Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Xephilon]

It's already been known for quite some time now. It is actually in the AT thread.

I checkedd the At thread before posting and didnt find it (unless I read wrong)

Oh well, thanks anyway.

 

[shapular]

I've been trying to work out some down throw/bomb combos, i.e., throwing your opponent when a bomb is about to explode on the ground next to you. I haven't been following any of the discussion at all so let me know if this is a thing that's been discussed. Having the bomb explode during your throw armor is good for some damage, but I think there's some potential for better combos by having the bomb explode on you and your opponent right after you throw them. Here's the best thing I've gotten out of it so far: http://gfycat.com/UglyJampackedHairstreak It's not great and not even a real combo, but I think it's a start at least. I meant to uair instead of fair at the end, which I think would have worked. It might work with different throws too. Anybody got any better combos for this? Is this a bad idea that will never work?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've been trying to work out some down throw/bomb combos, i.e., throwing your opponent when a bomb is about to explode on the ground next to you. I haven't been following any of the discussion at all so let me know if this is a thing that's been discussed. Having the bomb explode during your throw armor is good for some damage, but I think there's some potential for better combos by having the bomb explode on you and your opponent right after you throw them. Here's the best thing I've gotten out of it so far: http://gfycat.com/UglyJampackedHairstreak It's not great and not even a real combo, but I think it's a start at least. I meant to uair instead of fair at the end, which I think would have worked. It might work with different throws too. Anybody got any better combos for this? Is this a bad idea that will never work?

Being blown up by the same bomb would only be good if you were on a (much) lower percent than the opponent (depending on how fast their options are compared to yours). In the gif though you were on a higher percent, meaning that the opponent had a frame advantage on you but instead of escaping or punishing you he chose to airdodge into the ground (?) which is why you got the Nair to D-tilt.

 

[DarkDeity15]

So it turns out that the Bair>bomb throw string can combo. The timing is just super precise. I find that the best and most practical way to perform this is by catching the bomb from a platform with a Bair while dropping through and then FFing to the ground so that only the first hitbox comes out, then tossing the bomb as quickly as possible. The bomb>Bair string on the ground alone is far more tricky to perform because of how long it takes for Bair to come out, but getting it to combo is probably more consistent.

 

[FSK]

So it turns out that Bair>bomb throw string can combo. The timing is just super precise. I find that the best and most practical way to perform this is by catching the bomb from a platform with a Bair while dropping through and then FFing to the ground so that only the first hitbox comes out, then tossing the bomb as quickly as possible. The bomb>Bair string on the ground alone is far more tricky to perform because of how long it takes for Bair to come out, but getting it to combo is probably more consistent.

Thanks for the info I guess. If it one day becomes remotely useful (which it probably won't) I'll look more into it.

I have coincidentally been looking into first hit bair combos, will write something short about it soon.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Nvm... got this question clarified on the xat.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Thanks for the info I guess. If it one day becomes remotely useful (which it probably won't) I'll look more into it.

I have coincidentally been looking into first hit bair combos, will write something short about it soon.

Yeah, I figured as much; it seems pretty situational. Looking forward to your post on first hit bair combos though.

 

[Bdude]

So I haven't checked it out on the whole cast, but for a lot of it dtilt to fair is a 3 hit true combo at early percents. usually I try for the grab off a bomb confirm early on but knowing this its a nice mixup for a solid 29dmg! I can't get the true combo part of it to work past 25% before the dtilt and sometimes the 2nd hit of fair will miss, and upwards of 50% the first hit of fair will miss but the 2nd hit will connect. So it's not a true combo but seems like with the hit stun will be difficult (not impossible, just harder) to avoid via airdodge or other options.

I feel so bad that I just learned this today! Did we know this already?

 

[kxiong92]

So I haven't checked it out on the whole cast, but for a lot of it dtilt to fair is a 3 hit true combo at early percents. usually I try for the grab off a bomb confirm early on but knowing this its a nice mixup for a solid 29dmg! I can't get the true combo part of it to work past 25% before the dtilt and sometimes the 2nd hit of fair will miss, and upwards of 50% the first hit of fair will miss but the 2nd hit will connect. So it's not a true combo but seems like with the hit stun will be difficult (not impossible, just harder) to avoid via airdodge or other options.

