hard to punish in this game.

My brother rolls behind me when I run up to him as he thinks I'm gonna do a dash attack or something. This usually works to catch him if I space it properly.

The pivot tilt is when you turn around and f-tilt right?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Early today, a new Sm4sh tech was discovered. It's similar to L-Cancel in Melee, and it's called "Frame Cancel."
http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-cancel.386639/
Many are diving in an trying to figure stuff out about it, but what we know so far is that the effect is most noticeable on moves with high landing lag/ hitlag. The working theory is that this works on all aerials. If we can confirm that it works for Link with a video or gif, I'll put it in the OP and make it stand out in some fashion. This is a huge break in the meta, and many combos, MUs, and play styles will likely be reevaluated (my mind is swimming with the possibilities)
3, 2, 1, DISCUSS.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Can anyone give me any pointers on how to Perfect Pivot? For the life of me I cannot get it down.

I've been on training mode for close to 30 minutes and probably have only done it like 3 times. I've tried on both my mains (Link and Robin). I've tried it on 1/4, 1/2, and 2/3's speed and can't get it down for the life of me. Is it "Tap left, Tilt right"? Or is it "Tap left, Tap right"?

Pointers will be greatly appreciated.

Edit: I use the Wii U Pro controller.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Early today, a new Sm4sh tech was discovered. It's similar to L-Cancel in Melee, and it's called "Frame Cancel."
http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-cancel.386639/
Many are diving in an trying to figure stuff out about it, but what we know so far is that the effect is most noticeable on moves with high landing lag/ hitlag. The working theory is that this works on all aerials. If we can confirm that it works for Link with a video or gif, I'll put it in the OP and make it stand out in some fashion. This is a huge break in the meta, and many combos, MUs, and play styles will likely be reevaluated (my mind is swimming with the possibilities)
3, 2, 1, DISCUSS.

If it works the way I explained in that thread, then the most benefit will come from moves that have a lot of hitlag or else not that much landing lag in the first place (because 3 frames of hitlag, though not much, at the start of a 6 frame landing lag is still literally halving the amount of landing lag you get). This makes me think that U-air and Nair would be Link's best aerials to do this with. With U-air, note that it would not have to be done against a character who is on the ground. You'll still get hitlag even if you hit them while they are in the air.

Can anyone give me any pointers on how to Perfect Pivot? For the life of me I cannot get it down.

I've been on training mode for close to 30 minutes and probably have only done it like 3 times. I've tried on both my mains (Link and Robin). I've tried it on 1/4, 1/2, and 2/3's speed and can't get it down for the life of me. Is it "Tap left, Tilt right"? Or is it "Tap left, Tap right"?

Pointers will be greatly appreciated.

Edit: I use the Wii U Pro controller.

Hit the joystick left or right then immediately Flick it back in the other direction ('flick' as in immediately let it return to neutral). [I should probably give directions for it in the dictionary, so if you were using that as a reference, you have my apologies.]

 

[Rizen]

This is a question but it's also an important metagame thing so I'm posting here for discussion. How do you escape combos? SSB4 has a lot more hitstun and less DI than Brawl. Is it kind of like DIing but worse. Should Link try to DI up, jump, bomb pull? I've tried Nair but it's not breaking the combos like in Brawl due the the hitstun. Maybe Di up>Nair >FF? Are rolls away safe?
I also noticed Link can't FF like in Brawl and bombs have smaller explosions so BF seems worse for Link. I think my game needs to be reworked.

Thoughts?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

This is a question but it's also an important metagame thing so I'm posting here for discussion. How do you escape combos? SSB4 has a lot more hitstun and less DI than Brawl. Is it kind of like DIing but worse. Should Link try to DI up, jump, bomb pull? I've tried Nair but it's not breaking the combos like in Brawl due the the hitstun. Maybe Di up>Nair >FF? Are rolls away safe?
I also noticed Link can't FF like in Brawl and bombs have smaller explosions so BF seems worse for Link. I think my game needs to be reworked.

Thoughts?

I'll just say a little bit on this.
Bomb-pulling out of hitstun can pretty dangerous, especially if you're hit into the top screen. I've punished and killed Tink and Link players doing the act. If I wanted to pull out a bomb when getting knocked out, I'd first DI away from the stage/opponent, double jump, and then downb. Generally, you should only take out your Bombs if you're a safe enough distance away from the opponent.

