DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
That's not really true either. Take a look at tether trumping in the AT thread.
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Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)
- Thread starter Fox Is Openly Deceptive
- Start date
No I mean after Link trumps none of the follow ups, like ledge-stall Bair, Dair etc are guaranteed since the opponent can DI.
Technically if the opponent buffers a ledge jump/attack/roll they can't be tether trumped too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR37CS30NAE
Just to clear a few things up:
The follow ups for trumps will obviously depend on your timing and whether or not the opponent does a ledge option. If you manage to time a trump very well and the opponent doesn't do a ledge option, technically it is possible to hit away from the ledge, DJ and Bair them before they can act at all.
If you do a well timed tether trump, it won't matter if the opponent buffers a ledge option because you would have immediately done a ledge stand up and you will be waiting there to punish their ledge option. So while they can't be tether trumped, the attempted tether trump will always work out in your favour even if the opponent does the optimal thing. That's what makes them so good. Anyway, it's all explained in greater detail in the AT thread.
The follow ups for trumps will obviously depend on your timing and whether or not the opponent does a ledge option. If you manage to time a trump very well and the opponent doesn't do a ledge option, technically it is possible to hit away from the ledge, DJ and Bair them before they can act at all.
If you do a well timed tether trump, it won't matter if the opponent buffers a ledge option because you would have immediately done a ledge stand up and you will be waiting there to punish their ledge option. So while they can't be tether trumped, the attempted tether trump will always work out in your favour even if the opponent does the optimal thing. That's what makes them so good. Anyway, it's all explained in greater detail in the AT thread.
DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
Back throw fake-out bombslide off of the stage into a tether trump/tether cancel, anyone? Better yet, back throw fake-out offstage into a B-reversed gale guard? I don't see why it wouldn't work. A back throw bombslide fake-out true combo into an aerial spin attack kill seems like it would be a real crowd pleaser as well.
Only, doing a bombslide back throw fake out, even at the very edge, won't make you slide off. So there's that.
That is very true, but you can use a SAFC to carry the momentum and slide off the stage. I've been playing around with this setup on off for little over a week, but I haven't arrived at anything fruitful yet. Mainly because it's difficult to do and I suck.
Ok, now we're talking. There are of course some major difficulties with this. If you're doing the back throw fake out, your timing has to be basically perfect otherwise you stop sliding by the time you can do a grounded Up-special. Also you need to space it perfectly, which is kind of ridiculous, otherwise you get the spin attack 2.0 or a normal grounded spin attack and leave yourself completely open. It is possible however, though it took me a while to get it. What you may be talking about perhaps is using the longer slide and/or shorter animation bombslides to make it easier and then SAFC slide off forwards. This is much more possible, but still suffers greatly from the above mentioned need to space properly. I'd say the biggest issue with this is the fact that you have to space it perfectly, but then the spacing gets completely messed up if you are off with your timing by 1 frame on either side. I personally don't think this is something that we should be trying to do. It's way to risky. The vast majority of the time you'll just be leaving yourself open to attack. If you want to immediately hop off the edge, why not just dash towards it immediately following the bombslide? Seriously though. Why complicate things? It's perfectly safe, very easy to do, and has the same effect.
Yeah the alternative is to dash to the edge, reverse short hop fast fall and then tether. Or something similar to that which is just a better option considering how easy and more reliable it is.
However, teh style man teh style!
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
Can't you slide off with the Uthrow one? I do that all the time. You won't be reversed, but you'll cover space above you while you go down low. I do it frequently since I've started moving around a lot with the Uthrow one -- it's very useful to have a bomb in the air so often.
Without doing anything else, you won't slide off. If you time and space a SAFC perfectly, yeah you'll slide off. Otherwise you must have been holding forwards just enough to make yourself slide/drop off on the FAF (which is done automatically if you're using the c-stick set to smash version as you can just continue to hold forwards the whole time).
Sabaca
Smash Apprentice
As i said in the quote , we got some Frame Data of Link avaible(Landing Lag; Landing Lag Window; Charged Smash Attacks; Dodges; Ledge Recovery; Common Actions; Throwing (Items); Tech) in those spreadsheets and later the complete and detailed frame data of Link will be added as well.Fox is Openly Deceptive said:
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DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
Huh. Makes me wish I could still lab, lol. The regular back throw bomb slide makes you slide off, so naturally I assumed the fake-out version did the same. I guess I'll need to practice it more then. It has a lot of potential since you can immediately go offstage backwards while getting some additional momentum, allowing Link to have an even better gimping game than he does already. Too bad he can't use the fake-out to slide off though, because not only is it infinitely easier to perform, but it might've been possible to true combo the bomb throw into a spin attack for a kill, which not only would connect pretty reliably, but would be fancy as hell.