I feel so bad that I just learned this today! Did we know this already?

Yeah. It's been known already. If you didn't get the 3 hit combo at around 20%, it's probably your buffering.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@ Bdude : It's in the OP. Second post, and 'Attacking'.

 

[Rizen]

I'm not sure if this works but it's worth exploring. Throw a bomb forward>roll towards the opponent>Usmash/Utilt. The roll moves Link under the opponent, facing the opposite way he was and this allows the wide back swing of Usmash/tilt to hit. Forward roll (FAF 31) and Utilt (starts frame 8) would take 39 frame to start after the bomb throw but put Link in an ideal position under the opponent when the bomb launches them up and back a little.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not sure if this works but it's worth exploring. Throw a bomb forward>roll towards the opponent>Usmash/Utilt. The roll moves Link under the opponent, facing the opposite way he was and this allows the wide back swing of Usmash/tilt to hit. Forward roll (FAF 31) and Utilt (starts frame 8) would take 39 frame to start after the bomb throw but put Link in an ideal position under the opponent when the bomb launches them up and back a little.

For situations like that (read: CQC bomb confirms into stuff) I usually prefer getting a little closer and either Z-Dropping or RAR Z-Dropping a bomb just because Zair has little lag and Link would already be close enough to follow up with U-tilt/U-Smash/Whatever.

Before the Z-drop it's a bit riskier because you have to be that much closer for the bomb to explode on the opponent, but IMO it seems like overall less of a commitment than bomb throw -> roll in -> stuff because Link will have more frames of freedom to do stuff before the opponent can react after a Z-drop if they shield it (and on top of that because the bomb will still have an active hitbo after bouncing on shield, I don't believe the opponent will easily be able to react with a shield grab), for instance. On the other hand, if they shield the bomb throw -> roll in Link would be more vulnerable frame-wise.

Granted I'm digressing a bit because I imagine the point your making is based on the assumption that the bomb connects, but also I feel that given the frames necessary for such a follow-up to work that it may not be viable past single digit % for most of the cast save for heavyweights because they may be able to jump or mash out of it before U-tilt/U-Smash, but testing of course needs to take place to confirm it either way.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

(and on top of that because the bomb will still have an active hitbox after bouncing on shield

This is only for the 'instant z-drop' on any shield or any bomb that has been perfect-shielded. In all other scenarios involving bombs and shields, to my knowledge i.e. the last time I checked, the shielded bomb will immediately cease to actively detect the shielding opponent's hurtboxes (i.e. cease to be 'active').

 

[Deleted member]

This is only for the 'instant z-drop' on any shield or any bomb that has been perfect-shielded. In all other scenarios involving bombs and shields, to my knowledge i.e. the last time I checked, the shielded bomb will immediately cease to actively detect the shielding opponent's hurtboxes (i.e. cease to be 'active').

Ah, thank you for the correction, for some reason I always though the bomb maintained the active hitbox until it stopped bouncing regardless of shield contact.

 

[Rizen]

For situations like that (read: CQC bomb confirms into stuff) I usually prefer getting a little closer and either Z-Dropping or RAR Z-Dropping a bomb just because Zair has little lag and Link would already be close enough to follow up with U-tilt/U-Smash/Whatever.

I meant in specific situations provided you will soft throw the bomb. The bomb actually covers the roll pretty well if the opponent evades since the spacing is similar (soft throw bomb forward>roll>Utilt). This also could be a good method for getting past opponents who like to SH approach.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Time for another chunk of text that advances the metagame. There is of course a 'tl;dr' at the bottom.


Zan posted this not too long ago http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...o-critique-thread.368737/page-7#post-19995599
I linked FSK to it and we got to labbing. These are the results. I'll start with the basics first.