Now, for escaping combos/strings, I generally DI away from the opponent and pull out an arrow or Nair to interrupt potential follow-ups. If I get knocked into the top screen, I usually either rain Bombs down on the stage or come down with a Dair (though the latter is usually riskier).

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Hit the joystick left or right then immediately Flick it back in the other direction ('flick' as in immediately let it return to neutral). [I should probably give directions for it in the dictionary, so if you were using that as a reference, you have my apologies.]

So in other words it would be "Tap Left, Joystick Neutral"? Would that not just do a quick dash and immediately stop? The video I watched made it look like he tapped left then right.

 

[Lawz.]

This is a question but it's also an important metagame thing so I'm posting here for discussion. How do you escape combos? SSB4 has a lot more hitstun and less DI than Brawl. Is it kind of like DIing but worse. Should Link try to DI up, jump, bomb pull? I've tried Nair but it's not breaking the combos like in Brawl due the the hitstun. Maybe Di up>Nair >FF? Are rolls away safe?
I also noticed Link can't FF like in Brawl and bombs have smaller explosions so BF seems worse for Link. I think my game needs to be reworked.

Thoughts?

You really have to DI and know which way to do it depending on the move. I wouldn't recommend using double jump as a means to escaping those situations as it is very easy for someone to abuse that kind of pattern, unless of course you were knocked far enough away from them. A character like Sheik would eat you alive if they see you constantly double jumping away. Same would go for air dodging or Nair as your opponent can just juggle you and wait for your reaction with shield and punish accordingly.

You'd really have to use an example of a situation that you constantly struggle with, otherwise I can only say to practice your DI so it isn't so easy for someone to follow up (such as a Diddy who just grabbed you and did dthrow).

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So in other words it would be "Tap Left, Joystick Neutral"? Would that not just do a quick dash and immediately stop? The video I watched made it look like he tapped left then right.

No. Read what I said again. I'll put it another way. Start a dash in any direction (this is what I meant by 'hit the joystick left or right') then instantly hit the joystick backwards then instantly let the joystick return to neutral (this is what I meant by 'then immediately Flick it back in the other direction').


I want to open some discussion about Zair briefly in the context of smash 4. This should hopefully help people understand not just how to use it, but when to use it.
Up close and on the way out, the initial hit does 2% and the final hit does 4%. (Though I think it adds up to something like 6.5%)
If you want to do any kind of damage, you have to hit with the tip, otherwise 2% is absolutely terrible.
Against small to medium characters and character who lean forwards when they run which lowers their hurtbox (that's a lot of characters btw), because of how fast Link falls, in order to get the tip of the attack, you have to land just as the tip comes out which means that the start of the Zair must be used toward the peak of a SH. The problem with this is those same characters can literally just run at you and get straight under the Zair when you use it in this way. If they are at about half way along the Zair or closer towards you, a lot of characters simply won't get hit and then they'll be on top of you (and that's when the small amount of landing lag will really hurt you). The hitbox for Zair is very very small, which wouldn't be so much of an issue if Link didn't fall so fast or stand so (relatively) tall.
Yes, there is landing lag, but it's not much. However I will say that the same can be said for Nair, Fair and Bair which only have slightly more landing lag surprisingly enough.
The Zair will only combo if it is used close up with the 2% hitbox (?). This means that you would have to commit to using that 2% hitbox by starting the Zair closer to the ground knowing that you won't get the full length Zair to come out. But then anything that combos out of the 2% Zair would surely not be as much damage as one strong hit.
So what we are getting here is the idea that the Zair should only be used at longer range when there's not much chance of the opposing character closing the distance or if they are in shield or unable to immediately run towards you for any reason. But then, wouldn't projectiles be a better option in this situation? The answer is that it depends.
Retreating Zair? Why not retreating projectiles though? Again, the hitbox of Zair is very small and would not lead into anything in this situation.
So what exactly does Zair have going for it? Well it's admittedly pretty fast for the range it covers. About the same speed as an arrow, but then the arrow goes further. But then Zair does have that nice two hit thing going on, which would put much more pressure on shields. In general, it's sort of like if it's correctly spaced, it has slightly less lag then any of your other options.
Another problem with Zair in this game though is that you can't airdodge Zair or Zair with a Bomb without receiving all of the landing lag. Also, if you want to use Zair after doing any action without doing an airdodge or a double jump first, you must wait till the absolute end of that last move's animation is finished otherwise you'll get an airdodge, which, to be frank, basically means that you may as well forget about ever doing Zair without doing an airdodge or a double jump first if you've done any other action in the air.