No it doesn't.
8MAN
Smash Apprentice
So I was playing around online against a Rosa and managed to escape some of grabs with a returning Gale boomerang. So essentially it would somehow work like this, I would SH throw the Gale at a 30 degree ish angle, get grabbed (near the ledge), and the returning gale would pull Rosa off the stage, forcing a grab release.
However, I'm not sure if it's effectiveness varies from things like character traction, fall speed, and weight.
Edit: further testing is needed
However, I'm not sure if it's effectiveness varies from things like character traction, fall speed, and weight.
Edit: further testing is needed
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FierceGaiety
Smash Cadet
Godspeed and Do Work my friend.
Every boomerang throw goes the same horizontal distance no matter what angle you throw it. There are sort and hard throws (tilt and smash) that go different distances. Bouncing the boomerang off the stage can make it harder to avoid going out and easier for Link to avoid coming back. It hits higher than strait throws farther out too.
8MAN
Smash Apprentice
If you want to get an idea of the timing of which Link needs to be in hitstun for in order to let the Gale travel past him. Throw the boomerang, pull out a bomb, then down throw as the gale is returning.
That's the timing for which the gale needs to return before Link is thrown.
So examples of throws that have long start ups this would work on, would be:
Rosa's Back Throw
Ness's Back Throw
Mario's Back Throw
Mewtwo's Up Throw
Sadly this is too situational to be used effectively. Because it works only when Link is put into hitstun, you need to rely on stage positioning near the ledge, your opponent to throw you before the gale returns, and then the gale sweeping them off the stage as their throw animation is starting up. Making this too unreliable and unsafe to be consistently performed (if at all).
Edit: I did more testing and actually found another way Gale releasing could work.
So essentially there are two ways to perform it:
Both methods have to be near the ledge in order to work
>Grabber is closer to the ledge
>Link is closer to the ledge
As previously mentioned, if the grabber is closer to the ledge, the gale return has to be perfect in order to sweep them off the stage and force a grab release. Although very hard to perform, it puts Link in a good position to punish accordingly.
However if Link is closer to the ledge, the gale's windbox will come in contact with the grabber first, pulling them forward off the stage and forcing a grab release. This method is much easier to do, because as long as the gale doesn't come in contact with Link first, the windbox will be intact. But it will always result in Link being pulled offstage, which will result in loss of stage control, as well as putting Link at a disadvantageous position against characters with good off-stage games.
That's the timing for which the gale needs to return before Link is thrown.
So examples of throws that have long start ups this would work on, would be:
Rosa's Back Throw
Ness's Back Throw
Mario's Back Throw
Mewtwo's Up Throw
Sadly this is too situational to be used effectively. Because it works only when Link is put into hitstun, you need to rely on stage positioning near the ledge, your opponent to throw you before the gale returns, and then the gale sweeping them off the stage as their throw animation is starting up. Making this too unreliable and unsafe to be consistently performed (if at all).
Edit: I did more testing and actually found another way Gale releasing could work.
So essentially there are two ways to perform it:
Both methods have to be near the ledge in order to work
>Grabber is closer to the ledge
>Link is closer to the ledge
As previously mentioned, if the grabber is closer to the ledge, the gale return has to be perfect in order to sweep them off the stage and force a grab release. Although very hard to perform, it puts Link in a good position to punish accordingly.
However if Link is closer to the ledge, the gale's windbox will come in contact with the grabber first, pulling them forward off the stage and forcing a grab release. This method is much easier to do, because as long as the gale doesn't come in contact with Link first, the windbox will be intact. But it will always result in Link being pulled offstage, which will result in loss of stage control, as well as putting Link at a disadvantageous position against characters with good off-stage games.
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Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
It seems there's a lot you can do with the wind hitbox of the Gale boomerang, but I don't really understand it that well yet. Some demonstration/video would be in order -- it has been curiously left out of most tutorials &c. so far.
FierceGaiety
Smash Cadet
I've been trying to find some reason to use the gale boomerang over the custom 2 boomerang but I'm not finding much. The windbox seems to start just before it starts coming back toward you and I've gimped a few dumb Ness players trying to PK thunder me from near the edge and thats really all I've got. I always try to do cool 'pull the enemy toward me while I charge an upB' type stuff but it works so rarely that I'm almost always better off pulling out a bomb in that time instead.
The custom boomerang 2 outclasses the gale boomerang. But as the default the gale Brang has it's benefits. It can surprise gimp certain rush attacks like Mac's forward B, Marth's Dancing blade, etc and free fall moves like MK's loop, Din's fire, Ness' PK flash/thunder etc. It breaks grabs if you're close enough to the ledge. Gale guards bad recoveries. And it is completely safe on reflectors.