When you get hit and experience low level knockback all actions will be capable of being performed on the same frame (they can of course be buffered). When you get hit and experience medium to high level knockback, all actions will be able to be performed on the exact same frame following hitstun with one notable exception. Airdodge is able to come out earlier than all other options, and the amount of frames earlier that it comes out on will depend on how much hitstun Link would otherwise have had to go through. In other words, from a Sheik D-throw, a Link who is on 60% can airdodge around 4 frames earlier than any other option, but if Link is on 110% he can airdodge around 6 frames earlier.
[Edit: Apparently jump and specials come out even later. http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-44#post-20106322 ]

So let's say you're holding a bomb and you get hit with medium to high knockback, what are your options? Well you can throw the bomb, and that will come out on the same frame as everything else except airdodge, and if you try to z-drop it something weird happens. If you input Grab (to z-drop) and you buffer the input before hitstun ends, you'll get a Zair while holding the bomb, the bomb won't be dropped, and the Zair will come out when everything else does. If you instead wait for the period of hitstun to wear off and hit grab at or after the point where all other actions can be used, Link will instead throw the bomb. You have to wait around another 15 frames after the period in which you can act following hitstun to be able to input just grab in order to z-drop the bomb. Normally then, in order to get a Z-drop to work soon out of hitstun, you would have to do it immediately after using your DJ, which has obvious downsides. But then here's where things get interesting.

The first four frames of airdodge can be canceled by Z-drop and Bomb throw. These are known in the AT thread as the 'airdodge cancelled z-drop' and the 'instant bomb throw' respectively. What this means is that when Link receives medium to high knockback, he can airdodge earlier than any of his other options then immediately cancel that airdodge by throwing the bomb or Z-dropping the bomb - which allows him to throw a bomb or z-drop a bomb out of hitstun noticeably earlier than usual, at least in comparison anyway. This could just be a generally useful thing to know when throwing Bombs out of hitstun, but for now we're interested in the potential for combo breaking in the airdodge cancelled z-drop and how it can be used as an alternative for airdodging. Note that coming out of hitstun, the airdodge can be buffered, but the Z-drop input must be done separately no sooner than the initial frames of airdodge and certainly no later.

To be honest, at this stage I'm quietly skeptical as to just how useful the airdodge cancelled z-drop will be for breaking combos. I just don't want to get ahead of myself here. It's not on the same level as the 'Invincibomb' from Brawl, nor is it on the level of the all too quickly patched out 'Bomb Throw Cancel'. It does in fact put a potential hitbox out much earlier than any other option Link has out of hitstun from medium to high knockback. So there's that. Out of Sheik's D-throw to U-air though for example you need to get the bomb to be dropped right in the way, which is potentially difficult.
The position that the bomb is dropped can be controlled to some extent, so that helps, maybe. If you input the Z-drop on the first frame of airdodge it will be dropped in front of Link, on the second frame it will be dropped inside Link, and on the third and fourth frames it will be dropped behind Link. Let me just make a point of mentioning at this stage that airdodge only starts giving you intangibility on frame 3 anyway.
In any case, you would need to combine smart DI with precision Bomb drop placement to better ensure that the Bomb gets in the way, and this is easier said than done. If Sheik goes for the D-throw to Up-B, the Bomb has to fall on and hit her before the hitbox comes out, but then Up-B has a semi-decent hitbox size, so if a Sheik catches onto the trick, she could probably just deliberately avoid the bomb entirely by using Up-B to the side of you.
One more thing: when you do the airdodge cancelled Z-drop, you are stuck in the air doing your Zair if you don't get hit (in the vid Zan linked he got hit by a single 1% hitbox in the middle of Sheik's U-air), and while the Bomb can provide some protection, you're still quite vulnerable in your Zair state; and worse still, because you cancelled the airdodge with Zair, if you land during that Zair animation (which is very long) you will go through the airdodge landing lag.

I think this is about as far as labbing and theory will take it. We'll all need to actually try this out in some real games to get any real answers as to how good this is or not. In any case it's nice to have an alternative to airdodging that comes into effect on the same frame.


tl;dr- Airdodge can be used before all other options out of hitstun. Airdodge can also be cancelled with Z-drop and Bomb throw, making these two more options that can be used out of hitstun earlier than anything else. = Potential for combo breaking with airdodge cancelled z-drop.