I propose that we all re-think our brawl Zair habits and instincts. Zair got nerfed slightly while Link's other options got buffed. Start thinking, is there a better option in this scenario. It's a new game and I believe that treating Zair the same will only hinder your smash 4 progress.

Though I'm always open to persuasion. So please, any thoughts are most welcome.

 

[HiccupDragons]

Just thought I would add something important to the list of projectiles the Hylian Shield can deflect. I came across this while playing against a friend and has been tested to work, and thought it interesting and unexpected.
Villagers Tree can be deflected (however, not the uproot, only the fall of the tree after cut)
Thought that would help some that were unaware

 

[Zelkam]

@ HiccupDragons You sir, have an amazing user name

@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive Zair is still a move that I love very much in Smash 4, but I do find that I use it differently than I did in brawl. Before I would always try to connect both hits. I just felt so good to get that two hit combo and it meant that I was tacking on 10% damage onto my opponent. With the changes to Zair in smash 4 (more landing lag, less knockback, more range) I tend to only go for the tipped hit. Zair now has 9 frames of landing lag compared to the 2 it had in brawl. This has made it more risky at close range and also less viable seeing as how it doesn't lead into other moves like jab or a bomb throw like it did before.

For me, it's become sort of a long range poking tool. I typically throw it out at max range to stop an approach, maintain distance, or right after I throw the boomerang. Ledge hopped Zairs are amazing as well and practically everyone I've used it on never sees it coming.

 

[link7]

Yea, I'll only occasionally throw the Zair out. People don't expect it when I do.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Are people aware of just how good landing with Nair is? If you use it so it comes out just before you land (not even perfectly or anything such that it's a frame cancel), if the opponent shields it and buffers a grab while you buffer a spotdodge, they will miss if they have a grab that comes out on frame 9 or later. And that's if you miss-space it, because it also has amazing shield knockback, making it so that characters often get pushed out of range of their grab.

Characters whose grab is too slow, 9 frames or more (meaning you can literally land right on top of them and avoid a buffered Grab by buffering e.g. a spotdodge):
Greninja, Bowser, Bowser Jr, Link, Mac, Villager, Pac Man, Olimar, Samus, Zero, Toon, Yoshi, and Zelda.

Adding to this list those characters who have an 8 frame grab or better but who get pushed too far away so that they whiff their Grab when you Nair their shield and land right in front of them (as in I started by standing as close to them as possible and let the character models push each other apart to represent horrible spacing):
C Falcon, Diddy (though this is when the characters get pushed ever so slightly further apart by Diddy's shake animation), Falco, Ganon, Kirby, Charizard, Luigi, and ROB.

Out of all the characters left who have an 8 frame or better Grab and are able to Grab Link when he does a very poorly spaced Nair, the following are the characters who whiff their Grab if Link spaces Nair properly (i.e the tip of Nair would have hit their hurtbox, but they shielded it and then buffered a Grab):
Literally everyone else. Dedede, DK, DH, Fox, GnW, Ike, Lucario, Lucina, Mario, Dr Mario, Marth, MK, Mii Fighter, Gunner, Sword, Ness, Palutena, Peach, Pikachu, Pit, Dark Pit, Jiggs, Robin, Mega Man, Rosalina, Sheik, Shulk, Sonic, Wario, and WiiFit.


Now this obviously doesn't take into account power shielding or dashing into shield to get a small slide that works against the shield knockback, and it doesn't take into account other OoS options (which I may test later), but this most certainly proves a point about how safe it is to land with Nair's hitbox coming out just as you land.