ChainArmour712
Smash Cadet
I was fighting a cpu Marth on the 3DS and close to the ledge I hit him with a Spin attack; for some reason he had the red sparks of a super effective moved and was knocked out. Puzzled as to how I got the ko at low damage, I went to Training Mode and went back to Omega Gaur Plain, vs. Marth at 95%.
I wasn't able to replicate what had happened, but through playing around with the Spin Attack I was able to notice something important: The damage and knockback of Spin Attack depends on Link's distance from the opponent.
Against Marth at 95%, hitting him with frontal Spin Attack when Link's shield was about a foot or less from Marth consistently gave me the strongest form of the move, 14% damage with the most knockback. The move has about a three foot range, and within the most of the rest of that range frontal spin attack will be worth 9% damage with less knockback. Marth was surviving hits from the 9% range move that would have koed him at the close distance. Just beyond 9% for about the last foot of effective range, I was getting a 7% damage hit with a slightly delayed connection. At the absolute edge of the move's range, a hitbox would land a delayed hit of 5% damage.
The moral of this is that according to my observations Link needs to be at or within the first foot of Spin Attack's range for it to land maximum knockback and damage. This is slightly disappointing for me, as I loved the move in melee and its range was already seemingly cut and not it seems damage too according to distance. This being said, I think given its buffs Spin Attack still has some uses and will remain a part of my frequent move inventory for Link.
If this has been mentioned before, I apologize for the redundancy but I didn't see it anywhere beforehand. Given Spin Attack was buffed even though Link suffered a huge nerf, I feel we should familiarize ourselves with his full command set including Spin Attack.
I wasn't able to replicate what had happened, but through playing around with the Spin Attack I was able to notice something important: The damage and knockback of Spin Attack depends on Link's distance from the opponent.
Against Marth at 95%, hitting him with frontal Spin Attack when Link's shield was about a foot or less from Marth consistently gave me the strongest form of the move, 14% damage with the most knockback. The move has about a three foot range, and within the most of the rest of that range frontal spin attack will be worth 9% damage with less knockback. Marth was surviving hits from the 9% range move that would have koed him at the close distance. Just beyond 9% for about the last foot of effective range, I was getting a 7% damage hit with a slightly delayed connection. At the absolute edge of the move's range, a hitbox would land a delayed hit of 5% damage.
The moral of this is that according to my observations Link needs to be at or within the first foot of Spin Attack's range for it to land maximum knockback and damage. This is slightly disappointing for me, as I loved the move in melee and its range was already seemingly cut and not it seems damage too according to distance. This being said, I think given its buffs Spin Attack still has some uses and will remain a part of my frequent move inventory for Link.
If this has been mentioned before, I apologize for the redundancy but I didn't see it anywhere beforehand. Given Spin Attack was buffed even though Link suffered a huge nerf, I feel we should familiarize ourselves with his full command set including Spin Attack.
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8MAN
Smash Apprentice
I feel like if the Gale Boomerang was tweaked just a little, then it would ve a worthy contender for the side special. For example, if the windbox was stronger, it could probably break grabs from center stage of FD.
Also if the Gale Boomerang windbox were to pull in shielded enemies, it would make probably give Link the option of catching/trapping faster characters.
Finally, if the was a way to prevent Link from catching the Gale, such as inputting a spot dodge, shield, etc., then it would add so much more to the Gale AT.
But that's just wishful thinking on my part...
Anyhow, it's still a pretty decent move, as Rizen has already elaborated on.
It's probably the only reflector safe move in the game (correct me if I'm wrong, as Yoshi's egg throw might be reflector safe too).
Zelkam
Resident Wizard
I looked into this and it appears that you're both correct and incorrect. Before I get into it, let me explain one thing first. Spin Attack has damage fall off as the move goes on. So the first 5 frames will deal the most damage, the next 12 will be less, and the final 16 will do the least. Now that we're all up to speed, lets continue.
Its definitely true that spin attack does less damage and knockback at max range. Hitting an opponent at max range with the initial hit will do 9% and have less knockback. Hitting pretty much anywhere inside max range will give you the full 14%. The same can be said about the next two stages of the attack. So max range on the second stage will deal 7% and inside that will deal 9%. Max range on the third stage will deal 5% and inside that will deal 7%. It appears that the second stage of spin attack has a tad bit more range than the initial hit so that explains why you were getting a small delay and then a 7% hit.
For the record, I don't think this has been mentioned before so no need to apologize.
We already knew this but here's a good video for explaining DI and Vectoring:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnqgfP7vrTs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnqgfP7vrTs
Zelkam
Resident Wizard
While Rizen has us on the topic of DI, here's one thing I've been meaning to ask and have never got around to it. Now that momentum canceling is no longer a thing, is using an aerial to regain control of our character still the best option?