 

[Deleted member]

Time for another chunk of text that advances the metagame. There is of course a 'tl;dr' at the bottom.


Zan posted this not too long ago http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...o-critique-thread.368737/page-7#post-19995599
I linked FSK to it and we got to labbing. These are the results. I'll start with the basics first.

When you get hit and experience low level knockback all actions will be capable of being performed on the same frame (they can of course be buffered). When you get hit and experience medium to high level knockback, all actions will be able to be performed on the exact same frame following hitstun with one notable exception. Airdodge is able to come out earlier than all other options, and the amount of frames earlier that it comes out on will depend on how much hitstun Link would otherwise have had to go through. In other words, from a Sheik D-throw, a Link who is on 60% can airdodge around 4 frames earlier than any other option, but if Link is on 110% he can airdodge around 6 frames earlier.

So let's say you're holding a bomb and you get hit with medium to high knockback, what are your options? Well you can throw the bomb, and that will come out on the same frame as everything else except airdodge, and if you try to z-drop it something weird happens. If you input Grab (to z-drop) and you buffer the input before hitstun ends, you'll get a Zair while holding the bomb, the bomb won't be dropped, and the Zair will come out when everything else does. If you instead wait for the period of hitstun to wear off and hit grab at or after the point where all other actions can be used, Link will instead throw the bomb. You have to wait around another 15 frames after the period in which you can act following hitstun to be able to input just grab in order to z-drop the bomb. Normally then, in order to get a Z-drop to work soon out of hitstun, you would have to do it immediately after using your DJ, which has obvious downsides. But then here's where things get interesting.

The first four frames of airdodge can be canceled by Z-drop and Bomb throw. These are known in the AT thread as the 'airdodge cancelled z-drop' and the 'instant bomb throw' respectively. What this means is that when Link receives medium to high knockback, he can airdodge earlier than any of his other options then immediately cancel that airdodge by throwing the bomb or Z-dropping the bomb - which allows him to throw a bomb or z-drop a bomb out of hitstun noticeably earlier than usual, at least in comparison anyway. This could just be a generally useful thing to know when throwing Bombs out of hitstun, but for now we're interested in the potential for combo breaking in the airdodge cancelled z-drop and how it can be used as an alternative for airdodging. Note that coming out of hitstun, the airdodge can be buffered, but the Z-drop input must be done separately no sooner than the initial frames of airdodge and certainly no later.

To be honest, at this stage I'm quietly skeptical as to just how useful the airdodge cancelled z-drop will be for breaking combos. I just don't want to get ahead of myself here. It's not on the same level as the 'Invincibomb' from Brawl, nor is it on the level of the all too quickly patched out 'Bomb Throw Cancel'. It does in fact put a potential hitbox out much earlier than any other option Link has out of hitstun from medium to high knockback. So there's that. Out of Sheik's D-throw to U-air though for example you need to get the bomb to be dropped right in the way, which is potentially difficult.
The position that the bomb is dropped can be controlled to some extent, so that helps, maybe. If you input the Z-drop on the first frame of airdodge it will be dropped in front of Link, on the second frame it will be dropped inside Link, and on the third and fourth frames it will be dropped behind Link. Let me just make a point of mentioning at this stage that airdodge only starts giving you intangibility on frame 3 anyway.
In any case, you would need to combine smart DI with precision Bomb drop placement to better ensure that the Bomb gets in the way, and this is easier said than done. If Sheik goes for the D-throw to Up-B, the Bomb has to fall on and hit her before the hitbox comes out, but then Up-B has a semi-decent hitbox size, so if a Sheik catches onto the trick, she could probably just deliberately avoid the bomb entirely by using Up-B to the side of you.
One more thing: when you do the airdodge cancelled Z-drop, you are stuck in the air doing your Zair if you don't get hit (in the vid Zan linked he got hit by a single 1% hitbox in the middle of Sheik's U-air), and while the Bomb can provide some protection, you're still quite vulnerable in your Zair state; and worse still, because you cancelled the airdodge with Zair, if you land during that Zair animation (which is very long) you will go through the airdodge landing lag.