 

[LightLelouch89]

Early today, a new Sm4sh tech was discovered. It's similar to L-Cancel in Melee, and it's called "Frame Cancel."
http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-cancel.386639/
Many are diving in an trying to figure stuff out about it, but what we know so far is that the effect is most noticeable on moves with high landing lag/ hitlag. The working theory is that this works on all aerials. If we can confirm that it works for Link with a video or gif, I'll put it in the OP and make it stand out in some fashion. This is a huge break in the meta, and many combos, MUs, and play styles will likely be reevaluated (my mind is swimming with the possbilities)
3, 2, 1, DISCUSS.

I think this'll get patched out in no time if it ends up being viable.

 

[Elessar]

I think this'll get patched out in no time if it ends up being viable.

I hope it doesn't since this will help sm4sh be faster and thus improve the competitive side. However, they may remove it as a glitch like they did with TC. If they don't, then I really don't understand Sakurai. I'll be somewhat glad, but I'll seriously be baffled as to why he decided TC had to go but this remains.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I think this'll get patched out in no time if it ends up being viable.

It's a pretty hard tech to do, and we haven't really seen widespread use of this yet (it's been barely discovered, ofc), so I doubt it will get patched.
Alright. I'm gonna be leaving today, so I won't be updating this thread for awhile. If any mod feels like adding some things to the OP, feel free to do so.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

EDIT: My apologies. I got over excited. Enjoying reading this thread. Keep it up, Link mains. I'm looking forward to the representation at Apex.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Yo, I hope y'all are watching Izaw. He had a recent money match against Haze in Sm4sh and got excellent commentary from LoF Keitaro and LoF False. Hype!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBrvgR-c1VQ&index=1&list=FL055LkjwC_csNc7VMF9LDIw

@Izaw himself has already posted this in the video thread.

 

[Elessar]

Yo, I hope y'all are watching Izaw. He had a recent money match against Haze in Sm4sh and got excellent commentary from LoF Keitaro and LoF False. Hype!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBrvgR-c1VQ&index=1&list=FL055LkjwC_csNc7VMF9LDIw

Don't spam our boards with advertisement for Izaw. This thread serves no purpose other than to mildly derail our metagame thread. I'd appreciate it if you didn't do this again. Instead of posting here go to social.

Oh, also, we don't really care that much about Izaw.

 

[Karaoke Man]

In Brawl, and this continues to SSB4, a common misconception is that Link camps/spams. We use these terms loosely but really everything Link does is to support his spacing. Link doesn't have a true camping game. I played some top players in Brawl and I never really camped. It was all about seeing what attack fits this spacing best and improvising on the fly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esDooXdwlZY&index=8&list=PLr1TA6mS1hkv4aAyML6Se--hAXN4qTFZw

I've tried to write about effective spamming before, but every time it seems that I leave out some important aspect or fail to convey the right meaning or place too much emphasis on one aspect to the detriment of all else. I'd like to claim that it's notoriously difficult to write about, but then I'm unaware of anyone else's experience with it.

First off I'm going to go out and say that spamming cannot always be a case where every single thing you do is a well laid out and thought out plan. Often when talking about effective spamming in the theoretical sense this is brought up or claimed to be the case, but it ignores reality somewhat. Sometimes for example you might just want to put a quick wall of projectiles up or maintain that wall if you're still in a neutral situation with a decent gap between you and your opponent, and you can't say that every single projectile thrown out in these situations is going to be thought out as opposed to simply mixed up.
We'll say for now that the wall of projectiles is the more neutral state. It will typically consist of at least one projectile being out at any one time and often several. The wall is purely an obstacle to overcome and will (at this stage) keep Link constantly busy.
For some, this is as far as 'spamming' goes. You just throw stuff out generally towards the opponent as fast and efficiently as possible, and your opponent usually ends up getting hit by something and then everything. But this is just the comparatively thoughtless side to spamming.

I believe that the key phrase to effective spamming is 'adapt and change', and in order to do this, you will need to monitor, react, anticipate, and predict. Monitoring is more than just watching, but rather it involves being aware of what options your opponent has, being aware of what options they are nonetheless choosing, and being ready to notice any change in the options they choose to take (or else ready to notice that they aren't changing). Reacting is obvious enough. Anticipating is basically a lesser version of predicting; it's an assumption or a guess based on experience with your own character and human opponents in general. Predicting is much more case by case; it's seeing a pattern in your opponent and specifically choosing an option ahead of time that will counter that pattern next time you're in that situation.