I'm just gonna say no based on nothing. Or based on a reason like an aerial might extend your hurtbox to hit the blastzone. We need some testing on this though so go ahead Zelkam!
DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
Yes it does lol. I've tested this myself, unless they've patched it somehow, which I doubt. Link slides off of the ledge. I'm not even kidding.
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I tried it from different distances on both sides of FD and was never able to make it work. If anyone would like to provide footage or if we could have some second opinions here, that'd be great. If it does work, it's either very specific or something else is required, because putting the joystick back to neutral and letting the backwards slide do it's own thing always had me stopping at the edge. I don't know what else to say.
kxiong92
Smash Journeyman
So I was practicing follow ups for Link's first hit of bair. I was able to connect the front of UpB after the the first hit of bair. I tried multiple times and got the same result of it comboing. The combo counter registered both of the hits.
Edit:
After further testing, I was able to get it to work against Mario and Kirby. It doesn't work against fast fallers like Fox at all.
Edit:
After further testing, I was able to get it to work against Mario and Kirby. It doesn't work against fast fallers like Fox at all.
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8MAN
Smash Apprentice
Although drop kick bair to spin attack is an option, drop kick bair to u-tilt is more useful because you can act out of it quicker, meaning you can follow up more easily.
Also, don't double post.
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kxiong92
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, u-tilt after drop kick is more useful. But I was thinking of drop kick bair to UpB as a kill option.
8MAN
Smash Apprentice
That can work, however you have to take in factors such as stage positioning and which way you're spin attacking, as the front hit can kill at 130ish percents while the back hit was nerfed to kill at about 170 percent.
This is totally legit btw. It would seem that due to the slight speed buffs to the grounded Up-special, dropkick to turn around Up-special is now a true combo.
Oh, and you were concerned with it not working on Fox right? Well ignore the combo counter in his case. It's a true combo on him too if you buffer the turn around Up-special (by hitting diagonally up (more towards the up) special once you land). He just gets out of hitstun by landing, but see, he's then stuck in landing lag and cannot shield in time (again, if buffered properly), and so for all intents and purposes, it's a true combo.
kxiong92
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, buffering the turn around UpB is hard. I want to assume that it works for all characters. But I think it needs to be tested on other characters as well.
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You'd really just need to check the extreme cases. E.g. Jiggs, Samus, Fox, Bowser (edit: perhaps Ganon would be better for representing the heavy weight fast fallers), then like DH trying to use a Can to interrupt you and Marth using Up-special to escape, then there are those like Greninja that technically nothing works on due to being able to Shadow Sneak while in hitstun.
Keep in mind that the spin attack will be killing much earlier if used closer to the edge of the stage. Also for the present moment we don't care about the back hit.
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kxiong92
Smash Journeyman
I'll try to test some more this week.
DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
Does first hit bair > turn around Dsmash work? I'm not sure how much better a kill move it is that spin attack though. I'm not able to lab as I can't even play the game.
Edit: I can guarantee that edge cancel Z-drop/any sort of Zairless Z-drop > dropkick catch/IZAC (best method) is legit though. However, the reason why you would want to do this instead of just catching a planted bomb off the ground is pretty simple. More mobility and speed. Why would you try this with a planted bomb if you know the opponent will try to stay away from them? It's also pretty bound to get telagraphed at some point to where it almost never works. It's a way clunkier and less effective way to dropkick with bombs.
Edit: I can guarantee that edge cancel Z-drop/any sort of Zairless Z-drop > dropkick catch/IZAC (best method) is legit though. However, the reason why you would want to do this instead of just catching a planted bomb off the ground is pretty simple. More mobility and speed. Why would you try this with a planted bomb if you know the opponent will try to stay away from them? It's also pretty bound to get telagraphed at some point to where it almost never works. It's a way clunkier and less effective way to dropkick with bombs.
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The front hit of the Spin attack hits on frame 8 now according to the patch notes, and it only barely registers as a true combo if buffered properly. U-tilt also hits on frame 8 but you need to make a separate input for the turn around (unlike the Up-special), so that sets you back a frame at the very least and that's if you're absolutely perfect with the timing of the U-tilt, and yet I believe that this is just enough to make it not a true combo (more thorough testing is required, but I looked into this a while ago). Regardless of this, I am a firm believer in the use of turn around U-tilt after a dropkick simply because it is (practically speaking) still very guaranteed due to it's large area of coverage to hit any buffered DJ's. D-smash hits on frame 9 and you of course have to turn around separately just like U-tilt. It also doesn't hit as high, so there's little chance of it catching double jumps unlike the U-tilt. It's a shame because from memory, in Brawl it was a true combo. That's not to say that it won't work now, it's just much less guaranteed if the opponent reacts. So the answer is it depends on the opponent and to some extent on the opponent's character.