I think this is about as far as labbing and theory will take it. We'll all need to actually try this out in some real games to get any real answers as to how good this is or not. In any case it's nice to have an alternative to airdodging that comes into effect on the same frame.


tl;dr- Airdodge can be used before all other options out of hitstun. Airdodge can also be cancelled with Z-drop and Bomb throw, making these two more options that can be used out of hitstun earlier than anything else. = Potential for combo breaking with airdodge cancelled z-drop.

A few days ago I just randomly thought that if we can airdodge zair, we might as well be able to instathrow the bomb downward for a better trade/situation. More tests?!

Also, when you airdodge zair you get more mobility to move around in my experience. So once you do it the best thing to do is to retreat backward so the sheik has to worry about the falling bomb and the zair hitbox if she wants to wait it out. Our best choice atm imo

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

A few days ago I just randomly thought that if we can airdodge zair, we might as well be able to instathrow the bomb downward for a better trade/situation. More tests?!

Also, when you airdodge zair you get more mobility to move around in my experience. So once you do it the best thing to do is to retreat backward so the sheik has to worry about the falling bomb and the zair hitbox if she wants to wait it out. Our best choice atm imo

Yes, in the post above I mentioned that the instant bomb throw is a possibility, however as a combo breaker I don't think it will help all that much. The d-throw in the air will explode on frame 7 at the earliest, which when used against a Sheik trying to D-throw to U-air you, won't help much; you'd be hit if the Sheik isn't sloppy with the execution.

As for the mobility thing, you're totally right. That is very interesting. So normally, you can't regain control of your mobility until hitstun wears off; airdodging, while it allows you to act before the usual hitstun time wears off, is actually detrimental to regaining your mobility. But when you cancel your airdodge with either a z-drop, Zair, or bomb throw, you not only cancel hitstun sooner but regain control of your mobility much sooner. This effect is obviously going to be more pronounced for Toon.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, in the post above I mentioned that the instant bomb throw is a possibility, however as a combo breaker I don't think it will help all that much. The d-throw in the air will explode on frame 7 at the earliest, which when used against a Sheik trying to D-throw to U-air you, won't help much; you'd be hit if the Sheik isn't sloppy with the execution.

As for the mobility thing, you're totally right. That is very interesting. So normally, you can't regain control of your mobility until hitstun wears off; airdodging, while it allows you to act before the usual hitstun time wears off, is actually detrimental to regaining your mobility. But when you cancel your airdodge with either a z-drop, Zair, or bomb throw, you not only cancel hitstun sooner but regain control of your mobility much sooner. This effect is obviously going to be more pronounced for Toon.

So today again I got out of sheiks 50/50 when k9 tried to uair me, i got hit with the first hit or 2 and the bomb traded before the move finished. I do feel like this is the true answer.


edit: wait wtf how'd i get in the link boards i thought this was the tl boards this whole time LOL

 

[Rizen]

edit: wait wtf how'd i get in the link boards i thought this was the tl boards this whole time LOL

Welcome to bad country pil-grim.

Seriously though, good work.

 

[Deleted member]

**** i've shared too many of my secrets to the wrong people


DIP

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

**** i've shared too many of my secrets to the wrong people

DIP

lmao. Well I did link you to both the Link and the Toon meta threads http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...o-critique-thread.368737/page-7#post-20022646 so I guess you just got them confused. I do own both after all.
Welcome to the abomination I have created, the fusion of that which nature and gods hath rightly set apart, and I am the unholy link between worlds.

I'll be seeing you around then Zan, one way or another.

 

[The Legendary Big Boss]

Hi guys, I believe I have a new technique for Link. It honestly does not seem like it would be new, but I have not seen any other Link players use the technique yet besides myself. Anyways the technique super simple and useful.

Simply: Ledge drop -> Mid air jump onto the stage -> Z-air while rising. Follow ups are possible.

The ledge drop zair gives us Link players another option for ledge play and can hit an opponent baiting a ledge drop sword strike.
The technique works because of the new ledge and tether mechanics in this game.