At 1:03-1:05 in that video is exactly what I mean by having a plan. Although, I'm not sure if you intended it at the given time.

I guess what I mean by having a plan in mind is that; Each tool essentially perform different functions in their own right. As I'll explain the example in the video Rizen, posted.

At 1:03, Rizen threw the Gale Boomerang towards Mr. Eric's Marth. (Whether he intended for it to hit or not, I don't know), but it pulled Marth closer to Link. The Gale Boomerang should primarily be utilized in this manner, since it was initially designed for that specific purpose. The principles of how it was utilized in Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, is the same principle to taken into account for Smash (Brawl and/or Smash 4)

The same thing goes for the other tools as well. Each of them has their own role to fullfill very similar, if not exactly the same like they did in the Legend of Zelda games. Which I'll breifly display below:

[Legend of Zelda]- Retrieving and reeling in objects upon return. Can also stun enemies, (though this is not it's main function)

[Translation in Smash] Pulls the opponent back towards Link upon return. The only way this will happen is when it's returning from behind the opponent in some way or if they run into the Gale Boomerang while the windbox is active. The windbox activates quicker with the short distance toss. Most effective when the opponent's feet are lifted off the ground. Application for this is very simililar to how Captain America uses his shield in Marvel Comics or in Marvel vs Capcom 3, as he also uses it in a Boomerang-like fashion.

Skill Requirement: Distance Estimation, Prediction

- [Legend of Zelda]- Blowing up obstacles to clear a path for Link to progress onwards (which include enemies).

[Translation in Smash]- Should be treated similar to Snake's grenades in Brawl; Timing it so you'll be pressuring the opponent with not the bomb itself, but the explosion. Since it detonates in roughly 4 seconds after being plucked, you'll want to throw it or plant it immediately after the count of "3". Opens up opportunities for Link to follow up with his own attacks, or set up advantagous scenarios with another of his tools. The explosion also will cancel any of Link's attacks as long as he is in contact with the bomb at the count of "4" when it explodes. (As an example, making fully charged grounded Spin Attack completely safe, even on shield, from the count of "3")

Skill Requirement: Rhythmic Counting, Reaction Time, Scenario Gauging

[Legend of Zelda] - Sniping far away targets and enemies with sufficient aim.

[Translation in Smash]- Sniping near-the-edge/offstage opponents, from long range. Can be used to gimp from other end of the stage, if successful.

Skill Requirement: Sense of Trajectory, Precision

-[Legend of Zelda] Allows Link to grapple to places he'd normally wouldn't be able to get to. Grabs out-of-reach items and/or treasures to Link's location. Stuns enemies from from a mid-distance when Link is locked in combat with them as a means of keep away, even if it's easily guarded.

[Translation in Smash]- Can grab opponents from mid-distance if pivot grabbed. The only reliable move/tool (Zair) with low enough knockback that can snare the opponent into the windbox of the returning Gale Boomerang and can also be Linked (huehuehue) into Link's grounded sword attacks such as his jab. This is Link's primary zoning tool. Utilized for recovery purposes as well.

Skill Requirement: Space Manipulation


"Spamming projectiles" is a general strategy (and don't get me wrong, it does have some merit), but all of these tools are not fit for the singular purpose of zoning, as the Clawshot is primarily built for that role with Zair and the grab/pivot grab. This is what I mean by utilizing these tools with a plan. Since they all serve different, but rather more specific functions in their utility.

Strategy is an overall plan to accomplish a certan goal. However, tactics are the execution of smaller roles that leads to that achievement. With all that being said, what we need is not necessarly a general strategy such as zoning; What we need are tactics. Because Link is not a strategist; but a tactitian.

The implementation of these specific functions, is what will lead Link much closer to victory. I'm gonna' try to get a video up to show some examples.

 

[FGC-Oni]

Sorry if this has already been posted but has anyone seen this video of Izaw playing Link. Lot's of interesting things he does in his matches gonna definitely start using this with my play style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBrvgR-c1VQ