Here's a video showing its potential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFgzgKmGEZg

Hope this information is useful! Haha

 

[Catana]

Hi guys, I believe I have a new technique for Link. It honestly does not seem like it would be new, but I have not seen any other Link players use the technique yet besides myself. Anyways the technique super simple and useful.

Simply: Ledge drop -> Mid air jump onto the stage -> Z-air while rising. Follow ups are possible.

The ledge drop zair gives us Link players another option for ledge play and can hit an opponent baiting a ledge drop sword strike.
The technique works because of the new ledge and tether mechanics in this game.

Here's a video showing its potential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFgzgKmGEZg

Hope this information is useful! Haha

yeah, no.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hi guys, I believe I have a new technique for Link. It honestly does not seem like it would be new, but I have not seen any other Link players use the technique yet besides myself. Anyways the technique super simple and useful.

Simply: Ledge drop -> Mid air jump onto the stage -> Z-air while rising. Follow ups are possible.

The ledge drop zair gives us Link players another option for ledge play and can hit an opponent baiting a ledge drop sword strike.
The technique works because of the new ledge and tether mechanics in this game.

Here's a video showing its potential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFgzgKmGEZg

Hope this information is useful! Haha

Already well known. This was possible (and also well known) in brawl too by using Zair underneath/past the edge to avoid it becoming a tether.

 

[The Legendary Big Boss]

Alright, then could you guys tell me why is this technique not utilized more often? Is it not useful? Because I use it every now and again, and it almost always catches the opponent off guard. Your input is much appreciated.

 

[Catana]

Alright, then could you guys tell me why is this technique not utilized more often? Is it not useful? Because I use it every now and again, and it almost always catches the opponent off guard. Your input is much appreciated.

you play against scrubs.

 

[Lawz.]

Alright, then could you guys tell me why is this technique not utilized more often? Is it not useful? Because I use it every now and again, and it almost always catches the opponent off guard. Your input is much appreciated.

It's extremely predictable and isn't really that safe to begin with. The only way it works is if the opponent gives enough space required to do so, which should not be the case.

 

[Dumbfire]

Ledgehops are generally not that good this game because you lose invincibility the moment you drop from the ledge, and with a character like Link that is suicide. A downward angled Ganondorf Fsmash will kill Link at 0% if he catches a ledgehop -- Link won't make it back. When you do ledgehop, the question is between Fair and Zair usually. Fair has strong shield damage, good damage, and the gimmicky advantage that people might drop their shield for the second hit if they are unfamiliar with Link -- I've seen it happen a lot. Zair reaches a lot further which catches people off-guard, and if the opponent is very close to the ledge you'll land behind them -- often people will react wrong. But I don't recommend ledgehopping unless there's an opening for damage (then Fair) or when they underestimate the Zair distance.

If you do hit the Zair it's not over yet, because Zair has so little knockback. People often will try to rush to combo Zair into Grab but things like that are hardly guaranteed and if the opponent reads you right you may end up with the ledge situation being reset. I've also noticed lots of Links will expect someone to drop shield when they're standing on the ledge with Link hanging from it, and I'll just hold it only for the Link to ledgehop right into it. Ask Cat, I played some Links with her watching and showed it to her. Characters like Link are very susceptible to ledgetrapping and people really need to refine their ledge game.

Ledgehopping is to be used wisely and very sparingly. I can probably get you footage of someone doing Ledgehop zair though, if you really want it. I'm sure I've seen it.

 

[The Legendary Big Boss]

Ledgehops are generally not that good this game because you lose invincibility the moment you drop from the ledge, and with a character like Link that is suicide. A downward angled Ganondorf Fsmash will kill Link at 0% if he catches a ledgehop -- Link won't make it back. When you do ledgehop, the question is between Fair and Zair usually. Fair has strong shield damage, good damage, and the gimmicky advantage that people might drop their shield for the second hit if they are unfamiliar with Link -- I've seen it happen a lot. Zair reaches a lot further which catches people off-guard, and if the opponent is very close to the ledge you'll land behind them -- often people will react wrong. But I don't recommend ledgehopping unless there's an opening for damage (then Fair) or when they underestimate the Zair distance.

If you do hit the Zair it's not over yet, because Zair has so little knockback. People often will try to rush to combo Zair into Grab but things like that are hardly guaranteed and if the opponent reads you right you may end up with the ledge situation being reset. I've also noticed lots of Links will expect someone to drop shield when they're standing on the ledge with Link hanging from it, and I'll just hold it only for the Link to ledgehop right into it. Ask Cat, I played some Links with her watching and showed it to her. Characters like Link are very susceptible to ledgetrapping and people really need to refine their ledge game.

Ledgehopping is to be used wisely and very sparingly. I can probably get you footage of someone doing Ledgehop zair though, if you really want it. I'm sure I've seen it.

I do not need any video footage but thanks for the info Dumbfire!
I did usually hit my opponents with Z-air when they underestimated the distance. So if ledge hops are mostly unsafe, does Link have a best get up option from the ledge in this game? Or do you guys think it is dependent on too many variables such as positioning, match up, mind gaming, and/or percentages?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So if ledge hops are mostly unsafe, does Link have a best get up option from the ledge in this game? Or do you guys think it is dependent on too many variables such as positioning, match up, mind gaming, and/or percentages?

There are posts quoted in the OP of this thread that talk about this. (Second post, "Returning to the Stage From the Edge".)

 

[Sheik_Pwns]

So after alot of digging i have found my new love in Link so Hello my people i use the beige outfit link
OOHH CREAMY

 

[The Legendary Big Boss]

There are posts quoted in the OP of this thread that talk about this. (Second post, "Returning to the Stage From the Edge".)

Thank you Fox is Openly Deceptive! That information was very useful.

 

[link7]

So after alot of digging i have found my new love in Link so Hello my people i use the beige outfit link
OOHH CREAMY

That's great and all, but certainly not metagame thread material. Take it to the social please.

 

[Sheik_Pwns]

That's great and all, but certainly not metagame thread material. Take it to the social please.

yeah my bad

 

[ZSaberLink]

Question for folks. How safe is that first hit of Back Air on shield? Since it seems you can combo out of that, I'm curious what the frame lag is when hitting shield. I've seen the frame data thread, but maybe I'm missing something since I don't see the frame data when an attack hits a shield. Thanks in advance and hopefully this is the right thread for this.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Question for folks. How safe is that first hit of Back Air on shield? Since it seems you can combo out of that, I'm curious what the frame lag is when hitting shield. I've seen the frame data thread, but maybe I'm missing something since I don't see the frame data when an attack hits a shield. Thanks in advance and hopefully this is the right thread for this.

With no rage there's roughly 6 frames of shield hitlag (in which you are both frozen in place so it doesn't count) and then only like 1 frame of shield stun. This is to be expected because of how little damage it does (only 3% when fresh). So no, it's not safe on shield, unless your spacing is immaculate and the opponent doesn't have anything with good range OoS.

 

[Dumbfire]

Note for Links with this bad habit while on the subject: punishing things on the back of your shields (like first hit of Bair) with Utilt is a bad idea, turn-around Utilt is actually faster to give you an idea of how long the backhit takes to hit. Do turn around jab or Utilt / B-reversed JC Up B / Bair if you have that much time.

 

[ZSaberLink]

With no rage there's roughly 6 frames of shield hitlag (in which you are both frozen in place so it doesn't count) and then only like 1 frame of shield stun. This is to be expected because of how little damage it does (only 3% when fresh). So no, it's not safe on shield, unless your spacing is immaculate and the opponent doesn't have anything with good range OoS.

Aw, I see. I was hoping that at least could work as a mechanism to confirm a hit (like the old jab confirm) .

 

[Rizen]

I found that if Link throws a bomb and the opponent shields it Link can grab>Dthrow right after the bomb starts flashing on the ground and Link won't be launched/stunned by the explosion which allows the usual Dthrow followups. The timing is tight; you have to have Link preform the ground slam hit of Dthrow as his bomb explodes. This might work with other throws too but then the explosion only damages Link.
If Link grabs immediately after throwing the bomb he has plenty of time to throw and escape before it explodes.

Soft throwing bombs is a decent tactic to land grabs if you're not predictable about it.